Cosmere Beef

[Jofwu]

In the spirit of Beefcast, I thought it would be fun to start a Cosmere Beefs thread. Thought it might be fun to rant about our biggest complaints.

Preferably focus on your biggest beef(s) rather than just giving a list.

And while it's fine to make some minor comments on what somebody said, I think it would be best to upvote if you agree or just let it go if you don't. No need to defend yourself or get into an argument with somebody. Just a safe space to share your beef.

[Calderis]

Raoden. 

Over the course of Elantris, Raoden as a character does not grow. He gains abilities and political strengths, but at the end he is fundamentally still the same guy who woke up in that bedroom after being taken by the Shaod. 

The events of Elantris happen to Raoden and he reacts. He has his internal doubts, but he is constantly outwardly confident and competent to a flawless degree. 

Contrasted by Hrathen in the same story... He's just such a static character that it almost ruined the book for me. 

He's not Zane, don't get me wrong, but as one of the primary focuses of the book he was very difficult for me to push through. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Calderis

[Nathrangking]

To discuss Elantris for just a moment I must say that the pacing was simply too slow. It took me three times of actually starting the book to read it through. I was bored by the pace. It takes too long to pick up in pace. If this were the first cosmere novel that I had read I would have never have thought to read another. It very nearly killed Brandon for me.

[teknopathetic]

100% agreed that Zane in the worst character in the Cosmere.

 

 

[Jofwu]

I'm totally on board with Zane and his "romance" with Vin being Most Terrible.

But I have to take some shots at Elend, because I really don't care for him--especially in the first book. Too much whiny rich kid for me, in Final Empire. I get that he's not directly in a position of power, but he could at least be preparing for the day that his generation can make a difference in the world. Earning respect. Networking. Researching. Planning... But no, he prefers to spend his time finding new ways to annoy his father, or running a book club with his other rich buddies. These things are pretty much all he does.

Plus there was that line to Kelsier in Secret History, "Try to keep up, kid." Never have I ever wanted to see Kelsier punch someone more than in that moment.

[RShara]

"Atium is like a mini-black hole."

 

[Pagerunner]

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lift

[Toaster Retribution]

Amaram. 

I am probably his biggest fan, and it bothers me so that Brandon could have added huge complexity and depth to both him and the story by adding one simple scene: one where Odium tells him the truth of the Heralds and he breaks and sideswitches from guilt. It would have made more people understand him, and add tragedy to his death, and his confrontation with Kaladin. I feel like Amaram had great potential to be a fantastic character, but Brandon chose to prioritize otherwise. 

[Morsk]

I never liked Brandon turning Elend into an action hero. I suppose it's because the events of Mistborn-3 are so world-altering that only an action hero could be at the center of them for the story, but I just don't like Elend having to be changed to fit this. Now any time Brandon makes a male protagonist that can fly, I think "Oh, Elend again. Why do they all need to be able to fly?"

[+Sorana]

I really liked Shallan at the beginning of wok, but during wor I found it sometimes really hard to read through her chapters. In OB this whole love triangle stuff was annoying but at least she chose one of them. I really hope she will get better and stay with Adolin and this part of is over.

[goody153]

Like i said on the comments of the CosmereBeef cast or complaincast. 

Kelsier's revival was a huge mistake and that it undermined to many many things including the insanely impactful and meaningful event of his death.

More would be:

Lift isn't as fun as she portrayed. Not really sold on her.

Shallan and Kaladin during the chasm was unnatural like really cringy at times.

Mr. T's development is not good. He just looks like a cartoon villain sidekick now from an intriguing character.

Odium lost his edge since Oathbringer. He used to invoke feelings of dread and inevitability etc. Now he's just another Dark Lord.  Really big downgrade from how ominous and freaky he was hinted during the first two books. That probably needs to change.

Edited July 20, 2018 by goody153

[Toaster Retribution]

I have more beefs: 

*Jasnah: I have recently discussed this an another thread, but she is good at everything, admired by everyone, and seems to lack any form of weakness that actually impacts her role in the story. Plus, I think someone needs to take her down a couple of pegs. She is far too bossy. 

*I agree with everyone who disliked Zane. I think @Chaos is wrong though: The Watcher is a super-cool name. I wish it had been attatched to a cooler character. 

*Spook suddenly getting to be in charge of everyone, without any experience at all, bothers me. 

*Warbreaker as a whole is somewhat boring. It has great parts, but on the whole it is Brandons weakest work, I think. Blushweaver really annoyed me, and Bluefingers is probably Brandons worst villain. 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

18 hours ago, Jofwu said:

but he could at least be preparing for the day that his generation can make a difference in the world. Earning respect. Networking. Researching. Planning... But no, he prefers to spend his time finding new ways to annoy his father, or running a book club with his other rich buddies. These things are pretty much all he does.

I always interpreted that as Elend's intentions with his "book club".  They thought they were networking, planning and researching.  They seemed to want to make a difference (or at least Elend did). It just seems like they got really caught up in the "not like our fathers" aspect and didn't pay attention to the practical nature of what the leaders were doing.  They were naive visionaries; but I don't think the point was to just sit around in a book club; they were making plans for when they came into power.

Between each of the books in Era 1 though, you see Elend lose the optimism and become an actual leader.  I think he was supposed to be the over-optimistic visionary; and the story showed how coming up with good sounding plans isn't sufficient to rule.

[Bigmikey357]

Elend in MFE was Elkohar with a worse father and no real paranoia. A son with an expectation of future rule. While Elkohar tries to be as great as his father, Elend tries to be better. Both realize that being in the driver's seat is different than waiting in the wings. Elend got a chance to learn from his mistakes, Elkohar did not.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

I'm going to copy/paste my comment on the podcast if that's alright:

Great podcast, there were some high quality cuts of beef. Zane is my least favourite character Brandon has ever written and I fist pumped the air when he died. I just can't agree with Matt's take on Taln though. Everything I've seen and heard about Taln makes me excited for when he gets more involved later on. He is actually Brandon's favourite character as well so it comes as no surprise when he is one of the most beloved characters with only a few pages of screen time.

I get the beef with Kelsier returning but I absolutely loved that. Kelsier is an egotistical megalomaniac who didn't believe in an afterlife and still may not believe in an afterlife even after having seen the actors behind the curtains. I think it's perfectly in character for him to reject a conclusion to his own life story to pursue his own ends. It would feel unrealistic to me if Kelsier turned around at the end of Secret History and was like 'You know what, I'm a changed man and I'm going to reunite with my loved ones in the Beyond. I can finally be at rest'. Also, on the note of Kelsier beef, I do wonder if Kelsier requesting that Spook be made into a Mistborn was early grooming to more easily manipulate Spook into performing Hemallurgy experiments. Maybe Spook doesn't quite deserve as much stick after all. I personally dislike wish fulfilment in literature so I'm on the fence with Spook.

My biggest beef personally is with Shallan and it is for many of the reasons listed in the podcast. She sees herself as better than almost everyone around her and treats her 'inferiors' with a complete and utter lack of respect. The boots scene in WoR and the bookshop scene in WoK are two examples of her abusing the powers afforded by her privilege over some seriously underprivileged characters.

She also makes quite a few remarks about Adolin and his supposed stupidity simply because he lacks a scholarly background. Adolin is incredibly emotionally intelligent to the point where he is able to recognise and lift Kaladin out of his depressive slump in Shadesmar and is able to manipulate Ialai to deflect blame off Dalinar, yet Shallan mentally admonishes him for being dumb.

Shallan's treatment towards Adolin and Kaladin in OB is slightly unfair at best to completely inconsiderate and bullying at worst. She marries Adolin while being involved in an organisation that tried to kill his Aunt. Adolin knows nothing about her involvement with the Ghostbloods or her parent killing past as Shallan has chosen to hide those aspects of her past, not stopping to consider what that might do to those around her when she must confront her past. 

Her treatment towards Kaladin throughout most of OB is one sided and mean spirited. She goads Kaladin in Shadesmar for brooding despite Kaladin being close to non functioning due to a depressive episode. She Lightweaves a disgusting face onto Kaladin for no particular reason. She dismisses Veil's attraction towards Kaladin as having bad taste in men. All of this occurs with no prompting whatsoever from Kaladin's end. It appears to me that Shallan was attempting to demonise Kaladin in her own mind but if this is not the case then it highlights some serious issues she has in regards to classism and a superiority complex.

[recneps]

I've a few major ones:

Physics errors. This isn't the kind of thing I normally notice and complain about in Fantasy, except the one thing Brandon Sanderson does best is action scenes, and he has a solid reputation for well thought-out systems. There are many times throughout Mistborn where the physics are just, plain and simply, wrong. I find that it can ruin an entire scene for me.

'Mary Sues.' Kaladin and Vin both are essentially perfect. Their only problems and deficiencies are mental. They are very capable warriors - far beyond anyone else, with little explanation as to why. They're very attractive physically. Vin succeeds at literally everything she tries, including her 'scholarship' and research, to the point where it's mentioned what beautiful handwriting she has. Essentially, despite the fact that they're fun to read, I have a hard time appreciating them as characters. They're perfect, except for what amounts to generic pubescent mental/emotional struggles.

Kelsier's Treatment. Kelsier was the character which hooked me on Brandon Sanderson. I read Mistborn because his chapter at the start set him up as a very interesting character. His death was unexpected, but a good move. What I disliked, however, is the constant forced comparisons throughout the other two books between what's happening and Kelsier, and explaining how Kelsier really wasn't so great after all. They got very tiresome; it felt like I was being punished for liking Kelsier.

Shallan's intellectualism. It felt very forced, and quite annoyed me. Sigzil felt like a much better standard for an intellectual Archive character, despite being a more minor character. She felt like a humorous caricature.

[MountainKing]

Well Kaladin has good reason to be good at everything he does. He a great medic because he trained most of his childhood, he can read glyphs because he's a medic, he can fight because he trained for most of his adulthood and part of his childhood, and he was a captain in the army, not only that but most of his flaws are countered by Sylvia telling him not to do it. He really hasn't done anything in the books that he hasn't done in his backstory besides windrunning, but the Nahel Bond helps with that.

[StrikerEZ]

4 hours ago, recneps said:

'Mary Sues.' Kaladin and Vin both are essentially perfect. Their only problems and deficiencies are mental. They are very capable warriors - far beyond anyone else, with little explanation as to why. They're very attractive physically. Vin succeeds at literally everything she tries, including her 'scholarship' and research, to the point where it's mentioned what beautiful handwriting she has. Essentially, despite the fact that they're fun to read, I have a hard time appreciating them as characters. They're perfect, except for what amounts to generic pubescent mental/emotional struggles.

I'm kind of tired right now, so I'm sorry if this reads as very aggressive and/or mean.

I can kind of agree with a lot of what you said here. I would like to point out though that Kaladin has been described as not super attractive, but not really ugly either. I can't remember if Vin was physically attractive, but I'm not sure why physical qualities like that affect how you feel about a character. 

The main thing, however, I have to disagree on is Kaladin's mental problems. In no way, shape, or form is that "generic pubescent mental/emotional struggles." First of all, the poor guy has gone through tons of crap. He saw so many storming people die, including his own brother. That will mess you up, plus he's got depression. He isn't just some mopey teenager (and by the present day he's already an adult), he has actual tendencies of someone who is depressed. Just because he doesn't have very many extrnal struggles (which isn't really true, considering he had bridge four, Elhokar assassination plot, and plenty of stuff in OB) does not make him perfect. He constantly struggles with his internal conflicts, which tend to personally be my favorite types of conflicts.

[Confused]

Here’s my beef: Brandon’s inconsistency about thermodynamics. I’ve talked about this for years. He exalts unifying cosmere laws in which thermodynamics figures prominently. Yet he makes the cosmere a perpetual motion machine in violation of those laws. If matter and energy can truly convert back into the powers of creation (raw Spiritual Realm Investiture), then the cosmere will never run out of energy, and entropy can decrease as well as increase. It’s a major flaw that IMO undermines the cosmere’s construction.

I hope the cosmere’s “fourth” thermodynamic law (about Adonalsium) will save us from the perpetual cosmere. Investiture, energy, and matter should not be able to convert back into the powers of creation. Those powers are Adonalsium’s Spiritual Realm corpse. Once raw magic’s gone, it should be gone forever, converted into some other form of matter, energy or Investiture.

But I’ve beaten that drum so long, I'm now deaf…

[tmnsquirtle]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:08 PM, recneps said:

'Mary Sues.' Kaladin and Vin both are essentially perfect. Their only problems and deficiencies are mental. They are very capable warriors - far beyond anyone else, with little explanation as to why. They're very attractive physically. Vin succeeds at literally everything she tries, including her 'scholarship' and research, to the point where it's mentioned what beautiful handwriting she has. Essentially, despite the fact that they're fun to read, I have a hard time appreciating them as characters. They're perfect, except for what amounts to generic pubescent mental/emotional struggles.

I would definitely argue that MOST "problems and deficiencies" in books are mental. How many main characters are physically disabled? Not a ton - the flaws in their character more often comes down to their morals or beliefs conflicting with the world they live in.

[Orlion Blight]

On 7/20/2018 at 2:47 AM, goody153 said:

Odium lost his edge since Oathbringer. He used to invoke feelings of dread and inevitability etc. Now he's just another Dark Lord.  Really big downgrade from how ominous and freaky he was hinted during the first two books. That probably needs to change.

Absolutely. Less is more in the case of Odium, and he just talked and schemed waaay too much in Oathbringer. He essentially became a cheesier, more incompetent version of Lord Foul the Despiser.

[goody153]

4 hours ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

Absolutely. Less is more in the case of Odium, and he just talked and schemed waaay too much in Oathbringer. He essentially became a cheesier, more incompetent version of Lord Foul the Despiser.

Which is weird cause before Oathbringer he actually had the dread factor and seemed extremely competent from the shadows. Which was unique but completely lost it around the 3rd book because of him being personified.

I think he showed up too soon combined with him trying to Dalinar Kholin to Darth Dalinar and failing at it. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by goody153

[+Child of Hodor]

One beef I have is how Shallan's food supply subplot in Kholinar in OB is a recycling of Sarene's food supply subplot in Elantris. Both involve:

• A city blocked off from the outside world, people can't leave and supplies are scarce.
• A young noblewoman visiting from a foreign land.
• Young noblewoman wants to help ease the suffering in the city, so she regularly delivers bags of food.
• Young noblewoman doesn't know about violent gangs that swoop in, brutalize the people she gives the food to and take the food as soon as she is gone. 
• Young noblewoman is resented by the people she is trying to help because she is causing more violence by delivering the food. 

It felt like the author needed Shallan to fail at something so that Hoid could give her a pep talk and recycled a subplot from an earlier book. 

[Singer]

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

One beef I have is how Shallan's food supply subplot in Kholinar in OB is a recycling of Sarene's food supply subplot in Elantris.

That's true, but it could also be a retelling of the real world example of people trying to send stuff to assist in disaster relief and "needy" countries when that isn't really what people need. It ends up causing huge problems and undermining real relief efforts and local economic growth. It is the same plot both times, but it is representative of how people try to help but are pretty ineffective at it.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Singer

[+Child of Hodor]

1 minute ago, Singer said:

That's true, but it could also be a retelling of the real world example of people trying to send stuff to assist in disaster relief and "needy" countries when that isn't really what people need and it ends up causing huge problems and undermining real relief efforts and local economic growth. It is the same plot both times, but it is pretty representative of how people try to help but are pretty ineffective at it.

For sure, and as a former missionary it may be something Brandon feels very strongly about and has a personal connection to. It's just so beat for beat the same that it bugs me. She could have failed trying to do something slightly different.  

I feel like Raoden giving people purpose cleaning the city so that they stop laying around feeling terrible and Kaladin making his bridgemen practice to keep them from falling into despair are similar ideas, but they are executed differently enough it doesn't bother me at all.