[OB] Urithiru and the Sibling

[DracostarA]

I think a popular theory is that the Sibling was the spren used to power Urithiru and make it function as a city. However, we also know that Urithiru was built and designed by Radiants, so before its construction the Sibling Bondsmith would still have existed, just not have been required to power the city. We know the Stormfather and Nightwatcher have a range of abilities on their own, as well as their purpose on Roshar. What else do you think the Sibling was capable of before its use as Urithiru's spren?

[Calderis he/him]

I'm not sure I agree on the "designed and built by Radiants" part. I'm not sure of anything when it comes to Urithiru or the sibling. 

[DracostarA]

Quote

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

From TWoK epigraphs.

It may have been to far to mention 'by Radiants', but clearly it was built at one point, and since it mentions Alethela, I believe that means this is after mankind became dominant on Roshar. So if Urithiru was built, clearly it was designed to be powered by a powerful spren, but what were the spren's capabilities before its building is what I wonder?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

We probably won't be able to properly speculate until we actually meet the Sibling in text. We do know it was a Mega Spren and so can maintain sapience without benefit of a bond. We know that it must have served a function outside the Knights Radient hierarchy, like Stormfather/Nightwatcher. A wild chull guess? The Spren of Stone that Szeth speaks of.

[Kaladin Zahel]

I agree with BigMikey that the Sibling is the stone spren in some manner. 

The biggest holes we have in the story are Urithiru's origin, the Shin's god, the Shattered Plains', Amia's destruction and along with these, the Sibling itself.

[DracostarA]

If the Sibling is the Spren of Stone, which I think is plausible, perhaps it could link to the Horneater Peaks mythology. The three 'Gods' mentioned may be the Godspren:

God of Forests : Nightwatcher

God of Waters : Stormfather (tentative, since this god was responsible for the lakes on the Peaks, which Stormfather could have achieved through rain)

God of Mountains : Sibling, if responsible for the Stone.

*Sidenote: Perhaps the Sibling could be the Spren of Roshar itself, a spren of Adonalsium altered by the presence of Honor/Cultivation?

[ScavellTane]

My crazy theory:

The Sibling is joined together with Ba-Ado-Mishram inside the gemstone prison.

Its why we don't get a proper name/gender for it. Its nature is changed.

The Stormfather put it in the godspren category because it now bears Odiums investiture.

BAMs new found ability to make Connections probably caused problems when Melishi went to capture it.

 

This has a minor connection to my theory that previous bondsmith spren were not godspren but the 'Dawnshard' aka Adonalsium greatspren.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I think the Sibling is meant to be outside the traditional binary genders, thus the use of "they" pronouns.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think the Sibling is meant to be outside the traditional binary genders, thus the use of "they" pronouns.

It definitely is. @WireSegal got this awesome WoB recently that heavily implies the Sibling is non-binary

Quote

wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

source

 

[ScavellTane]

Could be, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it also refers to 'two'.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Could be, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it also refers to 'two'.

I think it's much more likely that the Sibling being referred to by they/them means it's non-binary. It's called the Sibling, not the Siblings, for a reason. Plus, that WoB @Calderis quoted seems highly suggestive to me. What other important spren could we be meeting soon?

[Wandering Investor]

Ooo that's an interesting WoB. I was starting to think maybe the sibling represented the land, which is personified in a lot of different ways, and thus the personality of the siblings could be changing depending on where it was, or maybe the sibling could be in multiple places, hence 'they' even though it is all one entity. But a non-binary spren has the potential to be interesting. I'm curious how Brandon will write it.

[Quantus he/him]

So by the Epigraph text is sure sounds to me like they are calling Urithiru "the place nearest to Honor.”

 

I find that very interesting.  I have been trying to apply my professional experience to Urithiru (short version is that I design heavy industrial factories) and the base design point that I keep coming back to is "Why There?".  All Factories are where they are for specific reasons: either it's being built near the natural resources it needs (raw materials, transportation, and/or water are most common for industry), it's being built to AVOID something (climate&weather, political/economic concerns, etc), or it's being built right on top of some other pre-existing Site/System.   There are no obvious geographic benefits (other than riding above the Storm, which aint nothing), and nothing specific about the site for Raw Materials, unless there's more to it on the Shadesmar side, or some other Stormlight/Investiture. 

 

So that's what I keep coming back to: that there must be something about that site specifically that made it the best choice for this city-sized Spren-machine, either on the side of its upstream needs (Fuel) or its downstream needs (Function).  And somewhere right in the middle of all that sits the Sibling...

[ScavellTane]

18 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think it's much more likely that the Sibling being referred to by they/them means it's non-binary. It's called the Sibling, not the Siblings, for a reason. Plus, that WoB @Calderis quoted seems highly suggestive to me. What other important spren could we be meeting soon?

We call it 'the' Sibling, there isnt really a 'the' reference in the book.

 

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

So by the Epigraph text is sure sounds to me like they are calling Urithiru "the place nearest to Honor.”

 

I find that very interesting.  I have been trying to apply my professional experience to Urithiru (short version is that I design heavy industrial factories) and the base design point that I keep coming back to is "Why There?".  All Factories are where they are for specific reasons: either it's being built near the natural resources it needs (raw materials, transportation, and/or water are most common for industry), it's being built to AVOID something (climate&weather, political/economic concerns, etc), or it's being built right on top of some other pre-existing Site/System.   There are no obvious geographic benefits (other than riding above the Storm, which aint nothing), and nothing specific about the site for Raw Materials, unless there's more to it on the Shadesmar side, or some other Stormlight/Investiture. 

 

So that's what I keep coming back to: that there must be something about that site specifically that made it the best choice for this city-sized Spren-machine, either on the side of its upstream needs (Fuel) or its downstream needs (Function).  And somewhere right in the middle of all that sits the Sibling...

I always thought that it meant Honors perpendicularity before it was merged with the Stormfather.

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

We call it 'the' Sibling, there isnt really a 'the' reference in the book.

Both epigraphs that reference "the Sibling" disagree. 

Quote

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.
—From drawer 1-1, first zircon

Quote

Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue.
—From drawer 1-1, third zircon

 

[ScavellTane]

Yeah, I just found that. Gosh darn it, was trying to edit my response.

What I find weird is the use of the term 'Sibling', why don't they just use its name?

Edited July 10, 2018 by ScavellTane

[StrikerEZ he/him]

50 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Yeah, I just found that. Gosh darn it, was trying to edit my response.

What I find weird is the use of the term 'Sibling', why don't they just use its name?

I've always assumed that is its name. Otherwise, they would call it by its name. 

[ScavellTane]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

I've always assumed that is its name. Otherwise, they would call it by its name. 

You wouldn't prefix a name with 'the'. 

Although, the epigraph Sibling could be referring to the Stormfather and the Stormfather himself may refer to another.

Edited July 10, 2018 by ScavellTane

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

20 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

I agree with BigMikey that the Sibling is the stone spren in some manner. 

The biggest holes we have in the story are Urithiru's origin, the Shin's god, the Shattered Plains', Amia's destruction and along with these, the Sibling itself.

I have never considered this before, however I am rereading WoR. A curiosity I discovered is that Szeth had been to Urithiru when he first became truthless. He went there again around the time he first encountered Kaladin . He said it was the only place the stone was not cursed. Could this be a clue that the Stone Spren is the Sibling?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, ScavellTane said:

You wouldn't prefix a name with 'the'.

Well, there's the Lopen.

But I get what you mean. I personally think we don't know enough about the Sibling to even guess at anything about it yet. 

[CalaCrisp88]

11 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

You wouldn't prefix a name with 'the'. 

Although, the epigraph Sibling could be referring to the Stormfather and the Stormfather himself may refer to another.

I mean, you do call him THE Stormfather.

Edited July 10, 2018 by 8giraffe8

[Quantus he/him]

I think she's called "The" Nightmother, too.  But at god-levels the line between Name and Title (and occasionally Function) will always blur some.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Quantus
fixed typo

[Doomdrinker she/her]

16 hours ago, Quantus said:

So by the Epigraph text is sure sounds to me like they are calling Urithiru "the place nearest to Honor.”

 

I find that very interesting.  I have been trying to apply my professional experience to Urithiru (short version is that I design heavy industrial factories) and the base design point that I keep coming back to is "Why There?".  All Factories are where they are for specific reasons: either it's being built near the natural resources it needs (raw materials, transportation, and/or water are most common for industry), it's being built to AVOID something (climate&weather, political/economic concerns, etc), or it's being built right on top of some other pre-existing Site/System.   There are no obvious geographic benefits (other than riding above the Storm, which aint nothing), and nothing specific about the site for Raw Materials, unless there's more to it on the Shadesmar side, or some other Stormlight/Investiture. 

 

So that's what I keep coming back to: that there must be something about that site specifically that made it the best choice for this city-sized Spren-machine, either on the side of its upstream needs (Fuel) or its downstream needs (Function).  And somewhere right in the middle of all that sits the Sibling...

Well it's a military installation and being in the middle of a mountain range makes it completely impossible to attack by traditional means, add to that the oathgates and it has no need to care about it's location as everything supply and logistics wise goes through an oathgate.

Magic sure makes city building a hell of a lot easier.

[DracostarA]

With the non-binary idea looking promising, I am a fan of the 'male' aspect of the Sibling being the Lifebrother mentioned by Szeth (with an unknown female counterpart, potentially Deathsister but that seems too obvious). The only real support there is for this theory is that Szeth refers to Heralds by name, so it is unlikely to be a Herald's title, and obviously that a 'brother' is a 'sibling' too.

[+Sorana she/her]

40 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

With the non-binary idea looking promising, I am a fan of the 'male' aspect of the Sibling being the Lifebrother mentioned by Szeth (with an unknown female counterpart, potentially Deathsister but that seems too obvious). The only real support there is for this theory is that Szeth refers to Heralds by name, so it is unlikely to be a Herald's title, and obviously that a 'brother' is a 'sibling' too.

I can see why you like the idea of the Lifebrother and the Sibling being connected, that could make for some really interessing consequences. Thinking about the situation in which the Lifebrother was mentioned, that yould open a few more doors. I'll have to think about it for a while

But in the end we don't have enough information on both of them (especially on the Lifebrother) to really asses this theory. I'm really excited to see what Brandon will make of the Sibling...