theofficetroll he/him Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 The scene where Nin revives Szeth and gives him Nightblood are nagging at me. It doesn't feel right. Nin brought Szeth back from death. He used a fabrial or some other device which he quickly hid behind his back, not inborn abilities. Choosing Szeth for a destructive sword with questionable moral direction when he's bent on vengeance against the Shin people seems like a move to cause more chaos and destruction. Why would the Herald of Justice help someone seeking vengeance? I think it's an awesome to have the combination but I get the feeling that this person means for Bad things to come, not good things. A friend said she thinks that this is Odium, but as we know Odium is on Braize, I don't think he's ready to come back to Roshar quite yet. He could be a member of one of the societies trying to cause chaos across Roshar or an agent of Odium or something. Did anyone else get bad vibes from this scene? Sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere, didn't see it at a quick skim. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks he/him Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 The scene where Nin revives Szeth and gives him Nightblood are nagging at me. It doesn't feel right. Nin brought Szeth back from death. He used a fabrial or some other device which he quickly hid behind his back, not inborn abilities. Choosing Szeth for a destructive sword with questionable moral direction when he's bent on vengeance against the Shin people seems like a move to cause more chaos and destruction. Why would the Herald of Justice help someone seeking vengeance? I think it's an awesome to have the combination but I get the feeling that this person means for Bad things to come, not good things. A friend said she thinks that this is Odium, but as we know Odium is on Braize, I don't think he's ready to come back to Roshar quite yet. He could be a member of one of the societies trying to cause chaos across Roshar or an agent of Odium or something. Did anyone else get bad vibes from this scene? Sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere, didn't see it at a quick skim. Most heralds we see are messed up I'm some way or another. Thus, Nin giving Szeth the sword to get "justice" doesn't seem too far off the mark. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 There's something wrong with the Heralds - they've become perversions of the ideals they once upheld. Ash is running around destroying art, specifically images of herself. Jezrien's a drunk. Nale/Nin is pursuing "justice" in a very twisted, literal sense that obviously runs counter to what anyone would consider to be true justice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 he/him Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I still don't think that the drunk beggar was Jesrien. Do we have WoB that that was him? Jesrien would be leading in some knd of perverted way. Edited March 19, 2014 by thejopen27 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Choosing Szeth for a destructive sword with questionable moral direction when he's bent on vengeance against the Shin people seems like a move to cause more chaos and destruction. Why would the Herald of Justice help someone seeking vengeance? I find it doubtful Szeth will be able to match the Everstorm in chaos and destruction. Book 3 is his book, so I think we should see a very different Szeth than we're used to. A focus on justice should make for an interesting book thematically, and it doesn't have to mean repeated executions. InkThinker made the point in another thread that Szeth will likely be obstinate and refuse to follow anyone's orders now. Fits quite well for Just/Confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky-eyes she/her Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 I didn't notice anything odd when I first read it because I was too busy being excited about Nightblood. (I think I spent half a minute looking at the page, then at Warbreaker, and back to page). But not that I think about it he does seem like a twisted version of the Ideal he use to uphold, or it at least looking at a very specific view of judgment. And it's a minor point but maybe Nightblood has changed since Warbreaker. I am very unsure where WoR and Warbreaker fit on the timeline in relation to each other but it is possible that Nightblood might have a little more of an idea of what he's doing now. Or he might not depending on the timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Again my theory on this is a little out there: Basically I think that following death, Szeth will become a lot more honourable and actually will follow along with the concept of justice. My pet theory is that he will end up attracting a spren becoming a true Skybreaker radiant and will eventually lead to the fall of Nalan and his organisation. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theofficetroll he/him Posted March 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yeah, after being splintered for centuries at a time on Braize then living for 4000 years, I wouldn't expect them to be particularly... stable. I'm also curious how Nightblood ended up in the hands of the person introducing himself as Nin. Vasher/ Zahel presumably brought Nightblood to Roshar at some point since Warbreaker then they became separated. I'm not sure how much Nightblood can change. He has a very high level of investure, but nothing related to Breath seems to have a high level of growth or variability. Even the Awakened tend to be archetypal instead of full persons. The similarities between Nalthis and Roshar are striking and Nightblood should have had a relatively smooth transition from one to the other and probably functions better on Roshar. Nightblood consumes Breaths, which I believe are the Spiritual aspect on Nalthis. Stormlight seems to have a similar function on Roshar, but isn't in big chunks and is much more easily replenished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junior Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Choosing Szeth for a destructive sword with questionable moral direction when he's bent on vengeance against the Shin people seems like a move to cause more chaos and destruction. Why would the Herald of Justice help someone seeking vengeance? Vengeance is a form of justice. So it's not out of the question that he might see it as a useful avenue. Additionally, all of his actions that we see in WoR are directed explicitly against people with a Nahel bond. If the belief about the Shin elders still maintaining the bond is correct, then it makes sense that he'd want to go after them. And using Szeth, the not-as-truthless-as-claimed against them is a darkly fitting punishment for them. Finally, keeping everyone's favorite evil-destroying sword under control is tricky. In Warbreaker, the sword constantly "suggests" that people near the wielder might be "evil". The wielder needs to be someone who can keep the sword's... enthusiasm... in check. And Szeth's blind devotion to a job that he loathed shows that he has the capability to do so. Of course, just because Szeth has the capability doesn't mean that he won't screw it up regardless. But the potential is there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banestar Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 For what it's worth, I really think that the simplest / best explanation for whether or not Nin / Nalan / Darkness is really the Herald of the Skybreakers is "yes he is." And the main reason why is the discussion between someone presumed to be him, and another potential Herald during the prologue. During that scene, we have someone who fits Nin's description, conversing with someone (presumed to be a Herald) about Ash (presumed to be a Herald) and the Honorblade, talking about how "they" are getting "worse". I know it's circumstantial, but it does indicate that the person who we know as Darkness / Nin is the same person as the Herald. Interestingly, they (presumably) discuss whether they should have allowed Szeth to keep the Honorblade ... the man presumed to be Darkness / Nin doesn't argue against Szeth having the blade ... and then, presumably, re-arms Szeth after he loses the Honorblade. I just think it's simple and logical that Nin really is the Nin of the Skybreakers / Heralds. Whether or not his "getting worse" has changed him from a force for good to a force for who-knows-what is up in the air, but if this is a facade being put on by a non-Herald, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Nalan is weird. He is hunting fledgling KRs and killing them, but he seems to use any crime he can find to justify his actions. So it seems he has an agenda, but has to convince himself it falls into his "portfolio" so to speak. Here's where he gets weird, though: Szeth. Nightblood isn't enough to really keep Szeth on the screen. After the incredible mobility of the Gravitation Surge, pretty much any other power isn't comparable. To my reading, Nalan saw in Szeth the perfect candidate to attract a spren for the Skybreakers. If this is the goal, Nalan is acting against his earlier plans! Perhaps he finally realized there's no stopping their return, and decided to embrace it instead by making one of the orders his own. Edited March 19, 2014 by Pechvarry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theofficetroll he/him Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 On the note of the thing Nin hides behind his back, I was originally thinking a Fabrial or something. What if he used Nalthian magic and he was putting away an object he drew color from? If he originated from or has traveled to Nalthis, he could have access to Awakening which we know can return someone from the dead. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyDomino Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 That would make me feel a lot better about szeth's resurrection - if he's Lifeless it feels a lot less cheap and adds a whole new dimension to his story. Although whether a lifeless can surgebind is an open question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver he/him Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ooooh.... I was following speculation that Nalan used some sort of an otherwise unknown fabrial to bring him back, but Lifeless!Szeth? That's an interesting idea. We only had a glimpse of things from Szeth's POV when he came back, so it would add an interesting complication to the rest of the novel; we haven't had a lifeless viewpoint yet, so I'd be in favour of it. The more I think about it, the more I like this suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 But lifeless do not really communicate and Returned have no memory of their previous life. Therefore I doubt Szeth is any kind of Nathian entity. I think Nalan is probably telling the truth. He brought Szeth back from the brink of death with the use of a fabrial, probably similar to that used n the Starfalls vision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 From Truthless to Lifeless? Well, that'd be unlucky. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyDomino Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 If anyone can provide quotes for this, I'd be most grateful; IIRC, WoB states that Clod from Warbreaker was Arsteel (or Yesteel, idk), retained his swordsmanship, was in a relationship with Jewels, and a lifeless character was going to get a viewpoint novel. Plus, throughout Warbreaker, Vivenna keeps noticing hints of humanity in Clod. Combine all that with stormlight, and I think Szeth's could be a fully functional lifeless. Plus lifeless bodies are grey, which is similar to a sharebladed limb. Hm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theofficetroll he/him Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) The grey makes sense as a lack of Investiture, which is Breath on Nalthis and Stormlight on Roshar. As the Shardblade severs the soul (connection to the Spiritual Realm), it makes sense that any Investiture would leave that part of the body. I wonder whether the color thing appears elsewhere in the Cosmere. The Skaa on Scadrial were described as being "grey" a lot and we know that they're physiologically different, but is there a difference in coloration due to a lower level of Investiture? Probably not, but it's a thought (also, there's been so much interbreeding that there isn't as much difference at this point) Those afflicted with the Shaod were described as grey and lifeless. Their sDNA is altered in such a way that Devotion's Investiture is forged onto their soul, but there is a split preventing the Investiture to flow correctly, severing them from their Spiritual aspect. In the Forests when Investiture is drained the body is blackened, which is similar to what Nightblood does to Investiture and also what happens to the eyes of those killed with Shardblades. There is a similar thing on Taldain, but I won't post any details here. Perhaps grey signifies a severing while black indicates a destruction? Edited March 26, 2014 by theofficetroll 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyDomino Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I think grey/colour drainage meaning lack of investiture is absolutely correct, but it's a moot point because we got about two pages of Szeth after he died, wih no mention of appearance. Although i am now REALLY curious about a lifeless inhaling stormlight/being bequeathed extra breath/ drawing investiture from Feruchemical nicrosil they stored during their lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 These are all interesting theories! I like the lifeless tie ins, though I'm not sure I agree, even if I like it a lot. First off, I do think it was a fabrial, or maybe a spren, that he used to bring him back. In the section there is this snippet He held one hand behind his back (Nightblood I'm sure.) while the other hand tucked something away into his coat pocket. A fabrial of some sort? Glowing brightly? So there is that, which shows that it was some outside force, other than himself that caused him to come back to life. I also don't think it is a lifeless reawakening. "I waited until you crashed to the ground," the man said, "until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then I restored you." "Impossible." "Not if it is done before the brain dies. ... If I had waited seconds longer, it would have been too late." Lifeless don't have to be restored at a certain time do they? So this stipulation doesn't matter. Also, Brandon wants to keep Stormlight Archives as independent as possible, so throwing in a Deus Ex Nalthis doesn't seem to fit with it, especially since Nightblood is already a big crossover. However, there are some other hints in here that I think point towards the truth of the matter. The first is above. "your soul cut through, dead for certain." "Not if it is done before the brain dies." Then there is this little snippet. "I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to...judge." Emotion. That seems to be something that Nin does not have. In Lift's chapter it mentions over and over again that he never speaks with emotion. In fact, Lift doesn't seem to accept him as a real person. (I don't have the exact quote, sorry.) Here is my theory for that. Nin doesn't have a soul. He used the same fabrial as on Szeth, after he died, his soul cut, dead for sure, but before the brain dies. Nin doesn't want the spiritual aspect of himself, or Szeth to get in the way, and so he used a weapon that doesn't target the physical or cognitive aspects, just the soul. That's why Nin doesn't ever use any emotions. That's why he never approached Szeth before this. He needed to wait until Szeth's soul was severed. After Kaladin killed Szeth's soul when he attacked, and that broke him enough to overload the other two aspects, causing apparent death, but as others have survived without physical bodies, the physical and cognitive can survive without the spiritual, with a little help. This also might make it easier for him to invest, as now there is a HUGE space that can be filled with investiture, instead of just a broken soul to be filled. Now Szeth doesn't seem to be reacting in the same way Nin has been, but that could be force of habit. In fact, nowhere in the chapter does he describe any emotions Szeth is feeling directly, just actions. There was also the problem of the honorblade he was bound to, but that was taken care of as well. "You did and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties-both spiritual and physical-undone. You are reborn." So that is what makes Szeth such a perfect compliment to Nightblood. No emotion, a willpower as hard as steel. No traces of evil, just obedience. He did what his own personal moral code asked of him always, and isn't that what would constitute evil? Not an outside arbiter to decide, but instead your own morality and how closely you stick to that code. This also ties in to my theory that the skybreakers used to be bonded to spren, but voluntarily broke their oaths to prevent the return of the voidbringers. I had this idea mostly from Helaran. He had a blade no one could identify (newer blade) but it had a gemstone on the hilt. He had dealings with Hoid (cosmere significant,) Mraize mentioned he had sought out the skybreakers, and King T thought Shallan might have learned from him. So with his masterpiece skybreaker, Nin took it a step further, and completely severed the spiritual aspect of Szeth, instead of just having him kill a spren he was bonded to. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoMancer Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Vengeance is a form of justice. So it's not out of the question that he might see it as a useful avenue. Additionally, all of his actions that we see in WoR are directed explicitly against people with a Nahel bond. If the belief about the Shin elders still maintaining the bond is correct, then it makes sense that he'd want to go after them. And using Szeth, the not-as-truthless-as-claimed against them is a darkly fitting punishment for them. Finally, keeping everyone's favorite evil-destroying sword under control is tricky. In Warbreaker, the sword constantly "suggests" that people near the wielder might be "evil". The wielder needs to be someone who can keep the sword's... enthusiasm... in check. And Szeth's blind devotion to a job that he loathed shows that he has the capability to do so. Of course, just because Szeth has the capability doesn't mean that he won't screw it up regardless. But the potential is there. All this talk of "vengeance" and "Justice"... Don't we have a WoB telling us one of the oaths of the Skybreakers? something like: "I will put the law above all else" (the second ideal, I believe) Isn't there a pretty distinct line between vigilantism (taking the law into your own hands) and vengeance (gettin some old fashioned revenge)? Although I think that the justice of it might make our assassin in white feel some warm fuzzies as he hacks his way through the people that declared him Truthless, I don't know that a true Skybreaker could do the same for the same reasons.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefe91 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Has anyone noticed that Darkness can force his will on individuals, this occurred twice during the interlude with Lift. Is it a known fact that sky breakers have this capability? If not could darkness be a willshaper and could the be the last surviving order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Has anyone noticed that Darkness can force his will on individuals, this occurred twice during the interlude with Lift. Is it a known fact that sky breakers have this capability? I noticed this as well. I think it's some sort of altering fabrial (he has a lot of those) that effects feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Assuming that Szeth is a lifeless, what would happen if you threw a divine Breath, or it's equivalent, into him to Awaken him? Would you be able to give the command, "be justice"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyDomino Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 I noticed this as well. I think it's some sort of altering fabrial (he has a lot of those) that effects feelings. A Fabrial that has the same effect as burning brass/zinc? Such a thing has been referenced in the Ars Arcanum iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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