Blade giver (Spoilers)

[Aleksiel]

A Fabrial that has the same effect as burning brass/zinc? Such a thing has been referenced in the Ars Arcanum iirc.

 

Yes, that's how I imagine it. Though I suppose we haven't seen enough to be certain, but I think it'll be similar enough.

[Pechvarry]

All the orders have special non-surge talents, and knights tend to have traits that emulate their "patron" Herald. I won't be surprised to find the skybreaker bond helps the human to turn off emotion.

Which means big T's man (the bald thaylen) is also a skybreaker.

[Aleksiel]

Which means big T's man (the bald thaylen) is also a skybreaker.

 

Why would it mean this? He was Aimian, right? They can alter their looks and cancel their emotions as far as I recall.

[Pechvarry]

Why would it mean this? He was Aimian, right? They can alter their looks and cancel their emotions as far as I recall.

 

Last I knew, that was a theory floating around, and not one very high on evidence.  Unless there's some WoB I'm completely unaware of.  

 

And I didn't mean that as science fact -- I'm putting forth an idea.  If Skybreakers can choose not to feel emotion, then it would make sense as the explanation for the Thayan guy.

[Aleksiel]

Last I knew, that was a theory floating around, and not one very high on evidence.  Unless there's some WoB I'm completely unaware of.  

 

And I didn't mean that as science fact -- I'm putting forth an idea.  If Skybreakers can choose not to feel emotion, then it would make sense as the explanation for the Thayan guy.

 

Mm, you are right, it's not canon. I assumed it was. Anyway, what the reason that makes you think Skybreakers might be able to turn off their emotions? It's possible to be some passive ability, so they could pass judgement without emotions in the way, but there's no evidence of that whereas there are at least rumors for the Dysian Aimians. (Though I really can't remember if the said guy was one.)

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Are we sure other skybreakers do alter their emotional state? I had only noticed Nalan doing being described as emotionless.

[theofficetroll he/him]

WoB is that a Taldain native (Khriss) would pass for Makabaki. What if Darkness/ Nin is also originally from Taldain? This could explain something about the brightness regarding investiture. Also, we know that White Sand takes place prior to Mistborn, so they've been active for some time and Khriss has been hinted at being more knowledgable about goings on in the cosmere than Hoid.

 

If Khriss/ Khrissala became a herald, why not another Taldain native? Though, I think it's more likely that the heralds each hailed from different Shardworlds.

 

Anyway, those are some late night ramblings from me :-)

[Aether he/him]

I really doubt Khriss is Shalash/Baxil's mistress. If she really is the author of the Ars Arcanum - as has been heavily implied - then i do not see her running around on Roshar destroying art and whatnot.

[hoser he/him]

Amazing discussion!

These are all interesting theories! ...

 

Emotion. That seems to be something that Nin does not have. In Lift's chapter it mentions over and over again that he never speaks with emotion. In fact, Lift doesn't seem to accept him as a real person. (I don't have the exact quote, sorry.) Here is my theory for that. Nin doesn't have a soul. He used the same fabrial as on Szeth, after he died, his soul cut, dead for sure, but before the brain dies. Nin doesn't want the spiritual aspect of himself, or Szeth to get in the way, and so he used a weapon that doesn't target the physical or cognitive aspects, just the soul. That's why Nin doesn't ever use any emotions. That's why he never approached Szeth before this. He needed to wait until Szeth's soul was severed. 

...

So that is what makes Szeth such a perfect compliment to Nightblood. No emotion, a willpower as hard as steel. No traces of evil, just obedience. He did what his own personal moral code asked of him always, and isn't that what would constitute evil? Not an outside arbiter to decide, but instead your own morality and how closely you stick to that code. 

 

This also ties in to my theory that the skybreakers used to be bonded to spren, but voluntarily broke their oaths to prevent the return of the voidbringers. I had this idea mostly from Helaran. He had a blade no one could identify (newer blade) but it had a gemstone on the hilt. He had dealings with Hoid (cosmere significant,) Mraize mentioned he had sought out the skybreakers, and King T thought Shallan might have learned from him. So with his masterpiece skybreaker, Nin took it a step further, and completely severed the spiritual aspect of Szeth, instead of just having him kill a spren he was bonded to. 

For Nin/Nalan/Darkness/whatever, we have the eons of torture and survival guilt/betrayal.  Shallash is apparently peacefully destroying artwork.  Slaughtering surgebinders seems very different.  I keep wondering about his the scar on his face. Did he have that when the Heralds packed it in?  Could it be a means/result of something that further corrupted him?  I wonder whether Odium got to him sometime during the last four millenia.  OTOH, emotionless does not exactly seem like Odium's modus operandi.  If Odium was controlling him somehow, I imagine the other Heralds might be able to tell and wouldn't work with him, as they must know Odium well. 

 

While slaughtering for Mr. T, Szeth seems to have also been serving Odium (support for this thesis below).  

 

Szeth just makes no sense to me.  He apparently had information about the return/existence of the Heralds/Radiants/Voidbringers.  He knows that this would be the (I-10) "... End of All Things.  The end of truth."  He is so convinced of this that he doesn't flee the Stone Shamanate, whose base concept is that they are "all that remains," but bears witness to the falseness of their belief system even though he knows that he might be punished.  Then he just accepts their sentence of Truthlessness.  If he knows they are wrong, then why would he accept the sentence?  If he is not sure that they are wrong, then why did he speak up in the first place? 

 

If Szeth believed in doing the right thing by his own understanding, then he would not accept the punishment of the Shamanate that he knows is fundamentally wrong.  If he doesn't accept his own understanding of the information he found about the H/R/V, then why would he challenge the Shamanate enough to be punished so severely?   

Others have deduced that the Skybreakers had highspren and were the order that "entertained great subterfuge" and didn't disband at the Recreance.  If some of the Skybreakers then died naturally without breaking their oaths, their spren wouldn't have been killed.  This would account for why Jasnah could get information from the highspren that she couldn't from the spren that were killed at the Recreance. 

 

Support for Szeth serving Odium: 

• In chapter 32 the Stormfather tells Kaladin that "HE COMES" with an image of the Everstorm and Syl says "He's coming." ... "The one who hates," ... "The darkness inside. Kaladin, he's watching.  Something is going to happen.  Something bad." just before Szeth attackes the first time. 
• Szeth finds himself hating everyone even though he knows it is irrational and observes that it is a strange emotion.
• Szeth "hears" the screaming of his victims.  Blightwind (Yelig-nar?, an Unmade) is also associated with the screaming of those he consumed. 

[kaellok he/him]

Being emotionless isn't mentioned anywhere as being one of the 'special' things of Skybreakers, but having an uncanny ability to separate the guilty from the innocent is.

 

Epigraphs from Chapter 54 and 55, both taken from in-world Words of Radiance Chapter 28, page 3 (emphasis added):

 

 

There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.

 

The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real an acknowledged even by their rivals.

 

So that it seems pretty clear to me that that would be their 'something extra.'

[hoser he/him]

Another thread brought to mind another way in which Nalan's behavior makes no sense to me.

• He murders proto-Surgebinders under the flimsiest of pretenses "to avert a Desolation."
• He is apparently monitoring the situation when the Parshendi summon the Everstorm, but he does nothing to intervene. 

If he was opposed to the Desolation, why would he not help stop the Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm?

 

It does fit with the way that he did nothing to stop Szeth when Szeth was apparently serving Odium. 

[Moogle]

Another thread brought to mind another way in which Nalan's behavior makes no sense to me.

• He murders proto-Surgebinders under the flimsiest of pretenses "to avert a Desolation."
• He is apparently monitoring the situation when the Parshendi summon the Everstorm, but he does nothing to intervene. 

If he was opposed to the Desolation, why would he not help stop the Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm?

 

What would you have liked him to do that could have contributed meaningfully to the battle? Keeping in mind that doing so would be unlikely to change things (Heralds, I imagine, could not single-handedly destroy armies) and he'd be blowing his cover, I'm curious as to what effective action you think he could have taken to turn the entire battle around. At best, I'm thinking, he kills a few hundred or thousand Parshendi and the Everstorm is still called.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

This discussion is just about Nalan's motivations.  I understand that the Everstorm had to happen for meta-purposes of the story.  I do think Nalan has some way to travel freely.  He could have his Honorblade, one of the Honorblades that allows teleportation or a fabrial that allows flying or teleportation.  I don't see how he retrieves Szeth's body without some amazing form of travel.

What would you have liked him to do that could have contributed meaningfully to the battle? Keeping in mind that doing so would be unlikely to change things (Heralds, I imagine, could not single-handedly destroy armies) and he'd be blowing his cover, I'm curious as to what effective action you think he could have taken to turn the entire battle around. At best, I'm thinking, he kills a few hundred or thousand Parshendi and the Everstorm is still called.

There are apparently 3 fronts: Adolin's, Aladar's and Roion's.  On Adolin's front they slaughter the singers before they are done and take out the Parshendi warleader and only Shardbearer.  On Aladar's, they eventually prevail.  On Roion's, the Parshendi rout them and are able to finish the song as they wish. 

 

I do think a flying or teleporting Herald with a Shardblade could make a difference.  For example, slaughtering the Voidbringers from the back as they start their song would probably have an amazing effect.  I could also see him monitoring the battlefield and joining Roion's side as they start to break.  I do think the leadership of a Herald, invested and bearing a Shardblade, could have maybe turned the tide there.  The Heralds apparently were significant players in turning back previous desolations. 

 

The most effective thing he could have done, IMO, would have been to check in with the Alethi leadership before the battle.  Immediately beforehand, the knowledge that they had a Herald on their side would have helped the Alethi morale significantly.  If he shows up even earlier, he can be even more beneficial, helping the Alethi get to the center quicker, providing information, training and inspiration.  With a living, functioning Herald who knows the shattered plains and can travel around them freely, they might have even been able to get more than four highprinces to join the expedition. 

 

I cannot say with any certainty what effect Nalan would have had, but what is most significant to me is that he didn't even try.  If the Everstorm initiated the Desolation and Nalan is sincerely interested in averting same, wouldn't you think he would at least try to do something about it?

 

As for blowing his cover, what is the point anymore?  With the start of a Desolation and the existence of Radiants and Voidbringers, the lies of the Heralds are exposed.  I do not see a good reason to hide anymore. 

 

Nalan certainly has tons of information that would be useful to the resistance if he wanted to share it.  Instead, he pursues his agenda of overthrowing the Shamanate.  I could imagine that he and Szeth might end up bringing the Shin and the Honorblades into the fray for the resistance, but I don't see why he isn't helping more.  

Edited April 25, 2014 by hoser

[Moogle]

I cannot say with any certainty what effect Nalan would have had, but what is most significant to me is that he didn't even try.  If the Everstorm initiated the Desolation and Nalan is sincerely interested in averting same, wouldn't you think he would at least try to do something about it?

 

I think that Nalan would have tried to do something about it if he could stop a Desolation.

 

There's a lot of assumptions we're making here:

• A Desolation is started by the Everstorm.
• Nalan knew the Parshendi were going to summon the Everstorm, or had changed into stormform.
• Nalan was in Natanatan at the same time as Dalinar asked the highprinces to join him.

Nalan was apparently following Szeth around to keep an eye on him (I imagine being invisible and flying lets you get away with a lot), and Szeth didn't arrive in the Shattered Plains for quite some time.

 

I agree that there's a lot Nalan could have done, but only mostly before the battle started. Nalan couldn't just drop in with Szeth and proclaim that he was helping them fight. I also do not think Nalan could have killed the Parshendi fast enough to prevent the storm being summoned, though he likely could have killed a lot.

 

The Heralds were killed in previous wars, and Shardplate seems to be an invention of the Radiants. I believe the strengths of the Heralds lay mainly in their ability to organize and train men, rather than their combat ability - a Radiant is far more efficient at holding Stormlight than an Honorblade wielder, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Radiants were more capable than Heralds in combat (though probably not a duel).

 

I do wonder what Nalan will do now that the Desolation has (apparently) come.

[hoser he/him]

I think that Nalan would have tried to do something about it if he could stop a Desolation.

...

• Nalan knew the Parshendi were going to summon the Everstorm, or had changed into stormform.

Nalan was apparently following Szeth around to keep an eye on him (I imagine being invisible and flying lets you get away with a lot), and Szeth didn't arrive in the Shattered Plains for quite some time.

The Heralds were killed in previous wars, and Shardplate seems to be an invention of the Radiants. I believe the strengths of the Heralds lay mainly in their ability to organize and train men, rather than their combat ability - a Radiant is far more efficient at holding Stormlight than an Honorblade wielder, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Radiants were more capable than Heralds in combat (though probably not a duel).

I don't see how you can monitor Szeth's activities without noticing that the Parshendi have changed into stormform.  For that matter, how does Szeth not notice that the Voidbringers are all around and that his whole Truthless gig is totally bogus before doing the "Assassinate Dalinar, the Sequel" act. 

 

Heralds have died before, but I doubt that people who are singing obliviously and take too long to react to defend themselves killed many Heralds.  I do think that a Herald without Shardplate is more than a match for any single Radiant, because otherwise all the desolations after the Radiants occurred would have been cakewalks. 

 

There's a lot of assumptions we're making here:

• A Desolation is started by the Everstorm.

I do wonder what Nalan will do now that the Desolation has (apparently) come.

Okay, I'm a little confused here.  Do you think a Desolation has come or not?  I personally have no doubt.  Is it time to start a new "I told you so" list?

 

As for your last sentence: amen, brother (or sister).

[Moogle]

I don't see how you can monitor Szeth's activities without noticing that the Parshendi have changed into stormform.  For that matter, how does Szeth not notice that the Voidbringers are all around and that his whole Truthless gig is totally bogus before doing the "Assassinate Dalinar, the Sequel" act.

 

Nobody knows what the Voidbringers looked like, and the stormforms still looked like listeners, or so I imagine. I doubt Szeth was looking at them up close to see them with red eyes or using lightning. I imagine Szeth's little issue with being insane also might have contributed.

 

As to monitoring Szeth, Szeth was busy traveling between the Shattered Plains and Jah Keved. I'm not sure why you think Nalan would know that the Parshendi changed when Szeth wasn't anywhere near the Parshendi for quite some time.

 

Heralds have died before, but I doubt that people who are singing obliviously and take too long to react to defend themselves killed many Heralds.  I do think that a Herald without Shardplate is more than a match for any single Radiant, because otherwise all the desolations after the Radiants occurred would have been cakewalks. 

 

I agree that Heralds are a match for a single Radiant (hence my dueling comment), but that is not the same as them being more useful than Radiants in combat. Heralds use Stormlight inefficiently, so they'd run out faster. A Radiant could swing his Shardblade for hours longer than the Heralds and so kill more things than the Herald. Plus, the Radiant would be less vulnerable to being stabbed.

 

 

Okay, I'm a little confused here.  Do you think a Desolation has come or not?  I personally have no doubt.  Is it time to start a new "I told you so" list?

 

I'm not absolutely confident, but I'm 95% sure a Desolation has come. What I'm saying is that we don't know that an Everstorm starts a Desolation. It's possible an Everstorm can exist without there being a Desolation, so Nalan may not be worried about it. I think it is very important to note this assumption, even though it's likely that Everstorms mean there's a Desolation.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

Nobody knows what the Voidbringers looked like, and the stormforms still looked like listeners, or so I imagine. I doubt Szeth was looking at them up close to see them with red eyes or using lightning. I imagine Szeth's little issue with being insane also might have contributed.

 

As to monitoring Szeth, Szeth was busy traveling between the Shattered Plains and Jah Keved. I'm not sure why you think Nalan would know that the Parshendi changed when Szeth wasn't anywhere near the Parshendi for quite some time.

 

 

I agree that Heralds are a match for a single Radiant (hence my dueling comment), but that is not the same as them being more useful than Radiants in combat. Heralds use Stormlight inefficiently, so they'd run out faster. A Radiant could swing his Shardblade for hours longer than the Heralds and so kill more things than the Herald. Plus, the Radiant would be less vulnerable to being stabbed.

 

 

I'm not absolutely confident, but I'm 95% sure a Desolation has come. What I'm saying is that we don't know that an Everstorm starts a Desolation. It's possible an Everstorm can exist without there being a Desolation, so Nalan may not be worried about it. I think it is very important to note this assumption, even though it's likely that Everstorms mean there's a Desolation.

To approach, Szeth had to either fly in or have been traveling with the army for some time.  If he flew in, how did he miss the thousands of glowing, singing, lightning striking Voidbringers surrounding the Alethi?  If he traveled with the army, how did he not hear about or see them while he traveled with the army?  Did he just fly in right after the last of the Parshendi fled?  It seems possible, but that's awfully convenient timing.  I hope Brandon didn't do that to us.  Even the Alethi immediately knew the red eyes meant Voidbringers and Szeth has always had more information about them than the Alethi.  As a resident of Roshar, Szeth would know that a highstorm during the weeping is just wrong. 

If 40% of the Radiants fight, each one contributes more in a battle than a Herald and there are hundreds of fighting Radiants, then the H+C side would become much stronger with the advent of the Radiants.  If Heralds + peasants can barely beat a Desolation with the Heralds playing a significant role, then Heralds + Radiants + peasants has no trouble with a desolation.  So I think the Heralds are vastly more capable than the Radiants. 

 

This chain of deductions does have the stamp of missing information.  My main point is that Nalan must have seen what was going on and could have made a significant difference, but he chose not to even try.  What does that tell us about his goals?  In addition, Nalan knows things and can sense things that others can't.  While we don't know what his abilities are for sure, it seems likely that he could perceive the Voidbringers and the Everstorm. 

[Moogle]

To approach, Szeth had to either fly in or have been traveling with the army for some time.  If he flew in, how did he miss the thousands of glowing, singing, lightning striking Voidbringers surrounding the Alethi?  If he traveled with the army, how did he not hear about or see them while he traveled with the army?  Did he just fly in right after the last of the Parshendi fled?  It seems possible, but that's awfully convenient timing.

 

What, you mean like the time where Eshonai took on stormform just before her peace talks with Dalinar so Dalinar would have a nice convenient excuse to kill the Parshendi with a clear conscience? Despite how Eshonai said it was too dangerous for her sister to try stormform and also knowing that peace talks were equally, if not more, important than the form research? Brandon isn't above convenient timing and nudging characters along certain paths to make the plot execute cleanly, and I'd guess that's what happened here.

 

If 40% of the Radiants fight, each one contributes more in a battle than a Herald and there are hundreds of fighting Radiants, then the H+C side would become much stronger with the advent of the Radiants.  If Heralds + peasants can barely beat a Desolation with the Heralds playing a significant role, then Heralds + Radiants + peasants has no trouble with a desolation.  So I think the Heralds are vastly more capable than the Radiants.

 

Or, perhaps, you're overestimating the impact of Radiants and Heralds and it's the "peasants" who do most of the work. I'd argue this is the case. Ten thousand soldiers with hammers can kill more thunderclasts than a Herald or Radiant, I imagine. In this case, adding Radiants into the mix would make Desolations slightly easier but not an easy win for Team Honor. Also: it's implied by Kalak that the Desolations vary in intensity, and that in the Last Desolation the enemy was "tenacious". It's possible that by adding in the Radiants, Odium was able to increase his strength as well because whatever Honor did to bind him demanded he fight fair.

 

 

This chain of deductions does have the stamp of missing information.  My main point is that Nalan must have seen what was going on and could have made a significant difference, but he chose not to even try.  What does that tell us about his goals?  In addition, Nalan knows things and can sense things that others can't.  While we don't know what his abilities are for sure, it seems likely that he could perceive the Voidbringers and the Everstorm.

 

I grant that it's possible, maybe even likely, that Nalan might have seen what was going on, but I think there's a very good chance that Nalan felt he could do nothing to change the outcome of the battle and that he wasn't willing to give up his secret identity trying. If he did know the entire situation and chose to do nothing, it seems to conflict with his known motivations. I think we could probably guess that Nalan is terrified at the idea of revealing his identity to the public and was willing to let a Desolation happen rather than be forced into his role as a Herald (and probably let the other Heralds know that he went back for his Honorblade).

[hoser he/him]

What, you mean like the time where Eshonai took on stormform just before her peace talks with Dalinar so Dalinar would have a nice convenient excuse to kill the Parshendi with a clear conscience? Despite how Eshonai said it was too dangerous for her sister to try stormform and also knowing that peace talks were equally, if not more, important than the form research? Brandon isn't above convenient timing and nudging characters along certain paths to make the plot execute cleanly, and I'd guess that's what happened here.

Point taken.

 

{vent}

Pissed me off, too.  Why have both sides talking about peace in a war that has lasted for years, then the Parshendi don't even try to communicate until it's too late.  Pointless subplot, except for providing Rlain motivation to leave Bridge 4. 

{/vent}