[OB] Why Aluminium Wipes Investiture

[The Thinking Herald]

This theory makes a lot of presumptions it probably shouldn’t. Namely, it presumes that @Stark’s idea about aluminium being Adonalsium’s god metal is true.

But anyway, with that disclaimer out of the way, here’s my idea.

Aluminium wipes investiture because it is itself a form of investiture.

Hear me out. Essentially, from the way I perceive using shardic investiture, using investiture basically gives the preexisting investiture from that shard in the human a boost. If all humans were equally invested in by the shards, using one shards investiture basically changes the percentage ratio of investiture in someone’s body. Of course, it’s different for the Scadrians, who only have Ruin and Preservation in them, but the same principle applies. For example, using Ruin’s investiture increases the amount and percentage of said investiture in a human, and if used enough can override other investiture. Also, in order to use something’s investiture, you’d need to change the percentage ratio in a human.

So, the idea. If Aluminium is Adonalsium’s god metal, and thus investiture, then, by my idea above, using Aluminium will override other investiture and restore a human to a state like Adonalsium with each shard’s investiture comprising a sixteenth of that human.

Crazy idea, I know, but it could explain how Aluminium renders investiture inert. Basically, since it’s adonalsiums investiture, it makes the human more like Adonalsium and balances the other investiture.

Sorry for rambling. I welcome feedback, both positive and negative, so long as it remains constructive. WoBs and specific quotes in particular.

[Fezzik]

Wasn't Kelsier turned into a cognitive shadow by preservation, using preservation's investiture at the well of ascension? He still wasn't connected enough to preservation to naturally take up the power until he broke the ball of connection.

[Leyrann]

4 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

This theory makes a lot of presumptions it probably shouldn’t. Namely, it presumes that @Stark’s idea about aluminium being Adonalsium’s god metal is true.

But anyway, with that disclaimer out of the way, here’s my idea.

Aluminium wipes investiture because it is itself a form of investiture.

Hear me out. Essentially, from the way I perceive using shardic investiture, using investiture basically gives the preexisting investiture from that shard in the human a boost. If all humans were equally invested in by the shards, using one shards investiture basically changes the percentage ratio of investiture in someone’s body. Of course, it’s different for the Scadrians, who only have Ruin and Preservation in them, but the same principle applies. For example, using Ruin’s investiture increases the amount and percentage of said investiture in a human, and if used enough can override other investiture. Also, in order to use something’s investiture, you’d need to change the percentage ratio in a human.

So, the idea. If Aluminium is Adonalsium’s god metal, and thus investiture, then, by my idea above, using Aluminium will override other investiture and restore a human to a state like Adonalsium with each shard’s investiture comprising a sixteenth of that human.

Crazy idea, I know, but it could explain how Aluminium renders investiture inert. Basically, since it’s adonalsiums investiture, it makes the human more like Adonalsium and balances the other investiture.

Sorry for rambling. I welcome feedback, both positive and negative, so long as it remains constructive. WoBs and specific quotes in particular.

It doesn't explain why aluminium also blocks investiture though (can't be Forged, can't be pushed, etc)

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

If all humans were equally invested in by the shards, using one shards investiture basically changes the percentage ratio of investiture in someone’s body.
it could explain how Aluminium renders investiture inert. Basically, since it’s adonalsiums investiture, it makes the human more like Adonalsium and balances the other investiture.

That supposition could be valid in current times, what with the Shard-centric magic systems and all, but Aluminum acted like this before Adonalsium shattered.

Everybody's Investiture should've been balanced as 100% Adonalsium back then, so if it works the way you're suggesting, I don't see how it would do much of anything back then.

[The Deity]

6 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

Aluminium will override other investiture and restore a human to a state like Adonalsium with each shard’s investiture comprising a sixteenth of that human.

This wouldn't always be the case, as on Scadrial there are two shards and when Aluminum is burned it wipes all forms of investure for both, not making the Scadrialian have some essence of all 16. 

It might've been the case on the original planet created by Adonalsium (i forget the name) since Adonalsium is all 16 it might be the case there, but on Scadrial or Roshar it wouldn't since there are only 2 or 3 shards on those planets respectively, and we see no evidence that any of the characters on Scadrial experience both effects of the shards as a result of Aluminum burning. However @King Cole, and I theorized that since Adonalsium is all the shards combined it would have the same effect as AoL spoiler:

Spoiler

Since Harmony is Ruin and Preservation and since those two oppose each other they show end-neutral form of Intent. 

 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, The Deity said:

It might've been the case on the original planet created by Adonalsium (i forget the name)

You are thinking of Yolen, where the Vessels lived pre-Shattering. Also bear in mind that we don't know if this world was created by Adonalsium or if it came into existence through natural methods(and I doubt we'll ever get an answer to that one)

[The Deity]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

where the Vessels lived pre-Shattering

The Vessels are the Shard-holders right?

 

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, The Deity said:

The Vessels are the Shard-holders right?

Yes.

[ItsAllAboutDragons]

Is there any indication that the Shards outside of Scadrial have a connection to metals? I've always assumed that the metallic system was unique to the Mistborn world, much like spren are unique to Roshar and breaths are unique to Nalthis.

I also feel like aluminum is more inert than an opposing power, but there's that pesky idea that things which are already invested are harder to affect with investiture. It's also Cosmere wide, which suggests Adonalsium. So, I guess I'm saying that I see the OP's point but I can't stomach the assumption that the Scadrian godmetals reflect a universal mechanic.

[RShara]

I disagree about aluminum being Adonalsium's god metal, because all of the god metals we've seen form as pure metals.  Aluminum has to be refined and requires fairly modern technology. Lerasium, atium, Shardblades, etc, when they form, are formed pure.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, ItsAllAboutDragons said:

Is there any indication that the Shards outside of Scadrial have a connection to metals? I've always assumed that the metallic system was unique to the Mistborn world, much like spren are unique to Roshar and breaths are unique to Nalthis.

Not in the same way as the Scadrian ones, but for all of the Shards, their Investiture condensed into solid form is metallic. Brandon has said this is a little law of the Cosmere. So, all Shards have a connection of sorts to metal, but it's only the Scadrian manifestations of Investiture where it's the Focus of the magic.

[Stark]

21 hours ago, Leyrann said:

It doesn't explain why aluminium also blocks investiture though (can't be Forged, can't be pushed, etc)

It maybe does.  There is difficulty pushing invested metal - such as metalminds.  So much so that

Spoiler

The bands of morning initially read as aluminum.  They were so heavily invested that they were mistaken for aluminum initially.

And Brandon has stated that heavily invested items are more difficult to forge or Soulcast, due in part to the Investiture cost to overcome the investiture already contained in the target.  I am horribly misquoting that WoB.  Please be gentle Arcanists.

 

That said, I do support the theory that Adonalsium is a God metal, but it is a flawed theory.  Rshara's point about the need for refinement is as valid as ever.  We have yet to see any godmetal that needs refinement of any type.  Unless (Nalthis)

Spoiler

Edgli's metal is a pigment in the flowers that must be refined out to be used as dye and Awakening fuel.  But that is a ludicrous stretch.

Either way, we have only seen three of 16 godmetals on screen, absolute max of six.  That is not enough to conclude that the metal must always appear pure.  Or even stable (Harmonium?)

 

Anyway, that is my two cents.  We don't know enough to be able to conclude what we do and don't know with Aluminum, other than it is weird, valuable, RAFO'd till the end of time, and makes decent bicycles.  But the blank state idea is kinda neat.

[Fezzik]

23 minutes ago, Stark said:

And Brandon has stated that heavily invested items are more difficult to forge or Soulcast, due in part to the Investiture cost to overcome the investiture already contained in the target. 

I have seen this, but how would a feruchemist store in it if it is already full of investiture?

[Fatikis]

I think it is pretty obvious that the God metals aren't real metals. We literally know how aluminum is formed. We know how aluminum works.

Scadrial was created by Ati and Leras. There is no way that aluminum could have gotten there if it was a god metal. We can say with 99.99% certainty that aluminum is not a god metal.

[Stark]

1 hour ago, John203 said:

I have seen this, but how would a feruchemist store in it if it is already full of investiture?

How do they store in Atium, which is also full of investiture?

 

God metals are weird.  Aluminum is weird.  Aluminum may not be a Godmetal, but I think it is far from the worst candidate, and I like it as a candidate.

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

How do they store in Atium, which is also full of investiture?

 

God metals are weird.  Aluminum is weird.  Aluminum may not be a Godmetal, but I think it is far from the worst candidate, and I like it as a candidate.

Atium is made of investiture, not charged with it. That's why Feruchemist can store investiture in it. Technically all matter, energy, and investiture are interchangeable, so it could be argued that all matter, including aluminium is already investiture. Its just balanced between the sixteen (or in the case of Scadrial, the two), whereas the god metals are purely one or the other.

[Weltall]

One thing to bear in mind: You cannot create godmetals by Soulcasting. However, you can create aluminum by Soulcasting. Aluminum behaves weirdly, yes, but it's not Invested in the same way that godmetals are.

[RShara]

Here's an interesting aluminum WoB from Jordancon

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It is said by [Kaladin's] friend Syl, that everything has a spren. Does Aluminum have a spren? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Aluminum have a spren? This is a good question for philosphers in world. I would say the majority of them would say yes, its just a very isolated and unresponsive spren. There are some who would say no, it is the dead material, that has no spren, but others would argue that a dead material with no spren would just disintegrate to death, so Aluminum is kind of a strange duck. 

source

It really seems to imply aluminum is its own thing, not like god metals or anything else we've seen.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RShara

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, Stark said:

It maybe does.  There is difficulty pushing invested metal - such as metalminds.  So much so that

  Hide contents

The bands of morning initially read as aluminum.  They were so heavily invested that they were mistaken for aluminum initially.

And Brandon has stated that heavily invested items are more difficult to forge or Soulcast, due in part to the Investiture cost to overcome the investiture already contained in the target.  I am horribly misquoting that WoB.  Please be gentle Arcanists.

Aluminum isn't Invested though, so I'm not seeing the connection.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
Aluminum resists Investiture generally, even when it’s not Invested itself.

The Investiture in an Aluminum Metalmind/Spike would make it harder to push on, except that you can't push on it in the first place, despite it not being invested.

[Stark]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Here's an interesting aluminum WoB from Jordancon

So it is canon now that Aluminum is a duck?

@The One Who Connects I was not implying that Aluminum is invested.  My belief is that it is an absence of Investiture - as Adonalsium's investiture has been taken and split in 16 pieces, his metal, and body is empty.  So for me, Aluminum is empty, which links a little with it being a dead thing/odd duck from the WOB.  The original point was that other materials, heavily invested, are more difficult to manipulate via investiture - Such as Nightblood, or metalminds.  So Aluminum acts like Invested material, which is not saying that it is.

 

The follow up asked how Feruchemists could use it if it was invested (which is not what I said) and I compared to Atium, which is solid investiture, which can hold a feruchemical charge.  So Godmetals, which are investiture rich, can still be metalminds.  The counter here is that while Atium is investiture heavy, it can still be pushed and pulled with Allomancy, unlike Aluminum. 

 

So I see with the conversation history, and my responses to responses, it is possible to see me hinting that aluminum is invested, and I apologize for that.  Not my intent.  I don't think that, and did not state that.  I think that Adonalsium is like a vampire's victim, drained of everything, a husk.  Only investiture, not blood.  So his Godmetal would be absent the investiture markers like Atium and others.  But it would still have some markers, acting like an invested item, but different.  I'm doing a really poor job of explaining myself right now.  

 

What I'm trying to say is that I think that Adonalsium's husk, his godmetal would be so empty it would act like an anti-godmetal.  Opposite of the others.  Wiping out investiture rather than boosting it.  Being blank and unresponsive, rather than manipulable.

Worth noting, Feruchemical Aluminum stores Identity, making the user a blank slate of Identity.

[Fezzik]

But using feruchemy, you can get things out of it. Put in identity and become a blank slate, take out identity and get a reinforced identity.

Hemalurgically, you can also take stuff.

Edited April 23, 2018 by John203

[Fatikis]

19 hours ago, Stark said:

So I see with the conversation history, and my responses to responses, it is possible to see me hinting that aluminum is invested, and I apologize for that.  Not my intent.  I don't think that, and did not state that.  I think that Adonalsium is like a vampire's victim, drained of everything, a husk.  Only investiture, not blood.  So his Godmetal would be absent the investiture markers like Atium and others.  But it would still have some markers, acting like an invested item, but different.  I'm doing a really poor job of explaining myself right now.  

 

What I'm trying to say is that I think that Adonalsium's husk, his godmetal would be so empty it would act like an anti-godmetal.  Opposite of the others.  Wiping out investiture rather than boosting it.  Being blank and unresponsive, rather than manipulable.

If aluminum was Adonalsium how is it on Scadrial? Scadrial didn't exist preshattering. 

I'd like to point out the god metals ARE investiture. It doesn't matter if Adonalsium is dead. The metal would still be raw investiture. You can't remove the investiture from a God metal. It is investiture.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fatikis

[Stark]

I figure that if Adonalsium was involved in everything, and hios investiture permeates everything, than so to does his metal.  Which would be intermingled with the raw materials used to build a planet, and maybe so interlinked that it must be refined out.

 

I know I'm stretching, but I do not think that I am outside the realm of plausibility.5

 

As for removing investiture, are you sure?  We have seen Investiture be wiped from something before - by Larkins and Nightblood.  On Nalthis, people give up their investiture.  The rules are flexible for how investiture is contained in an object.  Ad, if his investiture was taken up by the 16, it cannot still be in what remains of his vessel.  It is gone.  Not destroyed, but gone nonetheless.  The energy is transformed, not duplicated.  It is like heat, if you have a bar of metal, red hot and transfer the heat to ice, the ice melts and boils and the bar loses energy.  The energyu is transformed and gone from the metal, but still exists.  Adonalsium's investiture was taken by the 16.  Thermodynamics cannot allow his remains to still have that energy, duplication is not allowed right?

 

And finally, there is so much we do not know about god metals, I think it is premature to make definitive statements about what can and cannot be.

 

As a further thought - Yes, the 16 god metals are not naturally occuring, and appear pure.  Atium grows out of Geode bulbs.  Lerasium and Harmonium, we do not know.  Tanavastium and Cultivationium condense out of thin air when spren need physical form.  None of that is natural.  This could be because, when Adonalsium was around, and his investiture permeated everything, it was in balance.  So his godmetal growing in Volcanoes could be realistic.  But when shattered, and 16 new godlings appeared, the Cosmere had to react and instantly create 16 new elements.  Of course they are going to appear pure, and not interlinked with the rest of the natural world.  They are new and unnatural, the natural world does not know how to cope.  But Adonalsium was part of everything, so his metal being intertwined with the core of planets feels right to me.

 

But I could be wrong, and a lot of people dislike this theory.  Which is cool, I do not presume enough to call it anything other than a theory.

 

An alternate could be, if it is not a godmetal, seeing as Aluminum has a natural immunity to Investiture, that Aluminum is the prime component to the weapon the 16 used to kill Adonalsium.  And as a result, it rejects investiture's influence.  I don't like this as much as thinking Aluminum is a god metal, but it could work.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Stark
More thoughts

[Fatikis]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

I figure that if Adonalsium was involved in everything, and hios investiture permeates everything, than so to does his metal.  Which would be intermingled with the raw materials used to build a planet, and maybe so interlinked that it must be refined out.

I know I'm stretching, but I do not think that I am outside the realm of plausibility.

That doesn't hold up to logic. If Adonalsium is dead his metal would not continue to form in places that didn't exist before the shattering. Ati and Leras both permeated all of Scadrial there are no new reserves of their metals now that they are dead.
 

Quote

As for removing investiture, are you sure?  We have seen Investiture be wiped from something before - by Larkins and Nightblood.  On Nalthis, people give up their investiture.  The rules are flexible for how investiture is contained in an object.  Ad, if his investiture was taken up by the 16, it cannot still be in what remains of his vessel.  It is gone.  Not destroyed, but gone nonetheless.  The energy is transformed, not duplicated.  It is like heat, if you have a bar of metal, red hot and transfer the heat to ice, the ice melts and boils and the bar loses energy.  The energyu is transformed and gone from the metal, but still exists.  Adonalsium's investiture was taken by the 16.  Thermodynamics cannot allow his remains to still have that energy, duplication is not allowed right?

I don't know what you mean. With god metals you aren't using investiture stored in the metal. They are investiture. You can't remove the investiture from investiture. There is nothing about Larkins, Nightblood, or Nalthis that contradict this. The rules aren't flexible here. Larkin's are converting stormlight into mass. Nightblood seems to be powering itself with the investiture it takes. The people of Nalthis aren't really doing anything like that. They are giving up a portion of their investiture as breath. They themselves still contain investiture of their soul. Even Drabs have souls. Just less soul.

Well we know for a fact that yes the investiture remains in the god metal. That is how atium exists. Which continues to exist in Marsh. Thermodynamics does not come into play with this. Not all of the power of a shard is metal. The metal is basically a bit of extra investiture not directly tied to the shard. That is why Ruin's power was put in metal. It was no longer a usable chunk of power for Ruin. It is not directly part of him. (Thermodynamics does come into play it always does but not in a way that supports you.)

Quote

And finally, there is so much we do not know about god metals, I think it is premature to make definitive statements about what can and cannot be.

I disagree. It is not different than claiming there aren't unicorns. There is no current evidence that supports unicorns.
 

Quote

As a further thought - Yes, the 16 god metals are not naturally occuring, and appear pure.  Atium grows out of Geode bulbs.  Lerasium and Harmonium, we do not know.  Tanavastium and Cultivationium condense out of thin air when spren need physical form.  None of that is natural.  This could be because, when Adonalsium was around, and his investiture permeated everything, it was in balance.  So his godmetal growing in Volcanoes could be realistic.  But when shattered, and 16 new godlings appeared, the Cosmere had to react and instantly create 16 new elements.  Of course they are going to appear pure, and not interlinked with the rest of the natural world.  They are new and unnatural, the natural world does not know how to cope.  But Adonalsium was part of everything, so his metal being intertwined with the core of planets feels right to me.

That still doesn't hold up to logic. You are essentially claiming that Adonalsium's god metal isn't a god metal. It is too many unreasonable leaps.

Any god metal of Adonalsium would still be invested. The investiture was not directly connected to Adon and would exist after his shattering.