[OB] Finished reading, felt a burning need to share my thoughts

[JasnahKholin]

I don't know exactly where to start.  Oathbringer, like the two SA books before it, put me into a reading frenzy and I finished it in a couple days.  I really enjoyed it, very few books keep me enraptured like Sanderson's do.  I've occasionally lurked here and on the SA subreddit but I have some complicated feelings regarding this book that I need to write down and share.  I don't know how to feel exactly because, on the surface, OB is far and away one of my favorite fantasy books.  It's a personal 5-star for me, same as the other two in the series, because it's rare that any form of media puts me in a state where I can't bear to put it down for longer than it takes to make food.  But I have this vague feeling that I can't really explain fully, that somehow the book left me unsatisfied compared to the other two.  Again, that isn't to say I thought the book was bad or that I didn't enjoy it immensely, which is why the book seems undeserving(?) of dissatisfaction.

But I want to convey my positive feelings as well, so here's a list of pros:

• HOLY CRAP I really enjoyed Dalinar's character arc throughout the three books.  He honestly may have slid into first place in front of Kaladin for my favorite, most well-developed character.  The amount of pain he went through coming to terms with the man he used to be was heartbreaking, especially when he tried his best yet everything seemed to slip out of his grasp anyway when the Coalition fell apart.  It was especially sad on the reader's end because the reader knows the entire time that Dalinar's actions and persona were largely influenced by Nergaoul, but Dalinar had to deal with it as if the Thrill was all caused by his own monstrosity.  And when he truly comes to terms with everything about himself, defying Odium right after Renarin has you convinced that Dalinar will end up becoming Odium's champion in a 180 twist...that was a roller coaster ride.  I got those weird chills up my spine at that moment, the ones you get when seeing something really epic.
• I'm actually pretty glad Kaladin had some severe mental hang-ups and failed to protect Elhokar.  I've always thought that the whole "protect everyone" idealism he had was sadly unrealistic in war, and I'm really glad Sanderson chose to shove that truth right into Kaladin's face.  Hopefully we see the result of that next book.  Personally I want to see Kaladin become a bit "harder," kind of like Kelsier, although I have a feeling that I'll enjoy wherever Sanderson takes the character.
• Learning more about the Cognitive Realm, the Warbreaker characters, and the other Shards was a real treat, and I'm sure there are a whole host of easter eggs I missed and will see when I inevitably reread the book.  I really hope we get a Warbreaker 2 that bridges the gap between the first book and the characters entering Roshar.
• The Unmade were a treat to finally see in the flesh, and I can't wait for more to appear.  The effects of the Heart of the Revel were particularly disturbing to see manifested, and I like that the Unmade aren't necessarily bad because they choose to be.  They simply are what they are.  They remind me a lot of Lovecraft, from their names to the way they're described, and in my book more Lovecraftian horrors is always a good thing.
• The Bridge 4 POVs were largely enjoyable, especially Rock's.  I just fricking love Rock, and I really hope Sanderson delves into the mental consequences of him killing Amaram in the next book seeing how opposed Rock was to fighting.  I really liked Rlain's POV too.  Looking into his inner thoughts about how he's casually ignored by others was pretty eye-opening, because I realized that I myself had developed the tendency to forget Rlain was even a character.  You really have to feel for the guy, his people are gone, the other Parshmen are being conscripted into the forces of insane gods, and the only people he can truly call friends unintentionally leave him out all the time.  
• Adolin grows on me the more I read him.  I didn't like him that much for most of WoK, he grew on me throughout WoR, and at this point I can confidently say I just plain like him.  He's been thrust into a world where everyone around him is now basically a living god out of legend.  His father, his brother (who he had always been more important than, let's be honest), his girlfriend, and his friend/friendly rival who his girlfriend may or may not have the hots for.  And does he succumb to jealousy or resentment like most people in his situation would do?  No, in fact he does the opposite and remains cool, confident, friendly, and all-around likable.  And I REALLY liked how Sanderson gave us a glimpse into Adolin's mindset regarding all this.  Of course he has insecurities regarding the whole situation, who wouldn't?  But the fact that he never let those insecurities control him really solidified my appreciation for his character.
• Jasnah was, as she always is, a badass.  We REALLY need to see her journey throughout WoR. 
•  Our first glimpse of Odium was amazing.  "No, Dalinar.  I'm the other one."  CHILLS went down my spine.  Sanderson really did a great job conveying to the read just how massive and otherworldly Odium's true self is.  Also, I know this is another planet and all, but with most races on Roshar being visually similar to some sort of Asian/Indian/Middle Eastern and the Shin being noticeably "white," am I the only one who thought of Odium as evil Dumbledore or Gandalf the White when Sanderson described his appearance in Dalinar's vision?

To be honest, I can keep going on and on about what I liked, so now I'll go into what I feel were the cons, and the reasons I have a vague unsatisfied feeling:

I feel like several seemingly important plot threads were sort of brushed over, if that's the right phrase. 

• Jasnah's return didn't really elicit much reaction from Navani and the others, despite Navani's feelings about Shallan being repeatedly emphasized in the last book.  It felt kind of like Jasnah's entire journey never happened, like all the characters just sort of went "alright she's back, moving on."  I know it's the end of the world and all that, but I feel like more character thoughts about Jasnah's "death" would have drastically improved my sense of immersion in the book.
• Another one, possibly the most important, was Szeth joining the team.  You're telling me no one, especially Dalinar could spare a few paragraphs thinking about whether letting in the storming Assassin in White was a good idea?  Sure, he helped out in the battle, but that could have just been a convenient way to fool them into letting him in.  Why wasn't he tossed in jail and interrogated?  Next thing we see, Dalinar's just letting him guard him as if it's the most normal thing in the world.
• I didn't notice it as I was reading because the events engrossed me so much, but Taln and Ash appearing as if they were going to help Dalinar's side in the final battle and then just being offscreened for the entire thing was really disappointing.  It felt like the entire sequence including them was pointless, just a way for Dalinar to check off two more boxes on his Radiants checklist before being sidelined.  The same goes for Jezrien being killed.  I had such high hopes Renarin or somebody would find a way to slowly alleviate his madness and he would become a much more important character in the future.  His entire presence in the books seems so pointless.
• I feel like Shallan's entire love triangle thing was solved too quickly and painlessly.  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a fan of a love triangle developing in the first place, but at this point it kind of seems like Sanderson intended for her and Kaladin to get together and then quickly changed his mind halfway through writing the story.  Even Shallan and Adolin's wedding was completely offscreened.

In addition, upon looking back after finishing the book I feel like OB was sorely lacking in meaningful interactions between the POV characters.  We got a lot of individual thoughts and actions of everyone, but I was really looking forward to all the potential dialogue between Kaladin and Jasnah, Kaladin and Shallan/Adolin (which we got a little of), Lift and the other Radiants, etc.  I especially wanted to see Wit follow up on his interactions with Jasnah from the end of WoR, since it seemed like he was treating Jasnah as a bit more of an "adult" on the Cosmere playing field if that makes sense.  The dialogue between characters that we did get was great, I have no complaints.  I loved Lift's first impression of Dalinar's tight butt.  But I kind of feel like I was expecting more dialogue, like one combined story rather than multiple separate stories that lightly brush up against each other and then converge in the last part.  

I'll end my thoughts with that, honestly I could probably write a thesis on these books and I have a feeling that what I wrote is already way too long.  If you bothered reading great, but regardless, I'm curious if anyone else felt a little "conflicted" about OB - how great it is VS the void of expectation it doesn't quite fill compared to books 1 and 2. 

[Angsos]

1. I think the journey will be very important but Jasnah's book is book 10 so who

2. I think there will be suspicion of Szeth but when armageddon comes, you save second thoughts for later

3. Taln is in no condition to help and Ash is, mostly whole. They might have been a case of too much to say and not enough space. We'll get more in Book 4 I'm sure.

4. I think the love triangle is in abayance but I don't think it's done. It got resolved fast because Shallan was strong enough to suppress Veil but it's not over. Until Shallan puts herself together, I don't think it will be.

P.S. Welcome

[Song she/her]

I agree with pretty much everything you said! I didn't mind the love triangle resolution, though I feel like Shallan's issues were brushed over a bit to give the book more of a resolution than her arc had earned.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I see your point with most of these things, and it is something that a lot of people have talked about. The love triangle for example has a thread with around 80 pages of discussion and debate. I feel like OB is the most divisive SA book this far, to be honest. 

To adress some of your points:

-Szeth: Jasnah does comment on his presence during the battle, and Taravangian then explains that he was behind a lot of the damage Szeth caused. It is also possible that Dalinar spoke to Szeth off-screen after the battle. So I think this makes sense.

 -Jezrien: I like the fact that he got killed is something I like. It was quite a twist, and it sets up new mysteries, such what the dagger is, or if Moash will be a certified Herald-killer. I also think it adds to Moash's story. Jezriens death also makes us worried for the other Heralds. It shows us that they can die.

Welcome to the forums!

[What's a Seawolf?]

The Szeth thing I agree completely with, my only other issue being the underwhelming nature of the Recreance (as it's been presented so far.)  That said I absolutely LOVED the book, for the reasons you mentioned and more.

For a small time I felt a possibly similar unsatisfied feeling despite loving it, but the more I thought about it, I felt that way because the book did SO much.  So many open questions and threads (that we thought would take 5 books) were resolved in OB, and it does not feel like an equal number of new questions (for us to fantasize/theorize over like madmen) have been opened up.

I can't go into much right now, but after tWoK and WoR it felt like we had a hundred questions and mysteries and paths the story could take.  OB resolved and gave answers to many of those.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@JasnahKholin First of all, welcome to the forums!

Anyway, I do agree with most of your points and I also agree that the book almost left me feeling unsatisfied because there was so much. As for your points, I disagree with most of them.

• When it comes to the Jasnah thing, I think the main thing there is just the world is literally ending, so the fact that she had actually been alive the entire time is just another thing added onto the huge pile of impossible things happening. I'm sure she explained to them that she survived because she's a Radiant, so the others probably wouldn't see much of a need to worry about that now that she's back.
• I think the Szeth thing is very similar to the situation with Jasnah. Plus, they already know that Szeth did what he did because of King T, and I bet Szeth probably briefly described the oathstone and why he followed it to Dalinar and co.
• I agree that Taln and Ash showing up and not doing anything didn't make much narrative sense to me. But, in world, it makes sense why they didn't really play a huge part in the battle. Neither of them had their honorblade, so there wasn't much they could even do if they wanted to.
• As for Jezrien, I think his death was very important. First of all, it shows us that the Heralds are not perfect and can be killed. It also lets us realize just how powerful Odium's side is and what our heroes are really up against. What really makes that scene work for me is that this Desolation is all about new things and new dangers and anything new can happen. The heroes can't rely upon the Heralds for help simply because they're Heralds.
• I think the love triangle was resolved pretty well, actually. I don't think Shallan and Adolin are gonna have an easy relationship, but I'd much rather read about them struggling through making a marriage work than more of the same love triangle stuff and the lust between Shallan and Kaladin.

Overall, I felt OB was the best book by far, but it was not a perfect book. There were many things that it could've done a lot better, but what it did well it did AMAZINGLY. The Dalinar arc, the switcharoo between Eshonai and Venli, the Shadesmar arc, Kaladin failing over and over again. It was all so good that I can forgive the few faults. It was way better on the reread because I knew what was going to happen and could see everything being set up so masterfully.

[Wyndlerunner he/him]

@JasnahKholin, Welcome! I definitely agree that Oathbringer was the "Reading frenzy" type of book- I had it on me at all times and read every second I could, to the point that after finishing it in 3 days some of my friends questioned my sanity. (but then again, I already know I'm not entirely sane). I honestly rate OB as Brandon's best work to date. I do however wish that we saw Shallan and Adolin's actual wedding ceremony (if only for my selfish satisfaction that my ship came out on top), that might have added a bit more closure to the ending. However, I've begun to see OB as the middle act of the "Trilogy" of the front 5 SA books, so much like how the ending of "The Empire Strikes Back", has little overall plot closure- OB must fulfill that same role for the front half of SA. So I'm fairly sure that "Song of Secrets" (my totally non-canon dream name for SA 4) will begin the process of adding a bit more plot closure to this first half of Stormlight

[RShara she/her]

19 hours ago, Wyndlerunner said:

So I'm fairly sure that "Song of Secrets" (my totally non-canon dream name for SA 4) will begin the process of adding a bit more plot closure to this first half of Stormlight

Nooo.  If it's Song of Secrets, it will mess up our acronym system!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Nooo.  If it's Song of Secrets, it will mess up our acronym system!

We'll just call it SoSxl, because it will defenitely be bigger.

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Nooo.  If it's Song of Secrets, it will mess up our acronym system!

What acronym system?

[RShara she/her]

For the book titles.  So SoS is currently Shadows of Self.  If the next book is Song of Secrets, it would also be SoS.  Bad!

[What's a Seawolf?]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Nooo.  If it's Song of Secrets, it will mess up our acronym system!

Don't worry, based on past precedence of in world books appearing on screen in the hands of characters, Song of Secrets will not be the title.

Clearly it will be called 'An Accountability of Virtue.'

[Wyndlerunner he/him]

4 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Don't worry, based on past precedence of in world books appearing on screen in the hands of characters, Song of Secrets will not be the title.

Clearly it will be called 'An Accountability of Virtue.'

I went with "Song of Secrets" because of the Listener focus we'll have in SA 4- and the songs are about as close to books the Listener's have. (Although I could get behind "An Accountability of Virtue")

[MountainKing]

36 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

I went with "Song of Secrets" because of the Listener focus we'll have in SA 4- and the songs are about as close to books the Listener's have. (Although I could get behind "An Accountability of Virtue")

The listeners do have have books, book versions of their songs.

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, Wyndlerunner said:

I went with "Song of Secrets" because of the Listener focus we'll have in SA 4- and the songs are about as close to books the Listener's have. (Although I could get behind "An Accountability of Virtue")

Yeah I know what it's from and why.  I just hope it's not the case because acronyms

[ZenBossanova]

Bad books are hard to critique, because there is just so much lukewarm mediocrity. The fact we can criticize, means we have something of quality to begin with.

That said, I had some complaints as well. 

On 4/16/2018 at 6:55 PM, JasnahKholin said:

Jezrien being killed

This is not one of my complaints. This death was fantastically anti-climatic, which is appropriate for someone who has been a drunk for the several millennia. It was sad to see someone that powerful and knowledgeable go away that easily, but that really was the right end for him. Plus, now we know can't have all the heralds, they are not completely immortal, and the oathpact is partly in the hands of Odium. 

 

On 4/16/2018 at 6:55 PM, JasnahKholin said:

Shallan's entire love triangle thing was solved too quickly and painlessly

I really think Kaladin was too honorable to steal his friend's girl, anyway. He had a bit of a connection there, and some feelings, but this really was Shallan's journey. Kaladin had done very little to act on this triangle. Besides, this book had more than enough Shallan. I would have preferred less of her, honestly. 

 

On 4/16/2018 at 6:55 PM, JasnahKholin said:

Jasnah's return didn't really elicit much reaction

The only reaction we saw was Shallan's. My guess is, we are going to see a lot more Jasnah in the next book. 

On 4/16/2018 at 6:55 PM, JasnahKholin said:

Szeth joining the team

Dalinar's call, but yes, we need to see how everyone reacts here. Kaladin already expressed worries. But mostly, it is a case of too much happening too fast. Fallout in the next book. 

 

On 4/16/2018 at 6:55 PM, JasnahKholin said:

lacking in meaningful interactions between the POV characters

I would agree with this, or at least that I crave more. 

 

On 4/17/2018 at 10:08 AM, What's a Seawolf? said:

underwhelming nature of the Recreance (as it's been presented so far.)

This is my number on gripe. Seriously. The Final Desolation happened roughly as far back as the end of the Bronze Age. How many of us can even tell a Sumerian from a Hittite, or what happened with Old Kingdom Egyptians vs the Sea People? This one really annoyed me, but let's see it better explained in book 4. 

 

On 4/17/2018 at 3:30 PM, Wyndlerunner said:

"Song of Secrets" (my totally non-canon dream name for SA 4)

I dig that. 

There was another thread that complained about Taravangian. But I will just say, Odium should be a lot more suspicious of Mr T, no matter how much he appears to be working for him. Odium talked to Mr T on one of his slow or ordinary days. Just wait for the genius days. 

[Wandering Investor]

I completely understand the vague sense of dissatisfaction. I felt it too. Oathbringer was a good good book, but I couldn't call it a great book for reasons I couldn't quite figure out. Best I can tell, there is too much going on. Not everything can be touched on, because there are simply too many plot lines for each to get a lot of screen time. For instance, I'm sure there were plenty of tears and happy reunions with Jasnah, but it just wasn't touched on, not that it didn't happen. 

But of course, the massive scope of SA is part of the reason I love the series, so I wouldn't want less plot lines. But that still means it has to cut corners somewhere, which prevents it from being amazing. I suspect that once the 4th and 5th books, at least, come out, OB will become much more enjoyable as we'll have better context for what's going on, instead of the wonderful, but at times vague and confusing, story it is right now. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 4/18/2018 at 3:08 PM, RShara said:

For the book titles.  So SoS is currently Shadows of Self.  If the next book is Song of Secrets, it would also be SoS.  Bad!

Has everyone but Yata forgotten about how it's actually tWoK? Calling SA4 "The Song of Secrets" is fully viable, especially since it's not a set-in-print book but an oral history. Oral titles tend to have a little bit of variance to them, so it being "the song of secrets" in print, "song of secrets" to the Parsh, and "Listener Song of Secrets" in the epigraphs isn't that big of a stretch. Just look at the aforementioned "WoK" debacle, and that title actually is set-in-print.

On 4/18/2018 at 10:24 PM, ZenBossanova said:

This is my number on gripe. Seriously. The Final Desolation happened roughly as far back as the end of the Bronze Age. How many of us can even tell a Sumerian from a Hittite, or what happened with Old Kingdom Egyptians vs the Sea People? This one really annoyed me, but let's see it better explained in book 4. 

If you don't mind me asking, what about it annoyed you/didn't feel thoroughly explained?

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

On 4/18/2018 at 8:24 PM, ZenBossanova said:

This is my number on gripe. Seriously. The Final Desolation happened roughly as far back as the end of the Bronze Age. How many of us can even tell a Sumerian from a Hittite, or what happened with Old Kingdom Egyptians vs the Sea People? This one really annoyed me, but let's see it better explained in book 4. 

If you don't mind me asking, what about it annoyed you/didn't feel thoroughly explained?

Oathbringer seemed to be saying that Humans were the original badguys/voidbringers, and that is why the Recreance happened. And the entire collation fell apart because of that. And for this reason, we are wrong to be fighting the Singers/Listeners.

That is a weak reason. We have a hard time telling what happened that long ago. How many of us can even point on the map to where the Hittites are from? Or the Mycenaeans?

Even if that were entirely true, why would that keep people from fighting the Desolation? 

There are some WoB that soften this idea, but still, as presented in Oathbringer, it really seemed to be a weak reason for something that is incredibly fundamental to the entire story. 

[RShara she/her]

The Stormfather said that it was due to the genuine fear that the KR would destroy Roshar, as they did Ashyn. That plus their god basically promising them that they would destroy the planet, and they probably thought they were doing it for the greater good.  As for killing their spren, here's my "The spren were in on it" theory:

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, ZenBossanova said:

Oathbringer seemed to be saying that Humans were the original badguys/voidbringers, and that is why the Recreance happened. And the entire collation fell apart because of that. And for this reason, we are wrong to be fighting the Singers/Listeners.

That is a weak reason. We have a hard time telling what happened that long ago. How many of us can even point on the map to where the Hittites are from? Or the Mycenaeans?

Even if that were entirely true, why would that keep people from fighting the Desolation? 

There are some WoB that soften this idea, but still, as presented in Oathbringer, it really seemed to be a weak reason for something that is incredibly fundamental to the entire story. 

The Cause of the Recreance shouldn't have much bearing on the current people, and they should keep fighting their Desolation. On this, we agree.

But the reasoning for the Recreance itself was fine. The "voidbringer reveal" and the "ashyn reveal" seem like weak reasons because on there own, they are. Brandon has given us a majority of the reasons for it across multiple books, and hasn't had a character put the pieces together. Those last few reveals were more of a "the last straw" than the entire reason, as you think Oathbringer wants us to believe(Having not read the book, I can't speak to the tone of how it was presented)

I tried putting the pieces together in the "Recreance Cause Elaborated" in my sig, and I think the overall reasoning is solid. It just requires thought because Brandon hasn't saw fit to just spell it out for us yet.

[LadyLameness]

I also was kind of unsatisfied after my first read through and it highly amuses me that why I felt like this was what launched me head first into Cosmere conspiracy theories and the 17th Shard and resulted in me liking OB even more (and I thoroughly liked it the first time through) on subsequent read throughs. 

The main issue I had with OB was the translation of the Eila Stele and the Humans = Voidbringers revelation. I was disappointed with it as a plot twist as it seemed too simple an answer and it also felt very trope-y which isn't in Sanderson's style. I decided that was probably the point - it was meant to bring up red flags so after finishing OB I promptly started the series again to try and make sense of the mess of theories in my brain because god darn it I refuse to be dissatisfied by this. 

[Patrick Star]

Whenever I picture Odium, I keep thinking of Fuhrer Bradly (Wrath) from Fullmetal Alchemist.

This is decidedly a good thing.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Patrick Star

[hypatia she/her]

For me this "great revelation" had had the effect that I'm nearly salivating for book 4.

Whereas I can't decide if this part of the history really is the truth and nothing but the truth, there are hints from the Listener side which are able to chamge everything again.

The story starts with the so called Parshendi assassineting Gavilar.

When you look then Dalinar and co.don't know the real reason - no, it wasn't because they were upset about the Parshmen.

But what's more - even the Parshmen don't know what had happened - Odium forces Venli to tell them a lie.

And why?

Because at a time in history a group of Singers had done something similiar like the Radiants - they broke their bond to their Shard.

Why would they do this, if it is just humans=aggressors and Singers=victims?

And it should be a very good story when the truth for Gavilar's dead was in fact not to free the Parshmen or to fight against the humans, but to hinder the return of Odium - even for the price of extinction.

This - especially that Odium sees the need to give the Parshmen a lie for what had happened in the first 2 books - is the reason why I doubt him being on the side of the Parshmen.

We need the other half of the history - the story of the Lost Legion and their motivations.

And I really nearly lost it when we left Venli in OB just at the moment when she started to tell the Parshmen on the ship about the ways and history of the Listeners.

[Vissy]

Only thing I can say, I agree with this a lot, and Kelsier would definitely agree with more people becoming like him!  Especially if it involves spikes and consciousness-transfers 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Vissy