[OB] Will Shallan ever find a good (girl) friend?

[Dreamstorm]

Not romantic girlfriend (though nothing against that), but an actual friend who is a girl (young lady, woman, what have you) to be a confidante and support person who is not her superior (Jasnah, Navani) or her romantic partner.  This is something Shallan has been sorely missing in her life, given as she was so isolated growing up.  Is this a relationship Shallan is even capable of forming given her upbringing?  Are there any good candidates in the book at the moment?  Perhaps this will be the function of the mysterious (sorta) May Aladar?  Perhaps Laral (should Hearthstone move to Urithiru)?

[Delightful]

Thats a really good point. She doesnt really have any friends. 

[BraidedRose]

She absolutely needs one! I can’t think of any obvious candidates. There aren’t a lot of young female named characters around  (Ishnah? Lyn? Lift?). Syl likes her so there is that!

I know this will probably never happen but I would love her to meet and make friends with Rysn.

[StormingTexan]

That is a good point and she was raised in a mainly male house. I mean besides the mother she killed. What about Lyn? I kinda see her as the type of young lady that is perfectly fine hanging out with the guys though. Now that I think about it there is VERY little female friendship in SA... 

[Jofwu]

This is something Brandon seems to overlook often. Sarene, Vin, Vivenna, Siri, Shallan, Marasi.... NONE of his leading ladies ever seem to have a close female friend.

Shallan could really use one, too. Fingers crossed?

[Clytie]

I am hopeful that Shallan will get a female friend, or two, or a whole squad would be lovely! I am a big proponent of women supporting each other and I would love this for her.

I think she and Ishnah could eventually be friends, I also agree that May could be a candidate. I would LOVE to see Shallan and Laral, especially with how much growing up Laral has done. I could see Shallan being a big sister figure to LIft, but also, I think Lift will call her on her crem, which I think could help her grow quite a bit. Whereas Adolin might say her personas are concerning, LIft is going to straight up tell her that she is starving breaking herself or something. I also think, being queen, Jasnah may need some support as well, and now that Shallan is married to Adolin, it levels their playing field just a little bit, which may help their relationship. ( Also this is my first post, woo?)

[Dreamstorm]

@misskassiekynn Welcome!!  And I'm glad you like the idea of Laral as a friend too.  She's not exactly a fan favorite (with defending Roshone (who is awful) and all), but I see her as a quite sympathetic character given the situations she was thrust into.  I think her and Shallan could have a lot in common, as they both grew up isolated (Shallan from everyone, Laral because of her status) in the countryside and influenced by less-than-ideal role models, plus were forced into pretty terrible situations (Shallan's was worse, but Laral's father died when she was young, and she was fostered and then forced to marry into a terrible family.)  If I'm going to fanfic this up, I would have Roshone die, and Shallan befriending Laral while she's getting acquainted to Urithiru and flirting with the idea of dating again.  Shallan and Laral giggling over boys?  Shallan might never get to experience herself what is for many a young woman a rite of passage, but maybe she can through Laral 

@Jofwu That's a good point about all of Brandon's young female characters... I guess Shallan really stands out to me because she's not nobility (which I imagine is incredibly isolating, can't say I have personal experience with this though, lol) or from the streets.  Marasi though is really odd now that you mention it.  Where are her friends??  Wasn't she at university?  Hmmm....

@StormingTexan I feel like Shallan already blew off Lyn at the beginning of OB, so if I was Lyn I'd be a bit skeptical.  Lyn has female friends from what we can tell (her scribe turned squire crew), and Shallan totally rejected the overtures of friendship.  Now, I know some of that was Patternblade connected (and all that goes along with that in Shallan's mind), but that's part of why I wonder if Shallan even knows how to interact with a female friend.  (And poof goes my Laral fanfic, boo.  Edit: and the Wandersail one below.)

@BraidedRose I'm totally into the idea of Rysn.  If Shallan shows up in Wandersail, I will collapse in happiness.  Shallan and Rysn on a girls trip to... the Origin..? 

[Isilel]

I don't see why Jasnah can't become a friend eventually, once Shallan matures a bit and their relationship changes accordingly. I really hope that Ishnah may become a friend, instead of betraying Shallan to the Ghostbloods - they are interested in some of the same things and it would be nice to see her befriend a dark-eyes and begin to overcome her classism. Not to mention that Shallan could learn from her what it was actually like, instead of spinning fiction like she did with Veil so far. Balat's betrothed/maybe now wife Eylita, who stood by the Davars through thick and thin has just arrived to Urithiru when OB ended. She is allegedly not quite up to Shallan's level intellectually, but friendship might still be possible.

But yea, I was kinda annoyed when Shallan's followers and prospective squires turned out all to be ex-soldier dudes, until Ishnah muscled her way in. Here is to hoping that she isn't some kind of plant or spy and won't be tempted to become one. I'd still like it if some female artists or musicians eventually found their way into the ranks of Lightweavers and their squires. I always appreciated how different this Order seemed to be than stereotypical "knights", and looking for different people only to then  have folks like Vathah and Elhokar joining them, who didn't display any artistic inclinations at all.  I can only assume that Red is next, sigh....

[Naurock]

53 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

This is something Brandon seems to overlook often. Sarene, Vin, Vivenna, Siri, Shallan, Marasi.... NONE of his leading ladies ever seem to have a close female friend.

Shallan could really use one, too. Fingers crossed?

While this list makes it look really bad, if you dissect it a bit I think it's easy to explain.

1) Sarene was sent to marry a guy in a different country and did build a small group of friends, but was she supposed to bring a gaggle of girls with her?

2) Vin was an orphan, in a thieving group. They were friends, but... It was completely everyone for themselves.

3) Vivenna ran away and brought a friend, granted a guy.

4) Siri, this was Brandon's choice to isolate her. Put her in over her head and she had to figure out who she could trust on her own.

5) Good Lord, get Shallan ANY help. She needs it.

6) Marasi kinda chose this path herself wouldn't you say? She wanted to be in a male dominated career field to prove her worth. And she's done that! She's become stronger, found herself and is making her own way.

[Jofwu]

@Naurock I think the explanations are a little flimsy though. I dunno, I actually didn't notice this myself. My wife noticed the lack of these friendships and brought it up at some point. (can't remember the context) Even if the explanations are solid... Brandon is the one writing the story, and there's no reason he couldn't take a different approach in most of these cases. I suspect it's a mix of him not thinking about it or him not being comfortable (reasonably so) with it. I don't mean to be very critical of him for this. It's just something I think is a little lacking.

Wouldn't have been hard to let Sarene develop a close friendship with someone in Arelon. Vin had a rough past, but she opened up to a few people eventually--just none of them women. Vivenna and Siri are definitely more difficult to do this with without bigger structural changes--agreed there. My take on Marasi is that she's just kind of nerdy and introverted--not the type to make close friends at university. That's understandable. More than anything with her, I'd like to see her relationship with Steris develop. But this is all WAY off topic. I've said my piece.

Concerning Shallan... It makes sense we haven't seen a friendship like this with her. As a child she clearly just didn't get this kind of opportunity. In TWoK there just wasn't really space to get into this, and she left Kharbranth behind anyways so you couldn't develop anything long-term. We got to see something maybe similar with Tyn. Probably our best example of what Shallan would look like with a friend. But of course that relationship wasn't quite one of peers, and in any case it was covered in layer upon layer of lies (from both sides).

May and Laral both have potential. Maaaybe Lyn could work? I think someone darkeyed (not sure who though) would be a really good option--seems to me it would be good for Shallan to connect more with someone from the lower class. (on top of the other benefits to this)

[Naurock]

@Jofwu I agree to a point and that's why I liked the original list, because I never really noticed this either. Sarene is the most egregious example. 

But Steris and Marasi are hard, because they have a deep reason why their relationship why could never progress. Marasi is a constant reminder of her father's indescretion. Steris is a constant reminder of the life Marasi could have had. 

So the conclusion we must draw is there are two possible options: Brandon does not know how to do girl talk or he just likes writing strong, independent women who are on a journey of self discovery.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Naurock

[Vissy]

Seems obvious that this is a weakness in Sanderson's writing. He's done a lot to try to get better at writing women, but he's never been good at writing them well. This is just a part of that problem. It's more like a lack of perspective almost. Does his wife not have any female friends? Doesn't she bring it up to him at all, or does she even read his books?

[Dreamstorm]

@Jofwu I think university is exactly where nerdy, introverted girls find friends! I guess it depends on the college (maybe Elendel = big 10 party school), but there are niches everywhere, and a lot of people with time on their hands. I find in the real world - with a real job and lots of other competing responsibilities - that’s where it can be hard for an introvert to find others to connect with. Massive diversion, haha! But now that you mentioned it, I’m bothered but Marasi’s lack of university friends (male or female.) I’m sure it doesn’t help a woman even going to university in that era was a bit odds. Maybe MB3 will show a better diversity of female friendships. 

After the diversion on that, I think @Jofwuand @Isilel make a good point about Shallan making friends outside her prescribed class. If I was Lyn, I would be, um... you better prove yourself, but Ishnah is a great choice. In retrospect, it would have been nice to see things develop a bit more in that direction in OB. (Does Shallan wonder once about what happened to Ishnah and Vathah after Kholinar? Oh Shallan...)

[CrazyRioter]

It'd be nice if Shallan found a female friend I agree, and I also agree that it's a weakness of Brandon's writing that his female characters don't have female friends.

Brandon's pretty good at writing women as people, but he does fall down on this point. I think a lot of male writers fall down on this point.

[Song]

I have been thinking about this for a while. It probably goes without saying that if Shallan had a friend on equal level that she trusted then maybe she could process her past rather than avoiding it. Pattern plays that role a little but just isn't quite the right personality to help.

It was one of the things that hurt when Jasnah seemed to die. It looked like they were about to properly bond, Shallan saw her pain and wanted to help, Jasnah finally had someone who believed her. It had the makings of a terrific friendship, it got cut off, and the time away has pulled them apart.

I think Jasnah needs to be that friend, because under her resentment Shallan respects her. And Jasnah needs a more emotional friend to move forward as a character.

My theory is that someone (probably Adolin, maybe Kaladin) will have to say to Jasnah in the next book something like this: Jasnah, Shallan needs a friend more than a tutor. And so do you. Just open up to her about what is really going on with you, and see what happens.

[Zelly]

....Iyatil.

Sure she's a worldhopping member of the Ghostbloods of unknown age and motives, but I think she and Shallan had some good time together.  There's some two way respect there.  It could bloom.

Depending on what the Ghostbloods are really after.

[Jofwu]

49 minutes ago, Song said:

I think Jasnah needs to be that friend, because under her resentment Shallan respects her. And Jasnah needs a more emotional friend to move forward as a character.

Huh. I actually think Jasnah could never really be that sort of friend. But then I guess I've been assuming their relationship will always be an unequal one. This is all even more true with Jasnah as queen. But that's certainly an interesting idea.

44 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

....Iyatil.

Oooooh, now that's an interesting idea.

I'm thinking Ishnah is the best person for the job, but Iyatil would certainly be an interesting person to take it.

[BraidedRose]

1 hour ago, Song said:

My theory is that someone (probably Adolin, maybe Kaladin) will have to say to Jasnah in the next book something like this: Jasnah, Shallan needs a friend more than a tutor. And so do you. Just open up to her about what is really going on with you, and see what happens.

I think you are right that something like this would have to happen before Jasnah and Shallan could be friends. I think as long as they have a mentor-ward relationship it would be very hard to get past that.

But I also think not just Jasnah but Shallan as well would need some kind of push before she would open up to Jasnah. Jasnah tried to get her to open up a bit and tell her some of the secrets she knew Shallan must be hiding but Shallan didn’t even bite a little bit. She currently seems to have some major baggage where Jasnah is concerned that she would have to get over for it to work. I’d love to read it, if it goes that way though.

[Vissy]

Iyatil would be interesting to explore. I hope they end up becoming friends!

[Toaster Retribution]

Rysn would be cool. I'll throw in Jenet as well. The stablemaster from WoR. She is fun.

[IllNsickly]

On the topic of Laral...

Her limited screen time shows her as a child, skips the intervening time and then shows her as an adult. 

Sure, Roshone is a hateful cremling and our 3rd person removed perspective strongly dislikes her association with him... However, Duty and Obligation seem to be central to her. Why else would she marry Roshone? Also, it feels awfully like she is In Charge of that situation. She runs that household.

Back to the OP. Our experience with Laral (LIMITED) makes it difficult for me to decide how well that relationship would work. I would definitely like to see more screen time from Laral, but I feel like it would work out so well for Shallan at this point.

[Llarimar]

This topic thread brings up a very good point - I can't believe I've never noticed this before.  There is a very strong portrayal of platonic male relationships and camaraderie in Brandon's books, such as Kelsier's Crew, the men in Elantris helping Sarene, and Kaladin and the bridgemen for example, but there are very few female relationships.  

On 3/23/2018 at 0:15 PM, Naurock said:

So the conclusion we must draw is there are two possible options: Brandon does not know how to do girl talk or he just likes writing strong, independent women who are on a journey of self discovery.

I do think that Brandon struggles with writing from a female perspective, but I think that the main reason for the lack of female bonding in his books is the latter example you bring up - he wants to write strong, independent woman who are on a journey of self discovery.  I can see how an author would think that giving a female protagonist a group of friends would potentially hinder their character development, because there would be a support network in the case of a tragedy or an emotional crisis that would prevent the character from growing as much.  It reminds me of how the main character's parents constantly die in movies and books, because the character development necessary for the story would be much harder to achieve if their parents were alive.  For some reason, it seems like this is less of a problem with platonic male relationships - maybe because male friendships are often less emotional and personal than female friendships, giving a male protagonist a group of friends doesn't hinder their character development as much.

That being said, I think it is more than possible to give a female character a group of female friends without weakening their character development, although many authors (Sanderson included, as we have seen) probably find it easier to bring about a female character's journey of self discovery by isolating them.  

On 3/23/2018 at 4:10 PM, Song said:

It was one of the things that hurt when Jasnah seemed to die. It looked like they were about to properly bond, Shallan saw her pain and wanted to help, Jasnah finally had someone who believed her. It had the makings of a terrific friendship, it got cut off, and the time away has pulled them apart.

There was definitely a friendship between Shallan and Jasnah, but I always saw it as more of a maternal or a big-sister relationship.  Shallan had never been nurtured or encouraged by someone before, and so I think that is what was lost when Jasnah "died" - not a friendship between peers (which is what Shallan really needs), but rather someone who she saw as a role model, or an instructor, or like I said a mother or a big sister. 

[Delightful]

Someone should ask Brandon this at a signing, even if only to put the idea in his head. 

[Angsos]

First someone needs to crack Shallan's walls before she can naturally interact with people and Lift could possibly do that. She's irreverant but can be semi-serious if she tries. Right now Shallan is nuts(midway thru part III) so until she gets semi-sorted, she can't really have anyone. What she really needs is for Veil to throttle her. What see really needs is a therapy session with Stephen Leeds.

[Zelly]

To be honest, it seems like almost no one outside of Bridge 4 has friends.  I don't think "friendship" is a theme that Brandon's even trying to explore.