[OB] Will Shallan ever find a good (girl) friend?

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Zellyia said:

I don't think "friendship" is a theme that Brandon's even trying to explore.

In his defense, MB Era 1 and SA characters have "saving the world" to distract them. I know there are people who can just ignore the calamity and keep living life, but those aren't the characters Brandon writes about.

[Jofwu]

13 hours ago, Zellyia said:

To be honest, it seems like almost no one outside of Bridge 4 has friends.  I don't think "friendship" is a theme that Brandon's even trying to explore.

 

I disagree.

In Stormlight it's definitely not a HUGE theme, but I'd argue that both Dalinar-Navani and Kaladin-Adolin are friendships we've seen develop. It's a big theme among Bridge 4, as you pointed out, and they're a significant part of the story. Kaladin-Moash is a particularly big part of the story.

More generally, concerning male-male friendships in Brandon's books... Raoden had Galladon, Lightsong had Llarimar, and Wax has Wayne. That's three very solid examples of male protagonists with a significant friendship on the side. Throw in Kaladin-Moash/Bridge 4 and that means nearly all of Brandon's novels with a male lead give that character a friendship. The only oddity is Mistborn, perhaps.

[Ashspren]

14 hours ago, Zellyia said:

To be honest, it seems like almost no one outside of Bridge 4 has friends.  I don't think "friendship" is a theme that Brandon's even trying to explore.

 

To be honest... except for Bridge 4, all other friendships have ended miserably. Dalinar, Gavilar, and Sadeas... that failed...

[Zelly]

6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I disagree.

In Stormlight it's definitely not a HUGE theme, but I'd argue that both Dalinar-Navani and Kaladin-Adolin are friendships we've seen develop. It's a big theme among Bridge 4, as you pointed out, and they're a significant part of the story. Kaladin-Moash is a particularly big part of the story.

More generally, concerning male-male friendships in Brandon's books... Raoden had Galladon, Lightsong had Llarimar, and Wax has Wayne. That's three very solid examples of male protagonists with a significant friendship on the side. Throw in Kaladin-Moash/Bridge 4 and that means nearly all of Brandon's novels with a male lead give that character a friendship. The only oddity is Mistborn, perhaps.

Sorry, I was really only directing my theme comment towards the SA. Also not saying the lack of friendship is bad writing. I just think it's an area that, outside of bridge 4, Brandon is not trying to explore in The Stormlight Archive. 

I agree Adolin and Kaladin are developing as friends. Navani and Dalinar, however, I would argue have always been more than friends. I I think there is definitely exploration into relationships and bonds, but..... The Friendship theme is not as major as it is in a lot of young adult fantasy, for example.

[Ashspren]

41 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

Sorry, I was really only directing my theme comment towards the SA. Also not saying the lack of friendship is bad writing. I just think it's an area that, outside of bridge 4, Brandon is not trying to explore in The Stormlight Archive. 

I agree Adolin and Kaladin are developing as friends. Navani and Dalinar, however, I would argue have always been more than friends. I I think there is definitely exploration into relationships and bonds, but..... The Friendship theme is not as major as it is in a lot of young adult fantasy, for example.

I still think it would be good to see Shallan having a female friend. Look at all of the female protagonists in the Cosmere: Vin, Sarene, Jasnah, Shallan, Marasi, etc. None of them have a female friend that they can rely on. I feel like Sanderson is probably going to write one in for Shallan, which I definitely hope to see in the future.

[Isilel]

On 27.3.2018 at 2:29 AM, The One Who Connects said:

In his defense, MB Era 1 and SA characters have "saving the world" to distract them.

I disagree. Regarding MB Era 1, most of the crew members were friends before the book started. They were, of course, all men, but then, I have always found MB Era 1 treatment of women to be fairly problematic - basically, apart from Vin, they almost exclusively appeared in the narrative only when a prominent male character needed a love interest or an occasional vengeful ex. Even among the bit characters, women appear rarely and mostly as passive bits of scenery - anything active is done by men.

As to SA, it is better, but we still have the significant majority of PoVs being men and the majority of bit characters with potential of evolving into more significant roles ditto. It is also not true that male characters don't have friendships, they do:

Lirin and Wistiow

Kaladin and his spear squad in Amaram's army, Bridge 4, Moash (even though that goes south), Adolin

Dalinar with Sadeas (yes, yes, but they used to be friends, both ruminated on the loss of their friendship and Dalinar mourned Torol's death), Havar, Kadash, even Amaram - though we only have a "tell, not show" for that. Still, Amaram's PoV in WoR and his deep regret over losing Dalinar's friendship demonstrates that it was there and important for both men. One could say that Dalinar was unwise in his choice of friends, but he did have them. He may even win Kadash back.

Taravangian has a whole group of friends, who are also followers of his cause, but the core group looks like people who used to be his friends beforehand.

Now, there is one female character in SA who has friends - Jasnah. The short spanreed conversation between her and the other 2 Veristitalians did fully convince me in a very concise manner that the 3 of them are good friends and I really, really hope that those 2 make it to Urithiru in Book 4, since somebody has to take over large part of research now that Jasnah has been saddled with the responsibility of ruling "Alethkar in exile". Also, it would be very helpful to have some Elsecaller squires and they seem to be ideally suited. One of the people involved - Scion Eth(?) is even a woman, so Jasnah does have a female friend.

Still, I feel that part of the problem is that women are absent from positions of closeness and certain trust to other important female characters. Like, none of them have maid-servants, for instance, which makes very little sense, because looking impeccable while traveling and researching, etc. in pre-industrial conditions should take a lot of work. Shallan kinda has a reason to travel alone and to buy local services to keep her wardrobe in respectable condition. But Jasnah, what, with being a target of assassination attempts and deeply engrossed in her research? It makes zero sense that she didn't have a trusted servant who'd keep her things up to her standards.

Nor does it feel logical that while we get lots of short, but memorable characterization for various supporting male characters, female scholars and scribes seem fairly interchangeable. It seemed to change a little bit towards the end of WoR, but OB kinda ignored all of that again.

Even with the Windrunners, introduction of women into the Bridges happened rather abruptly, rather than organically. Wouldn't it have made much more sense if scribes and runners joined the newly formed bridgmen batallion from the start and we have seen bits of them from early WoR on? How did it function without proper clerks, anyway? Sigzil only sorta did it for Bridge 4 itself. Etc.

[Scion of the Mists]

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I have always found MB Era 1 treatment of women to be fairly problematic - basically, apart from Vin, they almost exclusively appeared in the narrative only when a prominent male character needed a love interest or an occasional vengeful ex. Even among the bit characters, women appear rarely and mostly as passive bits of scenery - anything active is done by men.

Brandon has specifically called this out as one of his regrets :

(spoilered for length)

Spoiler

 

Quote

libbykino

I'm only maybe 1/4 of the way through WOA (the second book of the first series) and something has kind of been nagging at me for a while. I figured out what it is, finally, and it's that there are no women in this story. I mean, obviously there's Vin as the main character, but she has a lot of overtly masculine qualities and quite frankly a suppressed fondness for dresses and perfume just isn't enough for me. All of the feminine characters are bad, jealous, stupid, flippant and/or unimportant. The only other positive female characters I've met so far are either dead (Mare) or "other"/foreign (Tindwyl).

And the series, so far, clearly fails the Bechdel test. The only conversations Vin has had with other women have been about men (particularly Elend).

Does it get any better than this? I mean, it's honestly really starting to bother me. This series is almost like a reverse-harem trope with all the males surrounding the main character.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the world and the story otherwise (except for Elend's chapters that drone on and on about his ideal political structure which don't have any place in a society like this one IMO), but the complete lack of any female interaction is starting to bother me, TBH.

Brandon Sanderson

I've always considered this a legitimate criticism of Mistborn. In my plotting and planning, I was so focused on doing a good job with a dynamic female lead that I fell into a trap that is common for newer writers--to be less intentional about other characters, and default to male.

I think I once counted, and was able to find interactions in each book between Vin and women that were not related to men, and so the series does strictly pass the test--but the test has always been intended as a bare minimum. You can pass the test and still lack any real and meaningful representations of people different from yourself, and you can actually fail the test while not having this be a problem at all.

In the case of Mistborn, I consider it a legitimate weakness of the stories. I'm sorry it is distracting to you.

libbykino

It is only a minor distraction, Brandon. And I think perhaps I am spoiled, because I read Stormlight 1 and 2 first and am only now just starting Mistborn, and your female characters in Stormlight are outstanding. The relationship between Shallan and Jasnah is amazing so I know that you are perfectly capable of writing complex and varied female characters. I think that's why I found it so striking that it seems to be missing in Mistborn.

Regardless... I am still enthralled with the books. I am enjoying the plot and I do love the characters. I can't wait to find out what the Deepness is or if Vin truly is the Hero of Ages (knowing the title of the third book probably spoils that one for me though, haha).

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me, Brandon! You are so good to your fans I really appreciate it! Can't wait to finish reading this series!

Brandon Sanderson

My pleasure.

It wasn't long after finishing the series that I started to think about this aspect. I really wish I'd made Ham a woman, for example. I think the character would have gone interesting places--and would have done good things for the lore of the world if women Thugs were heavily recruited to be soldiers.

Reflecting on Mistborn has been very useful to me as a writer, however, as it's part of what helped me personally understand that you can do something like have a strong, and interesting, female lead but still have a series that overall displays a weakness in regards to female characters. This has greater implications for writing, not just in regards to female characters, and is something I don't think I could have learned without this series. (Where I worked so very hard on Vin that I thought I had this aspect down.)

source

 

 

 

 

Regarding women with frinds in Stormlight, I would also include Shallan with Kabsal, Tyn (man, Shallan has the worst taste in friends), and her band of merry mercenaries.  Also, Navani with Dalinar and the fabrial engineers.  

Edited March 28, 2018 by Scion of the Mists

[Jofwu]

On 3/23/2018 at 4:30 PM, Dreamstorm said:

Ishnah is a great choice. In retrospect, it would have been nice to see things develop a bit more in that direction in OB. (Does Shallan wonder once about what happened to Ishnah and Vathah after Kholinar? Oh Shallan...)

I'm really digging this idea. Would love to see Ishnah fleshed out and pulled into this role.

One of Shallan's (many) flaws is how she undervalues the people beneath her, I think. Ishnah is in a place to (1) give Shallan a female shoulder to cry on, (2) take part in Ghostblood shenanigans, (3) teach Shallan about darkeyes, and (4) help Shallan realize how she has neglected her guards (and servants, etc.).

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I disagree. Regarding MB Era 1, most of the crew members were friends before the book started.

I'll grant you that TFE really should've had more fleshing out of friendships. Now that I think about it, the lack of it might be due to the size of the cast. The (good guy) main cast of Star Wars: A New Hope is what... 5 people? The core crew in Mistborn: The Final Empire consisted of about double that, all of whom had various relations to explore(Ham & Breeze, Marsh & Kelsier & Dockson, Clubs & Spook, etc..) in addition to the "Vin meets everybody" train throughout. Exploring all of that could clutter up(or slow down) the story, which (IIRC) was one of the complaints about WoA, during which he does explore more of those relations.

HoA falls under the "end of the world" excuse, though.

[Vissy]

Despite there not being much exploration of the crew's friendships, TFE was still much more group-focused (a lot of time was spent recruiting members that were each vital to the success of the mission) novel than its successors, which were more like Vin's personal badass shows.