Why is Kaladin different from the other Radiants? (Spoilers)

[Aminar]

I don't think Shallan can break her Oath/Truths. It seems more likely that her order would have different conditions to handle Oathbreaking. Possibly lying when declaring a Truth. Or denying a Truth they've give. So if anybody ever asks Shallan if she killed her Father and she says No, then she's in trouble. At the same time Her truth about Hating Pattern seems... Easily changeable...

[Djerf]

 

Sorry English is obviously not my first language

I mean since Shallan will change she will actually be a different person. she won't have do to anything to keep herself like that.

The new Shallan won't have any problems so the bond restriction of Pattern is useless. I will make a little diagram to make my thoughts clearer:

Shallan face her problems----> Shallan became a different person,no more lies and secrets---> pitfalls of the restriction are gone--> no more need to be in check to break the bond.

 

 

When Syl died it was because Kaladin lied to himself saying that it was ok to kill the king despite knowing that it wasn't.

Now Kaladin has an oath, a guideline, and as long as he keeps to his oath everything will be alright. Kaladin can lie to himself about everything between his prowess in bed, by the way of why he likes or dislikes people, to absolute morality and why he fails or succeeds in his undertakings.

 

Shallan on the other hand can never lie to herself, which is something that almost everyone does.

The lies we tell ourselfs are often small but help us get thru the day " I couldn't have done anything anyway" "I Don't have the time". Shallan can't tell herself that she's the hero in her story unless she really are the hero.

 

I'd say that Shallan's path will be the harder one but also the most rewarding.

[Gloom]

As far as the relative power of the radiant, a few thoughts pop up.

One, perhaps the relative power of the radiant is dependent upon how close the potential radiant is to breaking prior to the power up. For instance, Kaladin has been under extreme mental stress each time he said an ideal. He almost comitted suicide prior to speaking his first ideal. Kaladin acted against what he felt was in his best interest at the time he spoke both his ideals.

Two, it could have something to do with the current condition of the Herald related to the order that each radiant belongs to. We don't really know a lot about the current condition of most of the Heralds, but we know that Shalash appears to be functional, if a bit off. Nalan is also functional,if a bit twisted. Taln has lost it, but appears to be able to snap out of his fugue when necessary to protect himself. Jezrien is rumored to be in a very poor mental state. It's possible that the Heralds act as a sort of check on the power of their radiants. If so, Kaladins power may be unchecked within his sphere.

Three, Some orders were larger than others, and it seems that they had different internal structures. It could be that not all WIndrunners are equal and that the higher the ranking of the Windrunner the greater that Windrunners power. Seeing as Kaladin is the only Windrunner at this time, he may automatically default as the leader of his order.

As far as pattern goes, I'm not sure that anything was keeping him from reaching Shallan. I think Shallan was the one who refused to have anything to do with Pattern. Once Shallan remembered that she killed her mother, she told Pattern she hated him. I'm not sure we ever really saw Shallan do a power up, but she is at the third ideal as is Jasnah. With the third ideal comes the Shardblade. Shallan had that blade all through TWoKs, Jasnah most likely attained hers while in Shadesmar. Dalinar hasn't reached any of his ideals, he only spoke the first. Renarin is also unlikely to have attained any of his ideals yet.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Gloom

[darkanimereal1]

Ok I can accept it, but what is your take to Pattern conditions. with Kalladin there is an end to the ideals, you state them all, follow them and that's it. how do you measure Shallan progress? What if she faced all her skeletons in the closet, what can break her bond than?

 

 

If Shallan were to turn away from a painful truth.  Denied it to herself, I imagine that would hurt the bond.  

 

Let's say that she starts investigating Sadeas' murder and find evidence that Adolin may be the culprit.  But she avoids pursuing it.  She goes into denial and starts making up excuses to herself why it couldn't be true.  Even goes so far as to start believing the lie that she's telling herself.  That's the kind of thing that I think Pattern would have trouble with.  If confronting harsh truths is the way they strengthen their bond, then avoiding or ignoring them would surely hurt it.

 

In regards to the first question, I think PudgyNinja has a good point. The other thing is that we may not know enough about Shallan's order yet. We're obviously still learning new things about them all. Despite that fact that Shallan has been able to use Pattern as a shardblade at least since she killed her mother, she only just allowed herself to face that truth. Because of that, we haven't gotten to learn much about how her order works. Kaladin, on the other hand, has been having active discussions with Syl throughout part of TWoK and all of WoR about how the Windrunners work. Because of that, we've gotten to see a lot more about how their Oaths effect them. I'm sure we'll learn more in book three.

[PudgyNinja]

Sorry English is obviously not my first language

I mean since Shallan will change she will actually be a different person. she won't have do to anything to keep herself like that.

The new Shallan won't have any problems so the bond restriction of Pattern is useless. I will make a little diagram to make my thoughts clearer:

Shallan face her problems----> Shallan became a different person,no more lies and secrets---> pitfalls of the restriction are gone--> no more need to be in check to break the bond.

 

I see the disconnect.  You think that Shallan is progresing towards becoming a Radiant by dealing with past trauma.  I don't think that's the case.  She's become a Radiant by facing the truth.  The truth about herself.  She can still fall off the path if she stops being true to herself.  If she starts lying to herself again.  In life, we're constantly faced with new harsh truths to deal with.  

 

Think of it this way - Kaladin is bound to stay true to others.  Shallan is bound to stay true to herself.  Both can be difficult restrictions.

[Fistsofrage]

I, too, think there is something different about Kaladin. There is a reason why he started out as the son of a surgeon. I think it'll play a huge role in deciding what he eventually becomes or what his final form will be.

[blackmagic3]

There is a poignant quote from TWOK by Nohadon saying that,"Not all spren are as discerning as Honor spren." Furthermore Jasnah says that honor spren are the ligheyes of the congitive realm on roshar. This all implies that Windrunners adhered to stricter standards and where given greater combat power as they epitomized ideals of the shard behind their power. I suspect that lightweavers and and windrunners where the two most powerful orders.

[Carlos Stormblessed]

I'm not sure what you mean.  Each of the different branches have their own ideals.  The only exception we're aware of right now is Lightweavers, who apparently trade in Truths instead of oaths.

I think he is talking about how Sanderson likes their to be checks and balances to his magic in his worlds. As a misborn you can do anything.... as long as you have the metals for it. As a Windrunner you can do anything...... as long as you have the Stormlight for it. They are a resourced based magic system. I love it.

 

Why are the Windrunners need to follow so many ideals compare to others? maybe they get more power the more ideals they got.

or maybe the more the power is "cheatery" the more it needs balance with so many ideals. we know BS loves to keep the powers in check aka Sanderson first law of magic.

I think its the whole Spiderman quote "with great power comes great responsibility" I theorize that wind runners are more powerful as they continue to obtain their ideals compared to the other Radiants. However, I think it is morally a lot harder to stay true to that power and use it "honorably." That is at least how I hope it is.

[Exitao]

Unlike Dalinar and Lift, who both spoke their two Ideals, Kaladin said three Ideals.  It could be the "with great power..." deal, or it could also be that greater power must also come with stricter limitations.

 

Then again, I don't know if you can quantify "power" properly.  

What's interesting is that the glyphs were diferent on the two ocassions they manifested.  IIRC, one was wings, and the other was a sword.

 

If a Windrunner is akin to a guardian angel, it makes sense that his power should be showy and awe-striking.

 

 

I believe there is also something special aout Honour spren.   IIRC, in one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon had made some comment about Honourspren being rare.

 

 

As previously mentioned in this thread, Kaladin's background molded him to be a Windrunner.  His desire in joining the army (aside from protecting Tien), was to fight to save life.  

 

 

 

[Awesomeness Summoned]

What's interesting is that the glyphs were diferent on the two ocassions they manifested. IIRC, one was wings, and the other was a sword.

They could have just been two different versions of the same symbol. The one described as wings could be the regular windrunner glyph:

The second could have been the version where the glyph is the pommel of the sword:

Edited March 13, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[RShara]

I think it is a lot harder for Shallan to break her oaths than Kaladin, but I don't think it's anything special about Kaladin--rather it's a thing of Lightweavers and Windrunners.

 

Lightweavers deal in deception.  Pattern actually likes it when Shallan lies, although he likes it even more when she makes a lie that becomes true, or a mix of lies and truth.  To advance as a Lightweaver, though, she has to speak a Truth to herself.  It doesn't have to be a big or traumatic truth, just a strong one.  Her first Truth was "I'm terrified" I believe.  Purely true 110% at that moment.  I don't think anything would happen if she didn't speak a truth, other than she wouldn't advance/get what she wanted(go to Shadesmar).

As an addendum to that, I think that the more powerfully she hid that truth, the stronger the bond to Pattern and her ideals when she finally speaks it.

Denying or hiding from a truth to herself now might hurt her bond with Pattern but I'm not sure on that one way or the other.

[Nebty]

Furthermore Jasnah says that honor spren are the ligheyes of the congitive realm on roshar.

 

Actually, she's talking about Cryptics, not Honorspren.

 

"Regardless, the Cryptics rule one of the greater cities in Shadesmar. Think of them as the lighteyes of the Cognitive Realm.”

 

Can't give you the page number because it's off the kindle version, but it's in chapter 3.

 

Also, I don't think that Shallan declaring that she hates Pattern was one of her truths (probably not totally true, as it seems she blames herself more than Pattern for the incident), rather it was her finally admitting to killing her mother and confronting the truth of what happened that night.

[xbauks]

I thought Shallan was in that order as well, but do we have confirmation? Taln calls Shallan's one of Ishi's knights. 

 

Taln calls Shallan one of Ishi's Knights because Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Ishar foresaw the power that Surgebinders possessed through the Nahel Bond and realized how dangerous such unchecked power could be. So Ishar forced the spren/Surgebinders to be bound by the Ideals. 

 

Source: Chapter 42 Epigraph

 

As far as the relative power of the radiant, a few thoughts pop up.

One, perhaps the relative power of the radiant is dependent upon how close the potential radiant is to breaking prior to the power up. For instance, Kaladin has been under extreme mental stress each time he said an ideal. He almost comitted suicide prior to speaking his first ideal. Kaladin acted against what he felt was in his best interest at the time he spoke both his ideals.

Two, it could have something to do with the current condition of the Herald related to the order that each radiant belongs to. We don't really know a lot about the current condition of most of the Heralds, but we know that Shalash appears to be functional, if a bit off. Nalan is also functional,if a bit twisted. Taln has lost it, but appears to be able to snap out of his fugue when necessary to protect himself. Jezrien is rumored to be in a very poor mental state. It's possible that the Heralds act as a sort of check on the power of their radiants. If so, Kaladins power may be unchecked within his sphere.

Three, Some orders were larger than others, and it seems that they had different internal structures. It could be that not all WIndrunners are equal and that the higher the ranking of the Windrunner the greater that Windrunners power. Seeing as Kaladin is the only Windrunner at this time, he may automatically default as the leader of his order.

As far as pattern goes, I'm not sure that anything was keeping him from reaching Shallan. I think Shallan was the one who refused to have anything to do with Pattern. Once Shallan remembered that she killed her mother, she told Pattern she hated him. I'm not sure we ever really saw Shallan do a power up, but she is at the third ideal as is Jasnah. With the third ideal comes the Shardblade. Shallan had that blade all through TWoKs, Jasnah most likely attained hers while in Shadesmar. Dalinar hasn't reached any of his ideals, he only spoke the first. Renarin is also unlikely to have attained any of his ideals yet.

 

Not every order has 4 Ideals (excluding the first. that seems to be something the KR strive for during a lifetime) that they need to speak like the Windrunners. Lightweavers only speak 1 Ideal. They get all the powers and Shards after speaking that 1 Ideal. That's how Shallan got her Shardblade so early. I suspect this is also the reason for the "power difference" between Shallan and Kaladin. The Windrunners might be one of the stronger orders because they are so tightly bound by their Oaths.

 

There is a poignant quote from TWOK by Nohadon saying that,"Not all spren are as discerning as Honor spren." Furthermore Jasnah says that honor spren are the ligheyes of the congitive realm on roshar. This all implies that Windrunners adhered to stricter standards and where given greater combat power as they epitomized ideals of the shard behind their power. I suspect that lightweavers and and windrunners where the two most powerful orders.

 

Jasnah mentions that the Cryptics are the Lighteyes of Shadesmar not the Honourspren. She does however mention that there is conflict between the two.

[Quazar87]

Syl was not dead, so far as I can tell.

 

When Kaladin is speaking the Third Ideal, she and the Stormfather are fighting. She tells the Stormfather that he "CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE [Kaladin] SPEAKS THE WORDS!" She seemed likely to be in Shadesmar, rather than dead.

 

Because Pattern previously became her Blade, he had to be in the Physical. And yet, when Shallan spoke a 'truth' in TWoK, it seemed like he was in the Cognitive.

 

I'm theorizing, then, that Shallan broke her oaths by lying to herself about her mother's death. This kicked Pattern back into the Cognitive, like Syl. Spren might only die if the Knight summons them in Shardblade form (locking them into the Physical) and then betrays their oaths. This would explain why the Radiants threw off their Shards like trash when breaking their oaths, rather than causing the Recreance when not in Shards.

I think it's pretty clear that she was back because he was back to following his oaths. He decided to protect Elhokar when he couldn't protect himself. He decided to put means over ends, aka journey before destination. Syl was only as dead as Kaladin's oaths. His oaths returned before he spoke the third Ideal.

[Numb]

He merely had to speak the third ideal because the Stormfather is a bit crazy and wouldn't let Syl go to him even after regaining his oaths. Seems like there's some "rule/law" that he can't deny a person if he speaks the oaths.

[Gloom]

Not every order has 4 Ideals (excluding the first. that seems to be something the KR strive for during a lifetime) that they need to speak like the Windrunners. Lightweavers only speak 1 Ideal. They get all the powers and Shards after speaking that 1 Ideal. That's how Shallan got her Shardblade so early. I suspect this is also the reason for the "power difference" between Shallan and Kaladin. The Windrunners might be one of the stronger orders because they are so tightly bound by their Oaths.

There are 40 parables in TWoKs. Four parables to correspond to four oaths per Order. The First Ideal is the same for each Order. I don't recall anything contradicting this in WoR. I find it far more likely that Shallan progressed to the Third Ideal before we saw her appear rather than that she only has a single Ideal.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

There are 40 parables in TWoKs. Four parables to correspond to four oaths per Order. The First Ideal is the same for each Order. I don't recall anything contradicting this in WoR. I find it far more likely that Shallan progressed to the Third Ideal before we saw her appear rather than that she only has a single Ideal.

Pattern specifically tells Shallan that she only says the first ideal. That Lightweavers progress by speaking deep truths.

“Lightweavers make no oaths beyond the first,” Pattern said. “You must speak truths.”

Edited March 13, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[Aminar]

Well we would need 41 parables to fit the first universal oath(Life before death etc...) So perhaps some other orders are short a few oaths instead having other criteria to round things out.

[+rhaiynebow]

I'm not sure why Kal is different, but I do think he is. I posted this under a different Kal thread, but I think it's worth noting here as well:

 

 

FROM OTHER THREAD:

 

I'm not sure if Kal is/will be anything more than a KR, but I should like to think so!

 

One thing that I did find interesting and am waiting to see how it plays out is if the Parshendi will have any bearing on Kal progressing as a KR, or if they will have some other tie to him in the future. I say this based on a knife that was found in the chasms by bridge 4 in TWoK:

 

There was a figure at the center of the hilt, nicely carved. It was a man in fine armor, Shardplate, certainly. A symbol was etched behind him, surrounding him, spreading out from his back like wings.

 

Kaladin showed it to Rock, who had walked up to see what he found so fascinating. "The Parshendi out here are supposed to be barbarians," Kaladin said. "WIthout culture. Where did they get knives like these? I'd swear this is a picture of one of the Heralds. Jezerezeh or Nalan."

 

 

And when Kaladin says the 3rd oath in WoR:

 

 

 

Behind Kaladin, frost crystalized on the ground, growing backward away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings.

 

Hmmmmmm....thoughts?

Edited March 13, 2014 by rhaiynebow

[Aminar]

I'm not sure why Kal is different, but I do think he is. I posted this under a different Kal thread, but I think it's worth noting here as well:

FROM OTHER THREAD:

I'm not sure if Kal is/will be anything more than a KR, but I should like to think so!

One thing that I did find interesting and am waiting to see how it plays out is if the Parshendi will have any bearing on Kal progressing as a KR, or if they will have some other tie to him in the future. I say this based on a knife that was found in the chasms by bridge 4 in TWoK:

And when Kaladin says the 3rd oath in WoR:

Hmmmmmm....thoughts?

That's probably just the Windrunner Glyph. Check it out on the surgebinding chart.

[+rhaiynebow]

Yes, most definitely the Windrunner glyph. I wasn't questioning what it was, just that we don't know yet if it's normal for that phenomenon to occur when a Windrunner speaks the 3rd oath or not. Or as someone else said, maybe it was just Syl showing off

 

The other part of it is, why would a dead Parshendi have a knife that shows Jezzrien on the hilt?

[hoser]

Yes, most definitely the Windrunner glyph. I wasn't questioning what it was, just that we don't know yet if it's normal for that phenomenon to occur when a Windrunner speaks the 3rd oath or not. Or as someone else said, maybe it was just Syl showing off

 

The other part of it is, why would a dead Parshendi have a knife that shows Jezzrien on the hilt?

I assume the Parshendi got the knives in the ruins of Natanatan or from previous battles during other desolations, but either way, you would think they might have rusted away over centuries or millenia.

 

A similar question is: Where did they get the Shards they had?  Captured from Radiants in battle? But for the blades to be frozen, the Knights would have to have betrayed their oaths. 

 

Eshonai's POV has her taking guidance while in stormform, presumably from some of the unmade.  I think the Parshmen, having no spren, will be taken over by the storm odiumspren.  Parshmen with spren, like Rlain and the ones who escaped in the canyons, may be able to resist and help the humans. 

 

Eshonai, from I-11

...Buried within those new rhythms, the names of which she intuited somehow, she could almost hear voices speaking to her. Advising her.  If her people had received such guidance over the centuries, they surely would not have fallen so far.

...

Her people deserved better.  With the return of the gods, they would have better.

Edited March 13, 2014 by hoser

[Aleksiel]

It seems to me that there is a marked difference between Kaladin and the reaction his Ideals invoke and the other Radiants.

When he says the second Ideal:

When he says the third Ideal:

We don't ever see the other Radiants, or Radiants in training, have markedly visual examples of their change. Is it just his specific order? Or are Kaladin and Syl different than the other Nahel bonds?

 

There was little to no stormlight when Dalinar and Shallan spoke their oaths (only a sphere in her case), so they couldn't have exploded with stormlight. I don't recall Lift's interlude that well, but wasn't she not so awesome after Darkness stole her awesomeness away? So I think only Kal so far was a position to shine.

 

 

 

This is right before he first is able to lash himself to the wall, so maybe every Radiant will eventually see a part of Shadesmar, but so far only the Radiant orders involved with soulcasting and now Kaladin have done so that we see.

 

All investitures have some access to Shadesmar as far as I recall some WoB, but I can't provide a link. Most likely his ability to change gravitation field is connected to the Cognitive realm.

 

why is it that Kaladin, a man named for Kalak, is of the order of Jezrien?

 

I blame his parents.

Also, wouldn't it have been strange for characters to be named after their Heralds before they have spoken any Ideals? It would be boringly easy to guess who'd be a surgebinder and their Order. Jasnah is closer to Jezereze in sound, yet she is of Battar's Elsecallers. I think it's strange that Shallan's name matches Shalash so well, not the other way around.

[flyleaffan]

I think Shallan had already reached at least the third oath (second unique one) before we even see anything of her since she used Pattern to kill her mother. I feel like the sprent can't become a shardblade until after the bond is extremely secure (so to speak). If you notice, Kaladin tried to use Shardblades in the past but couldn't and Syl did not try to become a blade or offer that to him. But once he stated the third oath, it was immediate. I theorize that spren can't transform into blades until after the third oath. I think it's possible the others become radiant when they speak their oaths but we haven't seen too much of it. The only other oath I can think of was Dalinar at the end of WoR.

[MitchSpren2014]

I thought Shallan was in that order as well, but do we have confirmation? Taln calls Shallan's one of Ishi's knights. 

Well, I think Taln will call evey KR Ishi's knights as I think Ishi is the patron of the Bondsmiths and the Bondsmiths were the ones who sorta govern the Radiants. They unite them, see?