[OB] Kaladin's Heritage

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

So in Shardkeepers Oathbringer Predictions episode it was discussed that his mother may not be darkeyed or be a mix. This is confirmed, in a sense.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are both of Kaladin's maternal grandparents darkeyes?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. Good question. I think you're the first one to pull that out of me.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There's one question, or two questions in [the signing line], that I know are driving your brains crazy, that are not as clear-cut in my answers as you might assume they are. One is about Kaladin's mother.

source

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324-emerald-city-comic-con-2018/#e9290

Edited March 8, 2018 by ElephantEarwax

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Its nice to have a theory semi-confirmed. Now to wonder what the second part of the WoB means.

• Both grandparents are lighteyed and Hesina got weird genetics
• One or both grandparent is a worldhopper
• Kaladin is a Herald's descendant
• I'm overthinking it and simply one grandparent is lighteyed

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I think what he meant was he hasn't made a final decision. Brandon sometimes changes his mind on things before they get into the published books.

[BillLangdon he/him]

I think that Hesina’s family isn’t originally vorin because of her apparent dismissal of gender taboos regarding kaladin’s education.

[StormingTexan he/him]

So does this setup something screwy like we will find out Kaladin 's grandmother or grandfather is a brighteye from one of the major houses? Sounds a little days of our lives'ish. 

[Rainier]

Just to throw more confusion into the mix, there are no darkeyes in Azir because they don't consider eye color to be relevant. It's really only Vorin cultures who make the distinction on eye color. 

So this could reasonably be interpreted as, "One of Hesina's parents came from a non-Vorin culture." This could be a culture on another planet, but it doesn't need to be.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

If you listen to the podcast, they thoerized this because he may have to overcome his hatred of lighteyes, because he himself is almost one.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

He seems to be making some progress on that after his time with the Wall Guard.

[IronBars he/him]

Doesn't it say in the books that a high ranked darkeye family can marry into a low ranked lighteye one, and that there children cam be dark or light eyed ?

Therefore its probably as simple as thats what happened in hesina's case no ? One light and one dark eyed parent and she just happened to be darkeyed.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by IronBars

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, ElephantEarwax said:

If you listen to the podcast, they thoerized this because he may have to overcome his hatred of lighteyes, because he himself is almost one.

I think he is pretty much past his hatred of lighteyes by now. Dalinar, Shallan and Adolin were the start. Then his own eyes turning light forced him to face some truths. His time with the Wall Guard was probably the last drop in the medicine of getting past that toxic hatred.

7 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Doesn't it say in the books that a high ranked darkeye family can marry into a low ranked lighteye one, and that there children cam be dark or light eyed ?

Therefore its probably as simple as thats what happened in hesina's case no ? One light and one dark eyed parent and she just happened to be darkeyed.

 

That is most likely the case. But when have we ever accepted the most reasonable explanation without exploring the crazier ones too? 

[Yezrien]

It's ugly, but shouldn't we acknowledge the more cynical possibility? Kaladin's maternal grandmother was an ordinary but attractive darkeyed girl, and some lighteyed lord wouldn't take no for an answer. The big dramatic twist will be that the lord has a name we recognize.

Maybe it was Torol Sadeas's father. Maybe Kaladin has a legitimate (albeit illegitimate) claim to the Sadeas princedom.

[Zea mays she/her]

Nvmnd. Please delete. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Zea mays

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

21 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

It's ugly, but shouldn't we acknowledge the more cynical possibility? Kaladin's maternal grandmother was an ordinary but attractive darkeyed girl, and some lighteyed lord wouldn't take no for an answer. The big dramatic twist will be that the lord has a name we recognize.

Possible but unlikely. 

Lirin met Hesina's parents and was very nervous when he did so. When Kaladin's family was struggling in Hearthstone because of Roshone Hesina's parents offered to take them in or send them money. Hesina been a child of a lighteyed lord that forced himself on a pretty darkeyes doesn't quite ring true when considering those two pieces of knowledge, as in those cases the lord would abandon the girl he forced and the child he had.

[Yezrien]

But @WhiteLeeopard, I'm assuming he did abandon her, and the man Lirin met was not Hessina's real father. Either he's a decent man who stuck around to raise a child that wasn't his biologically, or his wife never told him that he's not the father.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

2 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

But @WhiteLeeopard, I'm assuming he did abandon her, and the man Lirin met was not Hessina's real father. Either he's a decent man who stuck around to raise a child that wasn't his biologically, or his wife never told him that he's not the father.

That could work. I assumed someone that disapproved of Lirin (surgeon of the second nahn and very good man) for their daughter and that could afford to take in an entire family or send them money would have to be lighteyes. A darkeyes wealthy enough to have that much money, and ambitious enough to be unhappy with a second nahn marriage, would have to be so influential for darkeyes that it seems unlikely a lord could get away with raping Hesina's mother.

Remember the Roshone affair was a huge scandal because the king and Roshone went too far and came close to breaking the law, something which was talked about for years. As often happens in these kinds of societies the top can take advantage of the bottom of society, but the higher you go in society the harder it is to do so. First nahn and second nahn seem tricky for even highlords to abuse, and they need to use the law for it (although as Nale showed us loopholes in the law are great stuff for many people in Roshar). 

[Isilel]

I have been rhinking that it was odd that we didn't see any illegitimate children of lighteyes/nobility in SA, apart from Redin. I mean, in the first Mistborn series there are a lot of them, despite draconic laws against interbreeding with commoners.

So, Hesina may be an illegitimate daughter of some noble and his mistress - but I doubt it. Her family was somehow supporting them by sending supplies during their feud with Roshone, but the light-eyed grandparent couldn't have been important, as  he didn't even try to make Roshone back off, nor did he attempt  to rescue Kaladin and Tien from Amaram's army. And also, he couldn't have been rich, as he didn't tell Lirin and Hesina to forget about the 100 diamond spheres and offer to pay for Kaladin's education himself. This would go 10x for a worldhopper. IMHO, he is a light-eyed craftsman or merchant - 8th dahn or so.

But anyway, I was  disappointed when Graves died, because I really wanted to learn how mixed couples functioned in Alethi society, what could be expected concerning eye-color inheritance and social status of their children, etc. And now, it looks likely that we'll see some of that from Hesina's family - which is nice.

[Subvisual Haze]

6 hours ago, ElephantEarwax said:

If you listen to the podcast, they thoerized this because he may have to overcome his hatred of lighteyes, because he himself is almost one.

That's not so much a theory as it is a running gag at this point.  From the very earliest chapter and in almost every chapter since Kaladin and Hesina have acted like the most culturally idealized lighteyed people in the entire book.  Kaladin has an active mind that asks appropriately probing questions, can read glyphs, has a basic grounding in most sciences, can process battlefield tactics at a glance, and understands group leadership dynamics.  He never fit in with the working children in his hometown, and the members of Bridge 4 immediately see him as something different and suspect he is a "secret lighteyes" in Sizgil's words. 

Kaladin tries structure his worldview as him being "just another darkeyes" being oppressed, but this isn't the case at all.  The way he thinks, talks, and processes the world around him is how a classically educated lighteyes would, not really at all how a uneducated peasant would.  This dynamic is a good source of conflict for Kaladin's identity though: he doesn't truly fit in with darkeyes, but he refuses to accept the reality of lighteyed status, thus he's a classic outsider from the social order.  In this sense he's a lot like Kelsier, who also liked to imagine himself a champion of skaa while ignoring that his own cultural identity and mannerisms were much more noble than they were skaa.

As for Hesina herself...I'm still holding out hope in my theory that she's a descendent of one of the Heralds (Vedel?).  I think several of the Heralds have had darkeyes so far in the story.  I also think there's a decent chance she might be related to Navani or was herself a former Ardent.  This is hard to guess though, because thus far we know absolutely nothing about Navani's family and life pre-Kholins.  Hesina does seem pious (she burns glyphs, encourages Kaladin to speak to the Ardents, seems delighted when she discovers Kaladin is a Radiant), but also practical in her adherence to social norms regarding glove on safehand.  She also mentions receiving a letter from her estranged family at one point discussing new fabrials, which seems like a subtle clue regarding her family origins.  Heck, Kal's family owned the only fabrial clock in their city, and Hesina showed an interest in the nature of spren, which would be appropriate if she came from a family of fabrial researchers.

[Song she/her]

Crazy  idea, is there any chance that Hessina is a straight up light-eyes?

We know there are eye drops you can use to make your eyes dark. You can imagine Hessina coming from a low dahn family, meeting Lirin and deciding she was happy to live as a dark eyes for him. It would add impidious to her wish to marry Kaladin to a lighteye because their kids would be more likely to be light-eyes than dark.

[Mewmeister he/him]

16 minutes ago, Song said:

Crazy  idea, is there any chance that Hessina is a straight up light-eyes?

We know there are eye drops you can use to make your eyes dark. You can imagine Hessina coming from a low dahn family, meeting Lirin and deciding she was happy to live as a dark eyes for him. It would add impidious to her wish to marry Kaladin to a lighteye because their kids would be more likely to be light-eyes than dark.

I would doubt that on a logistics basis; would be a very difficult lie to keep.

[RShara she/her]

Yeah.  Don't those eyedrops only last a few hours?  I think people would notice.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Yeah, also it would probably be hard to get them all the way out in a small town.

[Song she/her]

Yep, I suppose it is a stretch.

I do love the idea of Hessina having a fasinating backstory, she is one of my favourite characters and there are clear hints she is more than she appears to be.

Given the Heralds have been around for Millennia, if they can have children I would assume there would be thousands of people decended from them. It would be so common as to be pretty insignificant.

[Mewmeister he/him]

5 minutes ago, Song said:

Yep, I suppose it is a stretch.

I do love the idea of Hessina having a fasinating backstory, she is one of my favourite characters and there are clear hints she is more than she appears to be.

Given the Heralds have been around for Millennia, if they can have children I would assume there would be thousands of people decended from them. It would be so common as to be pretty insignificant.

They are slightly insane, so I'd imagine it to be a touch rarer than that.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

More then just slightly at least in some cases.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, Song said:

Given the Heralds have been around for Millennia, if they can have children I would assume there would be thousands of people decended from them. It would be so common as to be pretty insignificant.

If the Heralds can have children they would probably have to jump through some hoops to achieve it, so I don't think it would be so common to be descended from them. Mainly because they are cognitive shadows, and we saw in Nalthis how CS can't easily have children.