Shallan's Relationship

[Greywatch she/her]

I disagree with the principle of the idea that being in a relationship will automatically make Kaladin happy. Even ignoring the fact that they have also fought a lot, being in a relationship does not "fix" depression. Not talking about how compatible Kaladin and Shallan are, or how well they understand each other, just this basic issue. And that goes for more than just clinical depression. Being in a relationship doesn't fix any of your problems; the other person is not a solution to whatever bad feelings. Just thought that needed to be said.

[kaellok he/him]

1.  Sorry, but no.  I'm not giving you that.  You most certainly did create a logical fallacy and you're pointedly ignoring it.

 

I asked who else Kaladin could possibly compare Shallan's ability to make him smile so easily?

 

If you want to actually have a rebuttal to my argument, then tell me.  His life, especially the later half of his 19 years, has been known little in the way of people who make him smile other than his brother.  So of course the logical comparison of happiness is going to be Tien.

 

 

2. I honestly don't give two craps who ends with who as long as it makes sense and isn't written terribly.  I'm a realist.  What happens, happens.  And I've based my entire argument around the actual source material and the source material tells me there's 'something' more to Kaladin and Shallan.  What is that? I've no idea yet, but their interactions and descriptions of each other tell me something may be under the surface, possibly romantic, that they haven't realized.  

 

 

3.  I don't presume to know.

 But I'm not arrogant or silly enough to form some weird, creepy sibling dynamic of Kaladin becoming the older brother figure to Shallan that Heleron should have been. 

 

 

4.  At any rate, I think I've debated all I can with you.  I clearly can't get you to acknowledge my points.

 

1.  I'm not the author that compared, in-text, the ability of two different characters to make Kaladin smile.  Sanderson is.  Tien did so, and Shallan did.  Both managed to make Kaladin smile in spite of his depression and/or SAD and despite circumstances.  And both managed to do so in approximately no time, or, as a popular expression goes, "at the drop of a hat."  Who else has managed to do so?  No one that we know of, in-text.  So what?  My argument is plain and simple: the near-effortless way that Shallan cheered Kaladin up reminded him strongly of Tien.  Your refusal to accept this is not my problem, as the argument is quite simple.  You can dispute the conclusions I draw based off of it, but to dismiss the premise itself without any logic or reason other than an attack on myself is silly.  Further, I said that that direct, textual comparison draws a direct line from Kaladin to his relationship with Tien; this draws the readers mind directly to the relationship Kaladin had with Tien, which is that of siblings.  This means that it makes me, following this line clearly laid out, to think that Kaladin and Shallan would be able to have a very strong, close, platonic relationship--like that of brother/sister.  If it goes the other way, I didn't say it would be creepy; I said it would be weird.  And that's because that very purposeful textual connection that Sanderson has drawn seems off if that's his intended story route.

 

2.  You based your entire original post around textual evidence, sure.  But your rebuttals and responses have been little more than ad hominem or personal attacks, or simply restating your original point again and again without much in the way of response or development. 

 

3.  You're certainly arrogant enough to pass judgment on those who disagree with you, instead of engaging in actual debate.  And I'm definitely arrogant enough to engage in such a reaction, defend myself, and continue to attempt to re-explain in a way that maybe, just maybe you'll actually read and understand this time. 

 

4.  I disagree with the conclusions you have drawn.  Amazingly enough, responding to this disagreement and counter-explanations with insults hasn't managed to change my mind.  Assuming you stick around, I'll see you in other threads.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

tbh I am just going to ignore the overwhelming het in this thread because Shallan has seen Jasnah's safehand and other parts and lingered on them light blind it. Shasnah! Literally, I only voted Shadolin because Jasnah is not an option up there, though she definitely is in the series. Shaaaaaaaaaaaaasnah. Nooooon-monosexual couples please for the love of Harmony just accept that people are going to ship them and therefore please include those options in your fandom-poling. Please.

 

(shasnah)

 

Brings this back to the thread because I suspect it may have gotten lost in the lengthy debates, and it is a good point.  (and a good ship.)

[Chrono she/her]

I disagree with the principle of the idea that being in a relationship will automatically make Kaladin happy. Even ignoring the fact that they have also fought a lot, being in a relationship does not "fix" depression. Not talking about how compatible Kaladin and Shallan are, or how well they understand each other, just this basic issue. And that goes for more than just clinical depression. Being in a relationship doesn't fix any of your problems; the other person is not a solution to whatever bad feelings. Just thought that needed to be said.

 

I agree strongly with this, as I've gone through a severe depressive episode in my life. However, I don't believe it's that cut and dried. Yes, you are responsible for your feelings. Yes, the only one that can change the way you act, think, and feel is you. But other people can help inspire and facilitate this change. Certainly people can impact us negatively. But some people can help us, give us motivation, and be there for us. My mother has been a great help with my struggling. I can honestly say that were it not for her influence, I would be much more depressed, angry, and mistrustful of everyone. She hasn't done this simply by being my mother, but by comforting and giving out helpful advice to me.

 

To apply this to Kaladin, being in a relationship is not going to instantly make him skip in joy, sing love ballads, and get over his problems. However, a good relationship can facilitate healing, connections with others, and happiness. In essence, this was what Tien did for Kaladin. He didn't make his SAD go away just by standing around. He gave him rocks. He smiled at him. He made Kaladin laugh. It is actions, not just entering into a relationship that helps with this.

 

Kaladin has depression, PTSD, and maybe SAD, which are all clinical health problems. Those will probably never go away. He's going to be struggling with them for the rest of his life. However, if he enters into a positive and healthy relationship and if he allows his partner (in my opinion, Shallan) to uplift and comfort him, the symptoms may decrease. It's an ongoing battle, but that doesn't mean that people can't step in and help him.

[Greywatch she/her]

Yep, absolutely valid point, Chrono. I just wanted to say something about the idea being passed around (explicit or implicit) that Shallan would be a solution to Kaladin's depression or anger or unhappiness. It's entirely possible Shallan could be good for him that way; also possible his symptoms wouldn't change at all.

 

(And I just want to be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight - I voted "no one".)

[Chrono she/her]

Yep, absolutely valid point, Chrono. I just wanted to say something about the idea being passed around (explicit or implicit) that Shallan would be a solution to Kaladin's depression or anger or unhappiness. It's entirely possible Shallan could be good for him that way; also possible his symptoms wouldn't change at all.

 

(And I just want to be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight - I voted "no one".)

 

Ah, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have the exact same opinion about characters influencing one another. It seems that in most books, the only thing you need to do in order to be happy is to either get a love interest or have some babies. Which don't really do squat when it comes down to it. It's probably the most unrealistic way to solve character problems. Suffered from trauma as a kid? No problem, just have a baby and it's solved. Gah.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Chrono

[theravenchilde she/her]

thanks, kogi! if I just start chanting "shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah" similar to how I am over in the Steris thread, how fast do you think I can derail the convo.

 

You know, I'm pretty sure there was a post on... somewhere, detailing every piece of Shasnah ever. Wasn't that Feather's, actually?? Or was that one about Kadolin?

[Kogiopsis she/her]

thanks, kogi! if I just start chanting "shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah" similar to how I am over in the Steris thread, how fast do you think I can derail the convo.

 

You know, I'm pretty sure there was a post on... somewhere, detailing every piece of Shasnah ever. Wasn't that Feather's, actually?? Or was that one about Kadolin?

 

That was Badger/Stormfather's, actually!  (I keep trying to convince Gavin to write a Shasnah shipping manifest ala the Kalarin/Shallarin ones Feather and I did last fall, but ze is busy with unimportant things like grad work - pssh.  To my knowledge there's no Kadolin manifesto finished, though Grey is getting close.)

 

And I see no downsides to chanting 'shasnah' here; it's technically on-topic, right?  

[theravenchilde she/her]

That was Badger/Stormfather's, actually!  (I keep trying to convince Gavin to write a Shasnah shipping manifest ala the Kalarin/Shallarin ones Feather and I did last fall, but ze is busy with unimportant things like grad work - pssh.  To my knowledge there's no Kadolin manifesto finished, though Grey is getting close.)

 

And I see no downsides to chanting 'shasnah' here; it's technically on-topic, right?  

 

Whoops, I knew it was somewhere on tumblr (now I'm gonna link to it... Here! thank you badger for doing the good work for us) We need all of the manifestos. All of them. We can build a fort out of evidence from the manifestos that's how much we have.

 

Maybe if I chant long enough some kind soul will edit the poll and add Jasnah?

shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah 

[DeployParachute]

The biggest argument for me against Shallan/Kaladin is their polar opposite natures, roles, and spren.  

 

Hi, sorry I cut out the rest of your post to save space, but you made a lot of great points, and this first sentence really sums up your argument very succinctly, so I'll respond to it.  I think that this is really something that ultimately people are just going to disagree on.  Too many perspectives, and everyone will feel different (even perhaps the characters in the books).  Some people want a person who is as close to them as possible, other people like the excitement that someone different from them provides.  

 

Having said this, I will now try to provide evidence that Shallan is the kind of person who feels the latter.  Really missing my book right now, so I'll just try to get it as close as possible.  In the chasm scene, Shallan spends a good two paragraphs or so arguing the exact opposite of your point.  She describes truly great art as being a study in contrast.  Here we see Shallan providing evidence of her opinion on the matter, so I think it is reasonable that while your preference for romantic partners might be against opposites, hers may not be so.  I will point out that I am not arguing that Adolin and Shallan aren't different, cause they are, but neither can we rule out Kaladin just because he's too opposite of her, I think. 

 

Good to see you, too, Mr. Parachute!  (btw, have I mentioned how terrifying I find your name?  I will never deploy a parachute, as I will never be jumping out of an airplane.  I don't care if it's a perfectly good one, or one that's crashing into the ground, or needed to sneak behind enemy lines.  Jumping out of a helicopter or off a cliff is the limit that I'm prepared to handle, and even then only if I have a nice harness and stout rope I can hold onto.)

 

Continuing to only respond to your responses to my post

1.  So, yes, Kaladin mostly has trust issues as a more correct way of saying things.  However, his trust issues bleed over into dishonesty.  Deliberately allowing someone to believe a falsehood is dishonest, even if it's not a lie.  It doesn't matter whether it's a good time for it or not.  Of course, you should avoid bad ideas in times of stress, to keep from making things worse; that's not the argument I'm making.  I'm simply arguing that whether something is honest (not to be confused with the truth) is objective, and Kaladin frequently isn't.  Regarding the blame scenario, a lot of that is bleedover from WoK where he thinks he's cursed, or he blames Roshone or the nameless squadleader for Tien's death, etc.  In WoR, he's blaming Elhokar for literally every bad thing that has ever happened in his life, and for the mess it's made of the lives of so many others.  And, at the very same time (as you point out), Kaladin also assumes responsibility for things that he shouldn't.  Regarding honor, Kaladin is mostly honorable, especially by the end of WoR, but it took him an awfully long time to figure out the consistent rules he was going to abide by.  I mean, sure, extenuating circumstances and all make it reasonable, but even with Syl trying to get him to realize that cold-blooded murder is wrong Kaladin wasn't listening.   

 

2.  Shallan and Adolin's relationship absolutely could blow up, but that physical attraction has, at least for now, spurred passion--which is the number one trait to ensure long-lasting relationships.  Granted, there's a lot else that is also required, but how many survive without passion?  Or, god forbid, start without any?  They have a shallow start, yes, but there is plenty of evidence of that deepening by the end of WoR.

 

3. I think that 'ruggedly handsome' and 'sculpted statue' are basically the same in terms of "generic statement of physical features."  Saying Kaladin is like a "rock formation" is definitely different, though, so there's a possible point there.  On the other hand, I am still at work and don't have my book, so I can't tell how many times she actually refers to either one of them in such flowery terms.  Speaking of flowers, and wildlife, since those are what she shows the most interest in--wouldn't the argument be so much stronger if she said, I don't know, "Kaladin was ruggedly handsome, and intense, like a chasmfiend"?  The only times that she seems excited by rocks at all is the crem buildup on the Shattered Plains; everything else is always alive.  So, I still think this is, at best, incredibly minor evidence that we can, if Shallan and Kaladin become a thing (god forbid), look back and see it as foreshadowing.  It just doesn't seem like enough to see it as evidence on its own; only, maybe, after the fact.

 

Ha, yeah.  The first tandem jump I ever did, I spent a good 45 min going through 20 page contract signing any and all rights away before I could board a plane.  That contract had me more worried about my decision than did sitting next to the open door in plane looking at the ground as I rose 13k feet.  Ultimately though, these places are very good about safety and maintenance for jumpers, and I haven't ever heard of any death as a result of controlled tandem jumping.  A great experience that I got to mark off my bucket list, but certainly not for everyone.

 

1.  Hmm.  appreciate the response.  I'll just say that I do not believe that Kaladin's "honor" as it applies to his Knight Radianthood is tied up in him being completely honest and truthful all the time.  Also, Elhokar certainly does share in the blame for what befell Kaladin and his family, as he does for all his actions.  But there are also lots of other people who share in that, and to some extend Kaladin himself.  Also, I don't think Kaladin now has a consistent set of rules yet, I think that all Knights are going to be in a constant struggle to maintain their oaths, and that will ultimately be their burden in exchange for power.

 

3.  Really really missing my book now, as I feel like i could draw more accurate quotes to illustrate the point better, so I will have to wait a bit to respond to this one (assuming anyone is still interested)

 

You guys have been busy today! So much catching up! I dunno if I'll have time to respond properly before being forced into cooking that supper. Gee so much quote.... I do not know if I'll be able to phrase all I want to say. So here it goes, I may come back later tonight.

 

 

1. We do not diverge. I actually agree with you. I WANT Adolin and Shallan to work, but I can see it will most likely fail in the next book in order to give Adolin some character growth. There has been to much ink spend on his insecurities about relationships to not use it in the following books.

 

2. Forced by the circumstances. They did not share because they liked each other and they wanted to get to know themselves better: they shared because they were dumped into a life or death situation and when know how those generally trigger confidences. Shallan and Adolin never had the chance to have such talk. I have made the point a few times over that Shallan has not much to lose in opening up to Kal, but she has everything to lose by doing the same with Adolin. True Kal opens up, but they were trapped in a chasm during a highstorm and he was hurt! You cannot honestly compare this situation to any Shallan and Adolin may have been it.

 

3. I disliked Min and Rand as characters so hmmm yes I may have been negatively bias towards not liking their relationship.... I disliked Elayne as well, but I was fond of Aviendha. I may not have been partial here.

 

4. I agree it is too early to know if Shallan truly loves Adolin.... Adolin however is crushing on her, hard. Is it love? Hard to tell, but the way he behaves around her is telling. He blushes whenever she gets close, he is somewhat shy with physical closeness, he thinks of her in favorable terms not related to her physique: he thinks she is smart, amazing, wonderful, etc. If we look back into WoK to read about Adolin's previous courtships: he never, never describes any of them this way. He thinks they are pretty, yes, but it ends there. He is bored to death with most of them and non of these women try to get to know him: most were to busy hearing themselves talking. Also, when Danlan reaches for him, he does not shy away, he does not blush. He does with Shallan and it is telling: he crushes on her. He's got the butterflies and all when she is around. He organizes a fake chasmfield hunt just to please her and he the whole time happily bubbling around her like a love sick puppy, so yes I think it is pretty fair to assume prince Adolin is in love. He cares for her in the way he pretty much lets her decide on everything. He wants to protect her because yes 99.9% of girls would want to protected after being dump into a chasm. If this is not care, then I do not know what it is. Considering they are just dating, it's pretty much all the care we can expect. As for Shallan, yes, it is more obscure. I agree she may not want any care, she wants providing for her family.

 

5. I think Kal and Shallan together would be boring and not just because they are the main protagonists. I believe their dynamic is more akin to a sibling to sibling one than a lover to lover one. Turning them into a couple would be painful to read. The bickering is funny, but take it into a romantic relationship and it becomes perpetual fighting. As for the main protagonist part, I feel it would take drain too much of the story towards them if they become an item. I wish we would spent more time with the Kohlin family in general and less with Kal and Shallan for the next few books. However, if they become the power couple, I do not see that happening. I also do not feel their relationship is "fresh" as you state it. I think it is horribly cliche... The two people that starts up by hating each other, fighting only to realize how perfect they are for each other.... Gee that's pretty much the scenario of every girl movie ever written...... However, I understand how you feel about it. I just happen to feel differently.

 

 

1.  And I am sure we are both equally excited to read what Adolin will do when this happens.  *sigh* two more years...

 

2.  Cool, thanks for clearing that up.  And I think i have agreed elsewhere (maybe in the other thread) that Adolin and Shallan could likely have had a similar experience.  Or at least Adolin opening up, Shallan on the other hand, as you said, feels she would have had too much to lose by sharing such a secret with him at this point.

 

3.  Nah, wasn't making an argument, and i didn't find you impartial, I was just stating how interesting it is to see people read characters so differently from myself, and how that transfers to other series as well.

 

4.  Okay, so maybe we should just say this:  Adolin certainly cares for her in the sense that he is concerned for her well being and has an interest in her future and happiness.  And i would agree with you that Shallan would certainly want this from any man she may decide to date, court, or marry.  Though Kaladin cannot be ruled out as a candidate for showing this level of caring at this point.  As for "providing care" as it relates specifically to providing shelter and protection, Shallan certainly is not interested in this from her romantic partner.

 

5.  Yeah, it will be difficult to balance screen time between Shallan and Kaladin and the rest of our viewpoint characters, they already have so much.  I think your concern about hogging page time is legitimate.  As for the bickering, I think a lot of that is more likely a refusal to understand one another at the beginning of their encounters, as well as their on misconceptions and opinions they formed before getting to know one another.  Fortunately for me as a Shalladin shipper, most of that has been successfully addressed as a result of the chasm scene, and I would expect that playful engaging banter between the two of them would be the norm from hereon out.  Kaladin's depression certainly is an issue, as is Shallan's refusal to stop lying to herself, but I don't see perpetual fighting as the inevitable result of a romantic development between the two of them.  

 

 

Good discussion, until next time.

[kaellok he/him]

 

1.  Hmm.  appreciate the response.  I'll just say that I do not believe that Kaladin's "honor" as it applies to his Knight Radianthood is tied up in him being completely honest and truthful all the time.  Also, Elhokar certainly does share in the blame for what befell Kaladin and his family, as he does for all his actions.  But there are also lots of other people who share in that, and to some extend Kaladin himself.  Also, I don't think Kaladin now has a consistent set of rules yet, I think that all Knights are going to be in a constant struggle to maintain their oaths, and that will ultimately be their burden in exchange for power.

 

3.  Really really missing my book now, as I feel like i could draw more accurate quotes to illustrate the point better, so I will have to wait a bit to respond to this one (assuming anyone is still interested)

 

We both tend to talk a lot, so a lot of snipping of comment is fine

 

1.  Really, the only reason I was making this point is because MadMartigan's insistence that Kaladin could provide Shallan some way of seeing herself honestly and reconcile her inner truths.  I disagree, because it's not like he's the most introspective and honest guy himself--but while that lack hinders her, it doesn't hinder him.  

 

3.  I'm finally home from work, and school, and other work, and so I feel your pain.  I've only just now had an opportunity to check my book for specific references.

 

In the duel scene, hardcover book, p. 666, chapter title "To Kill the Wind."  

 

 

Shallan: "Don't you get yourself killed on me, Adolin Kholin.  Please..."  (*note* edited stuff out before I decided to put things in quote boxes.  Meaning is preserved.)

Just before the chasm scene, Shallan is sketching bridge mechanisms, so my theory of her being mostly interested in living things seems weaker, but the extreme exuberance she has for living things remains.  Maybe she just sketches everything.  Some witty banter between Adolin and Kaladin, just before Shallan enters at the end:

 

Kaladin: "Yeah, well, I'll try to hold myself back from going skipping across the plateau in joy."

Adolin grinned.  "I'd pay to see that."

"Me skipping?"

"You happy," Adolin said, laughing.  "You've got a face like a storm!  I half think you could frighten off a storm."

Kaladin grunted.

Adolin laughed again, slapping him on the shoulder, then turned as Shallan finally crossed the bridge, her sketching apparently done.  She looked to Adolin fondly, and as he reached out to take her hand, she rose up on her toes and gave him a kiss on the cheek.  Adolin drew back, startled.  Alethi were more reserved than that in public.

Shallan grinned at him.

 

Actually, that entire pre-chasm scene is filled with Shallan and Adolin moments, with admittedly a few potential Shallan and Kaladin foreshadowing bits.  

 

In the chasm:

 

But Kaladin's intensity, that frightened her.  he seemed like a man who constantly had his teeth clenched, a man who couldn't--or let anyone else--just sit down and take a nice rest.

"I came here," Shallan said, "because of Jasnah Kholin's work.  the scholarship she left behind must not be abandoned."

"And Adolin?"

"Adolin is a delightful surprise."

Exactly what you want in a partner, amirite? And further proof that, while the relationship between Adolin and Shallan wasn't started in the best of grounds, she has actual feelings for him that can grow into something more.

 

Conflicting evidence here a bit later:

 

The prince was wonderful, and he certainly wasn't stupid, but he was also...mentally direct.  (Shallan's thoughts.)

 

Regarding Shallan cheering up Kaladin like Tien:

 

He [Kaladin] felt like he understood.  Something.  he didn't know what.  The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

Tien always did that to me...he thought.  Even on the darkest day.

Not as blatant as I remember it, but still plenty possibly pertinent.  Also possibly pertinent to Shallan's Lightweaver/Feeding the Soul stuff.

 

Regarding my earlier comment about chasmfiends!

 

Shallan: "Sad, I know," she said, feeling depressed.  "It was beautiful."  Words spoken over the chasmfiend's corpse, and about it.

 

And a final quote of wisdom by Shallan:

 

"It frightens me," Shallan said, "because we all see the world by some kind of light personal to us, and that light changes our perception.  I don't see clearly.  I want to, but I don't know if I ever truly do."

Edited June 10, 2014 by kaellok

[Aleksiel]

Again, that's your interpretation.  I just as easily see Shallan and Adolin crashing and burning in spectacular fashion.  You wanna talk about easy?  Nothing easier than the start to their 'relationship.' And despite everything on both sides, these are characters who've spent a grand total of a couple weeks, if that, in each other's presence. Hard to judge ANY relationship on that, particularly on Shallan and Kaladin's end considering they are BOTH inexperienced and BOTH relatively young compared to Adolin who is in his mid 20s and been with countless women. Shallan and Kal meanwhile, if memory serves, are only 17 and 19 respectively. 

 

I mean, rust.  As a college kid not too long ago, I thought I'd fallen madly in love with a girl (and it happened rather easily as well and yes, it was physical to begin with as well) and rust did that fail spectacularly.  I'm talking fire and brimstone level of fail.  And we worked together.  Talk about dreadful radiation fallout. 

 

And seriously, this made all the more apparent by Adolin essentially serving as rebound fodder from Kabsal.  I mean, this is a girl, with textual evidence, that is easily drawn in by males that show interest in her.  She doesn't think much about anything despite their interest, and part of that is youth and inexperience. And partly her sheltered life.

 

We'll see though, but it's unlikely we'll know much until halfway through the 3rd book, if not the 4th or 5th.

 

I can admit, and I don't see what's so difficult on your end, that anything can and will happen between these characters.

 

Only BS knows the, hopefully, small romantic ARC to this part of the story.  And help us all he knows what he's doing, and does it well, without needless drama.

 

Of course it's my interpretation. Your opinion is also an interpretation. We look at the same facts and make two different predictions. You see Shallan's description of Kal and him comparing her to Tien as favorable to Shalladin, but I (and others) interpret the same textual evidence in a different direction. Both are interpretations and neither is canon.

 

Note that Kal hasn't compared anyone else to Tien, so it's unreasonable to claim he'll compare all girls who make him laugh to Tien. Yes, we haven't seen him laugh with another girl yet. But it's a stretch to conclude everyone who cheer him up will remind him of Tien. Bridge Four certainly didn't and Kal was trying to save them as much as he tried with Tien, they also were able to take away some of his gloom just by being there, yet he never made a comparison to his brother.

 

I'm in the Kal/Shall sibling relationship camp. That would be awesome.

 

I'd love to see Shallan with someone who can share her adventures Did anyone say Hoid? 

 

But Shallan will be great on her own, I don't think she'll end up with any of the current male characters. For now, I prefer to see her character developing without a romantic relationship, so I've voted Noone in case anyone's wondering.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

Whoops, I knew it was somewhere on tumblr (now I'm gonna link to it... Here! thank you badger for doing the good work for us) We need all of the manifestos. All of them. We can build a fort out of evidence from the manifestos that's how much we have.

 

Maybe if I chant long enough some kind soul will edit the poll and add Jasnah?

shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah shasnah 

 

Are polls editable with this forum code?  Important question.

 

Ah well, even if not - we can always just talk about Shasnah until it takes over the thread; that works too.  Maybe everyone else will be swayed to see the light once we get their reunion scene and the requisite intense hug BRANDON SO HELP ME IF THEY DON'T HUG I'LL-

[Zea mays she/her]

Oh they'll hug. Or at least Shallan will glomp-tackle the princess.

And Jasnah will be even more flabbergasted that Wit was.

[MadMartigan]

 

 

Now Kaladin is far from inexperienced! Have you forgotten Tarah? Tarah whom he held in his arms? Tarah whom we suspect he may have scored a home-run with? Tarah whom he chased away by not admitting he cared for her (as much as we can gather)? In the love and relationship department, Kaladin is more experience than Adolin. Gee do you think Adolin could have been bold enough to do much more than a kiss on the cheek with any of his courtships? 

 

When did we suddenly get a lot of knowledge about Kaladin and Tarah? All we know is than Shallan holding Kaladin was the closest he'd been with a woman since Tarah.  We've still NO idea who or what Tarah was to Kaladin.  Hell, BS may not have killed her off and might reintroduce her. We may come to love her character, yes.  But again, we have no clue.

 

 

 

Except that Adolin has never fallen in love with any of the previous girls.

 

Well, I think we can all agree that it's unknown if any character is really in love with any other at this point other than Dalinar and Navani.  We have clear signs of infatuation but I'm squeamish about labeling anything as love at this point in time.

 

 

 

 My point is I do not want to have more than half of SA chapters being about Shallan and Kaladin and having them as a couple scares me on that aspect.

 

I can give you that, if you can give me that yes, Adolin and Shallan can be a drain on the story as well.  You keep mentioning that certain characters will be a drain on the story, but no evidence to back it up.  And as Radiants, I'm sure BS won't lolly gag in romance whether it's Adolin, Shallan, OR Kaladin.  Heck, even in this story, the actual pages that discuss anything romantic in nature total maybe 10 pages in WoR entirely, give or take.  BS doesn't spend a lot of time on it.  I think he has a purpose for it in this series though, which makes it difficult to say which direction he'll actually go in.  If I've learned anything, it's that you should never go all in on a ship.  From my experience, you have a 50% chance of being right and a 50% chance of being laughably wrong.  Learned that with JK who ruined literally every character in her novel at the end by adding ridiculous, infantile level of romantic writing.  Yuck. 

 

 

 

I feel I have read enough about Kal and Shallan. I want to read more about the Kohlins, more about Adolin, more about Dalinar, more about Jasnah, more about Renarin and even more about Elhokar

 

I can respect that.  Everyone always had characters they'd prefer.  I agree with you about Jasnah.  Adolin just doesn't do it for me.  I think you can understand that. And I like the Kal/Shal exchanges enough to want to see more of that.  People like different representations of romantic relationships and interactions.  We aren't robots.  

 

 

 

Overall, I am quite crazy over Adolin in general so I tend to take his side.

 

Noted.  And also let it be noted, I love sarcasm and witty banter. And someone who challenges you.  I see the Shallan / Kaladin and interactions and (make that more playful, and not so much misunderstood fighting) and that's the relationship I WANT long term for myself.  I realize not everyone wants the same types of relationships.  But I want my life partner to be my BFF as well as love interest.  I wanna joke with her.  I mean, you want someone fun and someone you can learn something new about each day if you're going to tie yourselves to them.  There's more fun and excitement about their exchanges than Adolin.  Again, you take your preferences from your own life when you read something in a story.  

 

So, what I think we're really seeing here is gross personality differences and what we like in people we'd want for ourselves.  If that makes my points more clear about why I favor Shallan/Kaladin.

 

-------

 

And the one point I just can't give anyone is the sibling thing.  People are drawing way too much into as a way to disprove Kaladin/Shallan actually working.  Take that phrasing out and what does your argument fall back on?  

 

And I've yet to see why Kaladin automatically going to Tien in describing his own happiness means Shallan is viewed as a sister.  He clearly doesn't.  I mean, there's not even any debating that.  He views her as an attractive woman who's attention he suddenly craves.

 

And again, when describing experiences, you ARE going to use the most readily similar experience to the experience you just had.  

 

Tien made Kaladin smile with ease.  Without trying.  Shallan makes him smile with ease.  Without trying.  He's naturally going to go there, because, despite the bridge crew, they don't make him happy like Tien did.  They haven't been able to.  Not even close.  Heck, without Syl, he'd have given in.  The bridgeman didn't save him.  Syl did.  Which is why I think he uses the Tien example when describing how Shallan makes him smile.

 

I think it's because he's SURPRISED she suddenly has this ability and can't believe someone other than Tien has that ability.  That's how I read it.  And honestly, it's super weird to think Kaladin would take the older brother/Heleran stand-in role, particularly when he killed the dude. That's creepy.

[maxal she/her]

1.  And I am sure we are both equally excited to read what Adolin will do when this happens.  *sigh* two more years...

 

2.  Cool, thanks for clearing that up.  And I think i have agreed elsewhere (maybe in the other thread) that Adolin and Shallan could likely have had a similar experience.  Or at least Adolin opening up, Shallan on the other hand, as you said, feels she would have had too much to lose by sharing such a secret with him at this point.

 

3.  Nah, wasn't making an argument, and i didn't find you impartial, I was just stating how interesting it is to see people read characters so differently from myself, and how that transfers to other series as well.

 

4.  Okay, so maybe we should just say this:  Adolin certainly cares for her in the sense that he is concerned for her well being and has an interest in her future and happiness.  And i would agree with you that Shallan would certainly want this from any man she may decide to date, court, or marry.  Though Kaladin cannot be ruled out as a candidate for showing this level of caring at this point.  As for "providing care" as it relates specifically to providing shelter and protection, Shallan certainly is not interested in this from her romantic partner.

 

5.  Yeah, it will be difficult to balance screen time between Shallan and Kaladin and the rest of our viewpoint characters, they already have so much.  I think your concern about hogging page time is legitimate.  As for the bickering, I think a lot of that is more likely a refusal to understand one another at the beginning of their encounters, as well as their on misconceptions and opinions they formed before getting to know one another.  Fortunately for me as a Shalladin shipper, most of that has been successfully addressed as a result of the chasm scene, and I would expect that playful engaging banter between the two of them would be the norm from hereon out.  Kaladin's depression certainly is an issue, as is Shallan's refusal to stop lying to herself, but I don't see perpetual fighting as the inevitable result of a romantic development between the two of them.  

 

 

Good discussion, until next time.

 

1. You bet I am! I keep making scenarios in my head in how I think it may come into play....

 

2. Yeah, we had that discussion previously. Adolin is a prince and Shallan wants the relationship to work, albeit for personal reasons more than love at this point in the story, but they end result is still the same. I just cannot see why she should have open up to Adolin, on their second date, to admit she has killed both her parents............ In the long run, I agree she needs to tell him at some point. However, based on where their relationship currently is, I am not surprised she hasn't. Sharing with Kal came from a whole other set of circumstances and I feel it cannot be compared. We will see in the next book how Adolin deals with killing Sadeas.

 

3. Well from my own admission, I may be impartial   

 

4. One of Shallan's main motivation for courting Adolin was to find protection for her family... so I wouldn't say it does not rank high in her list of priorities. Adolin certainly cares: he has a strong family man vibe and once you get inside his inner circle, he'll pretty much do anything for you. However, I agree this sort of intensity may be scary to someone like Shallan even if I doubt Adolin would turn over-protective on her.

 

5. It is one of my main concern. Kaladin and Shallan had a lot of screen time in both WoK and WoR. I have enjoyed reading their plots. However, I feel we need to spend more time with our other main characters. I sincerely hope half the POV in book 3 won't be about Kal and/or Shallan. I so badly want to read more POV about the Kohlins: I feel we are missing so many parts there.

 

Yeah good discussion

 

Kaellok, I won't quote you, but good work! You have indeed did good research to show how Shallan and Adolin may have a future. We all agree Shallan got into the courtship for peculiar reasons. However, I think she did not expect she would actually like him, not love, not at this point (although I believe the reverse to be untrue), but she definitely has some interests in him besides his obvious good looks.

 

 

 

I'm in the Kal/Shall sibling relationship camp. That would be awesome.

 

I am with you on this one. They would be amazing as a adopted siblings. Also, I may point out I am afraid a Kaladin/Shallan pairing would ruined the growing bromance between Adolin and Kaladin. The only way I see Shalladin working without harming a Kal/Adolin friendship is if Adolin himself is OK with letting Shallan go. Since I do not think he will ever be OK with that as I sincerely think he is falling in love with her, well....... you get the idea.

 

 

 

I'd love to see Shallan with someone who can share her adventures Did anyone say Hoid? 

 

Oh that would be improper

[Aleksiel]

I am with you on this one. They would be amazing as a adopted siblings. Also, I may point out I am afraid a Kaladin/Shallan pairing would ruined the growing bromance between Adolin and Kaladin. 

 

Kadolin   I shall duel anyone who stands between their bromance!

[Shivertongue he/him]

Are polls editable with this forum code?  Important question.

 

Ah well, even if not - we can always just talk about Shasnah until it takes over the thread; that works too.  Maybe everyone else will be swayed to see the light once we get their reunion scene and the requisite intense hug BRANDON SO HELP ME IF THEY DON'T HUG I'LL-

 

I suppose I COULD be a nice guy and edit it...

 

Edit: There, done. Also added Hoid. For funsies.

[theravenchilde she/her]

Are polls editable with this forum code?  Important question.

 

Ah well, even if not - we can always just talk about Shasnah until it takes over the thread; that works too.  Maybe everyone else will be swayed to see the light once we get their reunion scene and the requisite intense hug BRANDON SO HELP ME IF THEY DON'T HUG I'LL-

Or the ever troped punch to the face, but hugs are better. If I may be crass, I also assume Jasnah is a lot taller than Shallan, so if/when we get a bonecrushing reunion hug, boob-in-face crushing will also occur. Actually, any hug between the two would have this happen unless they plan the hug carefully; I know this from experience. Shallan will also describe the shapeliness of Jasnah's safehand, this is a given because we like lengthy descriptions almost as much as Robert Jordan.

[MadMartigan]

You ar assuming Shallan doesn't give Jasnah the flying hug variety where she jumps up on her and wraps her legs around her waist. 

[Kogiopsis she/her]

You ar assuming Shallan doesn't give Jasnah the flying hug variety where she jumps up on her and wraps her legs around her waist. 

 

Hah, for all that Shallan's less prudish than the Alethi I don't think she's quite that free with physical affection.

 

Burying her face in Jasnah's bosom as theravenchilde suggests, however, seems almost a certainty.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Yes... but imagine: Shallan too shocked to move, and Jasnah being the one to initiate reunion hugs. Imagine.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

 

Shallan can very well end with Hoid, I'd be happy for her. 

 

That would be wierd, seeing as he's waaay older than her. I know we don't have a confirmed age for our "witty" world hopper(ba-dum-tisssh), but I'm pretty sure he was around before her grampa.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

Now Shallan and Stick, that's what I'm rooting for. 

[Aleksiel]

That would be wierd, seeing as he's waaay older than her. I know we don't have a confirmed age for our "witty" world hopper(ba-dum-tisssh), but I'm pretty sure he was around before her grampa.

 

I suppose it depends on one's perception. I know Hoid is millenniums* old, but I don't think of him as some sort of a grandpa. Shipping Lift and Kal, that sounds wrong and weird (at least until she's old enough), but Shalloid (Hollan?) is absolutely fine by me. After all only Cultivation is around his age and they don't get along, so he'll have to go for someone much younger anyway.

 

edit: * come to think of it, he might not be that old if he can time travel

Edited June 12, 2014 by Aleksiel