MadMartigan

Waiting for the day a writer has the balls to do a jazz off, flute style, to decide the fate of the world. Kal better get cracking soon. Rand started the pipes much earlier.

Grow a thicker skin, dude. You're just making stuff up and coming across incredibly self-righteous. It hasn't been all sunshine and roses from your end either. I said it was silly, and it is silly, to assign a cliche to one particular relationship, without admitting the inherent cliche in the other. I didn't call you stupid. Not even close. No. Perhaps not. You just assumed my ignorance of 80s pop-culture because of my age. How quaint. Because you casually ignored the textual evidence I supplied in the first place with my first post. I went fairly in-depth with it and I see no reason to argue where there was no further textual evidence. All we've done outside of the text is overexercise a ridiculous amount of supposition to debate the merits of either relationship. Please point that out to me. If I did, it wasn't my intention. My point was that I personally found the cliche of Shallan/Adolin to be a bit boring. It did nothing for me in story. Can't fully explain why. It just didn't. I'm not required to like everything Sanderson did, and I didn't happen to like it and I think I've made my position clear on the why. If we drew the line more clearly between theory-based "shipping" and personal "shipping" there wouldn't be a problem. But I have a problem with a circular argument revolving around assigning a brother/sister relationship to the pairing you don't like which EVERYONE always does when they don't like one pairing. It's unoriginal. If they don't become romantically involved, friends make for more sense than some sibling relationship. I don't think that's what Shallan would really need anyway. Thank you again. You said it far better than I, but that was the point I was trying to make when people's immediate dislike of Kaladin/Shallan is to assign it the "cliche label." Look hard enough, you find a cliche anywhere. Just because I can't find an example doesn't mean it doesn't exist or been used before. I'm a picky reader and don't based my reading list on romance, otherwise I wouldn't be reading BS in the first place. The possibility exists, it isn't certain, like literally everything in story that BS hasn't himself written or admitted as canon, but it exists. I view it more as just growing up more. Shallan now won't necessarily be Shallan in a week, two weeks, a month, a year. Maybe she realizes she isn't quite compatible with Adolin and wants more than a pretty face with a noble and kind personality. Maybe she wants to be challenged? It appears she likes making quips back and forth when she expected a quip from Adolin after the chasm scene. Maybe Adolin meets someone else. Maybe Shallan meets someone else. Maybe romance hits the backburner entirely in SA. Honestly, there is VERY LITTLE in the way of any of these characters thinking about the other character. You could probably fit them all on two pages. Maybe less. Everything is still in an infantile stage. Clearly Shallan, Kal, and Adolin will be separated for some measure of time. Anything can and will happen. Maybe I came off too aggressively because of how I viewed the textual support I found. Maybe not. People ask why I won't give leeway into their theories? Well, I've yet to see the supporters of Shadolin admit to the possibilities that exist within Shallan/Kaladin. They don't have to like it. I don't want them to. But if I should see their side, maybe they should admit to the possibilities of my thoughts? I honestly have no dog in this fight. From a personal opinion, I thought reading Adolin/Shallan was a drag, mainly because BS really went overboard with Shallan's attraction to Adolin. Literally, every thought is "my god, his face" ----> panties/shift/w/e wet. Hyperbolic much, yes, but it was just mind-numbingly cheesy imo.

Thought that was was obvious. Girl attracted to two friends, picks the safe choice. Has babies with him. That man dies, and she eventually gets on the other man she was attracted to, but scared her with his intensity. Very generic, but cliches built in. It's like the weird love triangle thing in the Pearl Harbor movie only a little more complex. Like I said, most things start off as a cliche. It's up to the writer to provide new angles and make old cliches, new and refreshing. And my point is that if you look at everything in literature, film, etc, you ARE going to see cliches everywhere. It's a fact of life considering how long we've been telling stories. The same generally story has been told ad-nausea for centuries. You just get subtle changes that flip things around on occasion. All I'm doing is pointing out the silliness of calling Kaladin/Shallan a cliche, but ignoring the fact that Adolin/Shallan is just as much as cliche (and in BS's writing it is also a trope he's used twice in other books....so there's that as well.) You all are arguing cliches, when it really just comes down to personal preference for you. You prefer the Adolin/Shallan cliche dynamic. From what I've read and others have read, we prefer the Kal/Shall cliche dynaimc. It's all about perspective. I imagine many hate both of the potential relationships. That's my point. Dont' direct that just at me. Plenty of folks on the other side of the fence argue away their being any textual evidence / arguing against Shallan/Kaladin ins't supporting Shadolin either. Not sure why I'm being singled out. Plenty in this thread were far more difficult.

I know perfectly well what a cliche is and what a trope is thank you very much. And I know Romancing the Stone as well thank you very much. Seen both it and its sequel a handful of times actually because I like them so much. And I never said Kaladin/Shallan wasn't a cliche or an overused trope. I said you'd have to pick a minor character to pair with Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin to avoid ANY cliches. Which is why it is mind-numbingly silly to say one is a cliche while the other isn't. They all other. Outside of crack pairing, everything's been done to death. Adding spice to it all and writing it well is all that matters. You say BS changed Adolin/Shallan dynamic. No. He didn't change their dynamic he merely changed the circumstances the characters now find themselves. Nothing preventing the same from happening to Shallan/Kaladin. You're getting way too wrapped up in the shipping game of what you want. I'm approaching it more from a theory, textual basis and on that front, either relationship or none at all, has an equal chance of happening because... The ride is nowhere close to be finished. And you could say Adolin is the HS QB while Shallan is the slightly nerdy chick, who gets a make over (radiant powers) and becomes head of the cheerleading squad. We can play this game all day long. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of calling anything in fiction a cliche. Everything is. Comes from stories having been around, written or verbal, since humans developed the art of communication.

Good point, jefftucker. Without the requisite knowledge of human behavior, emotion, etc, I feel Pattern would come to many of the same deductions Mr. T came to when he went Super Saiyan with the intelligence factor.

Well, based off WoR, Shallan. Nothing "cliche" about main characters getting together. People use 'cliche' so much, the very word itself has become a cliche. You could argue that EVERY romantic relationship is a cliche. Dalinar/Navani being the biggest. But enough on that. I liked their interactions and Shallan was flustered when she said she couldn't even describe what Kaladin was as a way to say to herself that he was no better than Adolin, then proceeds to go on it. I've already spent the time on the why in the Shallan thread, so I don't need to get into that again. Suffice to say, Kaladin's best match so far is Shallan. And if not her... Hopefully BS reintroduces Tarah, but we've no idea if she's still living, if she's married, or if she were merely a female friend. Barring that, give the poor sucker a kickass female Radiant who's a warrior. A warrior who's also a practical joker, suffer no BS type. Almost like an Aviendha, only with a funny bone in her body. Dude needs someone to make him laugh and smile and start ridding him of his doom and gloom for a change. Which is why I've settled on Shallan for the meantime. In any event, keep him away from Jasnah. He might kill himself if he's around her too long. You know, this would actually be really interesting. I mean, really interesting. Time for some split relationships with the Parshendi and Alethi! There are some similarities to this pairing. You want more non-cliche? Bridge the gap between the two people. But...Adolin would have to deal with her being taller. She is taller, right? That's humor enough as is. He'd have to wear shardplate to dance with Eshonai. Or, Eshonai would lead. It'd be Esholin by the by. On the flip side, for those that sport Shallan/Adolin, I'm always thoroughly confused as to how people don't find that dynamic just as cliched and overused as main characters getting together. Dalinar/Navani are....boring as well to tell the truth. I'm not sure you're going to avoid romantic relationships used unless you pair Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan with entirely different characters not even introduced yet or ones that have yet to get much screen time. I mean, Adolin and Shallan is the typical (hot, destitute girl with a dark past meets super hot princeling in arranged marriage and bump them uglies faster than you can say babies). That's my thought anyway.

You ar assuming Shallan doesn't give Jasnah the flying hug variety where she jumps up on her and wraps her legs around her waist.

When did we suddenly get a lot of knowledge about Kaladin and Tarah? All we know is than Shallan holding Kaladin was the closest he'd been with a woman since Tarah. We've still NO idea who or what Tarah was to Kaladin. Hell, BS may not have killed her off and might reintroduce her. We may come to love her character, yes. But again, we have no clue. Well, I think we can all agree that it's unknown if any character is really in love with any other at this point other than Dalinar and Navani. We have clear signs of infatuation but I'm squeamish about labeling anything as love at this point in time. I can give you that, if you can give me that yes, Adolin and Shallan can be a drain on the story as well. You keep mentioning that certain characters will be a drain on the story, but no evidence to back it up. And as Radiants, I'm sure BS won't lolly gag in romance whether it's Adolin, Shallan, OR Kaladin. Heck, even in this story, the actual pages that discuss anything romantic in nature total maybe 10 pages in WoR entirely, give or take. BS doesn't spend a lot of time on it. I think he has a purpose for it in this series though, which makes it difficult to say which direction he'll actually go in. If I've learned anything, it's that you should never go all in on a ship. From my experience, you have a 50% chance of being right and a 50% chance of being laughably wrong. Learned that with JK who ruined literally every character in her novel at the end by adding ridiculous, infantile level of romantic writing. Yuck. I can respect that. Everyone always had characters they'd prefer. I agree with you about Jasnah. Adolin just doesn't do it for me. I think you can understand that. And I like the Kal/Shal exchanges enough to want to see more of that. People like different representations of romantic relationships and interactions. We aren't robots. Noted. And also let it be noted, I love sarcasm and witty banter. And someone who challenges you. I see the Shallan / Kaladin and interactions and (make that more playful, and not so much misunderstood fighting) and that's the relationship I WANT long term for myself. I realize not everyone wants the same types of relationships. But I want my life partner to be my BFF as well as love interest. I wanna joke with her. I mean, you want someone fun and someone you can learn something new about each day if you're going to tie yourselves to them. There's more fun and excitement about their exchanges than Adolin. Again, you take your preferences from your own life when you read something in a story. So, what I think we're really seeing here is gross personality differences and what we like in people we'd want for ourselves. If that makes my points more clear about why I favor Shallan/Kaladin. ------- And the one point I just can't give anyone is the sibling thing. People are drawing way too much into as a way to disprove Kaladin/Shallan actually working. Take that phrasing out and what does your argument fall back on? And I've yet to see why Kaladin automatically going to Tien in describing his own happiness means Shallan is viewed as a sister. He clearly doesn't. I mean, there's not even any debating that. He views her as an attractive woman who's attention he suddenly craves. And again, when describing experiences, you ARE going to use the most readily similar experience to the experience you just had. Tien made Kaladin smile with ease. Without trying. Shallan makes him smile with ease. Without trying. He's naturally going to go there, because, despite the bridge crew, they don't make him happy like Tien did. They haven't been able to. Not even close. Heck, without Syl, he'd have given in. The bridgeman didn't save him. Syl did. Which is why I think he uses the Tien example when describing how Shallan makes him smile. I think it's because he's SURPRISED she suddenly has this ability and can't believe someone other than Tien has that ability. That's how I read it. And honestly, it's super weird to think Kaladin would take the older brother/Heleran stand-in role, particularly when he killed the dude. That's creepy.

Sorry, but no. I'm not giving you that. You most certainly did create a logical fallacy and you're pointedly ignoring it. I asked who else Kaladin could possibly compare Shallan's ability to make him smile so easily? If you want to actually have a rebuttal to my argument, then tell me. His life, especially the later half of his 19 years, has been known little in the way of people who make him smile other than his brother. So of course the logical comparison of happiness is going to be Tien. The only other logical comparison is Syl. Honestly, you're trying WAAAAAAY too hard to go out of your way to prove either A:) Shallan and Kaladin is creepy or B;) It's chance of happening is impossible. That's irritating. I may as well debate this with a rock. Or my TV. Now you're just being childish. There's no instant reaction. There's a going into it: "I rather like these stock personality traits in a girl, because that means she's a quality person." And seriously WHY WOULDN'T Kaladin want a potential life partner who could cheer him up at the drop of a hat. Shallan doesn't do it in the same way as Tien. Not in the slightest. If she does, I challenge you to point out textual evidence backing that argument up. Otherwise, you're just making it up to convince yourself. Holy hell ballz. I don't remember Shallan using the same ways of Tien to cheer Kaladin up. Is Shallan suddenly wearing a Tien illusion? My god man, they are two different characters. The only comparison Kaladin is making is the ease with which Shallan makes him smile. The only basis of easily smiling that Kaladin has to go on is Tien. There's no one else. No one. Not Laral. He had no real childhood friends growing up. Clearly no one in his original brigade. There's Tarah, but he's mentioned precious little of her and no one has any idea what his relationship to her was(is). He only has Syl. And Syl is a spren that's a manifestation of his own thoughts in combination with other things. Now tell me you aren't letting your bias override everything, because it's plainly evident how hot and hard you trying to convince me of some non-existent creepiness factor regarding Kal and Shal. In fact, I find it mildly disturbing you're trying so hard to put them into a sibling relationship. You really must be deathly afraid of a Kal and Shal relationship. I honestly don't give two craps who ends with who as long as it makes sense and isn't written terribly. I'm a realist. What happens, happens. And I've based my entire argument around the actual source material and the source material tells me there's 'something' more to Kaladin and Shallan. What is that? I've no idea yet, but their interactions and descriptions of each other tell me something may be under the surface, possibly romantic, that they haven't realized. They may never realize it. They may ignore it. It may be a flash in the pan, then over thing, on to different people or back to people. I don't presume to know. But I'm not arrogant or silly enough to form some weird, creepy sibling dynamic of Kaladin becoming the older brother figure to Shallan that Heleron should have been. Now that's weird as ballz. At any rate, I think I've debated all I can with you. I clearly can't get you to acknowledge my points, so there's not any other real purpose to this but to waste time for shits and giggles. I'll dive into some of the other topics instead.

I think that's your bias taking hold. Honestly, in Kaladin's life, how many people have made him smile? Been able to cheer him up? The man has been through one hell after another. His brother, so far, has been the only one to make him smile. Using your argument, ANY female that is able to cheer up Kal as successfully as Tien, automatically makes that potential coupling creepy. It's almost a catch-22 you've argued yourself into. Some weird logical fallacy that makes any female who cheers Kal up, into a sister figure. Now THAT is odd. I think it's incredibly complimentary of Shallan for Kal to say that Shallan has been the only one to cheer him up as successfully as Tien. And hell, using your argument, me wanting to find a future wife figure that's as generous and caring as MY mother....is also creepy. That's just patently false. I just wanted a genuine, good, person to spend my life with. Someone who is my best friend, confidant, and lover. That's the dream. The fact is, humans compare other humans to humans they already know. That's where their base knowledge and experience is with. You aren't going to compare the person you've just met, to a stranger you haven't. That just makes no sense. The easy, unexplainable way Shallan brings joy and smiles to doom and gloom Kaladin should be reason enough to think there's potential. Reading several more books of doom and gloom Kaladin would be incredibly boring. That's stagnant character development. And BS is a better writer than that. All of his characters usually change in dynamic ways. Don't see why Shallan, in a progressively more romantic help, changing Kaladin is such a problem. Kaladin and Shallan growing because of each other is not a development that is mutually exclusive. Their growth can happen, and yes together. Just because two people are broken, doesn't mean they can't form a hole, can't still learn from each other. That's an incredibly pessimistic view point that's doesn't hold its weight in salt. The ones who really have to work at it anyway, imo, are generally able to weather things more. If it's too easy, you get complacent. Take it for granted. And I've always been intrigued by relationships that can't possibly work, end up working better than ones that, superficially, appear they should work like a well oiled machine. Means theirs hope for anyone. And Shallan/Adolin looks like, superficially, it could work like a well oiled machine. And again, there's nothing interesting, imo, in literature, about a romantic relationship that doesn't require some extra elbow grease to make work. Which is why, if its Shallan/Adolin, I'd prefer to way on the backburner. BS isn't skilled enough at romance to juggle such drama as a 3-way emo fest. Few, if any, are.

Again, that's your interpretation. I just as easily see Shallan and Adolin crashing and burning in spectacular fashion. You wanna talk about easy? Nothing easier than the start to their 'relationship.' And despite everything on both sides, these are characters who've spent a grand total of a couple weeks, if that, in each other's presence. Hard to judge ANY relationship on that, particularly on Shallan and Kaladin's end considering they are BOTH inexperienced and BOTH relatively young compared to Adolin who is in his mid 20s and been with countless women. Shallan and Kal meanwhile, if memory serves, are only 17 and 19 respectively. I mean, rust. As a college kid not too long ago, I thought I'd fallen madly in love with a girl (and it happened rather easily as well and yes, it was physical to begin with as well) and rust did that fail spectacularly. I'm talking fire and brimstone level of fail. And we worked together. Talk about dreadful radiation fallout. And seriously, this made all the more apparent by Adolin essentially serving as rebound fodder from Kabsal. I mean, this is a girl, with textual evidence, that is easily drawn in by males that show interest in her. She doesn't think much about anything despite their interest, and part of that is youth and inexperience. And partly her sheltered life. We'll see though, but it's unlikely we'll know much until halfway through the 3rd book, if not the 4th or 5th. I can admit, and I don't see what's so difficult on your end, that anything can and will happen between these characters. Only BS knows the, hopefully, small romantic ARC to this part of the story. And help us all he knows what he's doing, and does it well, without needless drama.

I've never gotten this argument. Drain too much of the story? When has BS EVER written that much about romance? Heck, when Vin/Elend get together, BS really doesn't use much screen time at all about their relationship. I think you must be using examples of other novels where romance has gotten in the way. BS has yet to show that he gives way to plot in favor of romance. I've yet to see it. And as for "mains" getting together....Still don't get that complaint. It'll only be boring if BS's writing makes it boring. Adolin/Shallan could be written in an incredibly stiff, boring manner as well of predictable arranged marriage variety. Take Castle for example. Stana Katic and Nathan Filion have great chemistry and banter and that relationship hasn't gotten boring in the least bit to me. It's all a matter of perspective anyway. You clearly hated Min/Rand and clearly dislike Shallan/Adolin and I and others are the opposite. We'd be a boring chull human race if we all agreed all the time and liked every little same thing. And again with the siblings thing. I still don't this. At the very least, we can all agree that the tricycle has hardly spent enough time in each other's presence to even KNOW how their relationship would mature. Shallan may grow to dislike her possible match isn't the type to match wits with her. Maybe she thinks it too boring. Maybe Shallan would be overwhelmed by Kaladin's intense passion about a great many things and that wouldn't work. Way too early to know. Shallan and Kaladin's interactions could mature to the point that their verbal sparing is just playful. I mean, since the chasm, they've hardly interacted to know what they'd be like. So that point is rather disingenuous. The point is, both relationships honestly need time to grow first. I'll admit that straight up despite my preferences made by the textual evidence and what I find intriguing about the story as is. And kind, genuine, and noble? Sounds rather like a boring stick figure with blah personality traits to me. ( I think this isn't the case, but poking fun at the sass). The only SURE thing we know is that BOTH Kal and Adolin are really digging them some redheaded foxy fox that comes pre-packaged with sass and attitude. She's a new type of female for the both of them. No one can say for sure what Shallan exactly feels for either. So far all we have to go on are that she finds both attractive, good men, with descriptions being more thought out in regards to Kal.

Another? People from different social classes and ethnic backgrounds fall in love with each other all the time. How is that any more of a trope than penniless (yes, penniless, despite being a lighteyes) woman falls for hunky, dashing knight in shining armor with a big a darkness swirling around him? I think people confuse tropes and use them as excusable reasons why they don't like a particular pairing. Doesn't make much sense. Why do people always force a "brother/sister" relationship on the relationship they don't care for? The brother/sister thing is as much of a trope as the other tropes used to describe Kal/Shal. Even if romance isn't B.S's strong suit, I think we can give him enough benefit of the doubt to write it better than Stephanie "puke-fest" Myers. What's easier than arranged marriage of penniless, broken family hotty bumping uglies with dream boat swordmaster? I think shipping clouds people judgements when describing what's "easy". There's nothing currently easy about a Kal/Shal relationship working, especially now, especially as Radiants. Well, she drove it, because until she learned of her family situation, there was always going to be that niggling at the back of her mind that the relationship HAS to work, for her family. She explains this countless times in the lead-up to meeting Adolin. No, it isn't quite so shallow nowadays, but still has that feelings. Last I checked, Kal was 19-20. When did he suddenly gain 5 years of life? Does stormlight give dudes the dreamy salt and pepper look? Sorry. Couldn't help that. Word. Adolin is by far the safe choice. The choice that already exists. All she needs to do is continue walking forward with him. No drama there. Kaladin is the unknown. And what few thoughts she'd had on him, have all been pretty complex for a guy she "hardly knows" as opposed to the betrothed should know more about. I do find it strange for a girl so sheltered and used to having all of her decisions being made for her, fights so hard for a relationship Jasnah all but put on her because of her abilities. Seems rather strange. I wonder if you take out any supposed arranged marriage with Adolin, and she just met Kal, and then Adolin, how her emotions regarding the two would be. I honestly think she's still coming into her own as finally making decisions for herself. Adolin is one of the last ties to something someone else suggested/wanted for her. Fear of her betrothed not accepting her and her reasons? I don't think that's the argument you want to use to prop up Shallan/Adolin. Hammers home the lack of trust and understanding thus far in that relationship. Might one to try something else. To each his/her own. Convinced? You may have a point. Though after what she learned, I learn she was powerfully DETERMINED to live in order to get the information she gained to Dalinar. I don't see any 100% proof of anything other than finding no reason to give up what she already has. She's doubly in a position of power as Radiant and as betrothed to Adolin. And honestly, you could even say that Adolin is the rebound from Kabsal. Errr......What proof of this do you have or are you pulling it out of the hat? Kaladin has had several people to protect and even succeeded at it. Ultimately, I think what he really was, and most certainly what Syl wants, is someone to make him happy. To get him smiling again. Despite his damndest not to, Shallan gets him smiling. Others have already gone over this, but just thinking about her in the last 90ish pages helps turn his sour mood. Shallan's problem is self-deprecation. She thinks she's really fragile and pretends she isn't because she believes she is. If that makes sense. She's far stronger than she actually thinks she is. Mask or no mask, the fact that she's able to push aside her deficiencies and pain is strength on its own. A different kind, but strength no less. Kaladin recognizes this and highly respects it. I think Kaladin would be great in Shallan's developing confidence in herself. I honestly think with Kaladin, Shallan would be more likely to face her darkness than say, with Adolin. Kaladin has already affirmed that, if only in his head. Point is, if you view yourself as weak and unable to cope, you'll always be weak and unable to cope. And regardless of whether she has to block out the pain to cope, that's still a strength. A single minded focus to put aside your pain for more important things. Is it healthy? No. But the dynamic of coping mechanisms, strength, duty, honor, love, truth, and lies between Kaladin and Shallan, and how they are the two sides of a broken coin, is definitely interesting, which is partly why together, they are so intriguing. Except when she talks about it with Kal. This has me picturing the button from the Staples commercial, or even that annoying chull buzzer in the game "Taboo." Ahh, fond memories of that buzzer.

So you want the typical trope of "dude #1 has more money, so he has more to offer by default?" Heavens pray I never date a soul sucking gold digger like that.

Er...I wasn't comparing them with V&E. I said, as of WoR, there hasn't really been any interesting tensions between the two. And honestly, my point was that the interactions between Shallan and Adolin have been boring. It's been swooning and "on my, he's hot" on Shallan's part whenever she's around Adolin. Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Attraction typically starts with the physical. But that's all it's been so far. That, and stock personality traits. My point was that I just found it intriguing that for all the supposed crushing on Adolin for his looks and his goodly nature and that he's her betrothed, she struggles to come up with ways to describe him (and she's been around him more) than Kaladin, who she internally describes in great detail after confessing to herself she doesn't know how to. So much in fact, she blocks Adolin out completely. I just found that interesting is all. I think the point everyone can agree with is there is no definitive textual support either way for who Shallan cares most for. So far, we know for certain that both the fools care for her, Kaladin only recently. And I don't think it's sisterly affection poor Kal is aiming more when he admits to her beauty and focuses on her red hair, wants to catch her attention, then thinks of her randomly toward the end. Once again confusing what I've read, mate. All I've basically said is that Shallan/Kaladin interactions in the book have been far more entertaining and yes, I'll agree with you, romance is Sanderson's weakest part in writing. Much like J.K. Rowling. We get no context of how they fit together though. Though that scene does spark some jealousy in Kaladin, so at the very least, kernels of attraction are forming on Kaladin's end as he admits he could hate that they fit together. And I'll argue just how well they actually fit together. Much like the dreadful Ron/Hermione saga of laughability in that pairing. No, the extreme of them just not fitting together isn't nearly as strong, but from my reading, Adolin/Shallan just don't fit the way Kaladin/Shallan fit. Like I admitted, if romance is going to be a talking point in the book, I want something interesting out of it, otherwise it seems rather unnecessary. You are free to think the opposite of me. No one reads the text the same way. But as I've read it, the more intriguing pairing is the you don't like. I've not said that at all and I apologize if you've misconstrued my arguments. My point in that section was that Shallan typically focuses on Adolin's beauty (understandable yes, especially considering her cloistered upbringing and inexperience or really, lack-thereof entirely in romantic entanglements). My point was more toward when describing Adolin's good qualities, her monologues have generally been very quick, using stock personality traits. As I said "genuine", "noble", "kind." When she considers Kal, she uses "passion" a lot to describe him. And again, when Shallan had that monologue after expecting verbal quips from Adolin, she went into heavy detail describing the type of person Kaladin was. My point throughout has been "well huh, that's interesting. She confesses to not know what it is about Kal, then goes on to describe him anyway, while using very generic terms to describe her betrothed." The only times I brought up physical attraction between the two was how Shallan used more natureesque terminology. Just found it interesting. Rather snide. You're talking the shipping way too seriously. Well, as it happens, I'd say someone to actually confide in. She's been in a great many tense situations and not laid bear her dark secrets to anyone before and does so with Kal? Does that make him special? Who's to say. But she did and that means something. And honestly, you can debate it all day long, but from my POV, she'd more herself around Kal than Adolin. But again, the actual screen time to make any definitive conclusions either way is painfully small, like a small sample size in baseball. Which is why i prefaced my 1st post by admitting it's probably WAAAAAYYY too early for anything. I can't imagine their being much time for actual marriages anytime soon. As a Radiant, Shallan has far more pressing matters. Though I found it intriguing when Pattern said it was time, Shallan pleaded to be able to keep "pretending". W/e that means, I'm not sure. Well stated. Definitely hammers home how differently people view and read things authors write. I agree with everything you said on Rand/Elayne. Most contrived, troped relationship in WoT. Love at 1st sight with princess. Rather annoying. So it we disagree with them there, makes sense we disagree about TSLA relationships. Word. Heck, Min being around Rand is probably what kept the sorry sucker from completely unhinging far sooner than he did. That relationship definitely felt more genuine, though Aviendha was the most. She was definitely the girl he tried the hardest and longest in understanding who she was. It's infatuation and lust all around for the tricycle at this point. Not been around each other nearly long enough for those conclusions. I thought the text made it pretty clear Shallan doesn't want anything 'caring' for or 'controlling' her. I see care, I assume it means "to mind someone". Shallan made that clear when Adolin professed to protect her. She immediately stiffened up. As opposed to when Kaladin said he'd divert the chasm fiend, her reaction was for him not to leave her alone and get himself killed. Preach it, mate. What matters is the relationship in the context of the story. Every 'story' has been retold ad-nausea as this point. What matters a story compelling is how well the characters are written and how well you add new things to tropes used over and over again. That was exactly my argument. Thanks for simplifying it. Makes more sense. But I'll add to that, again, it isn't just physical attraction that Shallan spends more thought on with Kal than Adolin. It's the personality descriptions as well. So far complex, thought out descriptions > generic personality tropes like "kind." I would hope my betrothed, loved one, gf, what not, could come up with a bit more than that to describe me. That's throwaway terminology right there. That'd be more like an insult than a compliment. Those chasmfiends looks fugly as all get out. I think you need to look at her descriptions in the context of what they mean in regards to Kal. She put more effort into describing in what ways Kaladin's is passionate, stoic, and steady, and controlled. "Like the rocks and wind" Heck, I think Kal would love the metaphors Shallan used in the right context.

To be fair, you could flip that entirely around. How boring is it to have the lower rank Shallan fall for the high blood, sword master of a prince? As I said. Almost like Egwene and Gawyn all over again, which was honestly, imo, the biggest waste of a relationship. But then, I hated the characters of both Gawyn and Galad the most. Remember though, while Kaladin is dark and gloomy, he was flashing smiles and opening up around Shallan, particularly after the chasm. And personally, I rather think Kaladin would prefer to be positive. No one WANTS to be a depressed sorry sucker. That's just the hand Kaladin's character got dealt. People bring up Jasnah as an alternative, but hot damnation, do you want the guy even more repressed? Not sure Jasnah has a funny bone in her body. I actually don't ship anyone in this one, and I've kinda tempered it. Authors always seem to go in the opposite direction I want. I just based things off what I read. And this isn't Ron/Hermione (most annoying thing to read ever). I think they actually like the verbal sparring. And I wouldn't say it was fighting so much new people not knowing much about each other. And not sure what you find that isn't boring about Shallan/Adolin. Isn't even any drama like Vin/Elodin. I'll give you that Adolin probably is developing feelings for Shallan. She's not a shallow light-eyes like most of the women he's familiar with. But what has Shallan shown but physical attraction? Like I said, she's spent all this time with Adolin and the best she can come up with are stock personality traits she likes about him. One day with Kaladin and she's using metaphors about her 1st love (nature) to describe. As an outside reader into her thoughts, that just says more to me. But who can say? W/e Brandon writes or spends time on, I just hope it's written well. I wasn't convinced with the Adolin/Shallan thing in WoR. Maybe that'll change. If so, great. Right now though, still seems a bit forced in order to interject drama.

I"m super late to this discussion. Got distracted while reading WoR with work and other novels. So, forgive me if I'm giving life back to a super dead topic or repeating discussion points. I've read some of this thread, but not all of it. Onwards to my thoughts! Before I get to my "pick".... First, lemme preface by saying it is way too incredibly early to honestly say. It's entirely possible everyone dies before any serious relationship really starts (children, marriage, vows, etc). I mean, in the long run, not even Vin and Elodin really got into it. Hell, there really wasn't much in the way of romance in Mistborn (wasn't really even much time for it) and a heckuva lot more is happening in the SLA. Secondly, I echo what many have already said. Please, no three way love triangles. I've yet to read or watch one that I can honestly stomach. Either poorly written or its used for the sake of drama. Now, on to my choice. 1. Suffice to say, there were few things boring or off in WoR. The biggest was Shallan/Adolin interactions. I see some people just love the heck out of that pairing and I just don't get it. B.S. is light years ahead of literary filth of your Stephanie Myers and her ilk, but their interactions always seemed painfully like teenage girl crushing on talk, dark, and handsome. It's a relationship that's just too... easy and predictable. Though yes, you can say that about Kaladin/Shallan as well I suppose. But honestly, the pairing bores me to death and if that is what B.S. has chosen, the less it is in the book, the better. 2. Finishing up that, yes, I agree with others as well that the relationship just seemed a bit shallow. It starts as a strategy on Shallan's end to protect her family and bring them out of debt. On Jasnah's end, it is a way to, not so much shackle, but bind her to her family simply because of her abilities. I mean, page 306: "Needed to make the betrothal to Adolin go forward. Not just for her family, but for the good of the world. Shallan would need the allies and resources that would give her." Adolin basically starts out as just another pawn for Shallan to use, much like Jasnah has her own. When Shallan meets Adolin, then it becomes sexual infatuation/lust on Shallan's end, mixed in with the overall goal of wooing him not for her, but for her family and the world. It's means to an end. Kind of an empty attraction based in lies. 3. Then you have Adolin who just seems to want the marriage match making to come to an end. B.S. seems to go out of his way to explain how much of a marriage of convenience this would be for the both of them. Page 332. 4. I did find an interesting bit on page 257, which somewhat brushes the surface of why Shallan/Kaladin make more sense. "You live lives," Pattern said. "It gives you strength. But the truth . . . Without speaking truths, you will not be able to grow, Shallan." And who does Shallan end up speaking the most painful of truths about herself to? It certainly isn't her betrothed. 5. Now, the scene where Shallan/Kaladin meet is probably, from a humor standpoint, one of the more entertaining interactions B.S. has ever written. It was downright hilarious to see Kaladkin so tongue-tied and unsure of how to respond. Yes, Shallan was wearing a "mask" but that was her. Despite the masks, being a playful smartass with attitude is who she is. The interactions with Adolin...she seems to neuter that side of her personality. Adolin isn't very quick to pick up on her teasing. No verbal banter and sparring between them. - And let me make the parallel here and yes, it's the Robert Joran parallel. I can't be the only one who thought the Rand/Elayne story lines were dithering, bloating, boring eye-sores. In a way, Rand/Elayne (or even Egwene/Gawyn) mirror Shallan/Adolin in terms of "please, making it stop. I don't want to read them anymore." While Rand/Min - Rand/Aviendha were awesome. Min/Shallan have a lot in common. No sufferers of BS. Lighthearted. Like to have fun and be playful. Min drove Rand mad in a good way. Aviendha had a lot more dry humor/bluntness that was also hilarious. Then you have the best possible parallel in terms of enjoyment of interactions. Matt/Tuon. Best interactions from a 'romantic point' and B.S. nailed that. In fact, I think some of that leaked over into the interactions of Shallan with Kaladin. Let's face it. Kaladin hardly lets anyone get under his skin. I don't think any character quite got under his skin like Shallan in WoR. Shame for Matt in regards to Tuon. Whip smart women. - 6. Then you have Shallan and Kaladin's second meeting and right back to the entertaining verbal sparring. I don't think B.S. writes things for no reason, and their interactions are more developed than almost any other pairing in this series, no matter what the relationships are. 7. An interesting, most likely throw away line on page 557 stuck with me when Shallan is joking with her brothers about love and thinking up ways to describe it. One of her firsts is "Love is like a pile of chull dung. For even as we try to avoid both, we end up stepping in them anyway." This certainly would apply to Kaladin down the line after opening up to Shallan. ------- 8. Pattern again brings up that Shallan has to remember what she did and that she must know herself. (pg. 737) 9. Their spanreed conversation...wince worthy. No...emotion. Just bland. 10. Then of course, we come to the chasm scene. It is one part playful verbal sparing (loved the exchange from the end of page 823-824. That's awesome. Does anyone honestly see that kind of interaction between Shallan and Adolin? I don't.) That scene is also one part painful, brutal honesty. Probably the most honest about themselves they've been to another human being. Probably the most Shallan's been honest with anyone in her life. Amazing how quick she was to bear her soul and the lies she'd been holding. She's not a weak character by any means so you can't blame that on the stress. And Kaladin...He's honest yes, but has he ever let that side of his emotions out to anyone other than Syl? And also, Shallan is the one to really sway his thoughts on light-eyes. Dalinar helped yes. But he wasn't completely successful. Syl tried for how long? 11. Compare to the way Shallan describes Kaladin. "Severe eyes." "Intensity." (page 835) 12. And Kaladin. I think he realizes he's different and he doesn't like that because it'd turned his hate on its head. (pg. 844) 13. pg. 849 is the penultimate page that seals those two for me. I don't think anyone has ever pulled Kaladin apart and exposed what's in his broken heart like that. "He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken. Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway." Others have brought this exchange up before, but I think that, right there, is the character to help drive Kaladin on and to 'hope' again. He was broken and he had no idea how to be happy. Or even to hide his sorrow. Shallan smiles anyway. That's honestly what the poor fool needs to learn most. To smile in spite of. They're two bent, scratched sides of the same coin imo. But just because they're broken, doesn't mean they can't help each other. Honestly, they each have what the other needs. Shallan needs truth and honesty in her life. Pattern has told her as much. Who better to teach that than a man steeped in honor and truth? And Kaladin needs help learning to be happy despite being broken. To still feel. He's been one depressed mofo in both books. They're sufficiently alike and unlike each other to be a fantastic, entertaining much. B.S. seems to go out of his way describing just how much they mesh with the way they talk to each other, as well as how unlike they are by describing in great detail how they view storms and rain. What does a Shallan/Adolin relationship do? Honestly, what do they learn from each other? Pg. 850. Bottom 3rd. Amazing how easy it is for Shallan to get Kaladin to smile. She doesn't even have to try at it. The most depressing man in the SLA, metaphorically brought to his knees in smiles and wordplay by a little redheaded girl. Yes, Syl has done that, but we're talking about human effect on him. 14. When Shallan brings up Adolin during their exchange, his mood blackens. At this point, it may not be so obvious how Shallan really sees Kaladin and in what way, but you can damnation well be certain that Kaladin is feeling it for Shallan. Slowly but surely. Page 877 is all but Kaladin's greatest compliment to a character that's been written so far in regards to Shallan. 15. For those wondering about Kaladin's "protection" issues. He pretty much admitted she was far stronger than him. And he did "protect her" in the chasms. Interestingly enough, when Adolin even sniffs of protecting her, she spazes out about being locked away. She has more to worry about in that regard with Adolin than Kaladin who, when he's still lost Syl, wishes her better luck as a radiant and likely to do a better job. At this point, I don't think there's a character Kal respects more than Shallan after their heart to heart. 16. "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile." The poor chap wishes for the attention she gives Adolin and comments about how well they fit. But seriously? From the way B.S. has written them, Shallan and Kaladin seem like pieces from the same puzzle while Adolin and Shallan is like a square peg in a circular hole. 17. Pg. 936: "She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn't. That was alright. She liked Adolin as he was." Kal on the mind much? Admit it. She loves witty banter. Adolin isn't the type to provide it. Now the most interesting part of that age. I don't think there's any real argument that Shallan's first and foremost love has almost always been nature. It's what drove her passions growing up and what a lot of her inner monologues have been about. Shallan always describes Adolin with the most basic of adjectives. He's "confident." (page 568*) "those eyes." (pg 567*) At this point, I find it interesting she tells herself to be careful because of Kabsal. Easily infatuated for those who show interest in her. "Friendly way about him." (pg. 578*) Then on page 936, she describes him as "kind, noble, and 'genuine'". Again, throw away, stock adjectives that can be applied to anyone with relative accuracy. Then she claims not to know how to define what Kaladin is, but then goes on to describe him quite intensely. This is the second time she's compared him to things in nature. The first was comparing their looks and how Kaladin was a statue I think while Adolin picturesque beauty. "Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain temping arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were---or what you did---you could not hurt him. Could not change him. He was. Like the wind and rocks were." The best she can come up with for Adolin is noble and genuine? Then claims not to know how to describe her bridgeboy, but ranting inside her head for a good while about him, and in great detail, to the point she loses her train of thought and Adolin talking to her? Weird. Just kinda confirms that Adolin is the target mainly of her lusts while Kaladin is that type that is more than the sum of his parts. The type she'd actually choose for herself if everything were the same. I guess I just find it strange for people to see great compatibility with Adolin and Shallan, when there's no textual facts to back that up. The only chemistry you see is physical and even then, that's gradually taken over when Shallan starts comparing the two of them in her head every now and then, the complexity of descriptions mainly centering around Kaladin. I can't think B.S. is doing that for no reason. After all, Adolin and Shallan with no problems is even more boring than it already is. Like many though, I hope this isn't a Lancelot/Arthur/Gwen as told by B.S. Hope it's more of a mutual understanding that Adolin and Shallan, as is, just don't really fit and he doesn't dwell too much on romantic drama. Like I said before though, entirely possible B.S. doesn't dwell long at all. Kal has his duty as a radiant now and Shallan hers. Unlikely to see much of each other. Most of thoughts will be monologues about each other. I'll kindly be skipping an Adolin/Shallan romantic scenes. It's just so painfully awkward and boring a trope. It just....does nothing for me. When it comes to fantasy, I've always been of the mind that including relationships aren't that important unless they're central to character growth, or at least, those characters interactions provide a level of well placed humor to take off the edge of the depressing reality of imminent world destruction. Otherwise, keep it all on the backburner. Wow I ranted for way too long on a dead topic. My apologies everyone.