Shallan's Relationship

[Chrono she/her]

Yeah, shipping a spren and a human is a little weird. Not that it couldn't happen, of course, but I just don't see it happening. Syl and Kaladin seem to just be in a Platonic Life-Partner relationship. Yes, they may care about each other a lot, but that doesn't mean automatically that they're romantically inclined.

Also, there's definitely chemistry going on between Kaladin and Shallan. He compares her to Tien. She describes him in very flattering terms (natural rock formation, rugged soldier build, that passion, etc). He smiles in a depressive moment of his life (the Weeping) when he realizes that he's wearing the same boots Shallan stole from him. It is stated several times in both tWoK and WoR that Tien was the only one who could make him smile during the Weeping.

Then, there's the whole clinging, bickering like an old married couple, Shallan begging Kaladin not to leave her alone, giving him her Shardblade... Need I go on?

[loke13]

Honestly, there's nothing between Kaladin and Shallan. Sure she noticed him, but she isn't wavering or confused; she's made some basic comparisons. She'll probably learn to admire him in battle, like every other person on Roshar; it would make zero sense for everyone to be so into Kaladin but have some woman completely not notice him.

Besides, Kaladin is in some hokey thing with Syl. He keeps examining her as a woman, he considers that her true form; and she shows concern entirely for Kaladin as a person, not Kaladin as a radiant, not even Kaladin as a horribly unstable axe hung above her head. Whenever he drifts, she worries about him; she pays exactly zero attention to the stress on the bond that will kill her. She argues with her father up to the point of claiming him. And now she can take a physical form; who knows where that'll end up.

Seriously, did nobody notice the way these two interact?

 

Luckily for all of us dhazellouise a very detailed post about why that isn't true. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6519-shallans-relationship/?p=108907

Edited March 11, 2014 by loke13

[ssd6 he/him]

I see many obstacles ahead of them and not enough feelings to compensate.

 

Shallan had a very bad reaction towards Adolin's desire to protect her and Kal is all about protecting. He is intense and has a temper. Despite him being a great guy if a few things in him remind her of her father, that will distant her from him.  

A conflict between Syl and Pattern/Shallan will be huge for Kal.

Kal's honor and Shallan's tendency to lie are a potential problem as well.

Shallan being part of Ghostblood also is one.

 

1) You already saw Kaladin and Shallan in the chasm and he had numerous opportunities to be overprotective or underestimate her, he didn't. They formed a team and she metaphorically gave him the "right" to protect her by giving him her sword. Even the scene where they are walking and running through the chasm, Shallan gets annoyed with Kaladin because he won't take her bag from her, but it shows he trusted her to keep up (or he's just rude, but I doubt he wants to get her hurt/killed by falling behind). The irony is she probably wouldn't have accepted it if he asked her to give it to him right away because she'd assume he was underestimating her. He knew she was a radiant after being in the chasm with her and at the end he didn't give it a second thought when he found out it was true because he believed in her, I highly doubt there'd be an overprotective issue between the two. 

- Someone else pointed out earlier in the thread how well their dislike for people being overprotective or caging them. 

 

 

2) Shallan might have a tendency to lie, but she is supposed to be about truth and throughout the book she was forced to face the truth of her past to progress as a radiant. She lies to protect herself, but as noted by her, it holds her back as well. Kaladin has already drawn her into admitting a large portion of her past and he's been able to pull out her real persona in every meeting between the two. He's the perfect character to force her into being truthful and not lying to herself because he can "read" her, it's one the reasons she gets so uncomfortable and points out how analyzing/passionate his gaze is because she's worried he'll see through her (which he does seem too). 

- The other problem she's going to run into is that she's going to have two fake personalities, the one she shows to most people right now as Shallan and the one joining the Ghostbloods. It's probably going to be pretty difficult to find the truth in things when you don't even know who you really are, especially when Ghostbloods are going to muddle the way she thinks with their talk of "truths". This is where Kaladin's ability to draw her real personality out would be a pretty nice benefit more than bane. 

- For Kaladin to find out she's a Ghostblood probably would anger him, but that's apart of creating any interesting relationship in a good story. If everything came neatly together and there was zero issues between the two it'd be pretty boring and not very satisfying. 

 

3) Syl left because he broke his code as a radiant, dating someone she dislikes would probably irritate her, but I doubt she'd kill herself over it. Also, the irony between Syl being prejudice against a group of spren while she has lectured Kaladin for ages on "light eyes" would be humorous. 

 

Like you, I'd much rather prefer Jasnah and Kaladin, but I doubt Sanderson put in as much effort as he has with their interactions just to throw it away in the next book or two. There's a lot of depth here and a large portion of it points towards romance between the two of them, but who knows, it's not like authors have never changed their minds. He'd just have a lot of work ahead of him to redirect all the work he put into the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin situation. 

Edited March 12, 2014 by ssd6

[Aloysius]

Kaladin is going to end up with Jasnah.

 

She lives!

[darkanimereal1]

Shallan doesn't necessarily have to chose between Adolin and Kaladin. The unlikeliness of Shadollin doesn't support Shalladin.

 

 

Yes but at this point in time those two are the most likeliest pairing.

 

Well, since most people addressed the whole "he's a protector and she hates that" argument (which, I agree 100%--he worked with her as a team, not as something fragile to put in a box and never let out), I'll address this issue.

 

 

 

I think that the idea that Shallan doesn't have to wind up with one of the two is a good point. Technically, Shallan doesn't have to wind up with anyone. I really think that Shallan has two very good friends in both of these men, whether she winds up with one of them romantically in the end or not. And I think Shallan's/Kaladin's relationship would still be very powerful as close friends to support each other. 

That being said, I do agree that there is a substantial amount of evidence (and at the very least hints) that Shalladin will be a thing. So no, just because Shallalin probably won't be a thing does not mean that Shalladin will be. But the text supports it rather firmly, at least so far.

[Nero Vance he/him]

I don't think Kaladin's slight obsession with protection will be a problem. He sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Shallan...really, really doesn't have much trouble protecting herself, which is why they worked as a team in the chasms. The whole "murdered her brother" thing is a bit more of an issue. 

[Bobobagins]

So far we know that lightweavers gain power from truths all through wor we have seen a trend with Shallan where she has gain the majority of power through self truths. With this trend I can only summaries that the Shallan/Kaladin plot line will be one used to strengthen Shallan as a radiant..... Just a wild theory mind you.

[loke13]

Kaladin is going to end up with Jasnah.

 

She lives!

 

I would very much enjoy this! But I doubt it.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I don't think Kaladin's slight obsession with protection will be a problem. He sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Shallan...really, really doesn't have much trouble protecting herself, which is why they worked as a team in the chasms. The whole "murdered her brother" thing is a bit more of an issue. 

 

Was it really "murder"? Her brother was kind of killing the majority of Kaladin's squad at the time.

[twilt]

I dont really mind, i dont want lots of dialogue about adolin and kaladin fighting for her affections though i must admit.

[Bobobagins]

I don't think killing on a battlefield is technically murders it's KIA killed in action besides it was either Kaladin or him in that fight which do you think she would rather have in the end. That's not even taking into account what her brother was doing on that battlefeild seems to me he was there to assassinate Amaram a ghostblood vs church kind of situation. In the end her brothers death is really a side effect of him being a ghost blood isn't it? As for Kaladin seems he just got stuck in the middle.

[Carlos Stormblessed he/him]

Was it really "murder"? Her brother was kind of killing the majority of Kaladin's squad at the time.

Ya it definately wasn't murder. Or it was murder as much as any killing out of duty during war is.

 

I really thought going into WOR that their could be a Jasnah/ Kaladin thing, but after "that smile" Shallan made after telling her story to Kaladin. I was sold. I for one enjoy romantic/ sexual tension in books like this. It adds another human element to these fantasy worlds.

 

I love that it has become a thing to talk or argue about this though. Haha....

[Bobobagins]

Ya it definately wasn't murder. Or it was murder as much as any killing out of duty during war is.

 

I really thought going into WOR that their could be a Jasnah/ Kaladin thing, but after "that smile" Shallan made after telling her story to Kaladin. I was sold. I for one enjoy romantic/ sexual tension in books like this. It adds another human element to these fantasy worlds.

 

I love that it has become a thing to talk or argue about this though. Haha....

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 281018368 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 475990320 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

I agree it's good when characters are more human after all not all heros can be celebt monks lol.

Kaladin Stormblessed! bridgeman!, surg binder!, knight radiant! and UNIK!!!!.......

[Carlos Stormblessed he/him]

Hmn, Good point. If Shallan/ Kaladin will be an item by the end of the book three, Brandon will probably used Helaran's death to drive the wedge between them in Book four...hmn...

This is exactly what I was thinking. I think Kaladin will toy with telling her for most of the book, during the brief meets they have as they are at different parts of the world. Then when he finally goes to tell her she will confront him with it having found out on her own and will break up whatever "relationship" they have at that point.

 

Also dhazellouise, that earlier thesis, I mean, post you wrote was amazing! You did your research. Haha!

[Carlos Stormblessed he/him]

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 281018368 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 475990320 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

I agree it's good when characters are more human after all not all heros can be celebt monks lol.

Kaladin Stormblessed! bridgeman!, surg binder!, knight radiant! and UNIK!!!!.......

Haha, that would be the worst. Usually in these epic fantasy series there is so much end of the world stuff happening that there is no time for kids of the main characters or anything. I hope for some Shaladin babies before the last book. Weird, but whatever.

[Aleksiel]

Like you, I'd much rather prefer Jasnah and Kaladin, but I doubt Sanderson put in as much effort as he has with their interactions just to throw it away in the next book or two. There's a lot of depth here and a large portion of it points towards romance between the two of them, but who knows, it's not like authors have never changed their minds. He'd just have a lot of work ahead of him to redirect all the work he put into the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin situation. 

 

I shall sink with my ship!

 

 

 

Syl left because he broke his code as a radiant, dating someone she dislikes would probably irritate her, but I doubt she'd kill herself over it. 

 

[bad jokes]

Syl: A Cryptic? A storming Cryptic? You replace me with a Cryptic, is that it?!

Kal: What? Of course no-

Syl: I trusted you, Kaladin!

Kal: But Syl, I ...

Syl: Farewell, traitor! *dies*

 

Now, that would be some over reaction.

 

When Kal compared Shallan to his mother and little brother I was like 'Wow, slow there Oedipus!'

[/bad jokes]

 

Anyway, I see your point and I agree there is a huge possibility of Shalladin happening; I'd like to read about a strong friendship between them, because I think it would really benefit the series to have some non-romantic non-blood related male/female relationship and Kal and Shallan would be a great choice. This in no way implies that they can't be both close friends and lovers; on the contrary they can be both friends and lovers and that will work really well. I enjoyed their interaction throughout WoR and I certainly hope to see more of them.

 

I can see Kal and Shallan being in a romantic relationship, but I also see reasons for them to not have one; it really depends on how many things go. I'm sure whatever Brandon is planning will be great.

 

Especially if, you know, Jasadin happens *looks innocent*

[Bobobagins]

Jasadin likes whips and chains Du dah Du dah Jasadin likes whips and chainnns ow Du dah dayyyyyy....

Someone said that Shallan might go with Kaladin on his trip to Heartstone but I don't think that will happen simply because there's only two radiant blades atm to operate the oath gates that is until either Dalinar or someone gets access to theirs.

Edited March 12, 2014 by arcmourn

[dhazellouise she/her]

Jasadin likes whips and chains Du dah Du dah Jasadin likes whips and chainnns ow Du dah dayyyyyy....

Someone said that Shallan might go with Kaladin on his trip to Heartstone but I don't think that will happen simply because there's only two radiant blades atm to operate the oath gates that is until either Dalinar or someone gets access to theirs.

Jasnah has a shardblade. I think she will probably arrive in Urithiru by the next book. Or perhaps Renarin has a blade of his own.

 

I think Shallan will probably leave Urithiru coz she has things to do with the Ghostbloods. Jasnah will arrive in Urithiru and will help things out with the affairs there while Shallan will go search in how to open the oathgates...and she'll probably hitch a ride with Kaladin so that he can drop her somewhere in Kholinar? or perhaps somewhere nearby hahaha...but i think that possibility is pretty far...

Edited March 12, 2014 by dhazellouise

[Aleksiel]

Jasnah has a shardblade. I think she will probably arrive in Urithiru by the next book. Or perhaps Renarin has a blade of his own.

 

I think Renarin doesn't yet have his spren as Shardblade, else he'd use him (?) and not the screaming one. It's interesting to see someone can bond more than one spren, though. 

[Bobobagins]

Alot of people seem to be polling Adolin but I still have yet to hear a good enough reason to explore that option however here's some food for though for those polling for Adolin.

This is a post is did for the Adolin vs Sadias scene.

(I can't help but feel that Sadias's scene was a set up.

Source:coppermind

(The Shard's intent, Odium, means two things: the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others.)

It seems to me that Sadias's role in that scene was the provoker.

Adolins role was that of the Hater strong volilent mindless violence fuled by hate....

While I'm happy Sadias is dead this seems a setup for Adolin to be the champion of Odium in Roshar. If you think about it it makes sense in way turning a brother in arms against Kaladin it's happened a few times already if you think about it Sadias was Dalinar's friend before the king's death after though things got twisted seems to be a running theme.)

So anyone got a single reason supported by either wok or wor to help support poor Adolin here?????

[Aleksiel]

Alot of people seem to be polling Adolin but I still have yet to hear a good enough reason to explore that option however here's some food for though for those polling for Adolin.

So anyone got a single reason supported by either wok or wor to help support poor Adolin here?????

 

I fail to see why Shadolin needs to be supported as they are already betrothed. That's why most people talk about what will sabotage their relationship, not why it will continue. After all, a relationship remains until something (internal or external) interferes.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Alot of people seem to be polling Adolin but I still have yet to hear a good enough reason to explore that option however here's some food for though for those polling for Adolin.

This is a post is did for the Adolin vs Sadias scene.

(I can't help but feel that Sadias's scene was a set up.

Source:coppermind

(The Shard's intent, Odium, means two things: the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others.)

It seems to me that Sadias's role in that scene was the provoker.

Adolins role was that of the Hater strong volilent mindless violence fuled by hate....

While I'm happy Sadias is dead this seems a setup for Adolin to be the champion of Odium in Roshar. If you think about it it makes sense in way turning a brother in arms against Kaladin it's happened a few times already if you think about it Sadias was Dalinar's friend before the king's death after though things got twisted seems to be a running theme.)

So anyone got a single reason supported by either wok or wor to help support poor Adolin here?????

 

I don't think Adolin will be Odium champion. Moash has a greater chance of filling that role than Adolin. Really Adolin's actions are no worse than Shallan's save that Shallan took some planning in killing her father first.

 

I really liked Adolin and Shallan in WoR. I agree with Kaladin that they fit. Now in three books I may feel differently. However, for now, I'd like them to end up together in the end and have lots of babies. I want Kaladin to have a few more options. If he ends up with Shallan in the end that is fine, but I would like him to play the field first.

[dhazellouise she/her]

I don't think Adolin will be Odium champion. Moash has a greater chance of filling that role than Adolin. Really Adolin's actions are no worse than Shallan's save that Shallan took some planning in killing her father first.

 

I really liked Adolin and Shallan in WoR. I agree with Kaladin that they fit. Now in three books I may feel differently. However, for now, I'd like them to end up together in the end and have lots of babies. I want Kaladin to have a few more options. If he ends up with Shallan in the end that is fine, but I would like him to play the field first.

 

I don't think Moash will be Odium's champion at all. Moash regretted betraying Kaladin in the end. He realized that he was fooled.

 

Adolin on the other hand...well, he seriously lost control of himself. Moash plotted to eliminate Elhokar. He wanted revenge and yes, he is hateful towards Elhokar but he was patient enough to bid his time.

 

Adolin just snapped and totally blank out. He was dazed after he killed Sadeas. He was blinded by his hatred and anger towards Sadeas that he totally forgot himself.

[dhazellouise she/her]

I think Renarin doesn't yet have his spren as Shardblade, else he'd use him (?) and not the screaming one. It's interesting to see someone can bond more than one spren, though. 

Renarin already has a live spren of his own name Glys. I think Renarin will have to severe his connection with the dead spren before he can use his live spren as a shardblade, severing a connection with the shardblade was easy as shown by Salinor after he lost to Adolin in the duel.

[Aleksiel]

I don't think Moash will be Odium's champion at all. Moash regretted betraying Kaladin in the end. He realized that he was fooled.

 

Adolin on the other hand...well, he seriously lost control of himself. Moash plotted to eliminate Elhokar. He wanted revenge and yes, he is hateful towards Elhokar but he was patient enough to bid his time.

 

Adolin just snapped and totally blank out. He was dazed after he killed Sadeas. He was blinded by his hatred and anger towards Sadeas that he totally forgot himself.

 

This is really off topic on my part, but: Adolin did snap, but he wanted to deal with Sadeas ever since the Tower. Adolin didn't feel the Thrill which is as of now believed to be of Odium, so he wasn't under an external influence when he killed him. There are WoB saying some Orders of the KR would approve of his actions. 

 

Edit: ah, still off topic, I'm sorry

 

 

Renarin already has a live spren of his own name Glys. I think Renarin will have to severe his connection with the dead spren before he can use his live spren as a shardblade

He has a spren, but that doesn't mean he has said enough words to have the level of connection required to form him into a Blade. As for the other statement, it can't be proved yet, but you can speculate on it. The question mark I used was because I don't know Glys's gender.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Aleksiel