How come aluminium feruchemy works

[AviH]

So, I may be missing something here, hopefully someone here can answer.

So basically, if aluminium resists any form of investiture, how come you can store identity in it? I mean, we know metalminds resist steelpushes etc. because they are invested, right? So that would imply that an identity metal mind would be invested, which seems to contradict what we know about aluminium.

So what did I miss, or has this been RAFO'd somewhere? I combed through the Arcanum and I couldn't find anything...

Btw this is my first post (not counting AoN request) though I've been lurking for a while, so hi...

[Shqueeves he/him]

Long story short, aluminum isn't consistent

[AviH]

Hmmm... Ok. Are there WoB about this stuff out there somewhere?

[MonsterMetroid]

7 hours ago, AviH said:

So, I may be missing something here, hopefully someone here can answer.

So basically, if aluminium resists any form of investiture, how come you can store identity in it? I mean, we know metalminds resist steelpushes etc. because they are invested, right? So that would imply that an identity metal mind would be invested, which seems to contradict what we know about aluminium.

So what did I miss, or has this been RAFO'd somewhere? I combed through the Arcanum and I couldn't find anything...

Btw this is my first post (not counting AoN request) though I've been lurking for a while, so hi...

Welcome!! and great first post!!! I will admit I'm not super up to date on mistborn stuff (I'm more of a diehard SA guy) so is an aluminum metalmind for identity?

If it is maybe aluminum resists effects on the physical realm mainly but it can interact with spiritual or cognitive realms? Not sure though just theorizing good post!

[Calderis he/him]

Aluminum is... Weird, and not fully explained. There's a lot of contention here because a number of us also question how this works. 

Aluminum is literally burned away in Allomancy, can be stored in for Feruchemy, and hold a charge in  hemalurgy. Yet it negates all direct uses of investiture on it... 

I want the inconsistency explained. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Steeldancer he/him]

I am of the belief that aluminum does work, we're just misunderstanding how feruchemy and allomancy works. Long story short, I imagine aluminum as resisting kinetic investiture from the outside. But when you fill  a metalmind, you're sticking investiture into it. This is where our 3D understanding fails, because technically, it isn't passing through the investiture block, but.... around it. The feruchemists spirit web attaches to the aluminum, allowing it to do this. No other magic system works by attaching a spirit web to the aluminum spirit web. And I think it is this intermidary- a person's spirit web- that allows investiture to interact with aluminum. Same with allomancy. The persons spirit web attaches to the metal- in this case aluminum- to burn it. Then as it is burned, power from preservation comes into the person granting them the ability to return the investiture to preservation. Thus, it sucks the investiture out of the spirit web of the aluminum and whatever else- from the inside. 

Yes, at a glance, it makes no sense. But I believe there is an explanation, even if Brandon makes it up as he goes along. The spirit web acting as an intermediary being able to overcome this boundary seems to be the most logical explanation of how aluminum works. 

[MonsterMetroid]

2 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

No other magic system works by attaching a spirit web to the aluminum spirit web.

What about awakening wouldn't that attatch a spirit web?

[Steeldancer he/him]

3 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

What about awakening wouldn't that attatch a spirit web?

Nah, the breath isn't alive. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

There's also the subject of specific wording.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, we know that things can be Soulcast into aluminum. But can aluminum itself be Soulcast into something else?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It resists all forms of Investiture trying to change it into things.

Storing Investiture in the Aluminum isn't trying to change it, per se. It's just putting Investiture into it, which contradicts nothing, as it's an Investiture Sink.

Changing it:

• Lashing it Doesn't Work. Awakening it(or Forging it) Doesn't Work. Soulcasting it Doesn't Work. Allomantically Burning it Works.
• (Ooh, here's an interesting question. Since Aluminum is an Investiture Sink, it stands to reason that Investiture shoved at it merely resides inside it. Can an Allomancer just not push on it, or would it absorb your push and not move?)

Affecting something it blocks:

• Can't push on something inside an aluminum box. (Flashlight, Gun, Box). Can't draw on something inside it either(Stormlight, Larkin).
• Soothing someone. (Can't, Can) Brandon is being contradictory without being contradictory, and I'm unhappy.
• Nearby Aluminum might block your own Allomancy too. (Soothing, Seeking, Atium)
• Healing around it is only semi-effective. (Feruchemy, Returned)

Storing Investiture in it.

• Feruchemy Works. Hemalurgy Works.

We know that Aluminum was weird before the Metallic Arts existed, but said Metallic Arts seem to be where the interesting exceptions happen, which is curious.

---

There was gonna be a concrete point to the bullet points, but after finding more of the WoB's, I'm less sure of my reasoning.

[MonsterMetroid]

nice list of WoBs @The One Who Connects here is another interesting one with cadmium

hard to find that one cause the silly british and there aluminium haha  (no offense to anyone british)

[The One Who Connects he/him]

21 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

here is another interesting one with cadmium

Yep, but Aluminum only seems to break a bubble when you are starting it. Otherwise, they act like normal bullets:

Quote

What is it about shooting aluminium through speed bubbles? Why's this question still asked?

The end fight of AoL, Vanishers loaded only aluminum bullets, there's a scene when Wayne's goldminds are near empty and he throws a speed bubble, sees bullet enter; he avoids it but since deflection gets scratched anyway and that's when he empties his goldminds.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

This may be out there, but it seems that burning Aluminum transfers the Investiture Sink nature to the Allomancer, as it allows/causes the removal of outside (but not innate) Investiture.

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

(Ooh, here's an interesting question. Since Aluminum is an Investiture Sink, it stands to reason that Investiture shoved at it merely resides inside it. Can an Allomancer just not push on it, or would it absorb your push and not move?)

I don't think this is the case. No lines go from a lurcher or coinshot to aluminum to even attempt to push/pull, just as aluminum has no atium shadow. 

You can't even make the attempt. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Soothing someone. (Can't, Can) Brandon is being contradictory without being contradictory, and I'm unhappy.

Maybe I can Soothe your worries away*. The first WoB says that aluminum works like a field rather than a direct shield, so you can't bypass the protection of a tinfoil hat (and oh how amusing a coincidence that was) by getting underneath the wearer and then trying to soothe/riot them. The second is about taking control of someone who's been spiked, which involves the same allomantic powers but isn't exactly the same thing and involves exploiting the 'flaw' im hemalurgy that Ruin took advantage of. So I'm not sure there is any contradiction when he says that an aluminum spike wouldn't affect a soother's ability to control a spikee. Different applications of the magic at work.

Unless you were thinking that the presence of aluminum generally should also block emotional allomancy via the 'aluminum field' effect he mentions? Possible thoughts there: The field effect isn't present or as strong in a hemalurgic spike due to how it's Invested, or emotional allomancy needs to 'see' the head of the person you're trying to control and the field from a spike placed somewhere else in the body isn't large enough to reach the head.

 

* I'll just get my coat then. Oh wait, Wayne has borrowed it.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Weltall

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

The second is about taking control of someone who's been spiked

Derp. I focused too much on "An aluminum spike would have no effect on a Soother’s ability" without seeing what quantified it.

[Szmit]

So far the only things that can affest alluminum are things specially DESIGNED to affect alluminum by GODS. I think that it's safe to assume that there are ways to hack alluminum if you have propper tools and understanding, but if you don't consider during designing magic, it's probably gonna resist it.

[StanLemon]

On 1/10/2018 at 6:55 AM, Szmit said:

So far the only things that can affest alluminum are things specially DESIGNED to affect alluminum by GODS. I think that it's safe to assume that there are ways to hack alluminum if you have propper tools and understanding, but if you don't consider during designing magic, it's probably gonna resist it.

 

This is quite a bit after the fact but it's not so much the magic system was designed by gods so much as metal happens to be the Focus of Scadrian magic. I think the relationship Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy have with metal is what gives them the ability to interact with Aluminum at all. 

---

Edited April 6, 2018 by StanLemon

[Eldergod3]

Also all matter on scadrial is infused with preservation and ruin's investiture right? So the aluminum on Scadrial may be different then aluminum on other planets.

[Mr. Superficiality]

1 hour ago, Eldergod3 said:

Also all matter on scadrial is infused with preservation and ruin's investiture right? So the aluminum on Scadrial may be different then aluminum on other planets.

Brandon Sanderson has  said "all matter is invested with Andolosom innate investure" so then aluminum can't behave differently just because it has one or more type of investure in it

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Eldergod3 said:

Also all matter on scadrial is infused with preservation and ruin's investiture right? So the aluminum on Scadrial may be different then aluminum on other planets.

Since it has the exact same anti-Investiture properties on Roshar, Nalthis and Sel, nope. See: Taravangian's comments on 'legendary metal', Nightblood's sheath and Ralkalest  Also, metal on Scadrial is not Invested (except for the godmetals of course) and metal from any planet will do the exact same thing in the Metallic Arts, so there's nothing special about any Scadrian metals except for the ones that come directly from the Shards.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Weltall

[Szmit]

On 6.04.2018 at 8:01 PM, StanLemon said:

This is quite a bit after the fact but it's not so much the magic system was designed by gods so much as metal happens to be the Focus of Scadrian magic. I think the relationship Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy have with metal is what gives them the ability to interact with Aluminum at all. 

---

I don't get what you mean. After all allomancy WAS designed by preservation and hemalurgy by ruin. They can even alter the rules to their needs.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Szmit said:

I don't get what you mean. After all allomancy WAS designed by preservation and hemalurgy by ruin. They can even alter the rules to their needs.

I don't think they consciously designed it, any more than any shard could. The magic systems arose as a result of the shards investing into Scadrial, a natural expression of the Cosmere between the world and their powers. Either way, I agree with the idea that Metallic Arts basically touch the ideals of metal, and have created their own exception into aluminum allowing investiture to permeate it through them.

 

[Wandering Investor]

Magic systems begin as a natural occurrence from the Shard's power and the world. But as shown by Preservation, the shards can actively change the powers, although it is unknown what degree they can do so to.

In world, I think the astral plane Scadrial is located on is what allows Aluminum to be so involved in the Metallic Arts. Narrative wise, I think Brandon came up with an awesome magic system before deciding aluminum does what it does.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

4 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Magic systems begin as a natural occurrence from the Shard's power and the world. But as shown by Preservation, the shards can actively change the powers, although it is unknown what degree they can do so to.

In world, I think the astral plane Scadrial is located on is what allows Aluminum to be so involved in the Metallic Arts. Narrative wise, I think Brandon came up with an awesome magic system before deciding aluminum does what it does.

That would seem like it would make more sense, especially with how weird the fact that aluminum actually works in the Metallic Arts is, but that's not the case.

Edited April 9, 2018 by StrikerEZ

[Weltall]

19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think they consciously designed it, any more than any shard could. The magic systems arose as a result of the shards investing into Scadrial, a natural expression of the Cosmere between the world and their powers.

I wonder if Preservation and Ruin might have slightly more influence over their magic systems than other Shards do, considering that they created Scadrial and all life on it from the ground up. It probably wouldn't make a difference after the world was created but in the process of creation itself, they might have been able to exert some influence on how their magic would eventually arise.