[OB] Dalinar's newest PR problem

[Necessary Eagle]

Quite aside from the question of whether Dalinar's Radiants accepted Szeth too easily, I'm pretty sure the other heads of state wouldn't. These are the people who nearly backed out of the coalition because they found out that Dalinar had a conversation with Odium.

So now Szeth is sworn to Dalinar, and is following him around like a lost puppy. He might not be wearing white anymore, but he's a weird Shin guy with a freaky sword who can walk on walls. People are going to be suspicious. And with Dalinar's new total honesty policy, he's going to have to tell them, "Yeah, he's the Assassin-In-White. But he pinky-swore not to kill people anymore, so it's all right now."

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ookla the Eagle

[StormingTexan]

The Assassin in White was used to disrupt power and kill leaders in kingdoms. The main reason most of the countries were hesitant on Dalinar's coalition was his reputation as the Warloard Blackthorn and no one wanted his troops in their country. Now the coalition is in shambles because of the Dawnchant translation and Dalinar has the Assassin in White as his bodyguard . I think it is highly likely this will send the wrong message to the other leaders. I would think most would see this as he is abandoning diplomacy and going the other route. Mr T is really the only one that can disprove peoples suspicion that The Assassin in White hasn't always worked for Dalinar. It wouldn't be a far stretch for the other leaders to believe Dalinar had his own brother killed to be replaced with a puppet he could pull the strings on then sent the Assassin after other leaders. It is for sure a problem. 

[Aleksiel]

Dalinar should hire whoever was fixing Amaram's reputation to run his PR campaign, too. Or Olivia Pope.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Aleksiel

[StormingTexan]

4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Dalinar should hire whoever was fixing Amaram's reputation to run his PR campaign, too. Or Olivia Pope.

Haha yes he needs Olivia Pope stat! 

[kari-no-sugata]

Given how everyone else just magically accepted him so far, I have a somewhat sinking feeling that this whole issue will just be glossed over.

I'd be slightly curious as to whether it'll become public that Taravangian had been the one behind Szeth's killing spree or not. I'd guess that Dalinar will, as usual, simply gloss over this and Taravangian himself would be unlikely to volunteer the information. I wonder if the plot will gloss over this or not.

[Subvisual Haze]

1) In the first kingdom that he first sent peacekeeping Alethi troops to, said troops tried to conquer the city.

2) The Radiant order accompanying said peacekeeping troops withdrew entirely from the city the day before the battle because of moral uncertainty.  To their credit, they did come back eventually.

Uhhh, would any remotely functional kingdom actually invite Dalinar's troops at this point?  They didn't do so great in their trial run.

[ScavellTane]

I guess that's why we're getting a one year skip next book?

 

Also has anyone created a poll on what Adolin and Shallan's kids gender/name is going to be?

Edited December 5, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Szeth fought on the side of the Thaylens, so I doubt they'll have many complaints about his presence after his display there. 

In Azir, Lift has a lot of Sway with Gawx, and she was the first to accept him, being friendly as far back as Edgedancer, so I think her vouching for him will smooth it over there. With Azir in line, the other countries behind them will toe the line. 

That leave King T, who's in no position to judge. 

Especially since Kaladin can bear witness that Szeth's actions and what he said about the Radiants match up with his new attitude. (I don't know how it all matches up with his revised death, I've not read the revised scene.) 

The fact that he used to try to kill Dalinar, and now serves him, should be weighty evidence as well. 

 

All in all, I don't really think "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is too farfetched a rationale in this situation. When the world is ending, I wouldn't complain if the most accomplished killer in the world stopped killing world leaders and joined the resistance. I'd watch him, but I wouldn't reject the help of a guy who made a giant stone monster disappear in a puff of black smoke. 

I certainly don't do anything to make the guy who killed three quarters of the world leaders mad after that display of power anyway. I mean, what is anyone going to do about it? They couldn't stop Szeth when they wanted to, they're going to waste the resources trying now that he's on their side?

[Foxx]

The feel like the Problem With Szeth will be covered during the one year time skip. He showed up in the midst of a cataclysmic battle and fought alongside the Radiants and Thaylens when they most needed it, so there's some reputation cleansing going on thanks to that move. They're also in the midst of the end of the world, so at that point there's probably a bit of "beggars can't be choosers" mentality going on. I'm sure there will be hesitancy and mistrust, but Szeth will have a year to prove himself before the start of the next book.

I do hope it's addressed realistically and not just glossed over. And if all else fails, Nightblood can just give a rousing speech about DESTROYING EVIL and win everyone over to their side through a combination of charm and sheer horror.

[StormingTexan]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Szeth fought on the side of the Thaylens, so I doubt they'll have many complaints about his presence after his display there. 

In Azir, Lift has a lot of Sway with Gawx, and she was the first to accept him, being friendly as far back as Edgedancer, so I think her vouching for him will smooth it over there. With Azir in line, the other countries behind them will toe the line.

It was Alethi soldiers they fought against that Dalinar sent. We all know it was under Odium's control but I still think it will be difficult for the other leaders to trust Dalinar and his troops again. 

Azir and all the many kingdoms is a mess to say the least. Yeah they all kinda follow suit with Azir but all have their own motivations/concerns. Gawx is also pretty much just a figure head not sure Lift having his ear is enough. 

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Especially since Kaladin can bear witness that Szeth's actions and what he said about the Radiants match up with his new attitude. (I don't know how it all matches up with his revised death, I've not read the revised scene.) 

I doubt Kaladin's word would hold any weight with the other leaders he is Dalinar's man after all and no one even really knows who he is. 

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The fact that he used to try to kill Dalinar, and now serves him, should be weighty evidence as well.

Yep the perfect ruse stage the Assassin in White to attack his master and amazingly Dalinar was the only one to survive an attack. 

[Aleksiel]

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Especially since Kaladin can bear witness that Szeth's actions and what he said about the Radiants match up with his new attitude.

Kaladin has no reputation or authority outside Alethkar. I don't see why non-alethi would see him as something more than Dalinar's extension.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

On 12/5/2017 at 9:43 AM, StormingTexan said:

It was Alethi soldiers they fought against that Dalinar sent. We all know it was under Odium's control but I still think it will be difficult for the other leaders to trust Dalinar and his troops again. 

Which other leaders? Fen was with Navani through most of the battle and witnessed Dalinar's Ascension. I don't see her being a problem in the future, and if the leader whose city was attacked is defending Dalinar, the other leaders won't have much weight to stand on, especially considering Thaylen city still stands after being attacked by Alethi and Singers, and Alethi fought Alethi. The same section of Alethi whose Highprince was killed by Dalinar's son as admitted after the battle, and who's internal politics has been on display all book and beyond, demonstrating the clear divide between Sadeas and greater Alethkar.

 

On 12/5/2017 at 9:43 AM, StormingTexan said:

Yep the perfect ruse stage the Assassin in White to attack his master and amazingly Dalinar was the only one to survive an attack. 

Not quite as amazing as infusing an entire treasury worth of Gemstones. Dalinar and the Radiants have done more than their fair share of miracles to demonstrate why he would have survived.

On 12/5/2017 at 9:50 AM, Aleksiel said:

Kaladin has no reputation or authority outside Alethkar. I don't see why non-alethi would see him as something more than Dalinar's extension.

He has the highest reputation inside Urithuru, which is what matters. The coalition is no longer an external affair, it's an internal Urithuru conflict. Queen Fen also was in a position to witness Kaladin emerging from the cognitive realm to fight in the battle of Thaylen city. He's also a Radiant, and King T has confessed. There's enough threads flying in the wind that the word of a man widely respected inside and outside of the command structure of the KR should be considered relevant. Especially since Wyndle should be able to confirm that Honorspren hate lies. 

 

Tl;Dr all I'm saying is there's a paper trail a mile long. I don't think I need to see them picking up the pieces to it, and I wouldn't find it an interesting read. Dalinar speaks softly, Szeth is a big stick, Odium is threatening the apocolypse, they've got bigger things to worry about. Especially when Szeth is basically the Death Star and Dalinar controls him and  Kaladin 'Skywalker' Stormblessed who could stop him, so what does it even matter if other people are suspicious? Dalinar's actions will prove his trustworthiness eventually, and the fear from the power that represents and fear of the enemy is impetus enough to prevent much in-fighting anyway. He's got the power of the Empire, the Diplomacy of the Rebellion, the skills of the Jedi, and a common enemy all uniting his side together. 

 

Szeth just seems like so small an issue in comparison.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Aleksiel]

Just now, Ookla the Obtuse said:

He has the highest reputation inside Urithuru, which is what matters. The coalition is no longer an external affair, it's an internal Urithuru conflict.

The core of the coalition is Dalinar, it's too new and a blow to his reputation is a nail in the coalition's coffin. Kaladin has high reputation with the Kholins and may be alethi in general. For now Urithiru is still more akin to an alethi colony than an actual international place. 

[ScavellTane]

Especially now that the dissenting voice (Ialai) has left.

Edited December 5, 2017 by ScavellTane

[KidWayne]

How to solve this problem:

1. Regarding Alethi turncoats → Dalinar takes a page from Kaladin's 'Return-to-Hearthstone' playbook and plops the perfect gem containing the Thrill on the table. He explains that the gem contains one of the Unmade and that the imprisoned entity - the Thrill (I forget it's proper name) - was responsible for house Sadeas' treachery. That problem is now contained. He also might choose to explain how bitterness, resentment, hatred and nursing a grudge opens an individual (or even a whole group) up to Odium.
2. Regarding Szeth → Let Szeth do all the talking. Let Szeth explained what happened, why he did what he did, and who was behind the assassinations of the world leaders. Then prove Szeth's sincerity by allowing him to confront the Shin. It probably isn't the best idea to allow him to begin bringing them to justice - at least not at first. But calling them on their chull-scat denial of reality is definitely appropriate.
3. Szeth's credibility → Taravangian has already confessed to some of his involvement with the Assassin in White to Dalinar. Let's not forget that Szeth has odd shadowy afterimages of himself trailing in his wake. Combine that oddity with his deadly skill and reputation and people are going to respect him out of fear if nothing else. He hasn't shown any inclinations toward conquest, just inexplicable murders. So, even though Dalinar doesn't want to operate as a tyrant, having Szeth in his entourage is basically the "big stick" part of "walk softly and carry a big stick." Dalinar doesn't even know what he has in Szeth, since Szeth carries Nightblood who very likely can weaken/harm Shards and other investiture based/dependent forms of consciousness (e.g. the Unmade, cognitive shadows, and probably spren)

Case in point → I think Szeth is a bigger problem for Taravangian than he is for Dalinar. Assuming Dalinar can convince the other heads of state to see aligning themselves to the power of the Knights Radiant (and his power in particular) as a political, tactical, and existential reality; then I don't think he will have too much trouble.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

The core of the coalition is Dalinar, it's too new and a blow to his reputation is a nail in the coalition's coffin. Kaladin has high reputation with the Kholins and may be alethi in general. For now Urithiru is still more akin to an alethi colony than an actual international place. 

Kaladin was made a slave by Amaram after saving his life by killing a Shardbearer, and then openly fought him in Thaylen City. That's become pretty common knowledge. There's so much evidence backing up that Sadeas's camp and Dalinar's camp we're at odds, and even more so that Kaladin is trustworthy. I mean, Alethi fought Alethi in Thaylen city, and Kaladin has been Sadeas and Amaram enemy number one since before that was a thing. How does that not get him any credibility? He's got the ultimate "I told you so," because every single Alethi darkeyes and light can say, "yeah, that flying bridgemen who fought Amaram at Thaylen City publicly condemned Amaram last year and challenged him to a duel and Dalinar imprisoned him for a month after that. You should probably trust him on this one."

So that leaves the other leaders with a choice, go against the guy that ultimately saved Thaylen city and openly employs people who can fly, soulcast, make illusions, heal from sword wounds to the chest, and has the assassin in white as a bodyguard while occupying an unassailable city hidden in the mountains with the world ending around you, or take what's being said by pretty much everyone (Dalinar, Kaladin, Szeth, Lift, King T,) and accept the coalition. 

 

To me, this is a clear cut choice. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

[shawnhargreaves]

Epic battles have a way of proving Dalinar correct.  I suspect the reaction of the other monarchs to the events at the end of OB will be similar to that of the Alethi highprinces after the end of WoR.  They'll still have their own agendas, but also a big fat dose of "ok, you were right about all that, and are also completely badass".

[SilverTiger]

If I was a Rosharan, and some guy who has the Assassin in White as a bodyguard was suggesting people join him against funny-looking parshmen with scary eyes, the I'd join join him. Just because, well, you know...

[Lord Spiral]

It occurs to me that when I went to the Shadows of Self book signing (the most recent one I could get to in UK) Brandon read the flashback chapter where he recruited Telib (I think) the archer assassin. And Sadeas makes a point of saying that Dalinar goes around recruiting enemies (what is he, the hero in Fire Emblem?) By the end of the book Dalinar has the storming Assassin-in-White recruited to his side with no effort and is working on a "voidbringer" radiant. Next book may see him recruit an Unmade. In hindsight that was such an informative chapter as it showed something that was the core of Dalinar's personality even back in the Blackthorn days and was an important foundation for his Unity mission.

...Shallan sealed an S rank relationship with Adolin... I can find a lot of strong similarities to Fire Emblem games here. I guess a few did come out while Oathbringer was being written ;P

[StormingTexan]

Ok I will concede that this will more than likely just get blown over and everyone will accept Dalinar/Szeth mainly because this is seeming to be the norm with where Brandon is going but I don't have to like it  

[Lord Spiral]

If people still think of Dalinar as the bloodthirsty warlord Blackthorn they may not actually think anything of him having the assassin. To them, Blackthorn finally tracked him down and rather than kill him, made use of what is obviously a great and powerful tool. It's the natural thing to do.

[GoddessIMHO]

Remember too that Dalinar said he is dropping the "high king" idea. Another of poor Elhokar's bad ideas. He will take the Radiants. He has given the High Prince position to Adolin.

Granted, none of this actually removes Dalinar from a power position because he IS the power.

[Dryone_2]

Shallan can help: just create an illusion and bind it to some stone, let's call it light-stone, and tell Szeth to carry it with him all the time and feed it some Stormlight regularly. 

That might also help with Seth's embarrassing soul-afterglow. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Honestly, after the great uselessness of the coalition what does it matter. Tell them to play semi-nice and Dalinar will save them when the Voidbringers come and shut up. They have granted zero help when they were needed, and 7 KR saved the day, so why dance for the till-now greatly useless coalition?

Then again I've said before I'd be a horrible Bondsmith, got no aptitude for that order .

[+Wax]

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Part 5 is where Brandon’s central idea shows his brilliance.  But there were big stumbles in my view with the Szeth storyline with boulder sized plot holes due to his part being under-cooked.

·        Szeth comes and starts helping and Dalinar/Jasnah are quick to accept his help.

·        Kaladin harangued Shallan just because she took her boots.  Yet, no consequence for Szeth turning up.

·        No one questioning Kaladin who had claimed that Szeth was dead.

·        Szeth becoming Dalinar’s bodyguard despite Dalinar having enough.

·        No other kingdoms wanted to put a bounty on Szeth’s head?  Really?

·        Szeth tells Nale that he’s going after the Shin.  Yet, now, he’s standing around being Dalinar’s bodyguard – so that Dalinar can go to a bloody wedding reception.

·        I’d been surprised if Dalinar had let Szeth stay if Szeth had mentioned the other Honorblades

·        Szeth hasn’t told Dalinar about Taravangian

·        Dalinar is happy to have Szeth – when they have fought a bloody war for 6 years just coz Szeth killed Dalinar’s brother, and effectively started the whole desolation (Dalinar wouldn’t have known about the rest of the things going on).

That whole Szeth scenario was bizarre...

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I posted the above in the book reactions thread... Also going through re-reads right now and Azir's communication with Dalinar notes kinship as both have had royal people killed by Assassin in White.  And here we have Szeth running around as guard to Dalinar...

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62339-ob-full-book-reactions-full-spoilers-thread/?page=18#comment-638874