[OB] Fourth Windrunner Ideal

[Siaun Sanche]

22 hours ago, TheBrian said:

I think a good analogy for this would be child soldiers.  They don't belong in war.  They shouldn't have to die.  But if they are pointing a gun at your or your children, then you are going to have to do something necessary but distasteful.

See, I think that's more of a grimdark idea than the Stormlight Archive is really built for. To my mind, the lesson that Kaladin needs to learn is that the Singers also need to be protected.

[Highline]

Maybe it could be “I will let go of those I have lost, to save those that are still here” his fear of losing people can hinder him from protecting those who are still with him

[Leolyth]

"I will oppose the law, if the law does not protect."

[Harbour]

My theory is simple - Windrunner's Ideals are related to Herald's Two Attributes. Based on that theory we can predict the theme of Ideals left unrevealed.

Jezrien's attributes: Protecting and Leading.

Now lets check out two Windrunner's Ideals:

Quote

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.”

Quote

I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.

Quote

I will protect those I hate. Even if the one I hate most is myself.”

 

As you can see Second and Third Ideals are in fact related to Herald First Attribute, Protecting.

That leads us to the idea that the Fourth Ideal will have to do with Leading, and Fifth one with Leading or Leading/Protecting.

 

 

I think Kaladin wanted to say something like "I Will Lead Those Who Are Able To Be Led", echoing with the scene of Parshendi and Humans killing each other while Kaladin froze in shock. That means Kaladin will accept the fact that he can't force everyone to do to what he wants just because he wants it. He can't accept it yet while he know he should. Thats why he knew the words but couldnt spoke them.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Harbour

[RappaR]

Kaladin doesn't seem to have problem with killing to protect, so I think it is something regarding himself. Like - I will not be afraid to live for myself. It is consisent with him supressing his feeling for Shallan. Since he is by WoB in clinical depression, accepting his own worthiness is something, that sick people have problem to.

[aurik]

I personally like the version, "I will accept that some must die so that others may live"

[bo.montier]

Just to add my guess, I think it will be something along the lines of "I will protect those I can, and let go of those I cannot"

I can't imagine anything else being so hard for Kaladin to say.

[Sprendiferous]

After re-reading his attempt to say the Fourth Ideal I really believe that it has to do with either:

1. Accepting that he cannot save everyone.

2. Forgiving himself for those he cannot protect.

In the end the biggest obstacle for him speaking the words was his thought of Tien. Tien is the embodiment of what Kaladin believes to be his fatal flaw: Not being able to save everyone. This has been Kaladin's foremost struggle, forgiving himself for his failures and as his ex said: Live for the Living.

[Willow]

14 hours ago, Sprendiferous said:

After re-reading his attempt to say the Fourth Ideal I really believe that it has to do with either:

1. Accepting that he cannot save everyone.

2. Forgiving himself for those he cannot protect.

In the end the biggest obstacle for him speaking the words was his thought of Tien. Tien is the embodiment of what Kaladin believes to be his fatal flaw: Not being able to save everyone. This has been Kaladin's foremost struggle, forgiving himself for his failures and as his ex said: Live for the Living.

I am also starting to think it has something to do with forgiving himself, or at least accepting that when he leads people, and they die in the course of duty, that doesn't mean he is personally responsible for failing them. Syl talks about this in WoR, when she said Beld 'died protecting [Dalinar and his family]', and that it was the choice of Bridge Four to follow him [into danger], and Kaladin couldn't take that away from them.

 

[Bacon]

Maybe "I will abandon those who cannot be protected"

Edit: I totally forgot I already replied to this a week ago, with basically the same response. Sorry for the accidental spam.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Bacon

[Jimmy]

Maybe this has been covered somewhere else, I'm not sure, but to me the oaths look like the way that people deal with their "brokenness." 

Kaladin is the character I can relate to most in this, even to the point of having a Syl on the shoulder. "Why aren't you doing X when it could make you happy?" You just can't. It doesn't work. You can try to do the things that everyone else enjoys and if you try really hard it might take your mind off it for a while, but when its over you're back to remembering all the people who died because you screwed up. You shut down to the outside world and focus only on the people you care about to the exclusion of everything else. Ask any veteran what they'd do to protect their family and the answer will be a variation on "anything and everything." 

Us and them thinking, who is Us? Whoever you believe it is, really. 

Back to the point, because I do wander a bit when it gets dark, the Ideals seem to be a way of moving forward from this. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." Good, thats a way to cope. "I will protect even those I hate," is another step in the right direction. Recognising that just because you don't like someone doesn't make them your enemy and that you still have a duty to some of them. The fourth Ideal should be about letting go again. Understanding that if someone like you tried to save the world that you'd end up killing the rest of it. Because you can and you will feel driven to do it. 

"I will let others live their own journey and understand that I cannot protect everybody all the time." 

"I am the guardian in the storm and the spear against the void." Goes well for a fifth I reckon. 

[Landyboy20]

I think it will be something along the lines of being a leader and letting other sacrifice themselves.

Rock I think talked to him about that while they were training and Kaladin said that stormlight will let him protect all of the bridge men,

So "I will let my friends sacrifice themselves in order to protect."

[summers]

On 11/15/2017 at 7:12 PM, Marethyu316 said:

I think that the epigraph for chapter 86 gives a clue:

It sounded like something that Kaladin would struggle with as well, and he then went on to not being able to say it. That made me wonder if it isn't something like, "I will let people protect themselves, if they are able" or something like that. It seems like Kaladin has a hang up about needing to protect everyone, including members of Bridge Four who were in the midst of learning to protect themselves. 

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that is right now that I finished the book, but it's what I thought when I read that epigraph.

I think you got it. It connects with all the clues in some way.but is it something that would make Kaladin break down crying.

Also Kal did not leave with Tarah because he was protecting those who were not able. This could be waved away by the fact that Tarah is not some wisdom machine who knew Kal would be a radiant.

[echaozh]

I think it will along the line of "I will protect, even though there will be blood shed.", with room for explanation as to whose blood is shed, the protected or the ones to be protected against.

As to the fifth ideal, well, I guess the ultimate form of a Windrunner may be Cuicesh the Protector. He sucks all his squires in and changes faces all the time.

[onircsword]

I have the sneaking suspicion that we might have already heard this oath.

When Kaladin and Elhokar reach the queen in Kholinar, they end up in a standoff. They don't know how much time they have before the Parshendi get there, Elhokar is holding a terrified little Gav, and Aesudan is obviously possessed by Yelig-nar. Still Elhokar is trying to talk sense into his wife. And then this happens

Quote

“Out,” Kaladin said.
“But . . .” The king looked toward his wife.
“Elhokar,” Kaladin said, gripping the king’s shoulder.
“Be a hero to the one you can save."

OB p.812

So I think that last sentence is the basic concept of the 4th Windrunner Ideal. It's not necessarily about prioritizing certain people over others, it's about being aware of your own limits, doing the best you can and letting go of the people you can't help, without regret. And Kal understands this to a certain level, by the end of the book he clearly knows it, but can't swear by it yet. He can tell Elhokar to do it, he can be more objective in that situation since he has no attachment to the queen, but he can't do it himself. He freezes in the stairwell against the Parshendi and Moash, and same at the end when he doesn't speak the oath, when he can't let go of Dalinar. Can't let go of that feeling of being responsible for everyone.

So yeah, in my opinion that's the next oath for Kal

[Wolven]

The only thing that I can think of is that he has to learn to be able to make sacrifices.  Something like, "I will sacrifice the one to protect the many".  I can see why Kaladin of all people would have a lot of trouble with that one.  

I do believe that whatever it is, that he knows what it is and really is terrified by it.

[Aldrnari]

We keep assuming that the 4th ideal is something that involves Kal overcoming his regrets and accepting his limits, but what if it involves the one thing that that he simply doesn't believe he can live up to given his life experience. It could be some variation that starts with,

"I will not fail to..."

[Cenanin]

On 11/13/2017 at 9:05 PM, IntentAwesome said:

I’m apologizing in advance for this very long and very disorganized post. So…sorry!

 

So, I really, really wanted the answer to this one and now I will spend the next three years trying to figure it out. 

 

So here we go.

 

Much of Kaladin’s POVs in part 4, I feel, were teasing us about this ideal. I’ve compiled what I think is relevant information regarding the fourth ideal. 

 

Kaladin’s struggle throughout the whole book has been choosing a side when he feels like he should be protecting everyone, which reached its head when he froze in battle, unable to choose a side.

 

His Flashbacks

Speaking with Tukks about realizing that he could kill:

His conversation with Tarah about needing to live for the living, not the dead:

 

Holding Nalma’s hand as the slaves die around him:

 

Summoning Windspren

 

At the beginning, helping others get to shelter during the storm and defying the stormfather:

 

On Honor’s Path, when he is thinking specifically about the oaths and what the fourth one will be:

 

He also summons a single windspren when they approach the Thaylenah gate, as he is thinking about how he must get to the oath gate and save Dalinar:

And interestingly, what Kaladin is thinking about as he tries to swear the oath is all the people he lost. So what does that mean? What do the dead have to do with swearing an ideal? 

Windrunner Gemstone

 

And don’t forget the wind runner’s gemstone, who says he isn’t sure he can’t swear the fourth ideal. He asks something along the lines of shouldn’t I want to help people?

 

Guesses

 

I’ve been trying to think what makes sense with all this information, but would also be so difficult that Kaladin couldn’t do it. 

 

1. I originally thought it could be something about forgetting the past and living for the living, as Tarah suggests, but I couldn’t think of any useful oaths that would involve this.
2. It could be, like the sky breaker third ideal, that he just has to choose a side and it’s up to him what he chooses. And Kaladin was unable to choose humans. While this really speaks to the struggle that Kaladin was having, it doesn’t really make sense that he would be thinking about all the people he lost, as this doesn’t really affect them or how Kaladin thinks of them. 
3. It could be something along the lines of “I will protect myself first so I can live to continue the fight.” This is something I feel Kaladin would really struggle with and does make sense as an oath. But it doesn’t really fit with his struggle, and it doesn’t really fit with thinking of the people he has lost. It does make sense with the Windrunner Gemstone.
4. The one that I currently think is most likely. There’s a lot of conversations about leadership in this book and that’s been a popular theory before. All of the people he lost were people who died at the hands of an unjust leadership system. I think the oath may be something along the lines of not risking himself for individuals, but to think of the bigger picture. Doing the most good for the greatest amount of people, which may require sacrificing some individuals. Kaladin does tend to protect the small group of people he cares for rather than thinking on a bigger scale. I’m not sure how this really resolves the human/parshmen dilemma. And Kaladin seemed to be taking the whole lighteyes thing pretty well. But this does make sense as far as the Windrunner Gemstone goes.

There's a huge hint in the talk he has with Syl after leaving the parshmen and getting chased by Fused in Part 1 that people aren't thinking about. 
I think it has to do with him choosing who to protect and what is right. Sort of like Szeth choosing to fight for humanity.

[stormlore]

"I will not save people from themselves, even though I can."

Like a Prime Directive like motto.

[Hulaine]

On 16/11/2017 at 8:01 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

1. Windspren are nearly confirmed as been related to Plate

I would say it's definitely confirmed. On a previous topic I've had it pointed out to me that Creationspren form Shallan's shardplate in the final battle of OB; knowing Spren = plate, it makes absolute sense that Windspren form Kaladins (and Creationspren for Bondsmiths etc.).

With the 4th ideal, I'm leaning towards the suggestion that it's about giving up those that are gone/he can't save - it's the only reason he'd not be able to say the words to save those who are still right by him and alive, because saving them would require him to give up on Tien and the others he's lost (in his mind). Also this: 

On 16/11/2017 at 11:17 PM, Starla said:

An oath related to letting go of the lost would help keep them from eventually being consumed by grief.

The leadership idea, to me, sounds more like the 5th ideal. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Hulaine
Added the last line

[WhiteLeeopard]

4 minutes ago, Hulaine said:

I would say it's definitely confirmed

Nothing is ever confirmed in the shard until it happens in-book . But I agree we are as sure as can be without it happening.

[stormlore]

Kaladin also mentions his slave brands during the fight with Amaram.  I think the 4th ideal might have something to do with that as well.  Overcoming his perception of himself. Similar to Tefts firemoss

[Farnsworth]

Maybe "I will protect myself before I protect all others"? I like that idea. It would certainly hurt Kaladin to say it.

[KidWayne]

I will not fail to protect those I can, even at the expense of those I cannot.

I think that "those I can" are the ones who are willing and able to accept his protection. No matter what else Kal did at the palace in Kholinar, he wasn't going to be able to save the parshmen he met in part 1. He didn't want to kill them, but he probably should have. Not doing so got everyone killed.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[Cenanin]

Has to be about choosing a side. He thinks Dalinars fall is immediate and inevitable and if he picks a side he's gonna have to kill Dalinar. 

"I will lead for Dalinar Kholin"

Is my guess.