Hulaine

I don't really see them as the same - one is your classic, Vin/Elend sacrifice, where Vin kinda picked up the power by mistake into prophesied bait and switch with a new person picking up both shards; one and done (ignoring potential Discord theories) Whereas this is Dalinar picking it up intentionally, then letting his side lose to play a bigger game - not to mention that Odium only has most of honour, not all. Basically, in Mistborn the end result was to win, here the end was the best scenario for the cosmere but clearly a short term loss. Also the end result of the merge is different - Ruin/Pres are in full contrast with each other so Sazed is limited, Honour/Odium CAN agree on at least some goals so Taravangian can act using both together. Also also, actual shard/power of honour with sentience riding around with the vessel and intending to learn stuff at Dalinars urging, definitely novel! -------- Overall, l'm thinking 7/10 for now but need to stew on it! The blue haired girl in Kalaks PoV was Syl, right? So she's still with Kal and he's still a 5th ideal Radiant Herald (on a stormlight-less planet)?

I saw this idea on a different thread related to TOdium 'harming' Wit by taking some of his breaths, where keeping the agreement in letter and spirit (paraphrasing but that's a key part of this) might depend on the vessel. What if the 'loophole' is simply that TOdium doesn't view the restrictions in the same way Rayse did, which opens up a few possibilities. For example, for all the mentions of "you" and "I" in the final contract which still bind new Odium, TOdium could interpret them to only apply them to himself (i.e. Fused can free for all/continue fighting); there's president for that, because his stance in most of his conversations with Dalinar focus on the ruler bearing the burden, etc.. As an aside, "all their occupants" include Fused and Singers at the moment, so there might be something in that? Either way, win or loss, TOdium sounds like he expects to be able to continue doing... something, somehow (at least if he wins and gets Dalinar): Also in a similar vein to TOdium destroying the platform before it could happen, I assume he can also aim to kill all the likely candidates before they're chosen as the champion so it's easier to win by fighting someone way less skilled, though it feels very unlikely.

But... how - literally everything we know about Breaths makes that impossible. Heck, almost all investiture the Cosmere is tapped to an individual, so even if (Era 2 Mistborn Spoiler) was involved in any way, it's super unlikely that Hoid both wouldn't know about it and wouldn't protect from it, especially for important memories. As a related aside, it seems really out of character for Hoid either way - he went out of the tower knowing he could be seen by Odium as well, so knowing he was going to meet a God and presumably knowing the limits of what they're able to do pretty well (better than a newly raised God, even if he still thinks it's Rayse), why the heck would he have anything external on him that can be taken/viewed/can perhaps be destroyed? With that in mind, I read that line as "I can see that you have this thing that stores memories, so I'ma take it from you so you lose them", even if that makes less sense than him actually seeing Hoids memories, just cus' it would be damn stupid of a character not known to be stupid and require a significant change to how we understand Breath/Investiture.

Ohh that's a tad scary - I like it! Sort of in the same way Ishar is a Bondsmith unbound, but seems to be quite happy being mad and just bonding people to stone etc., whereas Mr T would use his mad levels of clever to actually influence the Cosmere with Dalinar's Bondsmith abilities (as you say, as an agent of Odium but bound to the Stormfather). Only reason I don't think that'll be the case is cus' Dalinar is planning on being the champion, which means he needs to die, and death = bye bye Stormfather bond! Could be something to do with Ishar? Using his Bondsmithing to free him once he's dealt with Dalinar?

Really hope that's the case - don't like the idea of Wit doing his thing missing a load of key information; definitely a recipe for disaster! Good points as well Seloun - I'd forgotten he'd sent his Spren away. I guess we don't know how many/which memories were taken, if it wasn't just the recent conversation, because if he's taken short term he's only taken very short term (i.e. doing the trick with the coin, sending Design away, and the conversation), because he remembers other stuff/his dirty tricks monologue. My question there though, is how? Nobody can take Breaths without permission (we've seen that in Warbreaker), so it had to have been Odium taking a physical thing that had the Breaths stored in, but how and why (and I guess when?) would Wit transfer the last minute of his life into an object and not the minutes before? Unless it's some weird mechanism where every memory goes into his scarf or whatever he's got his Breaths in immediately, is sorted somehow, then moved into a longer term storage or back into his brain depending on what it contains? Really weird the more I think about it - I trust that it's not a plot hole cus'... Brandon..., but I really wish we knew more so I could feel confident Wit's still going to be OP and all knowing in future books! Either way, it seems fairly clear that Odium can't see those memories, just remove them from Wit, whatever they are, right? One other thing I'd thought of - Wit/Hoid, I'm pretty sure, isn't visible in the Diagram ("So interesting... Odium said. How did I never see you there, in all my Planning?"), so that might mean he's also blocked somehow from future sight for Odium as well? Odium/Rayse knew Wit was meddling to knew to look out for him, but that doesn't mean he wasn't another Renarin.

As in, the Spren chilling outside of Lasting Integrity? I kinda lost track (and the interactive map doesn't have Lasting Integrity in it) of whether this was in the same place as Dalinar and co. were attacking in the real world, but if it is that'd make a lot of sense! One thing that wasn't mentioned - Kal pretty much broke after Teft, and his eyes were glowing yellowy red, "almost like..." (clearly meant to be "like the Fused"). I'm pretty sure that's nothing, just that he was almost consumed and chose the 4th ideal instead, but do we think that could mean anything else at all? Ohh also Riah the Honorspren - I recognize that name and I've no idea why (though we know she's probably dead to the Recreance) PS bloody Moash, dude... Kal should have popped in and killed him quickly, then gone to do his

So much stuff...! For now I'll settle on a question or two (just read it all in one sitting so I mightve missed it) What happened to Radiant (Shallan only mentions to Mraize she absorbed her and veil was the only one (i think) who came out of her as she confronted Formless, which was the last time I remember seeing her)? What happened to Zahel after his spar with Kal? Someone in an earlier comment mentioned a Thaikadar reveal, when/where? All I caught was that he wasn't native to Roshar, not who he was at all?

Erm, so that was a rollercoaster.. I've kinda forgotten everything else Hoid had done in the book just because of how monumental the ending was for him and Mr Ts Odium. Do we think Hoid keeps all his new memories in his "breaths" (and how do you even store memories in breaths, unless I misread and it was copperminds) or just some of them (I.e. Will he remember Jasnah etc., even?) - early book 5 speculation is that they realise wit forgets them so go hunting for his missing breaths? He also seems to have forgotten his Spren/his spren bond? When did he eat lerisium, and could he have lost allomancy etc? Is cultivation working with Odium now, since Mr T being the new vessel was kinda he plan? Lastly, and most importantly, can Mr T read them memories, or just keep them from Wit? Assume no! Anyway, they were my initial thoughts on Hoid questions I'd love to discuss!

I've just finished the 20 hour readathon, and am still reeling - even if we can't find the loophole, Hoid knew there was one (with the whole "unless"), and new Odium now has his memories so also knows... plus the full knowledge of Dalinar etc that Wit had picked up, so maybe something in there can be used against him? I don't think the obvious loopholes (no year etc.) are likely, and honestly until reading some of your suggestions it didn't read it as any loopholes were the problem, it was more that the champion appointed would lose (and the unless meant X could beat Dalinar).

This might seem like a really silly question, but you've read the 3 as I did - honestly, I didn't even know there was a book called Mitosis between Steelheart and Firefight, it just flowed really nicely from SH to FF - were you meant to read Mitosis/is it worth it, or is it a Reckoners 1.5? Anyway, that's an aside - it was an enjoyable book, tickling the old emotions here and there; its great to see how Sanderson can nail multiple types of fantasy!

I'm not sure what to make of this post; you're either joking, confused, or I've missed what you're trying to say. Wheel of Time =/= Cosmere related. If you're talking about using the Aes Sedai severing being healed as an example for something that might be healable in the Cosmere books, I have no idea what that something is, so I've got nothing really to add! Maybe? Probably? Yes (or no).

Disclaimer here, I do think Shardplate is formed of lesser Spren, somehow. One thing that I think is worth considering in this thread is the Shardplate we think we've seen on Shallan; if I had to choose, it more supports the theory that Spren might just be attracted to Radiants using Stormlight, rather than them actually becoming the plate. However it really doesn't give much context, so I doubt it really supports either theory. I've copied the 3 relevant quotes below. Still, worth considering! Note the others who see her after she's created an army mention how many Creationspren she has surrounding her, but they're not mentioned in Adolins or her PoV (first and second quote), so it's not clear as to whether they swarm her after Radiant/her is seen in Shardplate, or before.

At least I'm not the only one! It's a tough one because they're all so well crafted - I think WoK would take the top spot for me just because I remember reading the characters PoVs, thinking "when will Dalinar and Kaladin finally meet?" while feeling like there were so many missed opportunities for them to, then when it finally happened thinking "oh wow, that was better than I could have ever imagined!". OB would be a close second though. If it counts though, the whole of Memory of Light was the most impressive avalanche ever, of all time, but that was the last 10% of a series rather than just one book, and it was a joint effort with him and Robert Jordan, so...!

I would say it's definitely confirmed. On a previous topic I've had it pointed out to me that Creationspren form Shallan's shardplate in the final battle of OB; knowing Spren = plate, it makes absolute sense that Windspren form Kaladins (and Creationspren for Bondsmiths etc.). With the 4th ideal, I'm leaning towards the suggestion that it's about giving up those that are gone/he can't save - it's the only reason he'd not be able to say the words to save those who are still right by him and alive, because saving them would require him to give up on Tien and the others he's lost (in his mind). Also this: The leadership idea, to me, sounds more like the 5th ideal.

So for me, I think Syladin is happening and will continue to develop, as an asexual relationship. I don't envision their relationship in the 'normal' sense (i.e. Dalinar/Navani, Shallan/Adolin, etc.), just that Syl will be the closest thing Kaladin has to a relationship, and because of their relationship Kaladin won't need or want anyone to fill what is essentially the same role for him, just with the addition of sex. I'm open to Kaladin and anyone else though, and have absolute faith in Brandon Sanderson doing it well if he does, but for now, which is only 3 of 10 books in (so not much to go off!), there's nobody that would fit with him in the relationship sense.

See I read the below as confirmation of Syladin... just me?

The truths were 'I am afraid' 'I killed my father' and 'I killed my mother'. There are also some hints that Shallan actually did summon Shardplate during the last battle and didn't realize/intend it. And then after the battle Now that I can get behind - I'd not realised the "I'm afraid" counted as a truth, but it does make sense. I've re-read the end section a couple of times so far, but until you'd put the two lines together it just didn't click!

I'm not sure about Shallan having spoken the 4th ideal - given that it's an important truth about her character, I'd be really surprised if it was sworn off-"screen". I'm also fairly sure Shadeplate must be tied to the 4th ideal, and Shallan hasn't got her Shardplate yet. We know from Nale that most Skybreakers (at the very least, other orders may be similar) didn't swear the 5th ideal, and there's a fairly even number of blade and plate/plate was kind of important for fighting the Voidbringers. I'm working off of conjecture here, so if you've got the WoB to disprove the above I'd be interested to read it - could be that plate has nothing to do with the immortal words, but that's a whole other conversation!

The screaming in his head, and (at least as I read it) the "epilepsy"/fits he had were down to touching his none-Glys Shardblade, weren't they? Either way, with 3+ books left there's so much that Sanderson can do with Renarin which will give us a better idea of what sort of focus and timeframe his backstory would have. Alongside Szeth, and becoming "Truthless", Taln's will be incredible insight into more of the Cosmere/formation of the oathpact etc., really can't wait!

I really like the idea of Eshonai surviving by either being found by the listeners who refused Stormform, or of her changing forms during the highstorm and somehow surviving - I wouldn't mind if this was another Voidbringer form, as long as she ends up coming back to herself/the 'right' side sometime soon! Looking through the forms we know about, I don't think any would fit the bill, but maybe that's part of the fun of us discovering the Falling-From-A-Chasm-Surviving-Underwater-In-Powerful-Winds-And-Lightning form... But I agree, no body no death. Heck, body no death, thanks to the final scenes of WoR!

Can Spren not find someone else to bond with if they're early stages of bonding with a human when they die (i.e. not enough ideals said)? While the gender thing does probably prove that Ym's Spren isn't Lift's, it does raise the question of whether a Spren can only have one attempt at bonding a human before they're re-stupefied in the Physical realm, if that human dies (rather than break their bond) - do we have a WoB on this?

Reading down the forum, especially with the WoB, I get that I've overlooked this "Atium keeps inquisitors alive" thing, but I don't really get why? Surely TLR would have created them with a gold misting/health storing feurochemist, to get the same affect as Miles Hundredlives? How does burning (or whatever they do with) Atium keep an inquisitor alive?

Hi guys, First things first, this is my first post, but after browsing these forums for god knows how long I finally caught something in the books that prompted me to make that first leap and start a new topic of discussion. I can only imagine, with my luck, it has been discussed before, but I did try and check so I hope that is not the case. So there was a quote in Bands of Mourning where VenDell is talking to Marasi and the group about the Bands of Mourning (13% through on the Kindle version of the 3rd Wax & Wayne book), where he says: While we know Harmony knows Kelsier is at least alive in the cognitive realm, because of their interactions at the end of Secret History, this little line makes it fairly clear that the Kandra must also know about Kelsier's condition, because he only touched the power of Ascension after his "death". It went completely over my head first reading, so I can't blame Marasie and Wax for not picking up on it and questioning how/when Kelsier touched the power - of course, Harmony could have included Kelsiers' role post-death in the Words of Founding, but I find it unlikely given Waxs' shocked response at the end of BoM. This got me thinking, if the Kandra and Harmony both know of Kelsier and his exploits, how closely are they working together? A lot of this is going to be a RAFO situation, but I thought it might be fun to speculate on the relationship between Sazed and Kelsier. I would like to say that its fairly obvious at this point that Kel and Sazed are working together to try and work out what's going on in the areas under Trell's watch, hopefully leading into some bad-chull era crossover crew with Wax, Wayne, Spook, Marsh (who by the way must be an even stronger version of the Lord Ruler at this point), Kelsier, etc., but I might be jumping the gun a bit (see below). If it ends up that they are working closely together (I mean why else would Kelsier be running around a desert 300 years after dying..?), I'm really curious about is whether Kelsier is fully physical again and if so, has Harmony given him back his Mistborn capabilities? Who's 'in charge' as well? I mean, Kelsier was the crew leader, but now Harmony is literally god; either way, Brandon Sanderson will have a lot of fun with that... The real curve ball, though, is a quote from Shadows of Self: That could make it sound like he's not working or talking with Kelsier at all since Kelsier's off on his hunt for a physical body, which I think is unlikely, or him and Kelsier are out of touch (i.e. "since Kelsier left to do 'X'...) for a while for whatever reason. If he's left a while ago to do something that doesn't involve/allow keeping in touch with Harmony (i.e. a spy type thing), what could Kelsier be up to? Infiltrating Trell society? Trying to spark another revolution or something? Tiny bit jumbled and disorganised, but I got the main two quotes and a few of my thoughts down, just about! Thoughts? PS: When writing a post, I obviously don't want spoilers in the title, but how do I make it so that anyone who clicks on it knows that the books contain spoilers from 'X' book, without writing it in the title? Should I just simply be adding a tag for (in this case) Mistborn Era 2 spoilers?