[OB] Fourth Windrunner Ideal

[IntentAwesome]

I’m apologizing in advance for this very long and very disorganized post. So…sorry!

 

So, I really, really wanted the answer to this one and now I will spend the next three years trying to figure it out. 

 

So here we go.

 

Much of Kaladin’s POVs in part 4, I feel, were teasing us about this ideal. I’ve compiled what I think is relevant information regarding the fourth ideal. 

 

Kaladin’s struggle throughout the whole book has been choosing a side when he feels like he should be protecting everyone, which reached its head when he froze in battle, unable to choose a side.

 

His Flashbacks

Speaking with Tukks about realizing that he could kill:

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"I wasn't afraid of getting hurt." Kaladin took a deep breath. "I was afraid of making someone hurt."

His conversation with Tarah about needing to live for the living, not the dead:

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"Oh, Kal," she shiwpered, then squeezed his arm. "Maybe someday you'll learn how to be there for the living, not just for the dead."

 

Holding Nalma’s hand as the slaves die around him:

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"He took her hand and held it instead, weeping as she died...Regardless of the reason, Kaladin has lived. He always did."

 

Summoning Windspren

 

At the beginning, helping others get to shelter during the storm and defying the stormfather:

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"A hundred windspren spun in as ines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons. They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin's sides and parting the winds around him.

 

On Honor’s Path, when he is thinking specifically about the oaths and what the fourth one will be:

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"The Fourth Ideal was unknown to him, but the closer he drew to it, the more frightened he became. What would it demand of him?

Something crystallized in the air beside him, a line of light like a pinprick in the air that trailed a long, soft luminescence."

 

 

He also summons a single windspren when they approach the Thaylenah gate, as he is thinking about how he must get to the oath gate and save Dalinar:

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"He had to get to the Oathgate. He would not fail like he had in Kholinar. A single glowing windspren burst alight next to him, as he reached the top of the hill."

And interestingly, what Kaladin is thinking about as he tries to swear the oath is all the people he lost. So what does that mean? What do the dead have to do with swearing an ideal? 

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"He had a single slim hope. Each Ideal he'd spoken had resulted in an outpouring of power and strength. He licked his lips and tried whispering it. 'I...I will...'

He thought of friends lost. Malop. Jaks. Beld and Pedin.

Say it, storm you!

'I...'

Rod and Mart. Bridgemen he'd failed. And before them, slaves he'd tried to save. Goshel. Nalma, caught in a trap like a beast. 

A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light."

 

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"He thought of his men from Amaram's army. Dallet and his squad, slain either by Shallan's brother or by Amaram. Such good friends who had fallen. And then, of course, he thought of Tien."

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"Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar.

Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them?"

 

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"'I can't lose him, but...oh, Alimighty...I can't save him.'"

Windrunner Gemstone

 

And don’t forget the wind runner’s gemstone, who says he isn’t sure he can’t swear the fourth ideal. He asks something along the lines of shouldn’t I want to help people?

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"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?

 

Guesses

 

I’ve been trying to think what makes sense with all this information, but would also be so difficult that Kaladin couldn’t do it. 

 

1. I originally thought it could be something about forgetting the past and living for the living, as Tarah suggests, but I couldn’t think of any useful oaths that would involve this.
2. It could be, like the sky breaker third ideal, that he just has to choose a side and it’s up to him what he chooses. And Kaladin was unable to choose humans. While this really speaks to the struggle that Kaladin was having, it doesn’t really make sense that he would be thinking about all the people he lost, as this doesn’t really affect them or how Kaladin thinks of them. 
3. It could be something along the lines of “I will protect myself first so I can live to continue the fight.” This is something I feel Kaladin would really struggle with and does make sense as an oath. But it doesn’t really fit with his struggle, and it doesn’t really fit with thinking of the people he has lost. It does make sense with the Windrunner Gemstone.
4. The one that I currently think is most likely. There’s a lot of conversations about leadership in this book and that’s been a popular theory before. All of the people he lost were people who died at the hands of an unjust leadership system. I think the oath may be something along the lines of not risking himself for individuals, but to think of the bigger picture. Doing the most good for the greatest amount of people, which may require sacrificing some individuals. Kaladin does tend to protect the small group of people he cares for rather than thinking on a bigger scale. I’m not sure how this really resolves the human/parshmen dilemma. And Kaladin seemed to be taking the whole lighteyes thing pretty well. But this does make sense as far as the Windrunner Gemstone goes.

Edited November 22, 2017 by IntentAwesome
Edited to add quotes

[lastofus]

• I will defend/help anyone who asks for it.
• I will accept casualties to save more people.
• I will let myself be helped, I cannot do everything alone.
• I won't be ashamed to lose, I will stand up again.

I think any of the above can somehow be the 4th ideal. I will re-read the whole book and think on it more. The best thing is that Kaladin already knows it, he just can't say it. Maybe the journey to active it is above the wording or finding an interpretation of it that feels better than the rest.

[Mr Horrible]

My guess would be: "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can".

[jamesgrey]

"I will not let those I can't save prevent me from saving those I can" was what I was thinking

 

[zebobes]

"I will let learn to let go of those whom I cannot or could not save."

[Aminar]

It seems to me that it will be something about not letting failures hinder his ability to protect others. Something Kal's depression will have an enormousl conflict with. 

[Subvisual Haze]

These are all good guesses, and likely very close to the truth but I worry that they sound rather callous.  I agree that from a logical and efficiency standpoint Kaladin would be more effective if he "grew calluses" like his father recommends, but at the same time the fact that he cares so much for his people and the lost is his best leadership attribute.  I would say in the real world there is no better characteristic to have in a leader/mentor, than to know that they truly care about you and your well-being.

Perhaps it will be something like "I will honor the fallen" (in contrast to just mourning the fallen) or even just a re-phrasing of "I will place the lives of others before death, their journies before their destinations".

I think this hits at a very important theme with Kaladin.  Almost all of his "failures" as he sees them, were actually successes.  Sure, he has seen the death of many under his protection, but almost all of them died with more purpose/hope/happiness than if he had not been protecting them.  It was an end, but a better end.  Tien knew his brother was there, his soldiers in Amaram's army felt hope and purpose in a pointless war, his bridgemen felt more alive than ever in a hopeless situation, Elkohar finally felt like a hero etc.  Even Syl says she first sought Kaladin out because of how he made the soldiers under his command feel.  Sizgil makes similar statements in WOK, at first he hated Kaladin for giving Bridge 4 false hopes of survival, but in time came to accept that even if Kaladin couldn't save Bridge 4 he was like a surgeon easing their suffering.

I don't want Kaladin to stop caring, but him being able to see the effects of what he's doing on people's quality of life beyond just lived/died seems the most important revelation he can have.

[Aminar]

33 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

These are all good guesses, and likely very close to the truth but I worry that they sound rather callous.  I agree that from a logical and efficiency standpoint Kaladin would be more effective if he "grew calluses" like his father recommends, but at the same time the fact that he cares so much for his people and the lost is his best leadership attribute.  I would say in the real world there is no better characteristic to have in a leader/mentor, than to know that they truly care about you and your well-being.

Perhaps it will be something like "I will honor the fallen" (in contrast to just mourning the fallen) or even just a re-phrasing of "I will place the lives of others before death, their journies before their destinations".

I think this hits at a very important theme with Kaladin.  Almost all of his "failures" as he sees them, were actually successes.  Sure, he has seen the death of many under his protection, but almost all of them died with more purpose/hope/happiness than if he had not been protecting them.  It was an end, but a better end.  Tien knew his brother was there, his soldiers in Amaram's army felt hope and purpose in a pointless war, his bridgemen felt more alive than ever in a hopeless situation, Elkohar finally felt like a hero etc.  Even Syl says she first sought Kaladin out because of how he made the soldiers under his command feel.  Sizgil makes similar statements in WOK, at first he hated Kaladin for giving Bridge 4 false hopes of survival, but in time came to accept that even if Kaladin couldn't save Bridge 4 he was like a surgeon easing their suffering.

I don't want Kaladin to stop caring, but him being able to see the effects of what he's doing on people's quality of life beyond just lived/died seems the most important revelation he can have.

Agreed. I just think that it has to be something in direct conflict with his "darkness" It isn't callous to move on after loss. It's necessary. Whatever the oath is, it's got to be related to that conflict. That Kaladin cannot let go of the people he's lost. (But he's starting to. His infatuation with Shallan related to Tien, and he managed to see his family. Those factors play into this somehow.)

Which brings up some things we should probably think on. The oaths seem to have an odd structure. I'll need to look at the Skybreaker Oaths Nale swore and figure out that pattern at some point, but the later oaths seem to be about tempering or mastering the second and third oaths. I can't quite wrap my mind around it from memory though. 

[Salkara]

It'll probably come to a head when he next sees Moash/Vyre (a person he will want to save but can't).

[taxilian he/him]

I would personally guess that it's somewhat similar to Dallinar's most recent one, something like: "Even when I fail, I will continue to protect" -- something along the lines of "I'll accept my weaknesses and not let them destroy me"

[Marethyu316]

I think that the epigraph for chapter 86 gives a clue:

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My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people? —From drawer 10-12, sapphire

It sounded like something that Kaladin would struggle with as well, and he then went on to not being able to say it. That made me wonder if it isn't something like, "I will let people protect themselves, if they are able" or something like that. It seems like Kaladin has a hang up about needing to protect everyone, including members of Bridge Four who were in the midst of learning to protect themselves. 

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that is right now that I finished the book, but it's what I thought when I read that epigraph.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

It will be about the serendipity to accept those that you cannot save- key for Kal at the end of Part 3 and Part 4, something he knew was the Words but has never been able to make himself accept, and links into 1) his past experiences esp Tien 2) being a soldier 3) being a doctor/surgeon (and his memories of his father, in fact his issues with this may well starts with the fall out of this aspect and Roshone's son) 4) most importantly a KEY aspect of being a leader (which is where we think the remaining ideals will go)- sacrifice of others and not always just himself.

 

Also pleasingly something he can learn from Dalinar and also his own father which will be nice

[Ryshadium she/her]

I imagine it may have something to do with letting go in some way. Whether that be letting go of the past, or accepting when he is unable to protect someone, I don’t quite know. 

It seems that he resisted heavily in part because he maybe felt that saying the words would possibly make them lose Adolin? I’m really not sure.

[Matt Snow he/him]

I believe that Kaladin's Fourth Ideal will be something regarding his being unable to save everyone, but I think there's a more important question. If I understood correctly, Teft is also a Windrunner now, but he spoke an Ideal we haven't read before:

"I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate most is myself."

This Ideal is closest to Kaladin's third spoken Ideal, "I will protect those I hate, so long as it is right".

Now assuming this is Teft's third Ideal, then that could mean that each Ideal a Radiant says is somewhat tailored to that specific Radiant, so the part after the comma is how the Ideal "I will protect those I hate," applies to each Radiant. Taking Teft vs Kaladin you have Teft who's Ideal also includes protecting/taking care of himself (at least I read it as such), while Kaladin's is more focused on recognizing that he has to protect everyone, even if he doesn't want to. The second part seems to add context/offer a solution to a problem that particular Radiant has when viewed through that Ideal.

Of course this immediately runs into a problem since the second Ideal of the Windrunners didn't have this... tailoring to it. Right now I'm thinking it's something that applies from the third Ideal onward, like the Skybreakers pledging themselves to a code of their choosing, the Windrunners 3rd, 4th, and 5th Ideals tailor themselves to the Windrunner that is speaking them, adding information or conditions to that specific Ideal to help thar Windrunner in particular.

Of course this based only on 2 line of text so it all be completely wrong. Any thoughts?

[RShara she/her]

I wonder if it'll be something like, "I will accept death as part of the journey."

[A Windspren he/him]

I will accept that I cannot protect them all.

[IntentAwesome]

So far, the Windrunner oaths have seemed the most rigid of all of them to me. We've always known that some oaths are up to interpretation, though they cover the same basic idea. I don't think the Third Windrunner Oath is really individualized; it's still the same idea. It's just the who Teft hates is himself, while Kaladin hates others.

 

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Jeremy (paraphrased)

Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is.

 

 

From what we've been given so far, I think the Fourth Ideal will need to meet these three criteria:

1. It will need to be an understanding that will help Kaladin resolve the dilemma he faced in the fight in the palace.

2. It will be something so difficult for Kaladin to live by that he couldn't even do it to save Syl, Pattern, Shallan, Adolin, and Dalinar. That's a lot of important people. And we know that Kaladin has a "saving people thing" as Hermione Granger once put it.

3. As the chapter epigraph for 86 implies, it is something that actually goes against a Windrunner's natural desire to help and protect others.

I think Kaladin actually did a fair job already in Oathbringer accepting his weaknesses; in the battle against Amaram, he acknowledge his need to be saved, so I don't think that was difficult enough. Same with protecting just the ones he can; Kaladin expressed the same idea to Elhokar when Kal told him to save just his son and leave the queen. And Kaladin does already get back up every time he fails, though he can't stop beating himself up over it. So I don't think any of those are difficult enough for Kaladin to not be able to swear it.

It would be interesting, I think, to see Kaladin reject the next oath and instead find something else, maybe finding a way for humans and parshendi to work together. But I also want to see Kaladin get his plate.

[RShara she/her]

It might be something like, "Some must die, that others may be saved."

[Argent he/him]

I also thought it would need to be something related to not shouldering all of the burden himself. Focusing on the exact words is probably not a good idea, as the wording of the Immortal Words seems flexible, but I imagine something about allowing others to protect themselves? Or, alternatively, letting himself be protected. 

[A Windspren he/him]

A lot of these suggestions have been really Amaram-y. Considering the way he turned out, I really hope that they aren't the Fourth Ideal.

[RShara she/her]

Maybe, "I will forgive myself if I fail" ?

[Aminar]

What if its "I will take no sides?" 

[RShara she/her]

7 minutes ago, Aminar said:

What if its "I will take no sides?" 

Hmmm I don't know.  The Windrunners seemed to take sides all the time, in Dalinar's visions and Kaladin's actions, plus the commentary from the gemstones.

[Seloun]

I'm inclined to say that it does have to do with triaging. If we accept that the windspren start showing up around Kaladin when he's getting close to the Fourth Ideal -

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Kaladin, you can’t save them all.

...

The storm raged against him, but he held the point in a formation of windspren that spread from him like wings, diverting the storm. He managed to turn his head as the storm battered him. People huddled behind him, soaked, confused—surrounded by calm.

“Go!” he shouted. “Go!”

They found their feet, the young father taking his son back from Kaladin’s leeward arm. Kaladin backed up with them, maintaining the windbreak. This group was only some of those trapped by the winds, yet it took everything Kaladin had to hold the tempest.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 322-323). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

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“Honor is dead,” Kaladin said. “But the Bondsmith is not. You say that you can see how human variety gives us strength—well, I challenge you to do the same. See beyond the letter of your rules. You must understand that my need to defend the Bondsmith is more important than your need to deliver Syl—especially considering that the Stormfather is well aware of her location.”

The captain glanced at the windspren, which were still spinning about Kaladin, leaving trails that drifted the entire length of the ship before fading.

“I will consider,” the captain said.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1017-1018). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The Second and Third Ideals are very inclusive - protecting those that can't protect themselves, and protecting everyone despite his dislike for them. However, this inclusiveness leads Kaladin to start questioning the potential conflicts of Ideals starting in WoR, and it comes to a head during the Kholinar Oathgate scene:

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In that moment, Kaladin lost something precious. He’d always been able to trick himself into seeing a battle as us against them. Protect those you love. Kill everyone else. But …but they didn’t deserve death.

None of them did.

He locked up. He froze, something that hadn’t happened to him since his first days in Amaram’s army. The Sylspear vanished in his fingers, puffing to mist. How could he fight? How could he kill people who were just doing the best they could?

[Many deaths]

Kaladin slumped to his knees. His Stormlight seemed to frighten off the enemies; everyone stayed away from him. Syl spun around him, begging for him to listen, but he couldn’t hear her.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 818). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

And this results in everyone Kaladin was trying to protect here dying - in trying to save them all, he saves none of them.

It's interesting to note that Kaladin seems to make an assumption that he has to kill people to protect here; I'm not sure if this is Kaladin's mistake or the writing, but he doesn't seem to consider potentially non-lethal solutions, e.g. lashings. Of course it probably would be a very short term solution if he couldn't get people to disengage, and he probably still wouldn't have been able to save everyone. It might also be representative that protecting people non-lethally is probably easier if you have Shardplate instead of just a Shardblade.

So the Fourth Ideal is probably some kind of priority or exception handling so the Windrunner doesn't blue screen (so to speak) as Kaladin does here. That said, I think there are probably multiple variants that the Oaths will accept. We know that there's a lot of leeway in how the Oaths can be interpreted and accepted (even from the Skybreakers, who likely have the most stringent requirements on their Oaths), and among other things we see Dalinar apparently make up his own (while this is probably somewhat related to his powers as a Bondsmith, the Stormfather is surprised by Dalinar's Oath and what it lets him do - presumably the Stormfather already knows what a Bondsmith should be able to do). So it may be that Kaladin won't be able to accept the 'canon' version of the Oath and find a different way to do his triaging. The Oathgate scene shows that Kaladin has to find some kind of solution, even if it's not the seemingly callous solution the old Windrunners apparently ended up with.

It's worth noting that the optimal solution to the problem with the Fused (though perhaps not Odium in general) is probably not to restore the Oathpact, but to convince the parshmen stop sacrificing themselves to them. Everyone is worried about the ability of the Fused to return, not realizing or knowing that they need willing volunteers to do so. I don't think simply choosing a side is the ultimate 'right' answer for Kaladin, even if he does need a way to make choices when necessary. Instead, I think his job will be to find a third option.

[Mondaysjelly]

I will protect the living, with the strength of the fallen.