[OB] Fourth Windrunner Ideal

[Cenanin]

On 11/22/2017 at 5:44 PM, Harry the Heir said:

See, I think that's more of a grimdark idea than the Stormlight Archive is really built for. To my mind, the lesson that Kaladin needs to learn is that the Singers also need to be protected.

Picking a side. He's gotta choose. Just like Szeth who is kinda "anti-Kaladin." Those were his huge hang ups in Oathbringer. In part 1 with the parshmen, in the palace, and after seeing a vision of Dalinar become Odium's champion. He can't choose, but Dalinar saved himself. 

"I will protect for Dalinar Kholin"

"I will lead for Dalinar Kholin"

If he had sworn that and then Dalinar picked Odium, Kaladin would have been majorly screwed. He thought Dalinar was about to fall and he "can't lose him....Almighty, I can't save him."

[Bort]

Some interesting posts, but I have to say I'm in the faction that believes the fourth oath will be about forgiving himself for his failures, or maybe accepting that there are some who cannot be protected, and they should be abandoned to protect those still living.

Or something like that.

[Hero of the Rev]

My theory is that the Fourth Ideal will be along the lines of what most have put forward in this thread, that he will learn to recognize his limitations and swear to protect or save those he can and not feel guilty over those he can't. I think the "sacrifice the one to save the many" formulation some have put forth is a bit too utilitarian, though.

Spitballing here, but I suspect the Words will come in a standoff with Moash-Vyre. Kaladin will recognize that Moash made his own choices — decisions that Kaladin could have made (and nearly did) — and that he can't save his best friend from the choices he made because Moash had no desire to change himself. I'm not certain what the exact formulation will be, but that would mean finally refusing to allow his guilt over his perceived failures to his friends to rule him — including, most notably, over Tien. It fits with Moash being the reflection of Kaladin, who Kaladin would have been had he made a different choice at the end of WoR.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Hero of the Rev

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

On 11/16/2017 at 7:46 PM, Starla said:

Here is the three parts of this scene put together:

Quote

Kaladin fell to his knees on the cold obsidian of Shadesmar. Fused descended around them, six figures in brilliant, flapping clothing. He had a single slim hope. Each Ideal he’d spoken had resulted in an outpouring of power and strength. He licked his lips and tried whispering it. “I … I will…” He thought of friends lost. Malop. Jaks. Beld and Pedin. Say it, storm you! “I…” Rod and Mart. Bridgemen he’d failed. And before them, slaves he’d tried to save. Goshel. Nalma, caught in a trap like a beast. A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light. Then another. A single hope. The Words. Say the Words!

Kaladin stuttered, the Words stumbling. He thought of his men from Amaram’s army. Dallet and his squad, slain either by Shallan’s brother or by Amaram. Such good friends who had fallen. And then, of course, he thought of Tien.

Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar. Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them? The Fused swept close. Adolin bled. “I…” You know what you need to do. “I … can’t,” Kaladin finally whispered, tears streaming down his cheeks. “I can’t lose him, but … oh, Almighty … I can’t save him.” Kaladin bowed his head, sagging forward, trembling. He couldn’t say those Words. He wasn’t strong enough. Syl’s arms enfolded him from behind, and he felt softness as her cheek pressed against the back of his neck. She pulled him tight as he wept, sobbing, at his failure.

/Quote

The fact that he knows the words but cannot speak them, while thinking of all the people he failed to protect, makes me think it relates to letting go of people he lost. He cares deeply for these people and is still grieving over every one, and probably feels that letting go of them is too painful or a betrayal of his connection to them. This is common in the loss of a loved one, where people can’t move on because they are afraid they will lose that person forever, and it can cripple them to where they can't act in the present. I can't think of anything else that would make him sob openly than the thought of letting Tien go. There is a fine line between caring too much and caring too little, and I think he'll need to find that to be able to say these words.

Looking at this particular piece after considering the conversation Kaladin has with the Honorspren captain, It seems to me that the oath would have something to do with accepting that a mission or a cause can be more important than a single person. I lack the words to put this in the terms of the ideal itself

[Watchcry]

If he is to protect those he hates, if it is right, perhaps his oath will be "I will risk losing those I care about to accomplish that which is right (or the greater good)."

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Chapter title for the Chapter where Kaladin watches all the people/listeners that he cares about Kill each other and freezes is called "The One You Can Save". Also, before this we get a scene from his initial spear man days where he freezes during training because he realizes that he could kill. It's an interesting counter re-enforcement of the notion of limited protection. I think the 4th windrunner Ideal is simply this:

"Protect the ones you can save"

Which, if sworn as an ideal, has the logical condition that the Radiant has to accept that he can't save everyone, which in my opinion is the thing that Kaladin has the hardest time doing.

I personally think that Kaladin will never swear this ideal, and as a consequence he will develop different manifestations of power than any Windrunner has previously had, precisely because he isn't willing to accept not being able to protect people. I think that a spren wouldn't accept an Ideal sworn without belief and I think his darkness and his pain are instrumental in the makeup of who he is. I think Kal is going to be the best KR, even though he is stuck perpetually on the 3rd ideal. What's the big deal if he doesn't have shardplate, he's fought off countless shardbearers without it, and frankly I think he is a lot more interesting of a hero without it. His apparent weakness is actually his greatest strength.

[Factfinder]

I have a different take on the fourth Ideal than the general consensus of this topic seems to be converging on.  Here’s my version:

“No one can be strong all the time.  I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself.”

For that matter, here’s my take on the fifth Ideal while I’m at it:

“I will lead my allies in the defense of _________.”

Where “_________” is left up to the individual Windrunner to decide.  Maybe it’s as restrictive as “my little brother Oroden”.  Maybe it’s as broad as “Roshar” or even “the cosmere” for the really ambitious.  But let’s get into reasons.

(By the way, this is my first post; I don’t really…. do… forums usually, but Sanderson has enough books out with enough subtleties that it’s nearly impossible for one person to pick up on everything by themselves.  So here we are with the exception to the rule.  I mention this in the event that I violate some rule or etiquette without realizing it.  My sincere apologies if so.)

When trying to work out the fourth Ideal, I focused on different moments in the Stormlight Archive than other people seemed to.  I considered the moment in Way of Kings where Kaladin nearly saw Bridge Four wiped out in a retaliatory strike after distracting the Parshendi with his bone-covered armor, only for Dalinar to save the day by deliberately cutting down the enemy archers.  Or when Kaladin killed the Chasmfiend in Words of Radiance, but only managed to do so by borrowing Shallan’s shardblade and taking advantage of an assist from her illusions.  Or during the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin and Shallan are out of stormlight and Adolin is injured, and the only reason all three of them didn’t die right then and there was another assist from Dalinar.

In all of these scenes, Kaladin curses himself for not being able to protect those around him on his own.  And that’s what I think the fourth Ideal really needs to address: the fact that, powerful as he is, Kaladin must accept he is just one man and cannot do everything by himself.  He needs allies.  More importantly, he needs to understand that sometimes HE is the one those allies will need to protect, and that he is just as deserving of that protection as everyone else.

Syl even flat-out tells him this during the climax of Oathbringer (chapter 119) when she says, “Maybe you don’t have to save everyone Kaladin.  Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.”  In context that quote comes across as her merely reassuring Kaladin that everything will be okay, but I think it was actually more hidden-in-plain-sight foreshadowing from Sanderson.  Keep in mind that this quote came immediately after Kaladin tried to say the fourth Ideal so he could claim more power and save his allies.  If my suspicion about what the forth ideal entails is correct, this would neatly explain his failure to do so.  His intentions at the time were in direct conflict with the oath he had to swear. 

 Notice as well that the wording of this oath is specific.  “I will accept the protection of my allies.”  Not, “I will leave others to die.”  Not, “I will throw innocents into harm to better save my own skin.”  No, the protection has to be just as freely offered as Kaladin’s protection of others, and from allies who are therefore presumably capable of offering that protection.  A child could not rightly be considered an ally in a war, so there’s no worry about a conflict of oaths if Kaladin refuses to let a five year old fight his battles for him either.

Finally, I see this oath as a stepping-stone in the Windrunner’s oaths moving from protection to leadership, since those are the attributes they are supposed to be representing.  The progression of oaths would therefore be:

Second: declaration to protect others.

Third: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner will protect for selfless reasons.

Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own.  Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now).

Fifth: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual.

So what do other readers think?  Personally, I believe this is a much more positive oath than vowing to accept that some people can’t be saved (which seems to violate Life before Death to my mind) or that it may be necessary to murder innocents for the greater good (which seems to violate Journey before Destination), while solving many of the same moral issues.

[Vissy]

Maybe it's going to be something quite simple, and something that has been foreshadowed before with Tarah and Tien.

"I will protect the living, even if I must let go of the dead to do so."

Plus echoes Life over Death.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Vissy

[IllNsickly]

I will not hate myself for those I cannot save.

[Awesomness]

3 hours ago, Factfinder said:

Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own.  Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now).

I like this idea. He cannot protect everyone, but he can let other protect, and inspire them to do so. Hence the leadership. 

The only loophole I see is that he is already doing this. Maybe he should concisely accept that by doing this he will be letting the people he cares about put themselves in danger...

[Factfinder]

Quote

I like this idea. He cannot protect everyone, but he can let other protect, and inspire them to do so. Hence the leadership. 

The only loophole I see is that he is already doing this. Maybe he should concisely accept that by doing this he will be letting the people he cares about put themselves in danger...

I was going to address this part in my post, but it was already getting absurdly long...  

It's true that Kaladin leads Bridge Four into dangerous situations, but pay attention to Kaladin's inner monologues on this topic.  He always frames his interactions with the team in terms of how he, Kaladin, will protect the other members.  In the early chapters of Words of Radiance, Kaladin even berates himself for not asking Dalinar to make all of Bridge Four surgeons, specifically because he doesn't want them risking themselves.  Remember as well that he only taught them to fight in the first place as a means of keeping them safe / helping them to escape from a dangerous situation.  Not once does he ever consider a situation in which they're the ones looking out for him (beyond moral support, anyway), or placing themselves at risk on his behalf.  Quite the opposite; every time they do, he actively objects and tries to stand between Bridge Four and danger no matter how injured or exhausted he might be at the time.  Over the long run, that behavior will just get him killed.  And who can he protect then, eh?

It's also interesting to compare Kaladin to Teft (our other Windrunner).  They've both sworn the third Ideal by the end of Oathkeeper, so the fourth should involve something they both need to work on.  Teft hates himself and thinks himself less worthy of life than his friends.  Kaladin suffers from depression and uses the need to protect his friends as an excuse to go on living when he's at his lowest points.  Both of those men would have a real problem with an oath to let others protect them, and such an oath would be an excellent way to drive character growth.  Teft needs to learn that he is a good person worth saving, and Kaladin needs to learn that there's nothing wrong with having his allies face danger beside him, sharing the burden, rather than making them stand several steps behind while he tries to carry it all.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Factfinder said:

Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own.  Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now).

Fifth: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual.

I really, really like this. Especially because it shows, that a Windrunner is still primarily a protector, but that this protection in the end morphs into leadership. It also very much fits with the memory crystal epigraph ("Am I not supposed to want to protect?") we have and the problems, that Kaladin has at the moment. That he is still clings to those that have died, those that he couldn't protect.

[DocHoliday]

@Factfinder dude, so many upvotes. You nailed it IMO. Ill be your Herald come confirmation.

[+Extesian]

The best kind of genius @Factfinder, the kind that seems so obvious once you hear it. 

I will let others protect, even myself, when they are best placed to do so?

[Erandeni]

19 hours ago, Factfinder said:

Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own.  Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now).

Fifth: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual.

Love this idea, specially the fifth, assuming leadership mirror pretty well the "becoming the law" of the skybreakers.

[Silvercloak]

Just got to the end of the book.  I felt like I had missed something as I didn't recall Kaladin swearing the fourth ideal.  And it didn't appear Shallon progressed much in her radianthood either.  

Glad I'm not the only one scratching my head over this.

[thegatorgirl00]

After reading through this thread, I'm going to take a slightly different approach to guessing the next ideal. I'm going to look at where I think the oaths are ultimately leading to see what steps need to be taken to get there.

I think that the fifth oath of every order of knights comes with the understanding that the thing which originally attracted a spren to you, while good, is ultimately a flawed and imperfect system. I think that's why it's so hard for knights of any order to achieve the fifth ideal. They have to admit their philosophy on life isn't perfect, which many people can't do. Looking at Skybreakers, what initially attracts Nale to Szeth is his ability to follow the law no matter what. Yet Nale later tells Szeth that the law is imperfect because it was created by imperfect men. This is not something that someone who only swears to obey the law no matter what would admit. We also have the Lightweavers, who acknowledge all the different parts of themselves by their fifth oath, despite the fact that lies were what drew a Cryptic to them in the first place. While they lie to others, a Lightweaver at that stage likely can't lie to themselves in the way one at an earlier truth can. Lies to themselves aren't good for them, even though it is what drew a Cryptic in the first place.

I think the we are moving to something similar with the Windrunners. Although Windrunners will always protect, they will eventually realize that trying to protect everyone in the way Kaladin wants to is a flawed system that just isn't as good as he wants to think. No one person can protect everyone. Yet that's what Syl says initially attracted him to her: his constant attempts to save everyone. I like the ideas of letting go of the ones you can't save or letting others save themselves/you because I think they both move towards this realization.

On 12/18/2017 at 5:59 PM, Factfinder said:

Finally, I see this oath as a stepping-stone in the Windrunner’s oaths moving from protection to leadership, since those are the attributes they are supposed to be representing.

I am very skeptical of any argument that uses the idea that an oath needs to be about leadership. That chart is a representation of ideas created by people on Roshar, and the Ars Arcanum can be wrong about such things, especially when the people are wrong about them. Lightweavers don't show any creativity in their oaths. All they speak are truths, which is just honest. Skybreakers are confident in following their codes, but there isn't any specific oath about being confident. And while we haven't seen every Bondsmith oath, I can't imagine how Dalinar's future oaths would involve him swearing to be more pious or how that would relate to uniting and guiding people, which is what Bondsmiths seem to be about.

[Factfinder]

Quote

I am very skeptical of any argument that uses the idea that an oath needs to be about leadership. That chart is a representation of ideas created by people on Roshar, and the Ars Arcanum can be wrong about such things, especially when the people are wrong about them. Lightweavers don't show any creativity in their oaths. All they speak are truths, which is just honest. Skybreakers are confident in following their codes, but there isn't any specific oath about being confident. And while we haven't seen every Bondsmith oath, I can't imagine how Dalinar's future oaths would involve him swearing to be more pious or how that would relate to uniting and guiding people, which is what Bondsmiths seem to be about.

I'll have to think about the first part of your post for a while, but let me offer the counterargument to what you say here.

First, Lightweavers are already weird in that they don't swear oaths at all beyond the first, unlike all the other orders we know about.  So I don't think they can be used as a "normal" example.  I would argue that they do demonstrate both of their stated attributes though: honesty in the truths they tell to advance in rank, and as for creativity the in-universe book Words of Radiance states that the Lightweavers "included many who pursued the arts; namely writers, artists, musicians, and sculptors."

For the Skybreakers, I'd say that the fourth Ideal (the Ideal of Crusade) is all about gaining confidence by another name.  This ideal, after all, is about accomplishing a life goal.  To draw upon my own life, I'd say this is similar to the process I went through to earn my PhD, a goal that took years of hard work and dedication to achieve.  Early on, my advisor / mentor told me that I'd know I was ready to graduate when one day I woke up and realized that I'd stopped treating him and the other members of the faculty with awe or deference and started treating them as equals -- in other words, when I had gained confidence in my abilities as a fellow scientist.  For the Skybreakers, I'd say the Ideal of Crusade is all about fulfilling a personal mission in order to gain the confidence they'll need to be able to swear the Ideal of Law later on.  

As to the Bondsmiths showing Piety and Guidance, Dalinar's second oath already shows the latter (bringing men together requires the Bondsmith to guide men toward greater unity).  As to piety, consider Dalinar's latest  oath in the context of who the gods of Roshar are:

"I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."

Odium very clearly wanted Dalinar to blame his mistakes on others, leaving him to wallow in perceived injustice, his worst traits unchecked and his resentment at the world festering.  (This, by the way, appears to be where Moash is at by the end of Oathbringer.)  Accepting personal responsibility and thereby learning from his mistakes was a key trait in making Dalinar a more honorable man.  This oath, therefore, is all about rejecting the influence of humanity's old god, Odium, in favor of their new god, Honor.  

I suspect Ishar himself was the original missionary of Honor that helped covert the humans of Roshar to the worship of the Almighty; his artistic depictions and actions as Tezim scream "cleric" to me.  Dalinar's future oaths might involve him seeking to reform the Vorin church so it more closely resembles Honor's intent.  The Alethi highprinces in particular could use some ardents explaining that backstabbing and betrayal should be for Odium's worshipers, not those of the Almighty.  More generically, Dalinar could swear to cultivate (deliberate word choice there) humanity's relationship with Honor.

 

Also, I apologize for being so long-winded.  For my next oath, I swear to be less long-winded in future posts.

[thegatorgirl00]

16 minutes ago, Factfinder said:

First, Lightweavers are already weird in that they don't swear oaths at all beyond the first, unlike all the other orders we know about.  So I don't think they can be used as a "normal" example.  I would argue that they do demonstrate both of their stated attributes though: honesty in the truths they tell to advance in rank, and as for creativity the in-universe book Words of Radiance states that the Lightweavers "included many who pursued the arts; namely writers, artists, musicians, and sculptors."

I'm not saying Lightweavers aren't creative. My point was that Lightweavers don't have to be creative to advance in their bond. I see what you mean for the other orders, but I think that shows most orders most orders showed attributes more subtly. While I like your idea for the fourth ideal, I'm not convinced on your fifth ideal. 

Also, for future reference, your not supposed to double post. There's an edit button at the bottom of your post to use instead. 

[Factfinder]

Well, I did ask to be corrected if I committed a faux pas... My mistake!  

....

After thinking it over for a day, I believe I found a fifth oath that weds the main point I was trying to make with the main ones thegatorgirl00 and a few others were making.  Specifically:

Quote

I think that the fifth oath of every order of knights comes with the understanding that the thing which originally attracted a spren to you, while good, is ultimately a flawed and imperfect system. I think that's why it's so hard for knights of any order to achieve the fifth ideal. They have to admit their philosophy on life isn't perfect, which many people can't do.

Try this on for for a fifth Windrunner Ideal:

"I will teach / inspire those in danger to protect each other."

This makes the leadership role I originally suggested less blatant (which I now think was a very valid criticism offered by thegatorgirl00) while preserving the actual intent.  It is also contrary to the "thing that originally attracted a spren", in that it no longer involves the Windrunner actively protecting people in person.  However, like a Skybreaker becoming a source of the law, the Windrunner is still effectively a source of large-scale protection through indirect means.  

As for the fifth Ideal being difficult to swear...  Imagine how hard it would be for someone like Kaladin to admit that he can't always step in and protect people from danger, and that sometimes they'll have to do it themselves.

This just occurred to me as I typed this, but the above Ideal would fit right in with the actions of Queen Fen in chapter 34 of Oathbringer, during which the monarch organized the defense of the village being attacked by Midnight Essence in the Stormfather's vision.  Food for thought.

My revised Windrunner oaths would therefore be:

Second: oath of protection

Third: oath to protect for selfless reasons

Fourth: oath to work with allies, accepting that they might be hurt while doing so, to protect against threats too large for one person to deal with on their own.

Fifth: oath to inspire / teach others to protect themselves when the Windrunner cannot be there to protect them in person or is otherwise unable to do so.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Factfinder
Don't want to double post. Again.

[emlylou]

How about something deceptively simple, like "I will let go of the past"?

[emlylou]

Or "I will accept other's failures" / "I accept that others will fail"

[Song]

I am sure this is a hint- though I'm not sure what it means:

"Kaladin, Syl said. You don't need another reason to berate yourself.

She was right. Storms, he could be down on himself sometimes. Was that the flaw that had prevented him from speaking the Words of the Fourth Ideal?

For some reason, Syl sighed. Oh Kaladin."

- Chapter 120 The Spear that would not break

[Glubbdrubb]

I think the real reason Kaladin didn't say the Words is that Brandon didn't want us to see what that would look like in Shadesmar.  

Edited December 30, 2017 by Glubbdrubb

[Scattered]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:33 PM, emlylou said:

Or "I will accept other's failures" / "I accept that others will fail"

What about, "I accept that I will fail" or "I accept that I will not be able to save everyone"?