[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Kered he/him]

17 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

If you mean keeping the kingdoms separate as the goal Odium and Taravangian share, no they don't. Taravangian's goal is to unite the world, and more specifically his goal is to become king of everything.

If you mean limiting Dalinar's power, then maybe. I don't think it's very clear what Taravangian has planned for Dalinar yet. The way the Diagram was worded still leaves it open to interpretation whether he thinks Dalinar is currently a threat to him or a potential ally.

But either way, his goal is to unite the world and prepare mankind for the next Desolation.

I meant the undermining Dalinar. I agree it's not clear what Mr T has planned, but I think it is clear that he wants to remove Dalinar. Turning the kingdoms away from Dalinar would cripple his power, especially if the kingdoms unite against him. Would be a good way, in Mr T's mind, to neutralize Dalinar as an obstacle in his path to be king of Roshar.   

[Ansalem]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Technically Hate cannot exist without living beings to hate each other, . So yielding to Odium might create a society of hate, lack of trust, lack of law etc but I do not believe it would completely wipe out humanity. Odium isn't Ruin.

True, but the Shards' intents are open to interpretation to a certain extent. Hatred can manifest in many different ways. Sometimes it makes you want to hurt things, sometimes it makes you want to destroy them, sometimes it makes you want to simply be better than them, etc. It could easily be that he does want to wipe out humanity and maintain only the Listeners, but I can also see certain interpretations of hatred that would make you want to increase the number of people alive so you can increase the overall amount of hatred or suffering of those you hate. But the Desolations would seem to go against that notion, Odium clearly wants to destroy at least some large percentage of humanity.

In any event, I don't really see any end state that could be considered positive. I think the real question has less to do with Odium and more to do with Taravangian's idea of what preserving humanity means. Is simply having living humans enough? If so, does that mean it's acceptable if they all exist in unending suffering? I don't think he's evil, so I don't really think that would be enough for him, but I could of course be wrong.

[MPHRD]

21 minutes ago, Lazarus52980 said:

Am I the only person who thinks "training" the Parshmen is going to end up backfiring at least to some extent?  I think of it like in the WoT where the Circle is taught to "have a backbone" only to have that very backbone cause problems to the main characters.

I see this backfiring more in political and perception ways with Light eyes and Dark eyes, then the Parshmen betraying Kaladin. For the general public its probably easier to accept Parshmen as viodbringers then as 'people'. Having a slave class become an enemy is easier then accepting how badly they had been treated. 

[vividox]

Oooh, Honorblade exposition. Juicy.

ZAHEL! Yeeeesh! Ah, gone so soon? BS is teasing us. 

Did we know before now that The Thrill was ONLY an Alethi thing? Seems important. And investature-like.

'Gemheart' being used as a term of endearment, that's kind of adorable.

Adolin's shardplate was "stolen" from Iri - Dalinar's past comes back to haunt him again.

Whoa, No more Shshsh? Her name is Evi. Did Stormlight heal his mind?

---

"They've been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored."

Aw, look at our boy Kal, making friends with parshmen. 

---

Shallan's lies are wrong... maybe she's taking on a little too much with her personas?

Shallan the alcoholic.

Hmmm, second double murder. Interesting...

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I'm not entirely certain that T even knows himself the endgame of his own Diagram. I wouldn't be surprised if part of what they are still deciphering is what to do once T is king of Roshar. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have another sucessor after T in case he dies. After all the possibility of Szeth returning after him for revenge was included in the Diagram. But I can't say with certainty, the Diagram is very confusing to try to grasp.

5 minutes ago, vividox said:

Did we know before now that The Thrill was ONLY an Alethi thing? Seems important. And investature-like.

I think its a cultural thing. The Thrill was mainly in Alethkar, but I think we might have seen that there was also a bit on Jah Keved. Don't quote me on that though, as I'm not certain . Its quite likely the Unmade which causes the Thrill resided in Alethkar, this made the Alethi more bloodthirsty warriors, which started legends of how the Thrill was a gift from the Almighty (irony hello). 

Edited October 3, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[maxal she/her]

These weren't my favorite chapters as I felt the story progressed only a little...

Chapter 16

In a general manner, I liked Dalinar's chapters, but it left my dissatisfied. I guess I just never appreciated present day Dalinar as much as the other characters. He feels he needs to fight Odium's Champion, but realizes he may be too old. I was thinking Odium's Champion is probably not a mere human, so no one we know.

I liked finding out about General Khal's sons: this is the sort of details I love finding out about.

The confrontation with Kadash was fine, but of all the conflicts Brandon could have articulate around Dalinar's character, I feel he chosen the least interesting one. I thought there was more potential working with a conflict with Dalinar's family, with Adolin not being a Radiant, with Dalinar not remembering his wife, but Brandon seems to have chosen a Dalinar/Kadash/Ardentia conflict. I find it less engaging.

I loved the discussion with the Iriali queen though. I loved how she accused Dalinar of having stolen a Shardplate, Adolin's Plate and now demands it is returned to her. I do not know what Dalinar will do, it is either he find send the Plate back (and Adolin will be 100% fine with it because he is fine with everything and has become the most placid character on the cast: at least when Sadeas as around, there was some decent conflict) or he'll argue Adolin has the right to it being half-Riran. It probably won't be such a big plot point, but I thought it was interesting it was brought forward.

I was fun to see Zahel again.

Chapter 17

I was a cute chapter with the insights onto the Parshendis, but Kaladin wanting to lead them, to shape them, to teach them sounds too much like his story arc in WoK. I cannot find it as engaging as back then. 

I would rather Kaladin went to Kholinar and worked onto the rebellion. 

I was however curious about the Voidspren.

Chapter 18

It was my favorite chapter though I did not enjoy its conclusion.

I liked getting more insight on other spheres of Urithiru life than the upper-ranked people. I thought Shallan was a poor spy and I face-palmed at seeing her succeed. She was terrible, so her getting her way was a bit much.

I loved Pattern, really. He likes Adolin. He thinks Adolin is very smart and he wants to marry him. He rationalize Adolin is not to blame for his dead-Blade. I feel in love with Pattern here. He referred to Adolin as "the swordsman". 

For those having argued Shallan never thinks of Adolin and therefore does not really care about him, I thought she was thinking about him quite a lot here.

We saw the white Horneater beer.

Now the part which less me unsatisfied is the idea the copycat murderer is part of greater plot. It has nothing to do with Sadeas, or so it seems at the moment. I have grown somewhat unsatisfied by the lack of focus onto this specific arc: nothing is happening and if we had the copycat murderer to worry about, I felt this arc has been given to another character.

There will be no downfall for Adolin. I just do not see it anymore: Brandon doesn't seem as if he will capitalize on the hundred ways it could have gone wrong. I feel too much of the tension was removed this week, so I hope it picks up next week.

[kari-no-sugata]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

I liked getting more insight on other spheres of Urithiru life than the upper-ranked people. I thought Shallan was a poor spy and I face-palmed at seeing her succeed. She was terrible, so her getting her way was a bit much.

I enjoyed seeing the gritter side of Urithiru too and it looks like we're going to get more. With regards to Shallan, I would say that she was basically "bulldozing" her way through. She knew that she was unlikely to get things quite right and the only way to learn would be to try - it would have been a bigger face-palm if she had got it right first time. She basically failed but pushed on anyway. These experiences should help her do a better job in future, where she doesn't have to directly rely on her abilities as a Radiant and so on.

 

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

There will be no downfall for Adolin. I just do not see it anymore: Brandon doesn't seem as if he will capitalize on the hundred ways it could have gone wrong. I feel too much of the tension was removed this week, so I hope it picks up next week.

Somehow, I can imagine Brandon thinking how he's successfully lured you into a false sense of security...

[vividox]

Yeah, there is absolutely no way Adolin is getting off the hook. You have met Ialai, right? 

[maxal she/her]

Just now, vividox said:

Yeah, there is absolutely no way Adolin is getting off the hook. You have met Ialai, right? 

But NOTHING is happening! I think this weeks pretty much rules out Ialai has being the investigator of the copycat murders. Each week, I am hoping for something to happen, some denouement and always.... nothing. 

[vividox]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

But NOTHING is happening! I think this weeks pretty much rules out Ialai has being the investigator of the copycat murders. Each week, I am hoping for something to happen, some denouement and always.... nothing. 

We are in the middle of part one of five... 

[Khyrindor he/him]

@maxal, we are only getting a few hours/a day of story at a time, it feels spread out to us because there's so much happening at once and only three chapters a week. If we had it all at once, you'd clear through Part 1 in an afternoon and have all the resolutions.

I will maintain that Brandon would never have introduced a problem and not have something happen about it. We haven't gotten deep into it because we're still in the rising action of the book. With so much going on at once, you have to expect it. And though Brandon and his team are releasing it three chapters a week for now, the book was definitely not written with that specifically in mind, which would contribute to it feeling disjointed and slow to start.

Don't loose hope 

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, Rider of Storms said:

@maxal, we are only getting a few hours/a day of story at a time, it feels spread out to us because there's so much happening at once and only three chapters a week. If we had it all at once, you'd clear through Part 1 in an afternoon and have all the resolutions.

I will maintain that Brandon would never have introduced a problem and not have something happen about it. We haven't gotten deep into it because we're still in the rising action of the book. With so much going on at once, you have to expect it. And though Brandon and his team are releasing it three chapters a week for now, the book was definitely not written with that specifically in mind, which would contribute to it feeling disjointed and slow to start.

Don't loose hope 

I agree with you, it's just, I have grown... impatient?

20 chapters is also quite far into the book and I find the story arcs so disconnected... Dalinar unnerves me too. How come nobody asks how Adolin is dealing with everyone being a Radiant? I mean, it was the number one thing readers though should affect him, how come nobody, in-world, even wonders about it, even if it is through a one-liner?

Everything just looks like a big red herring. Mind, maybe Brandon planned it this way, I cannot know but I wish more has happened this week.

[DiamondMind he/him]

So u/Niveo on the reddit reaction thread points out the bouncer for the second bar in chapter 18 is probably Demoux because of the scar. That would be the first sighting of the the 17th shard since the interlude in WoK, wouldn't it?

[kari-no-sugata]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

I agree with you, it's just, I have grown... impatient?

20 chapters is also quite far into the book and I find the story arcs so disconnected... Dalinar unnerves me too. How come nobody asks how Adolin is dealing with everyone being a Radiant? I mean, it was the number one thing readers though should affect him, how come nobody, in-world, even wonders about it, even if it is through a one-liner?

Everything just looks like a big red herring. Mind, maybe Brandon planned it this way, I cannot know but I wish more has happened this week.

Despite the huge length of the books, there's a lot of things that we typically don't see. The chapters generally focus on things happening rather than people just talking and so on. A lot of stuff needs to be inferred. This isn't anything new.

With regards to the murder, I never thought it was likely that it would dominate the book. The world's ending. There's much much bigger problems. Sadeas's standing should have taken a major blow prior to his death as well. Basically, the number of people who genuinely care about his death is quite small. The copy-cat murder would have also sown a lot of confusion on all sides. If we suspect that Ialai was trying to prepare for some kind of revenge that would have definitely thrown her.

But... the scope of the problem is not reducing! The copy-cat murders are increasing the scope of the problem!

What that will mean for Adolin is hard to say but it's quite possibly increasing the stakes for him. ie when his murder of Sadeas does come out it could well make things much worse than they would have been otherwise. So actually, Sadeas's murder could up being much more significant that I had originally expected.

[Herald he/him]

Quote

“What of the thing we fight? Odium, the origin of the Voidbringers and their spren. Can he break oaths?”

No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. These things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he.

One of my favorite part in this week. I wonder if Dalinar remembers someone mentioning Adonalsium to him before 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Herald

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 hours ago, Dahak said:

Rashek did something similar.

That they never have been before IIRC.

Good point, but is there anything like the well of ascension on roshar? 

Is there?

[RazeU]

Ok I read half the posts here and had to jump straight to making a comment. So if this was mentioned in the second half I apologize. 

It seems fairly safe to assume that Shallan is unraveling quickly. It also seems a safe bet that this is because she has not made as much progress with truths as she has with lies (I.e. Not being grounded enough in truths to have a solid lifeline back out of her "lies"). This seems the direction of her inner struggle for OB. And man... from the preview chapters I would never have expected that to have me worried like it does. Amazing work BS. 

Her external goals that are already in place seem terribly daunting. However, she can fail those and most likely not lose herself, her sanity, or Pattern. Yeah... this all has me much more nervous than I would have expected. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by RazeU

[mariapapadia she/her]

38 minutes ago, maxal said:

I agree with you, it's just, I have grown... impatient?

20 chapters is also quite far into the book and I find the story arcs so disconnected... Dalinar unnerves me too. How come nobody asks how Adolin is dealing with everyone being a Radiant? I mean, it was the number one thing readers though should affect him, how come nobody, in-world, even wonders about it, even if it is through a one-liner?

Everything just looks like a big red herring. Mind, maybe Brandon planned it this way, I cannot know but I wish more has happened this week.

My guess would be it's because no one really thinks about the others mental/emotional state. Like why no one is wondering how Renarin is taking being a Radiant? We didn't see a lot of mourning for Jasnah's death from the characters that were closer to her and so on. Especially giving the bigger problems happening in the world, I don't think anyones feelings are on their mind. The only people that I find plausible to think about how Adolin is taking it, are Shallan ( who is too self absorbed & not in the best mental state right now ), Dalinar (who has a lot on his mind and he doesn't think about Renarin either) and Renarin& Navani and we don't get any POV from them. 

I actually though it crossed Renarin's mind when he came to see Adolin in the previous chapters. 

 

Also, am I the only one who noticed that Kaladin was thinking about his escaping attempts as a slave and mentioned a girl? I wonder if we'll get a flashback from that time or it was just random. 

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

22 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Good point, but is there anything like the well of ascension on roshar? 

Is there?

Highstorms are similar, aren't they? If they were in a highstorm, they would possibly have access to enough investiture to make a major change in things. (Speculation)

Edit: @Completeshards said this already.

Edited October 3, 2017 by ElephantEarwax

[maxal she/her]

38 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Despite the huge length of the books, there's a lot of things that we typically don't see. The chapters generally focus on things happening rather than people just talking and so on. A lot of stuff needs to be inferred. This isn't anything new.

With regards to the murder, I never thought it was likely that it would dominate the book. The world's ending. There's much much bigger problems. Sadeas's standing should have taken a major blow prior to his death as well. Basically, the number of people who genuinely care about his death is quite small. The copy-cat murder would have also sown a lot of confusion on all sides. If we suspect that Ialai was trying to prepare for some kind of revenge that would have definitely thrown her.

But... the scope of the problem is not reducing! The copy-cat murders are increasing the scope of the problem!

What that will mean for Adolin is hard to say but it's quite possibly increasing the stakes for him. ie when his murder of Sadeas does come out it could well make things much worse than they would have been otherwise. So actually, Sadeas's murder could up being much more significant that I had originally expected.

Well, yes, I do agree with you.. As I said, the spoon feeding of chapters is making me... so impatient and more critical than I would normally be  I can't help it  Last week's chapters were mostly character building and I loved those chapters. I was fine with the plot not moving forward much because I got something in exchange, but this week it feels like stuff happened and, at the same time, nothing happened. 

I never thought the plot would dominate the book either, but I expect something to come out of it and so far, well, I can't say much has happened.

This week, I thought the stakes were decreasing. The copycat murderer is imitating all murders, not just his, so it isn't about him. It is something else, it has nothing to do with Sadeas, hence if nobody ever finds who did it, then nobody will care.

16 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

My guess would be it's because no one really thinks about the others mental/emotional state. Like why no one is wondering how Renarin is taking being a Radiant? We didn't see a lot of mourning for Jasnah's death from the characters that were closer to her and so on. Especially giving the bigger problems happening in the world, I don't think anyones feelings are on their mind. The only people that I find plausible to think about how Adolin is taking it, are Shallan ( who is too self absorbed & not in the best mental state right now ), Dalinar (who has a lot on his mind and he doesn't think about Renarin either) and Renarin& Navani and we don't get any POV from them. 

I actually though it crossed Renarin's mind when he came to see Adolin in the previous chapters. 

 

Also, am I the only one who noticed that Kaladin was thinking about his escaping attempts as a slave and mentioned a girl? I wonder if we'll get a flashback from that time or it was just random. 

To be fair, Dalinar did address Renarin's new status as a Radiant and so did Adolin, so while it wasn't explored in great depth, it was mentioned. We have very good indications how Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin feels towards Renarin being a Radiant, but on how Adolin is taking it? Not even Renarin broached the subject: he came to see his brother, but it was all about him and not about Adolin Not even a word... As for Dalinar, I swear if I had not read the first two books, I would not think he is Adolin's father. I would think Elhokar is his son, but not Adolin. I would think him a distant relative. I mean, not to say it should have been a major plot point, but shouldn't someone say something? Just once? I mean, one sentence?

I agree about you with Jasnah though Adolin did think of her. Dalinar didn't though, not that I recall, but at least we had some reaction, from Navani. So while it wasn't broached in great details, I did get the characters were mourning her.

As for Kaladin, my feelings were she was an older woman... not a love interest more like a kindred grand-mother? Did I read wrong?

[+eveorjoy she/her]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

There will be no downfall for Adolin. I just do not see it anymore: Brandon doesn't seem as if he will capitalize on the hundred ways it could have gone wrong. I feel too much of the tension was removed this week, so I hope it picks up next week.

@maxal this is just part one. A lot change between now and parts 4 or 5. I think Adolin's crime will not be discovered until the end of the book. I also think as a part of his exile Adolin will give up his Shardplate and then Dalinar can use the plate to bring the Iri in. Now he might have to give up his blade too and that would kill our dreams of Adolin awakening his blade, but then again, he did win that blade so maybe he will keep it with him when he goes into exile. Maybe none of this will happen, but don't assume it won't when we are only in part one.

[Ansalem]

23 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Good point, but is there anything like the well of ascension on roshar? 

Is there?

Undoubtedly. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain all Shards have a Shardpool on a world they're Invested in. It's speculated that the Horneater oceans might be Shardpools. Hoid steps out of one, presumably that's how he got to Roshar in the first place.

Speaking of Shardpools, Urithiru is said to have been built at the place closest to Honor. I'm suddenly wondering if that means Urithiru was built on top of Honor's Shardpool?

[maxal she/her]

Just now, eveorjoy said:

@maxal this is just part one. A lot change between now and parts 4 or 5. I think Adolin's crime will not be discovered until the end of the book. I also think as a part of his exile Adolin will give up his Shardplate and then Dalinar can use the plate to bring the Iri in. Now he might have to give up his blade too and that would kill our dreams of Adolin awakening his blade, but then again, he did win that blade so maybe he will keep it with him when he goes into exile. Maybe none of this will happen, but don't assume it won't when we are only in part one.

Nah my theory for reviving the Blade is he has to lose it first, so it remains consistent with it  I agree it is only part 1, but this did not seem like an arc which needed to span over such a long period. I mean, after a while, Adolin acting weird, nobody noticing, nothing happening, already it is getting old. I can't imagine it will last until part 4.

Wild speculation: Dalinar argues he cannot be accused of having stolen the Plate because it never belonged to him. He asks what the Iriali queen is to do with it and she answers: "Give to someone deserving and Riran as the Plate belongs to Rira". To this Dalinar answers: "This is just perfect, my son owns it and he is half-Riran, so there.". 

Then Adolin is requested to go to Rira  to learn how to be Riran 

[Dahak he/him]

36 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Good point, but is there anything like the well of ascension on roshar? 

Is there?

Cultivation's Shardpool In the Horneaters Mountains that Hoid uses to worldhop? The never exhaustible well in Urithiru, the place closet to Honor? The Origin?

[DiamondMind he/him]

42 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Good point, but is there anything like the well of ascension on roshar? 

Is there?

I feel like you really want to drop a theory here...