[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Nymeros]

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“Every moment in our lives seems trivial,” Zahel said. “Most are forgotten while some, equally humble, become the points upon which history pivots. Like white on black.”

Wow,  I actually understood this perfectly for about 15 seconds. That might be Zahels best yet.

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Is this Peter Ahlstroms Investiture?

Ha! You're probably the 3rd best toaster I have yet encountered.

30 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Had to wait until lunch to read and I am already 6 pages behind! Wow how was Dalinar healed from using the lashing? We finally know her name! Syl confirms the Listners have a spren and it is a void spren? Need to re-read that part and the previous comments. Shallan's personality escaping is concerning. Another copy cat. This changes what I think of the previous one completely. 

It is the nature of the magic. A boken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings.

I think his new Honor based magic pushed Cultivations magic from his soul.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Nymeros

[kari-no-sugata]

I should have seen this joke earlier:

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he’d never known anyone to get as excited by sewage as Navani Kholin.

Clearly Navani is going to get on just fine with "what if you need to poop" Shallan

 

On a more serious note on Shallan: this is the same person who faked a suicide attempt in tWoK. The same person who Soulcast a ship while out on the ocean. She also has this quote from WoR:

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Tyn said that nothing would teach me, Shallan thought, but personal experience. I’m just going to have to muddle through these first few times and hope I get used to this before I get myself killed.

Also:

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One of the soldiers nearby cleared his throat. “You certain you should be that close to the edge, Brightness Radiant?”

She gave the man a droll look. “I could survive that drop and stroll away, soldier.”

 

 

[Daishi5]

29 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I've noticed that there is some interest in Dalinar's returning memory (perhaps that's something of an understatement ). I think that how it happened is explained in the very next chapter, when Syl says:

And that, on a much smaller scale, is exactly what happened to Dalinar. The Nightwatcher ripped off a tiny piece of his soul, broke his Connection to Evi and her memory. The precise mechanism of the healing may remain a mystery (for example, did it happen because he was holding Stormlight when Navani said the name this time, and the Investiture flowed into the wound as it was thus revealed?), but I think we have a general answer to the "how" of it in the restoration of the parshmen.

As to the fear that Odium is somehow involved, I think it significant that Syl only says, "Power has filled the holes"--power, not Odium's power. In other words, Investiture. And Investiture is Investiture. If Odium's Investiture can Heal something, then so can Stormlight, even if it needs to take another path to do it. 

The problem with this theory is that Dalinar was out in the Everstorm the first time and it passed by before his marriage.  When he talked to Navani after those two cases, he still heard shshshsh.  I can think of two things that happened after he heard shshsh the last time and when he heard Evi.  He got married by the Stormfather, and he put on the painrial watch.  

I am betting on the Stormfather's marriage bond being the likely cause, but the painrial is a possibility.  

[Steeldancer he/him]

Ok i have an idea. What if the Honor is pushing Cultivation out because Bondsmiths are more of honor? Meanwhile, Edgedancers are closer to cultivation and thus don't push the Cultivation out. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Ha! You're probably the 3rd best toaster I have yet encountered.

Which are the other two? I will murder them to become the supreme toaster. I will find them and congratulate them for being awesome.

[the_archduke he/him]

Was that the first week of preview chapters that didn't mention May Aladar?  Brandon is trying to throw us off.  I bet she will be Odium's Champion... so she was mentioned in these chapters obliquely.

[Hischier]

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I should have seen this joke earlier:

Clearly Navani is going to get on just fine with "what if you need to poop" Shallan

 

On a more serious note on Shallan: this is the same person who faked a suicide attempt in tWoK. The same person who Soulcast a ship while out on the ocean. She also has this quote from WoR:

Also:

 

She didn't think. She wasn't going for attempted suicide, she was going for accident. 

[Goldencompounder]

The copycat murders, they seem to me as something like when Preservation stabbed Elend. And also as the story father said: 

 

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.

To fight directly might coax out forces  that could hurt him. 

 

So maybe the forces that were hiding is cultivation. So maybe cultivation is being coaxed out already. We know that the old magic/nightwatcher is of cultivation, so when cultivation is being coaxed out it is causeing all those boons and curses to become ineffective. Causeing Dalinar to remember his wife Evi.

 

[frozndevl]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Shallan... Veil is more interesting to me than Shallan herself... But also the growth of veil into her own persona is worrying... And the confusion of Shallan about what is real and what isn't... Shallan is in serious trouble, and until now Pattern didn't realize just how much. 

 

What intrigues me is the thought that at some point, when Shallan goes further downhill, we will see a POV from Veil completely, without the Shallan thoughts at all.

[DSC01 he/him]

@The Invested Beard Why, thank you kindly. I have to admit, I was pretty proud of myself for making the Connection (pun intended, hue hue hue) because I feel like others always beat me to the punch with such insights.

To comment on the chapters more generally, this set really ramped up the excitement factor for me. Everything else so far has been really great, to be sure, because--hey--it's The Stormlight Archive! But now we're really getting into interesting material.

Kaladin reuniting with his family and awing everyone with his Radiance was cool, but now his plot is really getting interesting. He's getting into his teacher/protector role again, and that is great to see, after the events of WoR. The parshmen just being people--being actual slaves who were deeply wronged and not just automatons who were cool with their captivity so long as they remained mindless--is a great story element. 

I think we're starting to see something important about the structure of the series in Shallan's plot. She is echoing Kaladin's arc in WoR, and I think that we're going to keep seeing that (i.e. flashback volume, the character comes into Radiance -> next volume, they almost lose it as they deal with the crisis of what comes next). I don't think it will always be as dramatic as Kaladin losing his powers, since that would probably become tiresome, but SA is all about structure--the trilogy-in-one-volume arrangement, the Interludes, the prologue dealing with the night of Gavilar's assassination from a different POV, etc. A lot of us are worried about Shallan's fracturing of her identity (Identity, even?), but I just think that's just her conflict for this book. Things are going to get dark for her, but she'll come around in the end, and we'll get a scene comparable to the awesomeness of Kaladin exploding in Stormlight and glowing glyphs at the end of WoR.

[Goldencompounder]

I am begining to think that the lightweavers most important job was being spies.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The Nightwatcher's alterations shouldn't be fixable by Stormlight or oath progression... Otherwise Lift shouldn't be possible. What in damnation is going on with Dalinar remembering his wife now?

Possible thought: The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's Investiture. The Stormfather, and Dalinar's Radiant-ness, seem to lean more towards Honor's Investiture. So, Dalinar's boon/curse C-Investiture could be forced out by his Radiant bond's H-Investiture. Lift has C-Investiture as her bond and for her boon/curse so there is no conflict.

We are told that investiture resists other investiture, eh?

[Nymeros]

9 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Which are the other two? I will murder them to become the supreme toaster. I will find them and congratulate them for being awesome.

My aunt's 8 slice toaster (enough for 4 sandwiches!) is second. The Brave Little Toaster is number one of course (hes even been to space).

5 minutes ago, Goldencompounder said:

To fight directly might coax out forces  that could hurt him. 

So maybe the forces that were hiding is cultivation. So maybe cultivation is being coaxed out already.

Smarrtttttttt. How did I miss this?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

Possible thought: The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's Investiture. The Stormfather, and Dalinar's Radiant-ness, seem to lean more towards Honor's Investiture. So, Dalinar's boon/curse C-Investiture could be forced out by his Radiant bond's H-Investiture. Lift has C-Investiture as her bond and for her boon/curse so there is no conflict.

We are told that investiture resists other investiture, eh?

Shouldn't the effects of this have taken place when Dalinar bonded Stormfather though? 

My other issue with the "it has to do with Stormlight/Bondsmith/general Radiancy" idea is that it seems to easy. One of Dalinars major problems, solved just like that? With no effort on Dalinars part, no repercussions, nothing. I don'by it, for story reasons.

[Frostlander]

I'm now thinking that the preface writer is Iri or Rira:

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It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly.

We just got that whole convenient conversation about experience with the Queen of Iri. Not sure if it's Evi writing the book, but the nationality is seeming more likely. And the heretical piece could be the One.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, Nymeros said:

My aunt's 8 slice toaster (enough for 4 sandwiches!) is second. The Brave Little Toaster is number one of course (hes even been to space).

*Begins murderous plotting against fellow toasters*

[DSC01 he/him]

13 minutes ago, Daishi5 said:

The problem with this theory is that Dalinar was out in the Everstorm the first time and it passed by before his marriage.  When he talked to Navani after those two cases, he still heard shshshsh.  I can think of two things that happened after he heard shshsh the last time and when he heard Evi.  He got married by the Stormfather, and he put on the painrial watch.  

I am betting on the Stormfather's marriage bond being the likely cause, but the painrial is a possibility.  

It works if my conjecture is correct--that the Connection was healed specifically because Navani said her name while Dalinar was holding Stormlight. The tiny fissure in Dalinar's soul had become a part of him, so normal Stormlight healing wouldn't fix it. But when Navani said Evi's name, the Investiture "noticed" the hole and filled in the gap to let the name register in his mind.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Shouldn't the effects of this have taken place when Dalinar bonded Stormfather though? 

My other issue with the "it has to do with Stormlight/Bondsmith/general Radiancy" idea is that it seems to easy. One of Dalinars major problems, solved just like that? With no effort on Dalinars part, no repercussions, nothing. I don'by it, for story reasons.

Dalinar only recently bonded the Stormfather. Offhand, I am unsure of the timeline but I think it has only been 2-3 weeks (10-15 days). I don't think the bond with the Stormfather would immediately wipe out any C-investiture; it would take time due to the C-investiture resisting, no?

I fail to see how not remembering his wife is one of Dalinar's major problems. It was inconvenient at times but I wouldn't label it as a problem, much less a major one. Am I missing something? What issues have cropped up or might crop up due to Dalinar not remembering his wife?

[Nymeros]

12 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

What intrigues me is the thought that at some point, when Shallan goes further downhill, we will see a POV from Veil completely, without the Shallan thoughts at all.

Mercy, mercy me, but that might be interesting if done properly.

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

*Begins murderous plotting against fellow toasters*

Noooooo! I knew I should've learned how to read through strikethroughs!

[DSC01 he/him]

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Dalinar only recently bonded the Stormfather. Offhand, I am unsure of the timeline but I think it has only been 2-3 weeks (10-15 days). I don't think the bond with the Stormfather would immediately wipe out any C-investiture; it would take time due to the C-investiture resisting, no?

I fail to see how not remembering his wife is one of Dalinar's major problems. It was inconvenient at times but I wouldn't label it as a problem, much less a major one. Am I missing something? What issues have cropped up or might crop up due to Dalinar not remembering his wife?

Investiture is Investiture. While there is nothing in canon to completely rule out the idea of different sources of Investiture fighting each other, there is a lot that suggests that it's all basically the same stuff. Mistborn (only spoilery if you haven't read the first trilogy):

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation were about as diametrically opposed as two Shards could be, and yet the magic systems on Scadrial were able to run on Investiture from both simultaneously, even in the same person. Heck, Preservation would fuel atium Allomancy, and atium is a part of Ruin.

I am sticking to my hypothesis that the Nightwatcher severed Dalinar's Connection to Evi and her memory. The healing of that wound is just a simple healing, not a counter to the Nightwatcher's magic. The magic was spent in creating the injury, and all the Stormlight did was heal that injury--not challenge the Nightwatcher's power.

[Daishi5]

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He’d lit it with four diamond broams, placed at the corners of the altar-like stone slab. This small room had no strata or paintings on the walls, so the Stormlight lit only him and that alien Blade.

1

So, it seems that not all of Urithiru has the weird strata.  Strangely the lack of strata makes it even weirder.

[Aleksiel]

Can we expect the minds of the Heralds to be fixed similarly to what happened to the parshmen?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Investiture is Investiture. While there is nothing in canon to completely rule out the idea of different sources of Investiture fighting each other, there is a lot that suggests that it's all basically the same stuff. Mistborn (only spoilery if you haven't read the first trilogy):

  Hide contents

Ruin and Preservation were about as diametrically opposed as two Shards could be, and yet the magic systems on Scadrial were able to run on Investiture from both simultaneously, even in the same person. Heck, Preservation would fuel atium Allomancy, and atium is a part of Ruin.

I am sticking to my hypothesis that the Nightwatcher severed Dalinar's Connection to Evi and her memory. The healing of that wound is just a simple healing, not a counter to the Nightwatcher's magic. The magic was spent in creating the injury, and all the Stormlight did was heal that injury--not challenge the Nightwatcher's power.

We have been told specifically on multiple occasions that investiture resists investiture, in WoBs, and in books. It doesn't even have to be opposing types. 

Mistborn stuff

Spoiler

This is why the mists pulled away from Vin when she wore the earring. Because the mists were of Preservation, and she was spiked by Ruin. 

It's also why it's harder to push on a a metalmind. The more full, the harder it is. 

Dalinar sucked in Stormlight within minutes of bonding the Stormfather. Cosmere healing either heals, or it doesn't. So if the stormlight was going to heal him, it should have done so then. I don't know what is going on, and I want to know, but I don't think it's the Everstorm, because he'd have to have stayed out in it, or Stormlight for the reasons I already stated. 

[The Invested Beard]

4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Can we expect the minds of the Heralds to be fixed similarly to what happened to the parshmen?

That's a very interesting question. I'm assuming no though just because what happened to them as far as we know is different than what happened to the parshendi.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

21 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Dalinar only recently bonded the Stormfather. Offhand, I am unsure of the timeline but I think it has only been 2-3 weeks (10-15 days). I don't think the bond with the Stormfather would immediately wipe out any C-investiture; it would take time due to the C-investiture resisting, no?

I fail to see how not remembering his wife is one of Dalinar's major problems. It was inconvenient at times but I wouldn't label it as a problem, much less a major one. Am I missing something? What issues have cropped up or might crop up due to Dalinar not remembering his wife?

I am not all that great when it comes to the workings of investiture, so I am unable to debate the first part of your post more than I already have. 

When it comes to Dalinars character problems, his curse and boon has been a source of much discussion, his wifes identity has been kept secret for two books, and we can clearly see that his visit to the Nightwatcher haunts him. I would say it is a pretty big issue.