[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Tai'shar-Malkier]

45 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

So did Adolin earn his blade? How? I just assumed he got it from his mom or dad. I thought it was a given  but apparently not -- he dreamed for years for it.

 

I'm pretty sure that Adolin won his sword in a duel. He got the plate from his mother's side of the family

 

46 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

     Ash's eyes  Is this a new saying/curse?  I don't recall hearing it before. Storms, what does it really mean/signify?

 

Shallan has used it before. She used it when first meeting Adolin

[alylime]

I find the continued presence of rare spren with negative connotations interesting. Here, shamespren make a second appearance near Shallan. Previously, Kaladin commented on gloomspren. I'll be keeping my eyes out for other sightings post-everstorm.

[sooyangi]

11 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I'm aware that Kal isn't white. Hes not Parshendi though so he still had no business leading them....you don't have to be white to play the part of white savior.

I am also not a fan of the white savior but I think it's too soon to tell whether or not Kaladin will be the one to lead them. I also think that defending innocents is just part of Kaladin's character and would be more disappointed if Kaladin didn't do anything to help the freed Parshman.

I also don't see why there has to be "one" person leading the freed Parshmen. I can't see why it can't be both Eshonai and Kaladin and/or Radiants. Although, to be honest, I feel like the new freed Parshmen (I don't know what to call them anymore??) are different then their counterparts and I feel like the sense of "belonging" is important for a group of people or culture is important.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Elena said:

i someone figures what is going on and gives her the support she needs

Kaladin maybe? 

Edited September 26, 2017 by SLNC
typo

[The Invested Beard]

13 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I'm aware that Kal isn't white. Hes not Parshendi though so he still had no business leading them....you don't have to be white to play the part of white savior.

Shallash? Herald or Beauty and Patron of Lightweavers? it makes sense that her eyes would be held as significant.....though I thought Ash was anickname used by the heralds and not a common name for her.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole "white savior" thing. I understand that it's a trope, but what you say here is like someone saying "You don't have to be black to play the part of black slave." There's a definite negative connotation as opposed to the idea of fostering empathy between two completely different groups. Just because it's a trope doesn't mean that reaching out across racial lines to understand and empathize with others is some sort of superiority complex.

[king of nowhere]

16 minutes ago, Hischier said:

I don't think that's what @Nymeros was implying. On the other hand, I'm hoping none of that happens, anyway. We already have examples of the Parshendi being a regular (not evil) society and we already have Rlain, Thude and his crew and maybe Eshonai, as (potential) Parshendi good guys. I have zero interest in spending a significant time having Kaladin learn about Parshendi culture, etc. It's a nice twist to have the Parshendi as not all turning to evil monsters by the everstorm, but, well, it's a fantasy book and I want to see Radiant stuff.  Not a commentary on social injustice.  It's hard to do that if there's not a tangible threat at some point. 

The book cover points towards a huge battle somewhere. So you'll get what you want

14 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

OK, so which is worse... A Parshendi like Eshonai coming and leading the freed Parshmen, which is OK just because of race. Or a freed slave returning to help lead an entire people out of slavery. I know which one hits me in the feels. Race shouldn't be the factor that makes a hero - IMO, it shouldn't matter at all. Shared experience and empathy, now...

I'm getting a discriminatory vibe out of the whole "white savior" thing. As in, somebody coming from a position of privilege cannot be a leader of the oppressed. He/she/it cannot selflessly help those people, otherwise it would undermine the message of social equality - equality for those at the bottom of the social ladder, of course; those at the top are contemptible people whose privilege make evil automatically.

Oh, I get that the white savior must have been done a lot with racist connotations, but it's actually the most realistic lead: the downtrodden people doens't have skillls of leadership, or technology, or magic, because nobody taught them, which is part of what kept them downtrodden. It makes sense that they will find very helpful soomeone who knows those stuff and can teach them.

[Musica she/her]

Okay so that's probably not the case, but- is there a chance the author of in-world Oathbringer at the start of each chapter is actually Kaladin? Maybe he writes about siding with the parshmen? The author write about "what he has done, and what those actions cost him"- could he be referring to "joining" the Parshendi- which many people would probably see as a betrayal?

It doesn't sound very much like him, though, so probably not lol

 

Another possibility that comes to mind is Adolin- perhaps talking about killing Sadeas? He isn't a main/center character though, and Sadeas's death is probably nor a big enough thing to become the center of an in-world book..

 

I know I'm reaching here, but Jasnah/Dalinar as the author is just TOO obvious...

 

Also, I have to say that the whole "thanks for comparing women to peasants" line kind of annoyed me. And not in the obvious feminist way, but more because of the elitist, self-important sense I got from it. Then again, maybe I'm just being too sensitive to Shallan' s behavior. 

 

The chapters, especially Kaladin's, felt too short. Pattern was funny as a chaperone, and the Shallan-Adolin interaction was cute. Also, another mention of mating by a spren so soon after the whole Syl-Kaladin conversation makes me feel even more sure that we will see some baby-spren/Plate spren in this book:)

Edited September 26, 2017 by Musica

[Tai'shar-Malkier]

6 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole "white savior" thing. I understand that it's a trope, but what you say here is like someone saying "You don't have to be black to play the part of black slave." There's a definite negative connotation as opposed to the idea of fostering empathy between two completely different groups. Just because it's a trope doesn't mean that reaching out across racial lines to understand and empathize with others is some sort of superiority complex.

I kind of assumed that it was referring to white as in pure/angelic not Caucasian. I could be wrong though

[Elena she/her]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Kaladin maybe? 

I actually meant that in like, a totally platonic way for once, but everything Shallan is better with Kaladin, even if just slightly better  Also, I feel called out

7 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole "white savior" thing. I understand that it's a trope, but what you say here is like someone saying "You don't have to be black to play the part of black slave." There's a definite negative connotation as opposed to the idea of fostering empathy between two completely different groups. Just because it's a trope doesn't mean that reaching out across racial lines to understand and empathize with others is some sort of superiority complex.

Much agreement. I'm reminded of Kaladin's line to Shallan in WOR 'Who will replace Parshmen? Darkeyes?' and I think that now that he's going through his own issues moving through the caste system, his looks actually changing to fit the system he raged so hard against for years... he's probably going to feel a lot for these Parshmen, and it can help him just as he can help them. Brandon has shown himself to be very aware of the real world implications of Roshar society, and I do trust him with this.

[Salkara]

25 minutes ago, Hischier said:

It's a nice twist to have the Parshendi as not all turning to evil monsters by the everstorm, but, well, it's a fantasy book and I want to see Radiant stuff.  Not a commentary on social injustice.  It's hard to do that if there's not a tangible threat at some point. 

You don't think there will be a tangible threat without all listeners going into voidform? We haven't met a living thunderclast yet, and the Unmade can apparently be quite deadly on their own. I think there will be plenty of room in the next 8000 or so pages for both commentary on social injustice and tangible threats. Probably quite a bit of both with a little bit of room left over of love triangles.

[Harbour he/him]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

I feel that this would render Eshonai's existence entirely pointless. If anyone will lead the Parshendi it's her.

If she becomes some sort of wandering radiant Listener champion, then Thude or another can lead them.

I'm not a fan of the "white savior."

While i agree with Eshonai's part i never think about some "white saviour" stuff. I mostly think about how this will create a conflict between Dalinar and Kaladin and develop Kaladin's character. The first one view Parshendi as a potential Voidbringers and the second one, who back then was a slave, will realize that humankind to Parshendi is what light eyes were to dark eyes. He can feel the need to defend those who just want to be free. 

[+Spicker]

28 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Soulcast aluinium is known in roshar; in one of her flashbacks shallan was gifted an aluminium necklace. So if bloacking a shardblade was as simple as using aluminium, someone would have found out already. Like, a guy struck by a shardblade is saved by a bit of jewelry he was wearing.

I don't want to get into the aluminum-blocking-shardblade debate, especially since I am not committed to one or the other. 
And, from this thread it sounds like not even Brandon and Peter are completely sure about it. (Are there any new WoB's that shed more light on this?)

I was simply suggesting there could be something in the stone that interferes with the Shardblades, and aluminum was one possible element.
However, after more thought, I find this less and less likely. There were more than enough opportunities for someone to have noticed that the Blades don't cut the stone. I will give up this idea for now, until I read otherwise.

 

[Sparks]

My pet theory is that the yellow spren warning the Listeners is a Cultivationspren. I like the theory that only full spren can bond with people. If the Everstorm leaves some of the parshmen unbonded each time due to finite voidspren being available, it makes sense that another spren would be able to step in at that point.   

[the_archduke he/him]

36 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

 

I'm getting a discriminatory vibe out of the whole "white savior" thing. As in, somebody coming from a position of privilege cannot be a leader of the oppressed.

Can't be because it never happens or because it should not happen?

Off the top of my head, IRL Moses was a prince of Egypt before leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt.  William Wilberforce was a British MP who dedicated his life to ending the legality of slave trading.  I could go on.

Why is it a problem that a member of a higher social class recognizes injustice and then takes actions to end that injustice?

 

Edit- Just reread your post, and I think we actually agree.  But my response can be read as responding to those you were responding to.

Edited September 26, 2017 by the_archduke

[Aleksiel]

42 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole "white savior" thing. I understand that it's a trope, but what you say here is like someone saying "You don't have to be black to play the part of black slave." There's a definite negative connotation as opposed to the idea of fostering empathy between two completely different groups. Just because it's a trope doesn't mean that reaching out across racial lines to understand and empathize with others is some sort of superiority complex.

I'm not sure if it's connected to race, but more likely to the metaphorical sense, to what white as a color symbolizes in many cultures before it was also turned as some racial thing. People have used the expression before and I want to point out white isn't even a race. Who's white varies among cultures, it's not some static easily defined concept.

[flying_shadow she/her]

2 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

You see, we take the limit of (f(x+h)-f(x))/h as h approaches zero . . .

This was covered in class just a couple of hours ago. Why do you do this to me?

[hypatia she/her]

The Parshendi (in lack of a proper word and because this is what they are at the moment - Parshmen who speak") reminded me of children, imitating the world around them.

Like little children, who write a "letter" for their parents - they copy the motions, but don't have actually the ability.

Perhaps this is the proto/childform of the Listeners?

And yes, I don't think Kaladin will be the right one to lead them, not because of 'white savior',  because of "wrong parent".

They are Listeners and to learn the Rhythms, the culture they need someone who is able to teach them.

I don't want them to become pseudo-humans.

[Aleksiel]

I keep thinking how Pattern says the Cryptics would send another in his place if Shallan kills him and I wonder - why are they so fixated on her? Why not send to bond someone else? Is it even possible to bond another spren while having a dead previous one?

[MrWyndle_ThatsHisName]

I don't think it makes sense for Kaladin to lead the newly awake parshendi, just because what does he know about who the parshendi are or where they came from?

 

Rlain, on the other hand, is very well positioned to step in an teach the newly awakened parshendi about who they are, their origins/ways, etc.

[+Wax he/him]

I am feeling a bit let down.

Just a sec ..?  Can Shallan pull her Airpods from her ears please?  Feeling a bit rough with the wording.

Chapter 13 - Shallan talks to herself and doesn’t put her clothes on when someone knocks at the door.  It’s Adolin and they have some dinner talk with chaperone being Pattern.

chapter 14 - Kaladin looks up and says, “hey strangers”!

chapter 15 - Shallan does sword practice and drawing with Adolin around. Yay!

Is it me or is it really stretching out the big reveal...

At this rate end of book 1 is

Kal starting to move towards Kohlinar or reach its gates.

Shallan deciding she needs to go somewhere... maybe open her own room door.

Dalinar doing flashbacks and still tearing his hair at spanreeds.  Maybe say G’day to Mr T.

Slowwww...

 

 

 

[Hischier]

31 minutes ago, Salkara said:

You don't think there will be a tangible threat without all listeners going into voidform? We haven't met a living thunderclast yet, and the Unmade can apparently be quite deadly on their own. I think there will be plenty of room in the next 8000 or so pages for both commentary on social injustice and tangible threats. Probably quite a bit of both with a little bit of room left over of love triangles.

I don't think all of the listeners need to go into voidform for there to be a threat, but I also don't have an issue with them being the antagonists.  In fact they'd still be very sympathetic characters, because depending on the details of how this works, either it makes their hatred justified, or they're still being enslaved, just now by Odium.  

 

[Darvys]

16 minutes ago, hypatia said:

And yes, I don't think Kaladin will be the right one to lead them, not because of 'white savior',  because of "wrong parent".

They are Listeners and to learn the Rhythms, the culture they need someone who is able to teach them.

I don't want them to become pseudo-humans.

Right now they'll need someone who can stop the human armies from slauthering them on sight, Rlain is the only listener even close to a position to do that, and that only through Kaladin, so ...

[mariapapadia she/her]

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I keep thinking how Pattern says the Cryptics would send another in his place if Shallan kills him and I wonder - why are they so fixated on her? Why not send to bond someone else? Is it even possible to bond another spren while having a dead previous one?

Maybe because she can also Soulcast ? I am sure this was talked about, but I didn't pay enough attention, but can she Soulcast because she is a Radiant or because she has something special to her ? Probably the Cryptics don't want to lose that ? 

Spoiler

In Edgedancer, it was also implied that Wyndle bonded Lift because of his "superiors". I think someone pointed out in the previous pages that some sprens are bonding because of a "group decision" or something like that 

 

[hypatia she/her]

@Darvys

I haven't thought for Kaladin to let them down , he is too Windrunner-y to forget about the Parshendi. 

And I also feel he will see the parallelism to his own cultural problems with the caste system.

He will probably lead them, but to the Listener who survived - Rlain, perhaps Thude, Eshonai, whoever the auther will give them.

 

[Aleksiel]

4 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Maybe because she can also Soulcast ? I am sure this was talked about, but I didn't pay enough attention, but can she Soulcast because she is a Radiant or because she has something special to her ? Probably the Cryptics don't want to lose that ? 

She can soulcast due to her Nahel bond. If she kills Pattern, she wouldn't be able to do it; she had to revive him in WoK before that. Sure, having the soul for a bond is special, but it doesn't explain Pattern's words. There might be something as was in the case you pointed, but so far I don't see what it would be.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Aleksiel