[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Sparkrunner he/him]

Welp

I was born under the sign of the nine

Point for Adolin/Odium;s champion in my book.

[vividox]

49 minutes ago, Goldencompounder said:

In chapter 14, at the end when kaladin surrendered, could that be forshadowing of his next oath. Could it be something like "I will not attack those who cannot protect themselves" or something along the the lines of that.

I very much doubt it. It's just great opportunity to learn more on a subject that, clearly, no one knows anything about. And it's not like he's really putting himself in danger when he's got a Shardblade up his sleeve. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by vividox

[Salkara]

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But they are not working on it. They are avoiding. Playing the happy couple, while they have deep nagging problems.

Atleast in Steris and Wax relationship there was honesty.

I mean, they're not going to work on it right away. We've only seen 15 chapters. It's taken Kaladin around 180 chapters to work out some of his issues. There's still plenty of time for Adolin and Shallan to resolve their deep problems and be honest with each other.

Also, they're not the same people as Wax and Steris. They're not going to deal with their issues in the same way. Wax and Steris are very blunt characters, so being honest works for them. Adolin and Shallan are decidedly less blunt.

[Guest]

You compared them to Wax and Steris...

[kari-no-sugata]

Shallan and Adolin have known each other for about 50 days at this point. I don't remember the timeline of Wax and Steris very well, but I think it was something like 1-2 years before they became genuinely close.

[flying_shadow she/her]

I thought that the scene where Shallan eats dinner with Adolin parallels a scene from one of her flashbacks where she eats dinner with her family and some guests. I don't remember the exact wording, something about good food and good company. Can someone dig up the exact quotes?

[geralt]

Not gonna lie, those Shallan and Adolin's scenes together were just adorable. Personally, I'm starting to think that they actually do suit each other really well, even for the longterm, but I still have my doubts on whether their relationship will actually last. The fact that Shallan has almost been never honest with him is a major issue in my eyes and this whole Brightness Radiant persona definitely won't help.

 

Still, I'm very much excited to see how this will develop

[Dahak he/him]

On 26/09/2017 at 4:57 PM, frozndevl said:

I had this thought earlier, but you nailed it; Pattern is able to figure things out. I think this points out the key difference between Nightblood and the Shardblades. As a robot spren, Nightblood doesn't seem to be able to proceed past his initial programming, whereas the sentient and sapient spren, actually being alive, are able to do so. Nothing has changed, but I think this makes Nightblood, relatively, that much MORE dangerous since he will always be "let's destroy some evil today" while our spren-blades have some conscious thought to them that could halt them. And they (the spren) are able to detect nuance and be more discerning in their work.

How much of that was because Vasher thought Nightblood was a tool that couldn't change verses Szeth who is more treating Nightblood as someone to talk to as an equal.

[Harbour he/him]

Reading Adolin/Sallan scenes i still sense some artificiality in them. In the way Shallan think about Adolin, the way they talk to each other. There is pure joy to read well crafted banter, they share but below the surface there is lack of something that make me feel they love each other. Im sure its Brandon's intention, not just mine random nitpicking.

Maybe its a lack of emotional connection between them. Brandon didn't make their conversation in 13 and 15 chapter any different from their conversations in WoR. Shallan still "melt looking at Adolin's eyes" and think that "it okay that Adolin is who he is". 

[Emerald101 he/him]

Here's the question then. For those of you who think that Shallan and Adolin aren't sharing a real connection, do you think Shalladin is a possibility?

Edit: I'm actually against it, I'm just wondering what people think.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Emerald101
addition

[PunSpren he/him]

I was just ruminating on Kaladin, his propensity for teaching, protecting, and leading t, his Windrunners ability of lots of squires, And the Chapter title of "Squires Cant Capture"

Note; this idea definitely plays off my hope to see Kal protect the helpless awakened Parshmen, and have them become his squires.

My thought for what is going to happen in the next chapters is he is going to travel with them willingly, (we know Kal wont let himself become a prisoner ever again, so his surrender his fully of his choice) I think this pairs well with the chapter title Squires cant capture, the awakened parshmen cant capture him, they cant capture the wind. This in my book, is showing that yes the parshmen are a whole lot more complex, and they are definitely going to become squires. 

Thats my plug, lol, y'all can go back to debating Shallan's love life now

[Erunion he/him]

Shadolin FTW!!!! 

They are incredibly sweet together, and Adolin is amazing here. Working through gender bias? Win. Being incredibly thoughtful? Win. Sharing something he loves sincerely? Win. 

I really do hope they work out. 

(For all the naysayers; they've been together 50 days - cut them some slack!)

However, Brightness Radiant is a concerning coping mechanism, they both have significant closet skeletons that could tear them apart or bring them closer together, and, crucially - 'don't screw this up!' is incredibly worrying from a reader perspective  

My prediction? They screw things up at one point - likely when Adolin gets exiled/exiles himself if/when the murder details come out - but they get back together later on. 

Or one of them dies. Could go either way. 

 

On Kaladin and the Parsh-People? It adds a lot to what I was thinking last week; most are normal Parsh-People (I don't call them listeners yet as we don't know about the rhthyms) but there are a few voidbringers leading/manipulating each major group. 

 

Which brings me to a key theory point and something we should be clear on: Parshendi are not voidbringers. Void-Spren turn things into voidbringers. 

I strongly suspect that voidbringers is the term to use for anything bonded to/possessed by a void-spren. This can include some Parsh-People who are bonded to void-spren, but would also include any bonded humans, thunderclasts, bonded greatshells or other bonded monstrosities. 

Thoughts? 

[Logman]

Was anyone else hoping that Shallan was going to have Pattern form a Shard Pen to work with Adolin?

[Emerald101 he/him]

11 minutes ago, Erunion said:

I strongly suspect that voidbringers is the term to use for anything bonded to/possessed by a void-spren. This can include some Parsh-People who are bonded to void-spren, but would also include any bonded humans, thunderclasts, bonded greatshells or other bonded monstrosities. 

Thoughts? 

I think this is definitely the right way to think of it. The listeners weren't originally of Odium. There is nothing inherently evil or antagonistic about them (even if you want to call Odium evil, which I don't). Things become void-something once they get co-opted by Odium. The stone isn't voidish before some spren animates it into a thunderclast, same thing applies to parshendi and whatever else can be bonded by voidspren.

[Sparkrunner he/him]

A question to @firstRainbowRose about your profile picture...

[Logman]

7 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

That is a very good thought about dead Shardblades... I think that is is actually new. Very good. I like that one. Just, can you bring Stormlight into Shadesmar? And yes, non-shardbearers can go into Shadesmar- worldhoppers do it all the time. I, personally, would like to see Adolin awakens his Shardblade- a tearful scene where he speaks to the half-dead spren would be very sweet (or very sappy), especially if that sets him off on a "quest" to awaken it.

Enjoy this idea, theorizers!

For not all worldhoppers are shardbearers wouldn't they need some control over investiture to enter shadesmar / worldhop? So if Adolin can't use Stormlight would he even be able to get to Shadesmar?

While I'm still unsure, I realized that Fabrials allow people to use Stormlight and soulcast so Adolin should be able to do it.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Its possible Jasnah (or an Elsecaller) could partially take him there. Maybe lightweavers and willshapers could also show a glimpse to non-surgebinders. But too late and too tired to consider in detail if this is possible. So idea without backing.

Edited September 27, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[ReticentBondsmith]

On 9/26/2017 at 7:12 AM, Kalinovsky said:

I wonder if Shallan will continue to be someone else when using the Blade. I think that's a bad idea.

I had the same reaction during that chapter, but by the end of the chapter was feeling better and more confident that she won't have to as much over time, but will choose to be Radiant while using it.

Quote

She let herself be Shallan in some of the moments, but whenever the pain of holding the sword started to spike—whenever she really thought about what she was doing—she was able to become Radiant and avoid it.

I think this shows that she'll slowly get more used to using the blade as Shallan, although I'm guessing Radiant will feel more natural and comfortable using it, so she'll be able to phase between them fairly easily. But I guess we'll find out!

[Starla]

If Shallan begins looking at the details of the murder investigation, I bet Pattern will be able to solve it quickly. I think he would be world's best homicide detective, putting clues together, seeing the relationship between all the parts, finding things that don't fit. He's spren equivalent of Monk.   What if he figures out Adolin killed Sadeas? Does Shallan keep this info to herself or approach Adolin? Wait for him to tell her? It would be interesting to see how she handles it.

[Calderis he/him]

57 minutes ago, Roadwalker said:

A question to @firstRainbowRose about your profile picture...

She's a beta reader and has probably been laughing about that picture for months, while we were all ignorant. 

[Sparkrunner he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

She's a beta reader

Thats it then!

[Kier he/him]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

But they are not working on it. They are avoiding. Playing the happy couple, while they have deep nagging problems.

Atleast in Steris and Wax relationship there was honesty.

Do you tell someone your dating up front everything about you. Yeah I used to Smoke 6 joints a day and have a pre-disposition to Alcoholism. I don't think so. Honesty isn't something that you start off a relationship with. Not that you lie. but they aren't telling each other lies - they are avoiding truths (a lie of omission) but that is not the same as a upfront lie and that isn't saying they can't be honest later. You saying this proves they will never work is like saying someone on a first date who doesn't really like bowling but the date takes them bowling, and that person doesn't say "I don't like Bowling" means that that person is dishonest and will never be honest and the relationship will never work. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She's a beta reader and has probably been laughing about that picture for months, while we were all ignorant. 

here i was thinking it was a coincidence... dont mind me... 

lucky her  it is on my bucket list to beta read a book. Sanderson, preferably.

[Salkara]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

But they are not working on it. They are avoiding. Playing the happy couple, while they have deep nagging problems.

Atleast in Steris and Wax relationship there was honesty.

I mean, eventually they did, yes. But there's like all of Alloy and Shadows where he keeps lying to himself about his feelings for Steris. It took a good two and a half books for them to really click. I'm still in the camp that there's probably time for Shadolin to work things out.

I mean, there's only 15 chapters available out of, what, 122? And this is only book 3 of 10? There's so much time. Exciting breakthroughs and awesome action sequences can't happen every chapter. When everyone is super, nobody is, right? Well, without build up, any possible Shadolin payoff runs the risk of feeling cheap.

[Guest]

I will respond to some of the commentaries I have read today: this is mean to no one in particular because the forum doesn't allow me to quote people from two different pages. It is cumbersome to do so. These are therefore my thoughts on the ongoing conversation.

Adolin and his Attitude

I have seen this one come up a few time, readers wondering how the Adolin we are currently reading correlates with the Adolin was have been reading within the past books. To this I will answer they are both the same character, but what previously was hinted through the narrative was now made obvious. In shorts, one of the description elements I have advanced, in the past, was how much Adolin was actually hiding. There are several moments where he comments on the need to appear confident such as not to worry Renarin or the need to not let his family know he has doubts because they rely on him. It has always seems to me, one aspect of Adolin's character, has been this need, this self-inflicted pressure to be strong, to be steady, to be confident, to be the pillar everyone rests on. This man just does NOT want to break so whenever something bad happens to him, he shoves it inside, forgets about it and keeps on moving forward.

All of this, we could see in WoK and WoR, but it kind of went against how many readers have chose to read Adolin. Thus, for the same reasons I believe many readers have assumed Adolin would react in a specific way after murdering Sadeas. They expected him to be visibly affected, to be depressed, to look guilty or perhaps to turn sneaky. Even I expected him to speak up much faster then he seems to be doing. Those impressions turned out not being entirely accurate because while Adolin is a straight-forward honest guy, his desire to remain this strong impenetrable rock are just stronger. Isn't how Dalinar thinks of Adolin? Steady Adolin?

It is thus when Adolin murders a Highprince, his impulse aren't to admit his guilt because it would mean not being strong anymore, it would admitting failure, it would break the image he thinks he needs to have. Instead, he keeps on focusing on what he can do, on being useful in whichever way is possible, but it does not mean he does not care. We see he cares, we see he is disturbed. We see it within both of his viewpoint chapters and we also see it in his overall reactions. Adolin in OB is WAY more emotional than Adolin in WoK or WoR was. He is very edgy and being very edgy makes him more emotionally reactive to all stimulus, including joy.

Does he care? Of course he cares, he behaves this way because he cares. It is built within Adolin's psychology that his family NEEDS him, they need him ti be forever strong, hence Adolin is trying very hard not to let the murder affect him. And I suspect he will keep on trying up until he reaches the limit of his ability to cope. Everyone has a breaking point, I think we haven't reached Adolin's, but I think we are close as for someone having built an entire persona around the idea of being forever strong, steady and perfect, it demands a lot to overcome it and admit to the opposite. 

To conclude I would say yes, Adolin's attitude is perfectly in line with the character we have been reading. It may however be readers have not catch the clues which highlighted this behavior was coming.

Adolin and Shallan are Still Superficial

Ah I don't get this one, honestly. I understand how devastating it may be for those preferring the Kaladin/Shallan relationship to read those chapters where Adolin and Shallan clearly states they genuinely want to be together. I will however state claiming they remain superficial, they remain only physical and they have no connection is a tad far-fetched. Those chapters showed us book smart Adolin, passionate Adolin and a Shallan who undeniably wanted to pursue a relationship with him. They clicked. They worked. They were happy together, for the right reasons. 

I also read two kids both being deeply afraid they would screw the relationship over, both seemed alarmed at thinking it may not work for reasons out of their control. I mean, when Shallan genuinely, in all honesty says she likes Adolin, she is fond of Adolin, she crushes on Adolin, she may be falling in love with Adolin and lastly she most definitely wants to be with Adolin without any afterthought whatsoever, stating she secretly arbors a deep passion for Kaladin is... a bit of an over-statement at this point in time within the story.

So while yes, making the promise they will not screw it up was a little bit naive, but it was endearing and I hope they will remember.

And yes, Shallan becoming Brigthness Radiant was odd, but she needed it to overcome her block. I didn't read it as her lying to Adolin: Brightness Radiant and Shallan are the same person. She just dissociates her personality into herself, but she remains Shallan. I really do not see this as lying, not anymore than Adolin is lying by pretending nothing ever gets to him. She just needs to be this person to yield Pattern. So while it may be I am wrong, I am not overly worried about it.

I personally found the chapters dealt with a lot of the negative comment their relationships got within WoR. I obviously cannot convince others, but I felt it. I felt two young people slowly, but irrevocably falling in love with each other. It may be they will screw it up, it may be, at some point Shallan will explore things with Kaladin, but those chapters made gave me good vibe for Adolin and Shallan.