[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Oh man, I dread doing this too, but.... one of my thoughts about the potential importance of May Aladar is that Adolin will be "influenced" to marry her in order to tie the Kholin princedom tighter to the Aladar princedom.  Or that Adolin will become close to her in investigating his murder/confessing it to her and thus progress into a relationship with her that will be politically "encouraged".  (Please don't eviscerate me!)

The thought has crossed my mind, so I will not eviscerate you. I will however be a terrible heart-breaking plot point if it were to happen. I will honestly kill Dalinar  is he breaks down Shallan and Adolin to secure a more profitable political alliance.

On the matter of Tropes

On the matter of tropes, while it is true every single story arc can be reduced to its most simple expression, we cannot ignore the impact of identifying one specific element to a given trope or another has on readers. Recognizing a given story element as being the representation of a popular trope does leant to readers to jump onto conclusions as to where the story is headed.

For instance, why did I, when Shallan and Kaladin had their shouting match right before she meets Adolin for the first time, assumed it prelude them becoming an item? Nothing indicated any connection nor positiveness within the altercation and yet my brain identified it as a prevalent trope and concluded their story would necessarily take this path. I did not have similar feelings with the Adolin and Shallan relationship as, even if it too could be reduced to a more simplistic trope, it wasn't one my brain was wired to react to. It wasn't one I had encountered enough to recognize it as a "de facto" predictable outcome.

Thus, while it is true all tropes, even the most prevalent, have the potential to yield innovative and enthralling stories, there is no denying some may have been so over-used the task has become formidable. The best example within the fantasy literacy would be the farm boy with a sword trope. Sure, there are readers who will come forth and say they love the farm boy with a sword trope stating they can't never get enough of it. Sure, it may be an author will manage to write such a good story revolving around this trope readers will forgive it basically is a repetition of a classical story arc. I would however state, as a rule of thumb, it may be a majority of readers will simply not be interested into reading yet another depiction of the same old trope.

This is exactly what is happening with the shipping discussion and why some readers are keen on bringing forth the fact the Kaladin/Shallan relationship is essentially the reproduction of the classic "I hate you, I love you" or the "self-made man with the princess/upper ranked girl" tropes. There is no denying these tropes have been abundantly used within the entertainment industry, be it in movies, series, books and so on. The "dark mysterious grumpy bad boy" is such a strong image viewers/readers have come to expect the female protagonist to necessarily fall for him. On the reverse, the "rich blond boy" image has been associated towards negativeness making him either dumb, boring if not downright evil. Has anyone ever considered the possibility so many readers rooting for evil Adolin may actually come from expectations based on tropes wanting his "good boy" character to turn out evil as those same expectations want Kaladin to be the "good one" despite not looking it? It also goes hand in hand with commentaries where readers claim Adolin is "boring" and "less exciting than Kaladin". These have little basis within the story, the story essentially depicts Adolin as young man having many various interests, a pleasant conversation and an active life full of surprises, yet some readers keep on insisting he necessarily is the most boring of the two men.

Therefore, like it or hate it, the Kaladin and Shallan relationship embodies one very prevalent trope and as such there will always be readers to think it makes it less interesting. For the same reasons other reasons will say Adolin and Shallan aren't interesting because they find them too similar to Wax/Steris or Susebron/Siri. It all depends on one readers's reading experience, personality, tastes and also life trajectory. We aren't all the same and if there are those who cannot stand the Kaladin/Shallan relationship, there are those arguing Brandon "needs to not write another arranged wedding".

In the end what matters to me, as a reader, is what the story is telling us and it is currently telling us Shallan has no feelings towards Kaladin, she isn't thinking about him nor is she harboring some secret passion towards him. She genuinely wants to be with Adolin. Therefore, the idea "stuff might have happened which we haven't read which would account for the existence of feelings the current narrative is denying are even there" is currently a tad far-fetched. It does mean it will not change, it does not mean Kaladin and Shallan won't become a relationship, it merely means the narrative isn't currently pointing towards this direction.

@SLNC: I was somewhat sadden to read your negative depiction of Shallan's character, referring to her as a chronic liar. I felt Shallan has been progressively opening up more and more just as I felt the lies she told, she did it out of necessity. Her life is not simple and blunt truth isn't always the best of option. Still, within the past two books we have seen her tell the truth to Jasnah about her intentions with respect to her soulcaster, the truth about her family situation even if she omitted the fact she killed her father. She told the truth to Dalinar about being a Radiant without being sure she could trust him. She told Adolin about fearing she'll ruin the relationship and she told him about Kasbal. Yes, she hasn't told anyone the full complete story, even Kaladin didn't hear the full complete story, but I have good faith she will, when the time comes tell the truth to Adolin. I do not read the fact she hasn't done so as negative: her fears of screwing the relationship combined with her difficulties in dealing with the past definitely accounts for her actions more than her being a pathological liar.

I thus think you are selling Shallan short in saying she will NEVER tell Adolin the truth, she will ALWAYS lie to him. I think neither Shallan and Adolin are lying to each other: they are merely avoiding talking about particular subjects. I am confident they will get down to it, both of them.

[mariapapadia she/her]

@maxal I really hope you won't get this wrong way and the fact that I am choosing to respond to you doesn't look like an attack or something like that. I hate how one can come across slontzey or mean on the internet  so I hope I don't. 

In regards to saying "the dark and broody"/"love-hate" tropes have been used more than "rich boy falls for one of a kind girl"/"arranged wedding", and you called the Kaladin/Shallan relationship from the beginning, I think it's your personal experience when it comes to the form of entertainment you were exposed to. For someone who has read a lot of garbage chick-lit books, between Chronicles of Narnia and high fantasy, I can say my favourite trope was the "rich boy that can't commit who is super nice&thoughtful and falls for the nerdy/quirky girl" ( i just want to throw up when I read that sentence out loud and remember those times). Why I am admitting this, embarrassing myself ? Because I don't think one can quantify the usage of one trope over the other. Everyone will have biases & preferences and it's ok as long they don't try to push those as facts. I never read forums or opinions online before reading WoR, so until the infamous chasm scene I was sure Adolin and Shallan were set in stone (maybe because I was a bit bias over my favourite trope from my teen years), so I could argue that trope is overused and so on. We would never get anywhere. Both relationships have started with equal cliches as a base and now we see layers upon layers on that base. 

So you, me ore anyone else saying, yes both can be reduced to tropes, but one is more overused than the other is subjective because everyone talks from their own perception as to X is more cliche than Y. 

Likewise for the ones who don't want to see or accept that Adolin/Shallan had some really genuine and nice moments in these last two chapters.

As much as I want, I can't skip all these discussions that come up and I feel like some of them are putting me off when it comes to characters, possible plot development etc  This is why I am trying so much to be Sweden and arguing so that everyone can see how nice and carefree it can be. Sorry if I don't make much sense, my eyes are closing. 

[yulerule]

Regarding the Recreance. We know that the KR learned "some wicked thing of eminence" that caused all but the Skybreakers to break their oaths. It must have been truly terrible, as Syl seems to be Kaladin's best friend/incredibly close companion, and he's known her for less than a year. I can't imagine the friendship between a KR and a spren that have been together for at least decades. I'm pretty sure the spren had to agree - but maybe they didn't tell unbounded spren.

I'm pretty sure we'll (and maybe the characters as well) will eventually  I learn that  secret. However, the result might be different (no second Recreance) as there are two important things to keep in mind. One, it had been thousands of years since the "Last Desolation" and since the Heralds were present. So the KR technically weren't needed for the protection of Roshar anymore (they thought). Two, Honor was still alive. I'm pretty sure there's a WoB around that after Honor was Splintered there were more spren or something. Realmatical on Roshar may have been slightly different pre-approval/and post-Splintering.

So, I'm hopeful that if our modern day characters actually learn the wicked thing of eminence, they will continue fighting, as they are needed and Honor is dead. Whatever Shard-support there was during the Desolations is not available anymore.

[Guest]

@mariapapadia: This is why I said, within my post:  It all depends on one readers's reading experience, personality, tastes and also life trajectory. The trope one reader will find overdone will please another reader. I also mentioned how some readers feel Adolin/Shallan is yet another attempt at Brandon pushing forward an arranged wedding and it displeased them.

The purpose of my post was to explain how tropes we recognize will make us react to proposed story arcs in specific ways. There is a reason why so many readers automatically assumed Kaladin and Shallan would be an item after just the boots scene just as there is a reason why so many readers find Adolin and Shallan adorable. I mean, everyone will read a few farm boy with a sword books before getting tired of the trope, or not: there are those who never tires of it.

I didn't meant to say one reaction was worst than the other: I meant to say the readers stating they find Kaladin and Shallan too trope-y are right, per their referential, but the readers saying Adolin and Shallan are too arranged or part of another trope, per theirs, are also right. Thus stating readers are wrong to bring about the trope arguments to validate their personal feelings is... wrong. It will always matter in how we evaluate the relationships: this is true for me, this is true for other readers as well.

I occasionally read chick-lit too, so not need to be ashamed  I'll admit I don't remember having read many "Adolin-like" characters: men in chick-lit tend to be one-dimensional  or least seemed this way within the books I have read.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Can we all agree we are ready for the Radiant kicking Voidbringer behinds trope? 

 

Im trying my hardest to throw off Exteaian’s percentages but I think it’s a loosing battle. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by StormingTexan
Grammar

[+Extesian he/him]

9 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Can we all agree we are ready for the Radiant kicking Voidbringer behinds trope? 

 

Im trying my hardest to through off Exteaian’s percentages but I think it’s a loosing battle. 

This will spark a debate about the morals of doing it 

 

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Can we all agree we are ready for the Radiant kicking Voidbringer behinds trope? 

 

Im trying my hardest to through off Exteaian’s percentages but I think it’s a loosing battle. 

Nope. I would love to see a massive fakeout where this series ends in diplomacy and understanding between two factions expected to be at war. The groundwork is being set even now. 

Then a third thing can come in that is less sapient and more destructive and the voidbringers and radiants can demolish it.

[kari-no-sugata]

I'd been surprised at how some readers see Shallan and Adolin's relationship. So I thought I'd collect some relevant quotes from chapters 13 and 15...

A comment on some things we don't see: on Shallan's initial meetings with Adolin, she found him so handsome that it would turn her brain to mush. This faded quite quickly as they got deeper into their relationship and they became more relaxed around each other, and I suspect we won't see this again - though we do still see a strong physical attraction. In these chapters there's also not a single line in Shallan's thoughts of the political or financial benefits that would come from marrying Adolin. We did see those in WoR, particularly early in their relationship but there's none of that so far.

 

Quote

She poked her head out, pulling the cloth tight around her neck. “Back of your left thigh, eh? What’s a girl got to do to sneak a glimpse of that?”

“Knock like a man, apparently.”

She gave him a grin. “Just a sec. This dress is being a pain.” She ducked back into the room.

Something simple to start with: Shallan and Adolin exchanging some friendly banter... with Shallan including a hint that she'd like to see more of Adolin.
 

Quote

He chuckled and started a reply, but Shallan, finally dressed, swept back the sheet on her doorway. Adolin stood up from leaning against the wall of the corridor and took her in—frazzled hair, dress that she had missed two buttons on, cheeks flushed. Then he grinned a dopey grin.

Ash’s eyes… he actually thought she was pretty. This wonderful, princely man actually liked being with her. She’d traveled to the ancient city of the Knights Radiant, but compared to Adolin’s affection, all the sights of Urithiru were dun spheres.

Shallan doesn't think of herself as being attractive... but is positively giddy with the thought that Adolin is attracted to her and likes her. Adolin is literally rare and precious to her.

 

Quote

Adolin remained standing. He did look sharp in that blue uniform, though admittedly she’d never really seen him in anything else. Birthmark on the thigh, eh…

You'd think she was a saucy barmaid or something. I wouldn't put it past her to concoct some plan that lets her see more of him.

 

Quote

“Sorry,” she said, opening her eyes. “It wasn’t a lecture, it was a creative application of my tongue to keep you distracted.” Looking at his lips, she could think of some other creative applications for her tongue.…

What's the Rosharian equivalent of a French kiss?
 

Quote

Unable to wait any longer, Shallan dug into her meal. Adolin settled down across from her and attacked his own food. For a time, Shallan ignored her pain and savored the moment—good food, good company, the setting sun casting ruby and topaz light across the mountains and into the room. She felt like drawing this scene, but knew it was the type of moment she couldn’t capture on a page. It wasn’t about content or composition, but the pleasure of living.

The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.

This is a very "ordinary" scene but it brings Shallan a lot of happiness and she wants more of it. But has also learnt from the mistakes of others (eg her father) about not trying to grab things too strongly.

 

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“You worry you’re going to screw it up?” Shallan said, feeling a warmth inside that wasn’t completely due to the wine.

Shallan feels warm and fuzzy knowing that Adolin cares about their relationship.

 

Quote

“Fortunately, I just told it to you. His name was Kabsal, and he was so incredibly sweet to me that I can almost forgive him for trying to kill me.”

Not specifically romantic but a sign of trust.

 

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“No, I’m lauding them,” she said, standing up beside him. “You see, Adolin dear, if you hadn’t wrecked all those other relationships, you wouldn’t be here. With me.” She pulled close. “And so, in reality, you’re the greatest at relationships there ever was. You ruined only the wrong ones, you see.”

Similar to the above but more specifically romantic. She's also making it clear to Adolin that she is not at all bothered by his past relationships.

 

Quote

He leaned down. His breath smelled of spices, his uniform of the crisp, clean starch Dalinar required. His lips touched hers, and her heart fluttered. So warm.

I think this is the first time Adolin has initiated a passionate kiss (he has initiated a kiss before but not a passionate one). Shallan's heart skips a beat.
 

Quote

Adolin bellowed a laugh, and Shallan couldn’t help joining in at the ridiculousness of it. She stepped back from him, but kept hold on his hand. “Neither of us is going to mess this up,” she said to him, squeezing his hand. “Despite what might at times seem like our best efforts otherwise.”

“Promise?” he asked.

“I promise. Let’s look at this notebook of yours and see what it says about our murderer.”

I know a lot of people saw this and thought "ugh, that's foreshadowing the exact opposite" but we don't know what's going to happen at this point. Either way, it's still a spoken commitment to each other. This could be a double foreshadowing - that something is going to go wrong but also that they'll try to overcome it.

 

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He’s going to break off our betrothal! a part of her mind thought, though she pounced on that emotion and shoved it back behind the curtains where it belonged.

The mere thought that their relationship might not work out is painful to her. Given the quote above it, you could say that Shallan is being foolish. It's also unlike her to worry about such things and perhaps this is a sign that Shallan fears such a thing ever happening.
 

Quote

 

He did so. By now he’d removed his jacket, standing in only shirt and trousers. She did like how that tight shirt fit him. Even Radiant would admire that. She wasn’t dead, just pragmatic.

 

Even being "Radiant" can't suppress the saucy barmaid in Shallan.

 

Quote

 

His blue eyes were alight, and Shallan loved seeing that glow from him. Almost like Stormlight. She knew that passion—she’d felt what it was to be alive with interest, to be consumed by something so fully that you lost yourself in the wonder of it. For her it was art, but watching him, she thought that the two of them weren’t so different.

Sharing these moments with him and drinking of his excitement felt special. Intimate. Even more so than their closeness had been earlier in the evening. She let herself be Shallan in some of the moments, but whenever the pain of holding the sword started to spike—whenever she really thought about what she was doing—she was able to become Radiant and avoid it.

She was genuinely reluctant to see the time end, so she let it stretch into the late evening, well past when she should have called a halt. At long last, Shallan bade a tired, sweaty farewell to Adolin and watched him trot down the strata-lined hallway outside, a spring to his step, a lamp in his hands, blade guards held on his shoulder.

 

It's clear that Shallan would prefer to be herself as much as possible during this time. It's extremely painful for her to think of wielding Pattern as a weapon but despite all that, spending this time with Adolin is precious enough for her that she was willing to extend the duration. Putting it another way, with anyone else she would have wanted to end the training sooner rather than later but because it was Adolin she did the exact opposite, despite the pain that came with it from having to wield Pattern as a weapon.

 

In my opinion, Shallan is clearly showing that she is in love with Adolin. She's just not thinking that though. While we don't know the details of Shallan's childhood, she probably hasn't experienced love (either giving or receiving). She had never expected to be able to marry for love either. Maybe this explains why she doesn't diagnose herself as being in love?

[StormingTexan he/him]

9 hours ago, Extesian said:

This will spark a debate about the morals of doing it 

 

Touché 

8 hours ago, Aminar said:

Nope. I would love to see a massive fakeout where this series ends in diplomacy and understanding between two factions expected to be at war. The groundwork is being set even now. 

Then a third thing can come in that is less sapient and more destructive and the voidbringers and radiants can demolish it.

Clearly Brandon is already foreshadowing this as all conflicts will be resolved in a massive card game tournament. The big reveal at the end?? WE WILL FINALLY KNOW IF SQUIRES CAN CAPTURE!!!

[PunSpren he/him]

Brightness Saucy lol @kari-no-sugata

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, PunSpren said:

Brightness Saucy lol @kari-no-sugata

 

Quote

“Oh!” Pattern said suddenly, bursting up from the bowl to hover in the air. “You were talking about mating! I’m to make sure you don’t accidentally mate, as mating is forbidden by human society until you have first performed appropriate rituals! Yes, yes. Mmmm. Dictates of custom require following certain patterns before you copulate. I’ve been studying this!”

I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that it's Shallan herself who's most likely to get the order wrong.

 

Quote

She was genuinely reluctant to see the time end, so she let it stretch into the late evening, well past when she should have called a halt. At long last, Shallan bade a tired, sweaty farewell to Adolin and watched him trot down the strata-lined hallway outside, a spring to his step, a lamp in his hands, blade guards held on his shoulder.

It's probably just as well there was nobody to see this scene: Adolin spends a few hours in Shallan's bedroom and leaves with a spring in his step, while Shallan looks tired and sweaty. Nothing to worry about kids, they were just breaking some deep seated cultural taboos.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'd been surprised at how some readers see Shallan and Adolin's relationship. So I thought I'd collect some relevant quotes from chapters 13 and 15...

I'm surprised as well, but I completely understand the desire to anthropomorphize characters in any fiction.  Some people analyze by looking at what the author actually shows on the page in the scenes he chooses to present to the reader and the thoughts and words the characters say and think, and some people like to search for the meaning behind those scenes, thoughts and words and what they could or may mean and how that will cause the action to play out in the future.  This seems to add to the vastly different viewpoints about the same scene!  Looking at our "love triangle" based on what is shown on the page (in Oathbringer only):

• Shallan and Adolin: They spend time together, Shallan is enjoying it, Shallan thinks she likes Adolin quite a bit.  We don't have an Adolin viewpoint on this in OB (right?)
• Shallan and Kaladin:  Kaladin thinks about Shallan (once that we are shown, alludes to more than that), he doesn't like that he does, he states not a possibility because she is engaged to Adolin and a light eyes.  Shallan rarely thinks about Kaladin, when she does it's pretty schizophrenic (Brightlord once, peasant the other time.)
• Kaladin and Adolin:  Kaladin thinks fondly about how Adolin cares about clothes.  Adolin says how shocking it is Kaladin (i.e. bridgeboy since he doesn't say his name) has a shardblade.  (Digression but this bit makes me SO sad (as a member of Team Kaldolin) that Adolin is reducing Kaladin to the object of "bridgeboy" and "darkeye" versus acknowledging he is a person with a name - I was fine with the derisive "bridgeboy" name when A and K were in their "hatred" stage or later when the "bridgeboy" moniker seemed to be an inside joke between the two, but the use here in not in jest; it seems to be just how Adolin sees Kaladin - an unnamed darkeyed, bridgeboy object who shouldn't have a shardblade except that times have changed, and this after Adolin spent all that time trying to prove to Kaladin he wasn't awful! Here I go with reading so much into a simple bit of prose )

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

55 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Kaladin and Adolin:  Kaladin thinks fondly about how Adolin cares about clothes.  Adolin says how shocking it is Kaladin (i.e. bridgeboy since he doesn't say his name) has a shardblade.  (Digression but this bit makes me SO sad (as a member of Team Kaldolin) that Adolin is reducing Kaladin to the object of "bridgeboy" and "darkeye" versus acknowledging he is a person with a name - I was fine with the derisive "bridgeboy" name when A and K were in their "hatred" stage or later when the "bridgeboy" moniker seemed to be an inside joke between the two, but the use here in not in jest; it seems to be just how Adolin sees Kaladin - an unnamed darkeyed, bridgeboy object who shouldn't have a shardblade except that times have changed, and this after Adolin spent all that time trying to prove to Kaladin he wasn't awful! Here I go with reading so much into a simple bit of prose )

Eh, I'm pretty sure Adolin doesn't think Kaladin shouldn't have a shardblade. He is after all the one that offered him a full set of Shards on WoR before Kaladin showed himself as a Radiant. I think those two just are in a relationship where both will swear up and down that they think the other is lowly/arrogant but inwardly are fond of each other. (Not meant in a romantic way, before anyone starts).

I think their friendship with each other is good for both to get over their respective class prejudices. Adolin never treated darkeyes badly, but he is used to deference and thinks he should rule. Kaladin is a way for him to see there is nothing divine in his rule and to see darkeyes as equals. And Kaladin of course is highly anti-lighteyes, he put Dalinar into a special box from day one. So Adolin is his way of accepting not all lighteyes are evil, and some are even very nice and good people. In a way, also to learn to see lighteyes are equals and not different than anyone else . I even think the reason why Adolin is a good way for Kaladin to get over his prejudice is that Adolin is all that he hated about lighteyes: rich, spoiled, commanding hundreds since he was 16 etc. Which is probably why it took Kaladin so long to accept he respected Adolin nevertheless.

Edited September 29, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Elena she/her]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think those two just are in a relationship where both will swear up and down that they think the other is lowly/arrogant but inwardly are fond of each other. (Not meant in a romantic way, before anyone starts).

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Just now, Elena said:

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

You wouldn't know that from the discussions here ^^.

[kari-no-sugata]

43 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm surprised as well, but I completely understand the desire to anthropomorphize characters in any fiction.  Some people analyze by looking at what the author actually shows on the page in the scenes he chooses to present to the reader and the thoughts and words the characters say and think, and some people like to search for the meaning behind those scenes, thoughts and words and what they could or may mean and how that will cause the action to play out in the future.  This seems to add to the vastly different viewpoints about the same scene!

In my case, if I'm discussing some topic on forums I will often re-read relevant scenes to refresh my memory and to check my that what I'm intending to write matches what's on the page. Sometimes I change my interpretation - there's been a number of times when I started writing a post but then either scrapped it or changes it significantly. It can also be interesting to develop theories and to keep those theories in mind while re-reading particular passages to see if that theory still matches or not.

There can be all sorts of interesting little clues when you look carefully. For books in the SA, Brandon is definitely not going to simply lay everything out plainly to the reader because this is a series targeted at serious readers. In other words, it is better to not just look at what is said, but what is not said, how the characters feel, how well their interpretation of things matches other viewpoints and so on. The downside of this is that things are more open to interpretation even when you do read carefully and more complex - it can be hard to determine how relevant each little bit of information is and how trustworthy it is.

For example, how normal is Adolin acting in these chapters? We don't see Shallan thinking anything suspicious here (unlike when they saw the second murder scene) but we do see Adolin pacing and tossing a bean-bag into the air, yet Shallan often noted how relaxed he seemed to be in WoR. Also, it's unusual for Adolin to privately visit Shallan and not only that he's brought a number of things for her attention. Across all the chapters in general it's clear that Adolin is on-edge about Sadeas and so on but with Shallan he's also reacting to her new status. How much of the changes we see here are a side-effect of him being on-edge and how much because his perception of Shallan has changed a lot? At the moment, it's really hard to say for certain and I for one would really like to see Adolin's viewpoint of a later visit (I'm sure he'll visit Shallan regularly from now on).

Another example: Adolin often downplays his education and intelligence yet we see evidence to the contrary as well. In these latest chapters he invites Shallan to try some men's food. He's never tried to tempt Shallan (or anyone else) into doing such things before that I can remember. Later on, he very nervously invites to train her in sword fighting and specifically references the men's food earlier. In other words, Adolin was worried that Shallan might be offended so tested the waters with something more innocuous first. While his obvious nervousness about broaching the subject gives a different impression, the fact that he planned things out in advance does demonstrate intelligence.

 

Incidentally, one frustration I have with a lot of questions addressed to Brandon is that few deal with these sorts of things. (Not that I dislike more technical discussions, but still...)

 

43 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Looking at our "love triangle" based on what is shown on the page (in Oathbringer only):

• Shallan and Adolin: They spend time together, Shallan is enjoying it, Shallan thinks she likes Adolin quite a bit.  We don't have an Adolin viewpoint on this in OB (right?)

In the brief bits from Adolin's side so far in OB, there hasn't been much of Shallan. Certainly nothing about his feelings about her.

 

43 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

• Shallan and Kaladin:  Kaladin thinks about Shallan (once that we are shown, alludes to more than that), he doesn't like that he does, he states not a possibility because she is engaged to Adolin and a light eyes.  Shallan rarely thinks about Kaladin, when she does it's pretty schizophrenic (Brightlord once, peasant the other time.)

Yep regarding Kaladin. There's definitely hints that he likes her but he's also refusing to consider her that way (for now).

Also yep regarding Shallan. She does tend to draw contrasts in her thoughts and words and also makes frequent use of sarcasm, irony etc.... and also tends to adapt to different situations more strongly than perhaps any other character.

 

43 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

• Kaladin and Adolin:  Kaladin thinks fondly about how Adolin cares about clothes.  Adolin says how shocking it is Kaladin (i.e. bridgeboy since he doesn't say his name) has a shardblade.  (Digression but this bit makes me SO sad (as a member of Team Kaldolin) that Adolin is reducing Kaladin to the object of "bridgeboy" and "darkeye" versus acknowledging he is a person with a name - I was fine with the derisive "bridgeboy" name when A and K were in their "hatred" stage or later when the "bridgeboy" moniker seemed to be an inside joke between the two, but the use here in not in jest; it seems to be just how Adolin sees Kaladin - an unnamed darkeyed, bridgeboy object who shouldn't have a shardblade except that times have changed, and this after Adolin spent all that time trying to prove to Kaladin he wasn't awful! Here I go with reading so much into a simple bit of prose )

It can be really tricky for things like this. Casual racism, sexism etc is not something trivial to be ignored but actions also speak louder than words and it's not like there's a culture of political correctness or the like in this world. It's hard to judge what kind of line Brandon is trying to walk here. For example, some people have dinged Shallan for her darkeyed=peasants comment, which is not unreasonable but then again she was likely being sarcastic and exaggerating for effect as well, and I'm pretty sure Adolin was also doing this. In contrast, when Shallan first meets Palona (Sabriel's darkeyed foreign mistress), Shallan quickly realises all that and also that she is effectively the head of household and gives a her polite greeting - and given the fact that Palona remarks on this it could be suspected that most people are not nearly so polite. I don't remember Shallan ever looking down on Palona for being darkeyed. All together, it makes it difficult to be certain what the "real" answer is.

btw, one thing about Adolin and Kaladin - don't forget that from his POV, Adolin only just recently found out that Kaladin was a Radiant. He might be a bit grumpy about that, particularly since he was suspicious about Kaladin.

[Dreamstorm]

 

53 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Eh, I'm pretty sure Adolin doesn't think Kaladin shouldn't have a shardblade. He is after all the one that offered him a full set of Shards on WoR before Kaladin showed himself as a Radiant. I think those two just are in a relationship where both will swear up and down that they think the other is lowly/arrogant but inwardly are fond of each other. (Not meant in a romantic way, before anyone starts).

I think their friendship with each other is good for both to get over their respective class prejudices. Adolin never treated darkeyes badly, but he is used to deference and thinks he should rule. Kaladin is a way for him to see there is nothing divine in his rule and to see darkeyes as equals. And Kaladin of course is highly anti-lighteyes, he put Dalinar into a special box from day one. So Adolin is his way of accepting not all lighteyes are evil, and some are even very nice and good people. In a way, also to learn to see lighteyes are equals and not different than anyone else . I even think the reason why Adolin is a good way for Kaladin to get over his prejudice is that Adolin is all that he hated about lighteyes: rich, spoiled, commanding hundreds since he was 16 etc. Which is probably why it took Kaladin so long to accept he respected Adolin nevertheless.

I agree with you and get it makes complete sense in-world, but I'm still sad Adolin hasn't progressed from the point where he's objectifying Kaladin to where he can actually see Kaladin as his equal.  I'm just now realizing that those two haven't interacted "on screen" since right before the bridges assassination attempt (I don't count Kaladin coming into the Szeth battle as that wasn't an interpersonal interaction), so I think I expected developments in their relationship equality which weren't warranted from the text.

43 minutes ago, Elena said:

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

I KNOW.  But, I'm not 100% convinced we won't go there.  (99% convinced, but that 1% holds out hope )

Edited September 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Elena she/her]

32 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I KNOW.  But, I'm not 100% convinced we won't go there.  (99% convinced, but that 1% holds out hope )

Or Brandon could just take a leaf from RJ's book and have Shallan pull a Rand al'Thor and marry both. No more of this silly love triangle nonsense.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Shallan and Kaladin:  Kaladin thinks about Shallan (once that we are shown, alludes to more than that), he doesn't like that he does, he states not a possibility because she is engaged to Adolin and a light eyes.  Shallan rarely thinks about Kaladin, when she does it's pretty schizophrenic (Brightlord once, peasant the other time.)

On the same page, she rarely spends a thought on Adolin as well. Yeah, they spend time together, but she doesn't exactly think about him. On the contrary, I might even suggest, that she has thought more about Kaladin (Brightlord Brooding-Eyes for instance or his status reports) than about Adolin in OB so far. The only time she spends a thought on Adolin is, when he's actually in the scene. (i.e. the crime scene, the scene in Dalinar's situation room and her own room) Oh, regarding the peasant thing: I don't think she specifically meant Kaladin, but darkeyes in general. She knows that Kaladin has the same status as her and actually percieves him as a Knight Radiant.

Quote

“I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.”

Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants.

Adolin chose the example, just because Kaladin was a darkeyes, but acknowledges in the same sentence, that he isn't anymore. I think, that Shallans thought is more about Adolins mention of being darkeyed and not because he mentioned Kaladin. In the end, they both are aristocrats with deeply rooted beliefs. Especially about the castes.

But to be fair, there is a lot of book left.

Edited September 29, 2017 by SLNC

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 I think those two just are in a relationship where both will swear up and down that they think the other is lowly/arrogant but inwardly are fond of each other. (Not meant in a romantic way, before anyone starts).

 

4 hours ago, Elena said:

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

 

3 hours ago, Elena said:

Or Brandon could just take a leaf from RJ's book and have Shallan pull a Rand al'Thor and marry both. No more of this silly love triangle nonsense.

Or, you know, all these could happen: kaladin and adolin discover themselves bisexual and form a stable triangle with shallan and each other.

No, I don't think it's ever going to happen, but it certainly would solve every problem

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

36 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

 

 

Or, you know, all these could happen: kaladin and adolin discover themselves bisexual and form a stable triangle with shallan and each other.

No, I don't think it's ever going to happen, but it certainly would solve every problem

I wonder what Brandon would say if he found out those were the conclusions the insane people at the asylum, I mean the 17th Shard!, had reached.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For example, how normal is Adolin acting in these chapters?

Not normal at all. I have been saying since the start Adolin is not behaving like his usual self. Oh, it is subtle, but we see it through the other characters viewpoints: Adolin jumps in surprise from his seat, Adolin is overly awe by the Stormfather, Adolin reacts with stark panic upon seeing the second murder, Adolin is very nervous with Shallan, he paces easily and so on. He is very... edgy and it makes him very emotive, more than usual.

I especially noted how nobody noticed how on edge Adolin is. Dalinar doesn't even notice his son his half-way within a panic attack when he asks him to investigate Sadeas's murder. My thoughts have thus been what people expect to see of you may be the best of disguise: nobody expects Adolin to be anything but strong and perfect.

What will they all thing when the truth comes out? 

[Solant he/him]

On 9/27/2017 at 5:28 PM, Erunion said:

 

I strongly suspect that voidbringers is the term to use for anything bonded to/possessed by a void-spren. This can include some Parsh-People who are bonded to void-spren, but would also include any bonded humans, thunderclasts, bonded greatshells or other bonded monstrosities. 

Thoughts? 

This occurred to me. Maybe it is a Gemheart thing . . .anything with a gemheart can become a voidbringer? Is there a WoB on whether Listeners have them, as the species native to Roshar?

On 9/28/2017 at 9:12 AM, StormingTexan said:

I am really curious if squires can capture if one of your cards are touching your opponents. All these years I have been under the assumption they cannot capture unless your left thumb is on the table and your opponents cup is only half full. 

14 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Touché 

Clearly Brandon is already foreshadowing this as all conflicts will be resolved in a massive card game tournament. The big reveal at the end?? WE WILL FINALLY KNOW IF SQUIRES CAN CAPTURE!!!

I just want to know if they are playing Investiture: The Gathering.

[king of nowhere]

21 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I wonder what Brandon would say if he found out those were the conclusions the insane people at the asylum, I mean the 17th Shard!, had reached.

And that's the least of it: in this thread we have "reached the conclusion" that may aladar is both vivenna and the copycat killer!

[Zennix he/him]

Wrong thread 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Zennix