[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

 

12 hours ago, Bernem said:

@maxal I also was wondering where his mom was in his tutoring. Perhaps he is just talking about the time after she died. Or maybe she just wasn't very engaged in his learning. Navani did say she wasn't very clever, and Navani and Jasnah seem like they would jump at the opportunity to make sure their relatives are "properly educated".

I assumed he referred to period of his life after his mother died, though he was a teenager when she did die. I am surprised nonetheless. Navani states how she could never be close to Dalinar, how she always had to avoid him, so learning she did, in part, raise Adolin (and with Jasnah's help to boot it all) came as a surprise.

 

I think it could have also been be earlier, Dalinar and Gavilar in the earlier years would have been off conquering the other highprinces. Leaving the children and wives home. Adolin was with his father later probably in early teens.  We also do not know if Dalinars wife traveled with him  as other wives do, which could have  have meant Adolin and Renarin would have been under the care of Navani? 

[kari-no-sugata]

Minor side-thought #1: No real rush but I'm a bit disappointed that Shallan hasn't commented on Dalinar saying that the Almighty is dead. Considering that Shallan is consistently religious (including so far in Oathbringer) I'm sure this will come up eventually as I can't imagine that Shallan doesn't care about this. Shallan's personal soldiers (Gaz and all) haven't been mentioned at all yet either.

Minor side-thought #2: Shallan was using Pattern in blade form to bring lots of people to Urithiru. So why is her reaction in chapter 15 so different? It seems obvious enough that there's a difference in knowing that she simply has to quickly use the blade like a key to unlock the Oathgate and knowing she has to use it like a weapon that killed her mother for an extended period. So one interesting thing to see would be whether or not Shallan uses her Brightness Radiant persona going forwards when bringing people to Urithiru. Hopefully she doesn't but she's already thought of being more Radiant-like in public (during her first chapter in Oathbringer) so it wouldn't surprise me if she does.

Minor side-thought #3: I wonder how long until Shallan practices Soulcasting again.

Minor side-thought #4: At the moment, Shallan hasn't specified what specifically she plans to do with Veil. It sounds like she mostly wants to mix it with normal people. If she wanted technical/academic knowledge she would visit the experts surely. She talks about finding answers and my guess is that she'll try to talk to random people to help herself come to terms with killing her mother. It looks like due to Adolin's suggestions that she might try to investigate the murders as well.

[Nymeros]

2 hours ago, Dragos said:

I'm the only one who does not like Adolin's attitude in this chapters?

What I mean is that he just  killed  a Highprince a few days ago and now he is having a date with his girlfrend without any worries. He makes jokes, laughs, makes promises for the future, he even brings his girlfriend notes to help him catch "the murderer". To take responsibility for what he did not even crosses his mind.

This is my first post Sory for my English.

No i agree.

I've said that Adolin has been oddly content and unconcerned for a murderer......He's just shrugging it off like it's no big deal and doing his happy go lucky thing.

There had better be consequences for this guy.

Quote

This is my first post Sory for my English.

Your English is excellent; don't apologize 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

33 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I think it could have also been be earlier, Dalinar and Gavilar in the earlier years would have been off conquering the other highprinces. Leaving the children and wives home. Adolin was with his father later probably in early teens.  We also do not know if Dalinars wife traveled with him  as other wives do, which could have  have meant Adolin and Renarin would have been under the care of Navani? 

I think we found from somewhere that Dalinar took his kids with him on campaigns from early on, as otherwise he wouldn't see them at all. But not sure from how early. They did also say Adolin started training as a warrior when he was six, so could have been since then. 

I don't see any problem with Adolin's behavior. Sadeas was a crem who already took up too much of their time when he was alive, no point in dedicating any more of their time and energy to him while dead. If there had been a legal way of dealing with him I would be singing a different tune. But there wasn't. Brutal societies with people above the law lead to brutal solutions. The end. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No i agree.

I've said that Adolin has been oddly content and unconcerned for a murderer......He's just shrugging it off like it's no big deal and doing his happy go lucky thing.

There had better be consequences for this guy.

I dunno. Seems he was beating himself up pretty heavily about it. At least in earlier chapters. Maybe he is acting differently, but Shallan just doesn't notice it. We're reading from her PoV after all. Shallan has a tendency to be very preoccupied with herself.

[Nymeros]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Seems he was beating himself up pretty heavily about it. 

When did that happen?

[vividox]

18 hours ago, axcellence said:

I am feeling a bit let down.

Just a sec ..?  Can Shallan pull her Airpods from her ears please?  Feeling a bit rough with the wording.

Chapter 13 - Shallan talks to herself and doesn’t put her clothes on when someone knocks at the door.  It’s Adolin and they have some dinner talk with chaperone being Pattern.

chapter 14 - Kaladin looks up and says, “hey strangers”!

chapter 15 - Shallan does sword practice and drawing with Adolin around. Yay!

Is it me or is it really stretching out the big reveal...

At this rate end of book 1 is

Kal starting to move towards Kohlinar or reach its gates.

Shallan deciding she needs to go somewhere... maybe open her own room door.

Dalinar doing flashbacks and still tearing his hair at spanreeds.  Maybe say G’day to Mr T.

Slowwww...

Well, this is the epic series, not the fast paced action series like Wax and Wayne or Reckoners are. Also, reading only three chapters at a time makes it feel even slower. We're not going to get a big plot device every single week reading it this way. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I need exposition already

[Harbour he/him]

I think given who Adolin always was and how he was in the first chapters of OB, his attitude is pretty normal. He never was too responsible.

-He killed the guy who provoke him and treated to kill his family.

-He tried to dive into the work to not think about this. 

-He found out what everyone think about Sadeas death. Everyone are okay with it and even Dalinar didn't spend few chapter to talk about how bad was a killer.

-Yet he distanced himself from everyone.

-Yet the murder still subconsciously bothers Adolin. Just like he tried to beat into Shallan the info about two killers, like he tried to forget about everything teaching Shallan how to use Sharblade. 

I think Adolin attitude was depicted realistically. Pretty sure in the end of OB he'll burst out with confession. It will happen not because he feel himself a bad guy for killing Sadeas. No. It will happen because he isn't a good liar and ultimately pretty soft guy. Lie and secrecy would devour him until he'll confess. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Harbour

[averyp1017 she/her]

On 9/26/2017 at 7:15 AM, Steeldancer said:

How do spren reproduce? 

Do they even? Is it just "we think together and pop comes another spren"

Also what was this about them sending another if pattern dies?!

Also the chapter epigraphs appear to not be helpful 

I may be wrong, but I am fairly sure the storm father creates them all. So no reproduction necessary. 

[Nymeros]

29 minutes ago, vividox said:

Well, this is the epic series, not the fast paced action series like Wax and Wayne or Reckoners are. Also, reading only three chapters at a time makes it feel even slower. We're not going to get a big plot device every single week reading it this way. 

Right, this is exactly what I wanted from this series. These chapters didn't feel slow for me at all and this is the most I've enjoyed Shallan since.the later parts of Way of Kings. These chapters were so........solid.

[Nathrangking he/him]

1st well the everstorm either did not have a 100% conversion rate and Rayse should demand his money back or maybe it is less powerful the more it travels?

2nd As people have noted Shallan's dissociative state is rather odd and disconcerting. She is withdrawing from reality which from a mental standpoint means that she is not coping with the issues that she faces.This could prove rather dangerous down the road especially if "Brightness Radiant" begins to develop a truly distinct personality.

3rd Adolin himself seems to be almost dissociative in his new persona. He seemed ready to tell her about the murder and even tried to hint at it, but instead of confiding the truth in the woman that he loves he instead adopts the mask and identity of the swords master. This may well get worse as the guilt gnaws away at him. It will be interesting to observe how their states interact an possibly clash.

4th All I can say is O pattern you naive little spren.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Cleric of Science]

I have a theory about how (if it can or will happen) Adolin can re-awaken his Shardblade.  

In Chapter 13, Shallan has this thought:

"Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head."

Which got me thinking, what if Adolin actually does visit Shadesmar? Either mentally or fully in the physical, like what Jasnah did to save her life.

If he has his Shardblade with him when he does this, will he see the half-dead representation of his Shardblade and be able to interact with it? What happens when someone who isn't bonded to a spren visits Shadesmar with a half-dead Shardblade? Could you fix them by feeding them Stormlight in Shadesmar? Are there any WoB about non-shardbearers going to Shadesmar?

[SilverTiger she/her]

Just now, Cleric of Science said:

I have a theory about how (if it can or will happen) Adolin can re-awaken his Shardblade.  

In Chapter 13, Shallan has this thought:

"Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head."

Which got me thinking, what if Adolin actually does visit Shadesmar? Either mentally or fully in the physical, like what Jasnah did to save her life.

If he has his Shardblade with him when he does this, will he see the half-dead representation of his Shardblade and be able to interact with it? What happens when someone who isn't bonded to a spren visits Shadesmar with a half-dead Shardblade? Could you fix them by feeding them Stormlight in Shadesmar? Are there any WoB about non-shardbearers going to Shadesmar?

That is a very good thought about dead Shardblades... I think that is is actually new. Very good. I like that one. Just, can you bring Stormlight into Shadesmar? And yes, non-shardbearers can go into Shadesmar- worldhoppers do it all the time. I, personally, would like to see Adolin awakens his Shardblade- a tearful scene where he speaks to the half-dead spren would be very sweet (or very sappy), especially if that sets him off on a "quest" to awaken it.

Enjoy this idea, theorizers!

[+Extesian he/him]

16 minutes ago, Cleric of Science said:

I have a theory about how (if it can or will happen) Adolin can re-awaken his Shardblade.  

In Chapter 13, Shallan has this thought:

"Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head."

Which got me thinking, what if Adolin actually does visit Shadesmar? Either mentally or fully in the physical, like what Jasnah did to save her life.

If he has his Shardblade with him when he does this, will he see the half-dead representation of his Shardblade and be able to interact with it? What happens when someone who isn't bonded to a spren visits Shadesmar with a half-dead Shardblade? Could you fix them by feeding them Stormlight in Shadesmar? Are there any WoB about non-shardbearers going to Shadesmar?

That's some first post! Welcome

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

When did that happen?

He was trying to distract himself with work and stuff. But he did think about it.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

23 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

can you bring Stormlight into Shadesmar?

Jeah, Jasnah did it in WoR prologue.

Or didn't? 

But I am pretty sure, that Hoid used stormlight in Leras-shardpool (Leraspool?), when fighting with Kelsier. So: YES!

Edited September 27, 2017 by NoiseSpren

[kari-no-sugata]

There was some discussion earlier about Shallan and Adolin's romance. I think it's generally going fine and I thought the latest chapters had plenty of positive signals. It would be nice to see the two together from Adolin's POV though. For the most part, I really enjoyed their scenes together in the latest chapters and hope to read more - fortunately, Adolin has a nice excuse to regularly meet and interact with Shallan. Anyway, Shallan is quite relaxed around Adolin and on top of finding him very attractive physically she is increasing attracted to him emotionally/mentally. Putting it another way, I see clear progress since WoR and Shallan clearly likes Adolin as a person. I would say she loves him but that is highly subjective. If you compare this to how Dalinar feels for Navani, it doesn't feel all that different to me.

However, love isn't a binary thing and there is still room for it to become deeper and wider.

Of course, there's also scope for things to become worse. In fact, this seems highly likely as both Adolin and Shallan have skeletons in their respective closets. That could destroy their romance depending upon how events unfold and how they deal with it but it could also deepen it eventually if they open up to each other more.

[Mulk he/him]

Maybe the "don't mess this up" stuff is foreshadowing and maybe it's a red herring.  Won't know which till the end.  Not that this should stop the theorizing mind you...

I find their relationship to be pretty much exactly on par for the first serious relationship either has had.  Yeah yeah, Adolin has dated half the camp but the way he changes women is rather legendary and while he has liked all of them, I rather doubt he ever looked at anyone the way he does Shallan.  I rather doubt either of them knows what love actually is, but neither does anyone who really falls in love for the first time.  They are cute and sweet, and yeah, they have a lot of hangups and issues, but those things, for these two, seem like they will mesh pretty well.  They have both murdered, both have hidden it, both want the relationship to work, both are smart, both are fascinated with each other, both are full of passion and admire each other...it's a decent list for a new couple.

The main reason it may not work is newly in love people are notoriously bad at understanding what love actually is.  It's not that feeling of attraction and magnetism, it's the commitment of the will to care for and seek the best for someone; and the real kicker is that real love is independent of whether and how well they respond.  It has to be, or no marriage would ever survive as we all have times where we do not love our S.O well.  That core misunderstanding is why most people don't really grasp what committed, unending love is until they have children, and also why they tend to love their kids more than their spouses - they don't realize that in their vows they promised all of those things with no qualifiers.  It's not to have and to hold if you do, in sickness and health if you do...it's just the vow.

I'll be fine if they end up together and fine if they don't - at this point either track is eminently believable, and can be interesting assuming Brandon gives it the time it deserves (and I believe he will).

With respect to Adolin - he seems to be attempting to lose himself in the things he loves most to avoid thinking about the murder he committed.  So I don't find him carefree, I find him to be burying himself in things to keep from freaking out.  He nearly lost control when his father gave him the investigation.  Eventually he will confess and I won't be surprised if it is to Shallan first.  He doesn't have the...hm.  I guess the temperament or whatever to handle keeping that kind of thing a secret.  He's an outgoing, honest young man and this (hiding a crime) is unlike anything he's done or had to do.  While I don't have a crime in my past to point to, I have been the same way after traumatic events in my life - I dive into whatever keeps me from thinking.

Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is Brandon does a fantastic job of writing believable people.  They react like real people do, and it's not neat and organized as people are messy and unpredictable.

[Goldencompounder]

In chapter 14, at the end when kaladin surrendered, could that be forshadowing of his next oath. Could it be something like "I will not attack those who cannot protect themselves" or something along the the lines of that.

[dionysus]

6 hours ago, Dragos said:

 

I'm the only one who does not like Adolin's attitude in this chapters?

What I mean is that he just  killed  a Highprince a few days ago and now he is having a date with his girlfrend without any worries. He makes jokes, laughs, makes promises for the future, he even brings his girlfriend notes to help him catch "the murderer". To take responsibility for what he did not even crosses his mind.

 We had enough chapters with Adolin in them, and we did not see any moment when he was worried about the effects of the crime on those around him : his father, his brother, his girlfriend who barely became radiant, his cousin, the king, all in very instable situations right now, all in a lot of trouble if his murder is discovered. 

Sadeas was a evil person, he deserves to die, we as readers know that, because we have "a god-like perspective"- we know a lot of the thinghs he did, but pople in that world dont (they probably suspect some things, they've heard rumors or they can use their brains to understand what's going on- but there's no proof). That murder, if discovered, will be seen as the way Dalinar has escaped his greatest rival, killing him "in a dark alley" without being seen by anyone, while preaching to other "unity" and respect for "the codes" (.will destroy what dalinar is trying to accomplish).

Adolin does not understand that? He does not care? I was expecting to see Adolin full of worries, depressed, trying to find a solution, a way to fix things- maybe recognizing the crime and facing the consequences, but but there's no sign of it. Instead he laughs and makes jokes with his girlfriend. And no, it is not his way to deal with what he did, is just normal Adolin.

It seems very wrong to me

 

This is my first post Sory for my English.

Sadeas deserved to die. Even without the readers knowledge, it is common knowledge in the Kholin camp that Sadeas backstabbed them and tried to destroy an entire army of allies, led by people who were his former friends, just so he could accumulate power for himself. Also, highprinces are more like kings bowing to a high king. They are above almost any law, and it seems like though Elhokar may have some power to punish a highprince this power has never been used and everyone is fearful that if the king exerts too much power Alethkar will fracture again.

On top of that, Adolin is used to dealing out death. He is a shardbearer who has killed hundreds of Parshendi and at least tens if not hundreds of humans. And what he does is a slaughter, not a fight between equal opponents. He has had years to get used to killing people. Personally, I think this is why he focuses on dueling, at least there it is between two semi-equal opponents. I think it is perfectly in character to not worry about the murder from that angle.

Finally, Adolin has been trained to be a highprince from birth, in essence a king. He knows how to put on an act and hide his true feelings. The people who know him best do say he is a bad liar, but that is a limited group of people and they catch some things but not all.

I am personally glad that Adolin is introspective in that scene with the ryshadium, but is continuing on with his normal duties and interactions.

[Steeldancer he/him]

11 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Maybe the "don't mess this up" stuff is foreshadowing and maybe it's a red herring.  Won't know which till the end.  Not that this should stop the theorizing mind you...

I find their relationship to be pretty much exactly on par for the first serious relationship either has had.  Yeah yeah, Adolin has dated half the camp but the way he changes women is rather legendary and while he has liked all of them, I rather doubt he ever looked at anyone the way he does Shallan.  I rather doubt either of them knows what love actually is, but neither does anyone who really falls in love for the first time.  They are cute and sweet, and yeah, they have a lot of hangups and issues, but those things, for these two, seem like they will mesh pretty well.  They have both murdered, both have hidden it, both want the relationship to work, both are smart, both are fascinated with each other, both are full of passion and admire each other...it's a decent list for a new couple.

The main reason it may not work is newly in love people are notoriously bad at understanding what love actually is.  It's not that feeling of attraction and magnetism, it's the commitment of the will to care for and seek the best for someone; and the real kicker is that real love is independent of whether and how well they respond.  It has to be, or no marriage would ever survive as we all have times where we do not love our S.O well.  That core misunderstanding is why most people don't really grasp what committed, unending love is until they have children, and also why they tend to love their kids more than their spouses - they don't realize that in their vows they promised all of those things with no qualifiers.  It's not to have and to hold if you do, in sickness and health if you do...it's just the vow.

I'll be fine if they end up together and fine if they don't - at this point either track is eminently believable, and can be interesting assuming Brandon gives it the time it deserves (and I believe he will).

With respect to Adolin - he seems to be attempting to lose himself in the things he loves most to avoid thinking about the murder he committed.  So I don't find him carefree, I find him to be burying himself in things to keep from freaking out.  He nearly lost control when his father gave him the investigation.  Eventually he will confess and I won't be surprised if it is to Shallan first.  He doesn't have the...hm.  I guess the temperament or whatever to handle keeping that kind of thing a secret.  He's an outgoing, honest young man and this (hiding a crime) is unlike anything he's done or had to do.  While I don't have a crime in my past to point to, I have been the same way after traumatic events in my life - I dive into whatever keeps me from thinking.

Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is Brandon does a fantastic job of writing believable people.  They react like real people do, and it's not neat and organized as people are messy and unpredictable.

Nice post

[kari-no-sugata]

7 minutes ago, Mulk said:

With respect to Adolin - he seems to be attempting to lose himself in the things he loves most to avoid thinking about the murder he committed.  So I don't find him carefree, I find him to be burying himself in things to keep from freaking out.  He nearly lost control when his father gave him the investigation.

One thing I noticed is that in this chapter he was tossing a bean-bag (?) into the air repeatedly. I don't remember him doing that before and it seems to me that this was a way to keep his mind occupied. I guess we'll never know what he would have done differently in times like this if he'd never killed Sadeas but I'm guessing he wouldn't have been tossing that bean-bag and perhaps a number of other things. He's actively giving himself various things to do and probably the last thing he wants to do is to sit around in his room doing nothing much. I bet he slept well that night, like Shallan.

They're both getting emotional support from their interactions, though neither of them realise that this is the case for both of them.

[Salkara]

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

Because it is an empty promise. How should they mess up something, that isn't already there. Does anyone really get the feeling of love between Adolin and Shallan? Affection, definitely, but not love. There is not enough trust between them. No feeling of unconditionality.

Maybe this is part of the message Brandon is trying to get across. Too often we read novels where a couple meets, something just "clicks," and they live happily ever after. Maybe he's making the point that a relationship built on affection and hard work is equally as valuable as one founded in an innate romantic attraction.

Think of it similar to Wax and Steris. Wax has said multiple times that he doesn't "love" Steris, but look what a great couple they've turned into.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Maybe this is part of the message Brandon is trying to get across. Too often we read novels where a couple meets, something just "clicks," and they live happily ever after. Maybe he's making the point that a relationship built on affection and hard work is equally as valuable as one founded in an innate romantic attraction.

 

But they are not working on it. They are avoiding. Playing the happy couple, while they have deep nagging problems.

Atleast in Steris and Wax relationship there was honesty.

Edited September 27, 2017 by SLNC