[OB] Implications of Peeping Spren

[Yezrien]

Chapters 10-12 were released today, and everyone's talking about the big comedy moment: the image of Syl watching Kaladin have sex.

Yes, the peeping spren is indeed hilarious. But it's also so much more. I think Brandon may have just dropped some epic foreshadowing, disguised as an innocuous joke. 

Spren do not respect closed doors.

Spren are usually invisible to most people.

Radiants are popping up all over Roshar, so sapient spren are about to be almost as common as regular spren.

Conclusion? There is no more privacy on Roshar. Every single private conversation and covert activity is vulnerable to spyspren. No secret is safe. The Sleepless are nothing compared to spyspren. 

We've already seen Pattern used this way, but any Radiant spren should be able to do the same. And it's too big an advantage not to use. In fact, I'm a little disappointed that Shallan hasn't shared this technique with Dalinar and the others. It would probably be a big help in the murder investigation.

Speaking of which... Adolin did a bad thing at the end of WoR, and he doesn't think there were any witnesses. Same for the copycat killer. (Assuming Adolin himself isn't the copycat killer.) But there could always be a spyspren.

And what about voidspren? What if Odium has little eyes and ears all over the place, and no one can see them?

[redbishop]

I like the theory.  Implications are clear for KR spren, and it goes beyond that.  Syl read that Ardent's mind, although it appeared to be surface thoughts.

Quote

She sighed, grinning stupidly.

“Oh!” Syl said, still on the ardent’s shoulder. “She thinks you’re pretty!”

Is that limited in scope?  Are honorspren only interested in snooping on coupling-related items, an Cryptics only on elimination?  Since intimate relationships are related to pair-bonding, I can see a correlation.  Same with elimination - perhaps on Roshar, they tell the same lies about "freshening up" and "powdering ones' nose."

As for Odium, I think it depends on agency.  I can't find it, but I feel like I've seen a WoB that not even all of the unmade are at the sapience-level of KRSpren, and that seems like it would be needed to usefully employ this tactic.

[Snipexe]

Wow... just wow. This is way creepy, but also extremely likely. Could you counter it by sealing yourself in an aluminum room?

[king of nowhere]

First of all, I see them less as peeping and more as exploring. they all seem curious about the world and the humans, so why not sex?

And it's not like humans haven't done whacky things in the name of knowledge. One scientist once got a couple of contorsionists to have sex into a nuclear resonance machine, so he could see what their internal organs were doing. A scientific divulgation magazine once put together a few thousand singles in what was basically a mass blind date to get statistical data on dating. Being a scientist myself, I cannot but approve. FOR SCIENCE!

Second, syl seemed at times to actually be flirting. I wonder if spren become more and more humanlike to the point of becoming potential romantic partners for their radiants. Or for each other. It may have all kind of implications.

[+robardin]

How far can the spren range from their bonded person and retain intelligence?

Syl mentioned she was "less herself" the farther she went from Kaladin, when she went to get a blackbane leaf for him just as he was considering leaping into Honor Chasm. His bond with Syl is now much stronger, with much more personality, so one could assume she could range farther, too.

What about if he summons her as a Sylblade when she's peeping over in the next shack? Is there a delay as her physical form has to travel back, or do spren effectively Elsecall when summoned while doing something autonomous, going from Physical to Cognitive and then back to the Physical Realms?

[kari-no-sugata]

I'm a bit surprised that people are only considering the privacy implications of spren now. After all, we had Pattern blatantly looking at Shallan in the bath in WoR (and not just Shallan). I'm sure that it had at least occurred to Shallan that she might be seen in far more private situations...

With regards to using spren in general for spying, I think only true spren would be useful and they're quite rare it seems. I don't think we'll see organised large scale spying.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

What about if he summons her as a Sylblade when she's peeping over in the next shack? Is there a delay as her physical form has to travel back, or do spren effectively Elsecall when summoned while doing something autonomous, going from Physical to Cognitive and then back to the Physical Realms?

The connection to the Spren is spiritual, so the summoning should be instantaneous. We've already been told that deadblades that are lent to a soldier can be summoned back by their owner and there's no additional time than the 10 seconds. I don't see any reason for a live blade to be inhibited more than the dead. 

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm a bit surprised that people are only considering the privacy implications of spren now. After all, we had Pattern blatantly looking at Shallan in the bath in WoR (and not just Shallan). I'm sure that it had at least occurred to Shallan that she might be seen in far more private situations...

With regards to using spren in general for spying, I think only true spren would be useful and they're quite rare it seems. I don't think we'll see organised large scale spying.

Yeah. Kal used Syl to spy on Gaz in the first book. 

But Sapient spren are not becoming all that common. There will never be more than say, 100,000 radiants(and that is generously high). With a world to cover they're unlikely to be able to reasonably spy on much of anything.

[Toaster Retribution]

17 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

One scientist once got a couple of contorsionists to have sex into a nuclear resonance machine, so he could see what their internal organs were doing. 

This is seriously wierd.

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I wonder if spren become more and more humanlike to the point of becoming potential romantic partners for their radiants. Or for each other. It may have all kind of implications.

What if Shallan married Adolin but Syl and Pattern got together? Problems...

[CaptainRyan]

22 hours ago, redbishop said:

Syl read that Ardent's mind, although it appeared to be surface thoughts.

Sorry if you were making a joke but, just in case you are not, Syl did not, as far as I can tell, read the Ardent's thoughts. She simply made a guess based on context clues; similar to when Kaladin was selling knobweed to the apothecary. 

[+ElephantEarwax]

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm a bit surprised that people are only considering the privacy implications of spren now. After all, we had Pattern blatantly looking at Shallan in the bath in WoR (and not just Shallan). I'm sure that it had at least occurred to Shallan that she might be seen in far more private situations...

With regards to using spren in general for spying, I think only true spren would be useful and they're quite rare it seems. I don't think we'll see organised large scale spying.

That and he said he watched Sebarial bathe.

[Emerald101]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The connection to the Spren is spiritual, so the summoning should be instantaneous. We've already been told that deadblades that are lent to a soldier can be summoned back by their owner and there's no additional time than the 10 seconds. I don't see any reason for a live blade to be inhibited more than the dead. 

Except in WoR, when Kaladin asks Syl about her not needing ten seconds she responds, "Not as long as I'm here with you" or something similar, implying that it would be different if she weren't there.

[AluminumGnat]

I'm kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned the Purelake vision where Dalinar is explicitly hunting a spying spren. The implications of this vision are huge for several reasons, particularly in that spying spren can be detected. The other big question is how. Can a Radiant's spren see the spys? Or is there some variation on an alerter fabrial that works for spren? 

[Djarskublar]

Another consideration, long term wise, is that once all this Desolation silliness is over, it'll be people spying on other people, who could potentially have spren of their own that can more easily peep out the spies. I'd say it's not a large scale, Big Brother type threat, and also pretty limited. The people we have seen use it so far have pretty much had free reign to do so, but that won't always be the case.

Also, if you want privacy, make a Blade, and stick it in the dirt outside. Just keep up the mental command to keep it that way. No more peeping spren. (assuming that actually works, of course)

[Blacksmithki]

8 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Another consideration, long term wise, is that once all this Desolation silliness is over, it'll be people spying on other people, who could potentially have spren of their own that can more easily peep out the spies. I'd say it's not a large scale, Big Brother type threat, and also pretty limited. The people we have seen use it so far have pretty much had free reign to do so, but that won't always be the case.

Also, if you want privacy, make a Blade, and stick it in the dirt outside. Just keep up the mental command to keep it that way. No more peeping spren. (assuming that actually works, of course)

To part one, this is applicable if the radiants stay organized and choose to spy on the general population, and to part two, since Kaladin seem to telepathically communicate with blade form syl at the end of WoR this would make the issue worse not better.

[Djarskublar]

8 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

To part one, this is applicable if the radiants stay organized and choose to spy on the general population, and to part two, since Kaladin seem to telepathically communicate with blade form syl at the end of WoR this would make the issue worse not better.

Staying organized is practically a given. On the other hand, there is absolutely zero chance of them collectively organizing a spy network. Some of the spren and/or humans will object to it morally, and the orders aren't even that cohesive in the first place. There was infighting with the old Radiants. I see no reason why there wouldn't be at least some in the future. Opposing people, Orders, and entire factions will almost certainly be a thing.

[Elena]

Another consideration is that Syl specifically mentions people locking their doors, 'but there's always space under it'. That to me sounds like the more bonded spren remain in the physical realm the more they become, to an extent, subject to actual law of physics. If this is true for all spren, it puts some limits on what a spren can see - they can't go though walls, for example. That is of course assuming that Syl being unable to go through solid materials (such as doors) is a general law and isn't just due to how Syl perceives her abilities and limitations, much like why Kaladin still has his scars.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Elena said:

Another consideration is that Syl specifically mentions people locking their doors, 'but there's always space under it'. That to me sounds like the more bonded spren remain in the physical realm the more they become, to an extent, subject to actual law of physics. If this is true for all spren, it puts some limits on what a spren can see - they can't go though walls, for example. That is of course assuming that Syl being unable to go through solid materials (such as doors) is a general law and isn't just due to how Syl perceives her abilities and limitations, much like why Kaladin still has his scars.

This. Not only do the Nahel Spren become more physical as the bond strengthens, but physical barriers have a Cognitive element as well due to the perception of them as well, barriers. 

Quote

Questioner

A dullform listener is indoors when the Everstorm passes over, will they be transformed into a Voidform?

Brandon Sanderson

No. It depends on the strength of the boundary between them, but it is possible for them-- And also being transformed, taking new forms is-- There is a measure of will behind it, meaning-- For instance, even when Eshonai took the new form, she had herself open to taking a new form. By the time she didn't want to, it was too late. But she had made the decision, even though she'd been kind of misled in some ways. If a parshmen were in-- even in the Everstorm, and aggressively didn't want this to happen, I'm not saying it won't, but I'm saying there is room for discussion of whether or not they would change there. But also one who does want to, and is-- there's only a little pane of glass and things like that, then-- Yeah.

The same reasoning behind this WoB applies to spren and walls/locked doors. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Calderis