[OB] The Heralds: Obsessed with the Divine Attributes

[Argent]

Oh, hello there. Didn't see you amidst all the Oathbringer hype in the air. Please, make yourself comfortable, pour yourself a glass of wine (one cup of the orange, then stick to the yellow; don't even look at the violet, can't have you get drunk in my post!), and read on...

Almost four years ago (storms! It's been this long?) I put together a theory I called The Fallen Heralds - which, to be fair, was less of a theory and more of a summary of some things some people within the community had already kind of agreed to at the time. But in it, I posited that all of the Heralds (except for Taln) have turned into "twisted versions of themselves. Not polar opposites, but their divine attributes have become... perversed". Well, it's been a few years since then, we've seen the release of Words of Radiance, Edgedancer, and several Oathbringer preview chapters (and readings), and I've been feeling the need to revise the original theory a little bit, especially in recent months. Well, I was hanging out with @Zmann966 today, and we were talking about all things Brandon (as we do), and the conversation steered towards the Heralds, and I felt the final (for now) pieces of my four year old theory click into place. Let me present it to you. 

The Theory

Over the course of their incredibly long lifetime, all of the Heralds who chose to abandon the Oathpact after the Aharietiam, Last Desolation, have grown obsessed with what Vorinism calls the Divine Attributes. As we all know from the Ars Arcanum at the end of The Way of Kings, much of the philosophy and culture of Vorinism revolves around the idea of the Ten Essences, which ancient Rosharan scholars also associated with the ten Orders of the Knights Radiants and the ten Heralds. Each Herald (and each Order, but we are interested in only the Heralds right now) then became associated with two Divine Attributes – Jezrien was known to be Protecting / Leading, for example. I now posit that, for reason I will touch on a little later, each one of the surviving Heralds has also become obsessed with the Divine Attributes he or she is supposed to embody. They have, in one way or another, become the living embodiments, the avatars, of the traits they once merely stood for. 

The Heralds We Know

So, what evidence do we have for this theory? Precious little, but not as little as you might think. 

Nalan

Nale, commonly known as Nalan, Herald of Justice, embodies the Just / Confident Divine Attributes. He is one of the very few Heralds we see “on screen”, and the image we see of him is one of a relentless pursuer of those who break the law. I probably don’t need to spend much time convincing you, dear reader, that Nin-son-God has grown obsessed with the concept of justice, nor do I need to do anything but direct you to the chapters he shows up in to present him as somebody who is utterly confident in himself. He had to search 40 years back to find Ym's crime (either that, or his backlog of crimes is really long...). He believes that "justice does not expire" and that "justice waits upon no man or woman." During every moment he is on screen, he projects utter and unshakeable confidence. When confronted by Lift about his pursuit of her specifically, instead of other, bigger criminals, he explains that "Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world."

All of these practically scream confidence and pursuit of justice, perhaps with a small hint at why. An argument can be made about Nalan’s obsession arising from his desire to prevent another Desolation (whether that is because he is afraid it might mean the reinforcement of the Oathpact, or simply because he doesn’t want to see the world end) leads to him focusing on what he is (just and confident), but I don’t know if that’s a productive discussion to have.

Shalash

Shalash, known as the Herald of Beauty (also known as Ash) was supposed to embody the Creative / Honest Divine Attributes, and also happens to be a Herald we know we have seen – she is Baxil’s mistress from his interlude. We don’t know as much about her as we do about Nalan, but we very strongly suspect that she is methodically destroying art, likely art that depicts her. What we do know is that in the interlude she slashes a painting of “Epan, Lady of Dreams” (who may be a character inspired by her). She also does not approve of stealing, and destroys a statue, though Baxil doesn’t note of whom. Finally, she also muses that getting herself a Shardblade (so she can be more effective at destroying the statue) would almost make it too easy.

Outside of this interlude, Vorin culture seems to suggest she has a temperament (Sadeas cites his “Shalashian temperament” to Dalinar as the reason he gave up his post of Highprince of Information). Chapter 55: An Emerald Broam’s epigraph also refers to her as a woman who “sits and scratches out her own eyes” – which is the primary reason we believe she destroys art of herself specifically. At the night of Gavilar’s assassination Szeth also notes that Shalash’s statue is the only one missing among all the Heralds, which many feel points to her being in the palace recently.

So why would someone who is supposed to embody creativity and honesty sneak around destroying art? Well, to me Shalash embodies the other way one can obsessed with something. Where Nalan leans heavily on his sense of justice and confidence, Shalash goes the other way – she becomes the antithesis of creativity, and – one might argue – honesty, as she sneaks in the night like a thief. Zmann966 suggests it is for a different reason – he thinks she destroys art because she feels people are not being creative enough, considering that they’ve (likely) been depicting her the same way for thousands of years; and so her destruction of art is her way of forcing people to be creative. You could also see her actions as honest then, as she not only does all this work herself, she also refuses to make it “too easy” by acquiring a Shardblade – honest labor, and all that.

Either way, I think there is a solid argument that she is obsessed with at least creativity – one way or another.
 

Pailiah

The final confirmed Herald is Pailiah, sometimes known as Pali – the Herald who embodies the Learned / Giving Divine Attributes. She was recently confirmed to be the ardent Shallan sees in the Palanaeum when she searches for a copy of Shadows Remembered – you know, the one Shallan thinks that “Lit that way—with her figure hidden but the light streaming between the shelves—it looked as if one of the Heralds themselves were walking through the stacks.”

Even less is known about Pailiah than the other two Heralds we looked into, but besides her Divine Attributes, she also seems to be known for her mind – as evidence by Adrotagia invoking “Pali’s mind” in Taravangian’s interlude of Words of Radiance, and maaaybe Adolin thinking that “Pailiah knew, this wasn’t the time to offend the Almighty” (though I wouldn't read too much into that one). But she certainty could fit the theory we’ve been building so far – she is now an ardent, people known to give themselves to causes that are not their own, and she serves in the Palanaeum, the largest repository of knowledge on Roshar. It’s impossible to tell whether she is obsessed with those attributes at the moment, but she definitely could be.

The Heralds We Don't Know

Okay, we talked about the Heralds we’ve definitely seen on page, but those of you familiar with the scientific method know that the strength of a theory is measured by its predictive power – a theory that only explains what we know is just a hypothesis. So let’s look into the Heralds we haven’t officially confirmed and see if they can possibly fit the bill.

Jezrien

Jezrien’s Divine Attributes are Protecting / Leading, so if he has grown obsessed with these we would expect to see him either zealously protecting everyone he can while assuming sole leadership of whatever group he is in, or completely abandoning the people around him, not caring about protecting (or possibly even harming them) or leading them.

The only somewhat decent candidate we have for Jezrien is the drunk – or addled – beggar Szeth briefly meets in the Kholinar palace, the one that hangs out near the Heralds’ statues and asks Szeth whether he has seen him. Flimsy evidence at best, I agree, but it could at least fit the theory if Jezrien has gone more the Shalash route, where he now manifests traits opposite to his Divine Attributes. As a beggar who is either drunk or insane, he is certainly in no position of responsibility. He is not protecting anyone, and he is certainly not leading anyone. Is he obsessed with his... carelessness, let's say? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to tell whether he is always like this (which, to me, would suggest obsession or addiction), or if just made use of the free booze at the feast just that one time.

Zmann966 once again disagrees with me on this – or at least entertains a different line of thinking. To him, the Shin society as a whole and the Stone Shamanate specifically speak strongly of Jezrien’s Divine Attributes. They do seem overly protective of their beliefs and culture, and they are obviously leading the Shin people. Jezrien could fit into this as a high-ranking member of the Shamanate, or perhaps even its leader (if they have one). It would also allow him to manifest his Protecting attribute, as he would be de facto in charge of protecting Shinnovar, and perhaps more importantly, the Honorblades. It could also make Jezrien the one to give Szeth his (and, in a beautiful turn of phrase, “his” here can refer to either one of them!), which feels like a nice wink from Brandon.

The other possible interpretation I came up with, assuming Jezrien exhibits the extreme versions of his attributes, is someone who leads and protects people regardless of their desires – someone who, for example, throws people in prison “for their own protection” or leads armies in a way and to places they don’t want to be led. But this version has even less supporting evidence than the others, as we haven’t really seen anyone like this, so I won't spend any time on it.

Chana

Chanarach, the embodiment of the Brave / Obedient Divine Attributes, is unfortunately one of those Heralds we know virtually nothing about. She seems to be associated with strength, as evidenced by Dalinar thinking that “Chana help the man or woman who stood between Navani and one of her own” and Navani saying (on an unrelated occasion) the following about Jasnah: “Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her” (but like Adolin's "Pailiah knew", maybe don't read too much into this one). Now, I know some people are already boarding the “Navani is Chana” train, but this is not a train I am willing to ride. She is also referenced in Hoid's story about Fleet, where he Fleet races Chanarach and wins, but I don't think that has any relevance to the theory, other than to maybe enhance our "strength" association with "speed," maybe give physicality to her nature as a Herald.

This section of the post is about predicting, however, so let’s do a little bit of that. What would Chana be like if she has become obsessed with her Divine Attributes? 

On one end, we’d have someone who is likely extremely brave, but also extremely obedient. There are other possible interpretations – she could be someone who values bravery and obedience in others to the extreme, but I feel like the Heralds’ obsessions, their personal insanities, are more, well, personal. So if she was someone very brave and obedient, I feel like a position of, essentially, a bodyguard would fit her well. Someone who is willing, even eager, to throw herself at danger, but also someone who puts themselves under the control of another. I wouldn’t be surprised if she ended up being the Rosharan equivalent of a berserker.

On the other end, we have someone who is cowardly, but also independent or controlling – to the extreme. The image of a queen comes to mind – a queen who listens to no one, but also one who is terrified all the time. I thought briefly of Aesudan, Elhokar’s wife, but I personally doubt it. 

So I’ll say we don’t have a good candidate for Chana.

Vedel

The Herald patron of the Edgedancers is one we know even less about than we do about Chana! Other her “golden keys” being featured in an oath once, and Taln’s mantra claiming that she would train the surgeons, we don’t know anything else about her. Her Divine Attributes – Loving / Healing – certainly fit Taln’s words, but that’s about it. So where would she be with those attributes turned up to eleven?

Well, if she follows Nalan’s method to madness, she would be someone who loves unreasonably deeply, and also devotes herself to healing. Some people like one of Taravangian’s nurses for Vedel, but while I can’t discount that possibility, I don’t support the idea.

The other extreme, where Vedel’s love has turned to hate, and her healing has turned to harming is, admittedly, far more interesting – and terrifying – to me. I don’t think we have a good candidate for this version of her either, but it would definitely paint her in some very dark tones.

Battar

Also known as Battah to Vorinism, Battar was supposed to be Wise / Careful. Unfortunately, neither her “positive” extreme nor her “negative” one (foolish and careless) are very telling or very interesting to me, so I’ll just go ahead and move on.

Kalak

The Resolute / Builder Divine Attributes of Kalak, combined with the one somewhat decent candidate for him that we have – Nalan’s companion from the Words of Radiance prologue – might make him worth looking into for a bit. If the man Jasnah overhears speaking with Nalan is, in fact, Kalak, then we can see that him being, essentially, a giant wimp who panics and worries about everything, could be a result of his resolute attribute turning into something like indecisiveness. Which is not an obsession, it's more akin to my original theory where the Heralds' Divine Attributes had turned into their opposites (I wasn't focusing on obsessions then). I can’t really see him showing the corrupted version of his other trait either, as he is not particularly… destructive in that scene, so I won’t dwell too much on him. If anything, this theory has made me like Nalan’s companion for Kalak even less (though I admit it is difficult to discard his casual mention of Ash, and his “we weren’t supposed to get worse” line; maybe he will end up being evidence against my theory). So Kalak is a weird data point right now.

Ishar

Ah, Ishar. The Herald who practically made me rewrite this theory.

Let’s just get it out – I am now convinced Ishar is the Tukari god-priest Tezim. Granted, there was already evidence that something was not quite right with the man, and some members within the community already liked him for Ishar, but still. Mraize is suspicious of him: “This creature in Tukar, however, is different. I’m not convinced he is human. If he is, he’s certainly not of the local species…” Edgedancer tells us that “there were all sorts of wild rumors about [the god-king of the Tukari]”. More recently, Chapter 8: A Powerful Lie of the Oathbringer previews, tell us that “[Tezim] claims he’s an aspect of the Almighty” – which alone would be pretty interesting, but the thing that pushed me over the edge on that particular bit of the theory were Ishar’s Divine Attributes – Pious / Guiding. Because who could be more pious and guiding than somebody who a god-priest-king?! Seriously. That's like Nalan assuming the title of Confident Judge, or Jezrien calling himself Protective Leader!

He obviously does some more guiding – specifically, he seems to direct Nalan on his quest for justice – but I honestly feel that’s secondary at this point. Plus, this theory has already broken the 2,500-word mark, and I imagine you are as tired of reading it, as I am of writing it, so we won’t quote and dwell any further.

Conclusion

First of all, I should apologize for misleading you. I said early in this post that I will address the reasons why the Heralds have become the way they are today, and that kind of implied that I will do so in this post. Unfortunately, while that was my intention, I realize that it would not only add significant length to the theory, it would also distract from what I think of as its focus. I’ll put another post up, hopefully soon, where I’ll speculate about this (and other related things), but for now I think we’ve all had enough of me running my mouth. 

So.

What do you think? Do you feel compelled that all of the Heralds who have been, presumably, hanging out on Roshar for the past 4,500 years are now… not insane, though Brandon has used that term, but… obsessed? Specifically, with their Divine Attributes, whether it is in a way that turns them into avatars of said attributes (almost like tiny Shards, you might say), or of antitheses of them? 

Let me know*. Let’s all be wrong together before Oathbringer shows up and shatters all our theories.

*God, this feels like such a YouTube thing to say. "Let me know in the comments below, and don't forget to like and subscribe!"...
 

 

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Argent said:

He obviously does some more guiding – specifically, he seems to direct Nalan on his quest for justice – but I honestly feel that’s secondary at this point. Plus, this theory has already broken the 2,500-word mark, and I imagine you are as tired of reading it, as I am of writing it, so we won’t quote and dwell any further.

Nooooooo, More Line ! More Line !

Anyway I find your recap of the Heralds' reference and status really good. I would add a couple of possibilities for some Heralds' locations but it's really tangential to the topic.

My idea about the Reasons for their "madness" could be a bit out of the main comunity's one.

I believe their "madness" isn't really connected with the Oathpact. But rather it's a simply result of their status of Cognitive Shadows.

For this I will considerate a Cognitive Shadow (and therefore an Herald) as some Human-spren and we know the Cognitive Entities are influenced by the how is viewed.

How will a Cognitive Shadow react after been exposed for thousand of years to the Vorin's belief ? I think it will chance them from people....to stereotypes.

The Spren are the same, they are extreme in their view of the world.
PS: I will add something to this post later because now I could not remain at the PC

EDIT:
I think the same thing will happen with all the CS over the time and this is the reason some of them we know try to have a low profile or be not around the places where they are well knowed

Edited September 17, 2017 by Yata

[QuantumHarmonix]

This makes me wonder if the Honorblades have "intents" that correspond to the Divine Attributes. They would then slowly pull the holder towards an interpretation of that intent in the same way that we've seen with Shards. I thought that at some point we'd been told that the Honorblades were splinters, but I can't find the reference. If they are splinters then they would have intents. My only pause is that Healing doesn't seem like it would be an intent from Honor. Have we ever learned if Cultivation put anything in to the creation of the Honorblades or the Oathpack? If she did, then that might explain those intents that seem like they would come from a splinter of her. If even parts of this are true, then we could expect the obsession focus of some Heralds. They have been under the influence of that intent for such a long period of time that they should have been pulled pretty far. It could even explain the twisted interpretations if they have been trying to reject the intent strongly enough for so long as well. 

[Calderis]

The Prelude hints that the Heralds were already breaking mentally before walking away from the Oathpact. 

Combined with this WoB.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1181#19

Quote

CCQ

Did Ishar intentionally deceive Nalan or does Ishar have bad info that he passed on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes and no. All of the heralds are insane.

CCQ

So I clarified the question to being did Ishar know that he was lying to Nalan

BRANDON SANDERSON

got a RAFO but he added something that seemed to mean that Ishar could perhaps see the future and that each insanity was unique and that uniqueness played a part in the info. Not really sure on the last part.

I agree with the theory except for it's exception of Taln. 

I think Taln is just as broken, if not more so, as the others. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm not sure if there is a pattern to their insanity. Each of them could have gone mad their own way, as they all had reasons to do so. 4500 years walking around, always hiding who and what they are, never living normal lifes (as becoming a farmer and raising a family would be a bit of an issue when their family dies and they are same as always), always lying to those around them, unable to leave Roshar (probably). Then add in that they betrayed Taln, and turned their backs on their Oaths to Honor. All of them had incredible pressures without even counting anything supernatural. That been said, I do believe there is something supernatural in their madness, just maybe it is not the only reason for why they all are bonkers. Think WoT, Rand didn't just go mad because of the taint, his situation pushed him along.

However, I like the theory that their supernatural issues are related to their Divine Attributes (DA?), it fits with many of them. But I'm still not sure there is an absolute pattern to how they go insane over their attributes. 

[Steeldancer]

6 hours ago, Argent said:

Oh, hello there. Didn't see you amidst all the Oathbringer hype in the air. Please, make yourself comfortable, pour yourself a glass of wine (one cup of the orange, then stick to the yellow; don't even look at the violet, can't have you get drunk in my post!), and read on...

Almost four years ago (storms! It's been this long?) I put together a theory I called The Fallen Heralds - which, to be fair, was less of a theory and more of a summary of some things some people within the community had already kind of agreed to at the time. But in it, I posited that all of the Heralds (except for Taln) have turned into "twisted versions of themselves. Not polar opposites, but their divine attributes have become... perversed". Well, it's been a few years since then, we've seen the release of Words of Radiance, Edgedancer, and several Oathbringer preview chapters (and readings), and I've been feeling the need to revise the original theory a little bit, especially in recent months. Well, I was hanging out with @Zmann966 today, and we were talking about all things Brandon (as we do), and the conversation steered towards the Heralds, and I felt the final (for now) pieces of my four year old theory click into place. Let me present it to you. 

The Theory

Over the course of their incredibly long lifetime, all of the Heralds who chose to abandon the Oathpact after the Aharietiam, Last Desolation, have grown obsessed with what Vorinism calls the Divine Attributes. As we all know from the Ars Arcanum at the end of The Way of Kings, much of the philosophy and culture of Vorinism revolves around the idea of the Ten Essences, which ancient Rosharan scholars also associated with the ten Orders of the Knights Radiants and the ten Heralds. Each Herald (and each Order, but we are interested in only the Heralds right now) then became associated with two Divine Attributes – Jezrien was known to be Protecting / Leading, for example. I now posit that, for reason I will touch on a little later, each one of the surviving Heralds has also become obsessed with the Divine Attributes he or she is supposed to embody. They have, in one way or another, become the living embodiments, the avatars, of the traits they once merely stood for. 

The Heralds We Know

So, what evidence do we have for this theory? Precious little, but not as little as you might think. 

Nalan

Nale, commonly known as Nalan, Herald of Justice, embodies the Just / Confident Divine Attributes. He is one of the very few Heralds we see “on screen”, and the image we see of him is one of a relentless pursuer of those who break the law. I probably don’t need to spend much time convincing you, dear reader, that Nin-son-God has grown obsessed with the concept of justice, nor do I need to do anything but direct you to the chapters he shows up in to present him as somebody who is utterly confident in himself. He had to search 40 years back to find Ym's crime (either that, or his backlog of crimes is really long...). He believes that "justice does not expire" and that "justice waits upon no man or woman." During every moment he is on screen, he projects utter and unshakeable confidence. When confronted by Lift about his pursuit of her specifically, instead of other, bigger criminals, he explains that "Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world."

All of these practically scream confidence and pursuit of justice, perhaps with a small hint at why. An argument can be made about Nalan’s obsession arising from his desire to prevent another Desolation (whether that is because he is afraid it might mean the reinforcement of the Oathpact, or simply because he doesn’t want to see the world end) leads to him focusing on what he is (just and confident), but I don’t know if that’s a productive discussion to have.

Shalash

Shalash, known as the Herald of Beauty (also known as Ash) was supposed to embody the Creative / Honest Divine Attributes, and also happens to be a Herald we know we have seen – she is Baxil’s mistress from his interlude. We don’t know as much about her as we do about Nalan, but we very strongly suspect that she is methodically destroying art, likely art that depicts her. What we do know is that in the interlude she slashes a painting of “Epan, Lady of Dreams” (who may be a character inspired by her). She also does not approve of stealing, and destroys a statue, though Baxil doesn’t note of whom. Finally, she also muses that getting herself a Shardblade (so she can be more effective at destroying the statue) would almost make it too easy.

Outside of this interlude, Vorin culture seems to suggest she has a temperament (Sadeas cites his “Shalashian temperament” to Dalinar as the reason he gave up his post of Highprince of Information). Chapter 55: An Emerald Broam’s epigraph also refers to her as a woman who “sits and scratches out her own eyes” – which is the primary reason we believe she destroys art of herself specifically. At the night of Gavilar’s assassination Szeth also notes that Shalash’s statue is the only one missing among all the Heralds, which many feel points to her being in the palace recently.

So why would someone who is supposed to embody creativity and honesty sneak around destroying art? Well, to me Shalash embodies the other way one can obsessed with something. Where Nalan leans heavily on his sense of justice and confidence, Shalash goes the other way – she becomes the antithesis of creativity, and – one might argue – honesty, as she sneaks in the night like a thief. Zmann966 suggests it is for a different reason – he thinks she destroys art because she feels people are not being creative enough, considering that they’ve (likely) been depicting her the same way for thousands of years; and so her destruction of art is her way of forcing people to be creative. You could also see her actions as honest then, as she not only does all this work herself, she also refuses to make it “too easy” by acquiring a Shardblade – honest labor, and all that.

Either way, I think there is a solid argument that she is obsessed with at least creativity – one way or another.
 

Pailiah

The final confirmed Herald is Pailiah, sometimes known as Pali – the Herald who embodies the Learned / Giving Divine Attributes. She was recently confirmed to be the ardent Shallan sees in the Palanaeum when she searches for a copy of Shadows Remembered – you know, the one Shallan thinks that “Lit that way—with her figure hidden but the light streaming between the shelves—it looked as if one of the Heralds themselves were walking through the stacks.”

Even less is known about Pailiah than the other two Heralds we looked into, but besides her Divine Attributes, she also seems to be known for her mind – as evidence by Adrotagia invoking “Pali’s mind” in Taravangian’s interlude of Words of Radiance, and maaaybe Adolin thinking that “Pailiah knew, this wasn’t the time to offend the Almighty” (though I wouldn't read too much into that one). But she certainty could fit the theory we’ve been building so far – she is now an ardent, people known to give themselves to causes that are not their own, and she serves in the Palanaeum, the largest repository of knowledge on Roshar. It’s impossible to tell whether she is obsessed with those attributes at the moment, but she definitely could be.

The Heralds We Don't Know

Okay, we talked about the Heralds we’ve definitely seen on page, but those of you familiar with the scientific method know that the strength of a theory is measured by its predictive power – a theory that only explains what we know is just a hypothesis. So let’s look into the Heralds we haven’t officially confirmed and see if they can possibly fit the bill.

Jezrien

Jezrien’s Divine Attributes are Protecting / Leading, so if he has grown obsessed with these we would expect to see him either zealously protecting everyone he can while assuming sole leadership of whatever group he is in, or completely abandoning the people around him, not caring about protecting (or possibly even harming them) or leading them.

The only somewhat decent candidate we have for Jezrien is the drunk – or addled – beggar Szeth briefly meets in the Kholinar palace, the one that hangs out near the Heralds’ statues and asks Szeth whether he has seen him. Flimsy evidence at best, I agree, but it could at least fit the theory if Jezrien has gone more the Shalash route, where he now manifests traits opposite to his Divine Attributes. As a beggar who is either drunk or insane, he is certainly in no position of responsibility. He is not protecting anyone, and he is certainly not leading anyone. Is he obsessed with his... carelessness, let's say? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to tell whether he is always like this (which, to me, would suggest obsession or addiction), or if just made use of the free booze at the feast just that one time.

Zmann966 once again disagrees with me on this – or at least entertains a different line of thinking. To him, the Shin society as a whole and the Stone Shamanate specifically speak strongly of Jezrien’s Divine Attributes. They do seem overly protective of their beliefs and culture, and they are obviously leading the Shin people. Jezrien could fit into this as a high-ranking member of the Shamanate, or perhaps even its leader (if they have one). It would also allow him to manifest his Protecting attribute, as he would be de facto in charge of protecting Shinnovar, and perhaps more importantly, the Honorblades. It could also make Jezrien the one to give Szeth his (and, in a beautiful turn of phrase, “his” here can refer to either one of them!), which feels like a nice wink from Brandon.

The other possible interpretation I came up with, assuming Jezrien exhibits the extreme versions of his attributes, is someone who leads and protects people regardless of their desires – someone who, for example, throws people in prison “for their own protection” or leads armies in a way and to places they don’t want to be led. But this version has even less supporting evidence than the others, as we haven’t really seen anyone like this, so I won't spend any time on it.

Chana

Chanarach, the embodiment of the Brave / Obedient Divine Attributes, is unfortunately one of those Heralds we know virtually nothing about. She seems to be associated with strength, as evidenced by Dalinar thinking that “Chana help the man or woman who stood between Navani and one of her own” and Navani saying (on an unrelated occasion) the following about Jasnah: “Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her” (but like Adolin's "Pailiah knew", maybe don't read too much into this one). Now, I know some people are already boarding the “Navani is Chana” train, but this is not a train I am willing to ride. She is also referenced in Hoid's story about Fleet, where he Fleet races Chanarach and wins, but I don't think that has any relevance to the theory, other than to maybe enhance our "strength" association with "speed," maybe give physicality to her nature as a Herald.

This section of the post is about predicting, however, so let’s do a little bit of that. What would Chana be like if she has become obsessed with her Divine Attributes? 

On one end, we’d have someone who is likely extremely brave, but also extremely obedient. There are other possible interpretations – she could be someone who values bravery and obedience in others to the extreme, but I feel like the Heralds’ obsessions, their personal insanities, are more, well, personal. So if she was someone very brave and obedient, I feel like a position of, essentially, a bodyguard would fit her well. Someone who is willing, even eager, to throw herself at danger, but also someone who puts themselves under the control of another. I wouldn’t be surprised if she ended up being the Rosharan equivalent of a berserker.

On the other end, we have someone who is cowardly, but also independent or controlling – to the extreme. The image of a queen comes to mind – a queen who listens to no one, but also one who is terrified all the time. I thought briefly of Aesudan, Elhokar’s wife, but I personally doubt it. 

So I’ll say we don’t have a good candidate for Chana.

Vedel

The Herald patron of the Edgedancers is one we know even less about than we do about Chana! Other her “golden keys” being featured in an oath once, and Taln’s mantra claiming that she would train the surgeons, we don’t know anything else about her. Her Divine Attributes – Loving / Healing – certainly fit Taln’s words, but that’s about it. So where would she be with those attributes turned up to eleven?

Well, if she follows Nalan’s method to madness, she would be someone who loves unreasonably deeply, and also devotes herself to healing. Some people like one of Taravangian’s nurses for Vedel, but while I can’t discount that possibility, I don’t support the idea.

The other extreme, where Vedel’s love has turned to hate, and her healing has turned to harming is, admittedly, far more interesting – and terrifying – to me. I don’t think we have a good candidate for this version of her either, but it would definitely paint her in some very dark tones.

Battar

Also known as Battah to Vorinism, Battar was supposed to be Wise / Careful. Unfortunately, neither her “positive” extreme nor her “negative” one (foolish and careless) are very telling or very interesting to me, so I’ll just go ahead and move on.

Kalak

The Resolute / Builder Divine Attributes of Kalak, combined with the one somewhat decent candidate for him that we have – Nalan’s companion from the Words of Radiance prologue – might make him worth looking into for a bit. If the man Jasnah overhears speaking with Nalan is, in fact, Kalak, then we can see that him being, essentially, a giant wimp who panics and worries about everything, could be a result of his resolute attribute turning into something like indecisiveness. Which is not an obsession, it's more akin to my original theory where the Heralds' Divine Attributes had turned into their opposites (I wasn't focusing on obsessions then). I can’t really see him showing the corrupted version of his other trait either, as he is not particularly… destructive in that scene, so I won’t dwell too much on him. If anything, this theory has made me like Nalan’s companion for Kalak even less (though I admit it is difficult to discard his casual mention of Ash, and his “we weren’t supposed to get worse” line; maybe he will end up being evidence against my theory). So Kalak is a weird data point right now.

Ishar

Ah, Ishar. The Herald who practically made me rewrite this theory.

Let’s just get it out – I am now convinced Ishar is the Tukari god-priest Tezim. Granted, there was already evidence that something was not quite right with the man, and some members within the community already liked him for Ishar, but still. Mraize is suspicious of him: “This creature in Tukar, however, is different. I’m not convinced he is human. If he is, he’s certainly not of the local species…” Edgedancer tells us that “there were all sorts of wild rumors about [the god-king of the Tukari]”. More recently, Chapter 8: A Powerful Lie of the Oathbringer previews, tell us that “[Tezim] claims he’s an aspect of the Almighty” – which alone would be pretty interesting, but the thing that pushed me over the edge on that particular bit of the theory were Ishar’s Divine Attributes – Pious / Guiding. Because who could be more pious and guiding than somebody who a god-priest-king?! Seriously. That's like Nalan assuming the title of Confident Judge, or Jezrien calling himself Protective Leader!

He obviously does some more guiding – specifically, he seems to direct Nalan on his quest for justice – but I honestly feel that’s secondary at this point. Plus, this theory has already broken the 2,500-word mark, and I imagine you are as tired of reading it, as I am of writing it, so we won’t quote and dwell any further.

Conclusion

First of all, I should apologize for misleading you. I said early in this post that I will address the reasons why the Heralds have become the way they are today, and that kind of implied that I will do so in this post. Unfortunately, while that was my intention, I realize that it would not only add significant length to the theory, it would also distract from what I think of as its focus. I’ll put another post up, hopefully soon, where I’ll speculate about this (and other related things), but for now I think we’ve all had enough of me running my mouth. 

So.

What do you think? Do you feel compelled that all of the Heralds who have been, presumably, hanging out on Roshar for the past 4,500 years are now… not insane, though Brandon has used that term, but… obsessed? Specifically, with their Divine Attributes, whether it is in a way that turns them into avatars of said attributes (almost like tiny Shards, you might say), or of antitheses of them? 

Let me know*. Let’s all be wrong together before Oathbringer shows up and shatters all our theories.

*God, this feels like such a YouTube thing to say. "Let me know in the comments below, and don't forget to like and subscribe!"...
 

 

Um...

Please refer to my I found Chana and ishar topic in my signature.

My evidence points to Liss being chana. And i have another candidate for Ishar. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Steeldancer

[Argent]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

I believe their "madness" isn't really connected with the Oathpact. But rather it's a simply result of their status of Cognitive Shadows.

Funny you should say that, I happen to think similarly  Though there is more to it.

45 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

I thought that at some point we'd been told that the Honorblades were splinters

Not Splinters in the traditional sense - they are pieces of Honor's soul, which we understand to mean Honor's investiture made physical. Tanavastium, as it were.

7 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Please refer to my I found Chana and ishar topic in my signature.

I just did, and I have to disagree. The chapter headers are not only metaphorical, they are metadata about the chapters. If they are the only thing we relied on, we'd be looking for random Heralds in every chapter. 

[QuantumHarmonix]

1 minute ago, Argent said:

52 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

I thought that at some point we'd been told that the Honorblades were splinters

Not Splinters in the traditional sense - they are pieces of Honor's soul, which we understand to mean Honor's investiture made physical. Tanavastium, as it were.

Wouldn't that still mean that they should have intents? I have no idea what would happen when an intent is interpreted by someone that went insane. That could be the cause of the discrepancy between the heralds that seem to be obsessed with their attribute and those that seem to have taken a polar opposite interpretation. 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

Wouldn't that still mean that they should have intents? I have no idea what would happen when an intent is interpreted by someone that went insane. That could be the cause of the discrepancy between the heralds that seem to be obsessed with their attribute and those that seem to have taken a polar opposite interpretation. 

This is flawed thinking. 

Other then Nale (and Taln), who recovered his Blade, the Heralds all walked away from their Blades. They are not bonded to a Splinter of Honor any longer. If their insanity has grown worse since breaking the Oathpact, and what little evidence we have says they have, then it is not because of the blades. 

[Steeldancer]

7 minutes ago, Argent said:

Funny you should say that, I happen to think similarly  Though there is more to it.

Not Splinters in the traditional sense - they are pieces of Honor's soul, which we understand to mean Honor's investiture made physical. Tanavastium, as it were.

I just did, and I have to disagree. The chapter headers are not only metaphorical, they are metadata about the chapters. If they are the only thing we relied on, we'd be looking for random Heralds in every chapter. 

I'm going to argue my case a bit here. I feel I have a stronger case for Chana, so I'll argue her right now. 

There was a WoB that said all 10 Heralds were mentioned or seen in WoK. I could account for 9, each but Chana. Finding the exclamation "Dustmother" fulfilled that WoB. Then, there was a WoP that said that a character had met Chana in the WoK or WoR. I searched the entire book of WoK, looking for that Renarin thing and Chana. I found neither. I did similar with WoR, and the strongest Chana candidate I found was Liss. There are other possibilities I listed in the thread, but I'm just not thrilled by those candidates. 

Ishar, I'm less sure of. I think there is a strong possibility that Ishar is the ardent. Not every chapter where a Herald picture is shown features a Herald within, but each time a Herald shows up, their picture is invariably in the chapter heading. Im not a fan of the Tezim theory, just because by WoB they're all from Roshar, and Mraize says that Tezim isn't of the local species. 

[QuantumHarmonix]

Just now, Calderis said:

This is flawed thinking. 

Other then Nale (and Taln), who recovered his Blade, the Heralds all walked away from their Blades. They are not bonded to a Splinter of Honor any longer. If their insanity has grown worse since breaking the Oathpact, and what little evidence we have says they have, then it is not because of the blades. 

Do we know that putting down the blade broke their link to it? I know they aren't like the bonds between spren and knights and they seemed to think that putting down the blades would work, but I'd always figured there was more to the connection than just who is physically holding the blade. Especially since I can't think of another reason for them to have lived so long. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

Do we know that putting down the blade broke their link to it? I know they aren't like the bonds between spren and knights and they seemed to think that putting down the blades would work, but I'd always figured there was more to the connection than just who is physically holding the blade. Especially since I can't think of another reason for them to have lived so long. 

They are Cognitive Shadows. Their original bodies are long dead. If they were still bonded to the blades, they could summon them at any time and Nale would not have had to "recover" his.

I think that they are still connected to the Oathpact, but the blades are no longer theirs. 

[QuantumHarmonix]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They are Cognitive Shadows. Their original bodies are long dead. If they were still bonded to the blades, they could summon them at any time and Nale would not have had to "recover" his.

I think that they are still connected to the Oathpact, but the blades are no longer theirs. 

That would explain a lot. When did we learn that or is it just the best current guess. I still like a combination of an Intent and insanity to explain their behavior. Maybe the Intents/Divine Attributes were somehow part of the Oathpact?  If so the Intent should still effect them, even as cognitive shadows, right?

[Argent]

38 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I'm going to argue my case a bit here. I feel I have a stronger case for Chana, so I'll argue her right now. 

There was a WoB that said all 10 Heralds were mentioned or seen in WoK. I could account for 9, each but Chana. Finding the exclamation "Dustmother" fulfilled that WoB. Then, there was a WoP that said that a character had met Chana in the WoK or WoR. I searched the entire book of WoK, looking for that Renarin thing and Chana. I found neither. I did similar with WoR, and the strongest Chana candidate I found was Liss. There are other possibilities I listed in the thread, but I'm just not thrilled by those candidates. 

Ishar, I'm less sure of. I think there is a strong possibility that Ishar is the ardent. Not every chapter where a Herald picture is shown features a Herald within, but each time a Herald shows up, their picture is invariably in the chapter heading. Im not a fan of the Tezim theory, just because by WoB they're all from Roshar, and Mraize says that Tezim isn't of the local species. 

This may be something we just disagree on then. The "you've seen all the Heralds" has, I believe, been clarified to suggest that "seen" includes "mentioned", in which case Hoid's story about Fleet would cover that.

As for Mraize's comment, he suspects Tezim might not be local.

Regardless, my main issue with your candidates is that it's a meta-issue - it relies on chapter headers and comments by Brandon or Peter. Time will prove one of us right, and I think little else will. We seem to disagree on what constitutes evidence. 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Argent said:

This may be something we just disagree on then. The "you've seen all the Heralds" has, I believe, been clarified to suggest that "seen" includes "mentioned", in which case Hoid's story about Fleet would cover that.

Full disclosure, I'm on board the Liss-is-Chana train. 

Yes the mentions in tWoK is fulfilled by the "Dustmother" comment. The WoP he's speaking of though, says that Chana has been seen on screen at least once, by at least one character. 

It's flimsy, and there's nothing concrete, but the speculation exists, because that WoP implies that we've actually met the person who is in actuality Chana. 

[Yata]

I have an hypotesis for Ishar (and could be badly wrong) and nothing on Chana but I think we Will Need something more than "he can't be' anything else or his look fits" to play at Where is the Heralds?

[Torrieltar]

I'm very much on board with Tezim = Ishar. Navani's quote and Ishar's divine attributes make it seem all the more likely.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/5t8kcl/

[Zmann966]

I think the secondary factor of our conversation—the one that explored the reasons WHY the Heralds are insane—is almost as important as to the manifestations of their insanity, @Argent.

I'll let you expand upon it in public forum if you'd like to here, but if the Heralds' cognitive selves have similar "presence" across the Realms that spren do (as we were discussing the intelligence/sapience leaking into the Physical vs the Cognitive.) then the lack of the bond and their continued existence on the Physical well beyond their "allotted time" could deteriorate their minds further and further the longer they "stay."
If their "selves" are/were as bonded to their attributes (mini-intents, as I say) as we assume in the foundation of this obsession theory, then it would make sense that their insanity towards or away from those attributes is related.

As a mind is diminished (or deteriorates) in the Physical, only they strong links remain—as we see in the Nahel Bond spren who manifest as "dumbspren" but latch onto their attributes and then grow along that bond to bring more of their mind to bear. The Heralds are the exact opposite—they are losing their mind and devolving towards less and less sane minds with only their Divine Attributes strong enough to continue to leak through... In this case as imprinted "broad strokes" on their deteriorating minds, manifesting in obsessions either for or against.

[Toaster Retribution]

Nice job @Argent! I made something similar about Heralds and extremism some time ago, but you theory is better. I am strongly in favor of Ishar = Tezim, and your thoughts on Nale are the same as mine. Your idea on the Heralds being extreme opposites, or extreme personifications, of their traits, is nice. I think we might be able to find more patterns in there though. For example, your theory states that Jezrien might be the total opposite of leading and protecting, while Nale is the embodiment of being just and confident. That opens up for a nice pattern, where every other Herald is opposed to their traits, and every other embodies them. That would make Chana the opposite of brave and obedient, Vedel extremely loving and healing, Paliah the opposite and onwards. 

3 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Ishar, I'm less sure of. I think there is a strong possibility that Ishar is the ardent. Not every chapter where a Herald picture is shown features a Herald within, but each time a Herald shows up, their picture is invariably in the chapter heading. Im not a fan of the Tezim theory, just because by WoB they're all from Roshar, and Mraize says that Tezim isn't of the local species. 

I was onboard on Ishar = bald ardent, before I remembered that Tezim is still around. Also, Mraize comments about Ishar aren´t that big of an obstacle. He says Tezim isn´t human. Ishar isn´t either. He is a cognitive shadow. Mraize also says that if Tezim is human, he is not of the local species. but since Ishar isn´t human, that comment doesn´t mean much. We have pretty much on Tezim = Ishar though, so I find that more likely. 

[Steeldancer]

59 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Nice job @Argent! I made something similar about Heralds and extremism some time ago, but you theory is better. I am strongly in favor of Ishar = Tezim, and your thoughts on Nale are the same as mine. Your idea on the Heralds being extreme opposites, or extreme personifications, of their traits, is nice. I think we might be able to find more patterns in there though. For example, your theory states that Jezrien might be the total opposite of leading and protecting, while Nale is the embodiment of being just and confident. That opens up for a nice pattern, where every other Herald is opposed to their traits, and every other embodies them. That would make Chana the opposite of brave and obedient, Vedel extremely loving and healing, Paliah the opposite and onwards. 

I was onboard on Ishar = bald ardent, before I remembered that Tezim is still around. Also, Mraize comments about Ishar aren´t that big of an obstacle. He says Tezim isn´t human. Ishar isn´t either. He is a cognitive shadow. Mraize also says that if Tezim is human, he is not of the local species. but since Ishar isn´t human, that comment doesn´t mean much. We have pretty much on Tezim = Ishar though, so I find that more likely. 

I've never really thought of cognitive shadows as a different species. Similar to how I do not consider spren to be an animal. 

I just remembered what I thought Tezim might be: someone asked at some point about dangerous people. Brandon mentioned some deadly mercenary people we hadn't seen in the Cosmere yet. I can't think of where else they might be, even among his planned books. Tezim might be one of them, something totally new that we've never seen before. That would be cool

[18th Shard]

I'm assuming you meant to explain that cognitive expectations defined the Heralds in the same way they do spren in the later post?

If so, I like it.

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

6 hours ago, Argent said:

This may be something we just disagree on then. The "you've seen all the Heralds" has, I believe, been clarified to suggest that "seen" includes "mentioned", in which case Hoid's story about Fleet would cover that.

Yes the mentions in tWoK is fulfilled by the "Dustmother" comment. The WoP he's speaking of though, says that Chana has been seen on screen at least once, by at least one character. 

It's flimsy, and there's nothing concrete, but the speculation exists, because that WoP implies that we've actually met the person who is in actuality Chana. 

Have said WoP for completeness.

Quote

55. PeterAhlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Given Mraize's comments, I would find it incredibly funny if Tezim is a Worldhopper or Dysian Amian or a Worldhopping shape shifter 

[Pagerunner]

Can you clarify where you believe the Divine Attributes originate? Are they inherent aspects of Honor (and/or maybe Cultivation)? Or are the Heralds themselves the actual origin of the attributes, and that they are only associated with the Honor because his Heralds displayed them? 

[Confused]

On 9/20/2017 at 10:51 AM, Pagerunner said:

Can you clarify where you believe the Divine Attributes originate? Are they inherent aspects of Honor (and/or maybe Cultivation)? Or are the Heralds themselves the actual origin of the attributes, and that they are only associated with the Honor because his Heralds displayed them? 

Doesn’t Brandon say (somewhere) the Returned and the Heralds are essentially the same magic system? I interpret him to mean the Honorblades are each an Honor/Cultivation splinter bound to an ideal. They're like the Returned’s Divine Breath, another splinter bound to an ideal. IMO, unlike the Divine Breath, the Honor/Cultivation splinter periodically possesses a different body when the Herald returns to the Physical Realm.

Thus, I think Honor/Cultivation chose their ideals. Later, these ideals became Vorinized into the Divine Attributes. IOW, the ideals that became the Divine Attributes are “inherent aspects” of the Shards. I think Honor/Cultivation presented these ideals to humans in the form of the Heralds. Humans personified the Vorinized Heraldic ideals - the Divine Attributes - into the Radiantspren.

Quote

There were stories of evil men made immortal, then tortured over and over again—like Extes, who had his arms torn off each day for sacrificing his son to the Voidbringers in exchange for knowledge of the day of his death. It was just a tale, but tales came from somewhere.

WoK, Kindle pp. 688-689.

I think this passage foreshadows what we’ll discover about the Heralds. They were “evil men made immortal” by the Oathpact. They agreed to become Cognitive Shadows infused with Honor/Cultivation’s Investiture and stand at the bridge between Braize and Roshar to fend off the voidspren. (I’ve used the “Horatius at the Bridge” comparison before and still think it’s apt. If you’ve read Jim Butcher’s excellent Codex Alera series, you’ll recognize that scene.) 

If the Heralds stay too long after a Desolation, a new one begins because there’s no one manning the bridge. IMO, that’s why Kalak is surprised one Herald going back is enough. Apparently, a single Oathkeeper maintains the Oathpact. This does suggest Odium didn’t try to cause a new Desolation after Aharietam. He wasn't bound by the Oathpact. It would have been easy for him to break through.

Quote

55. PeterAhlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

Might Chana be the Reshi “king” whose Tai-na respects boldness above all else? There are issues with this, if she’s really Talik’s mother. But otherwise, it’s a possibility.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Confused