The Heralds and Where to Find Them

[Tariniel]

Thanks @BeskarKomrk! Added in the apparent familiarity with the heralds to Nalan's section as well

[Nymeros]

21 hours ago, Tariniel said:

Then what would the "if he ever stops drooling" refer to? Also, what do you mean by Jezrien being dark skinned? I wasn't aware there was a theory that he wasn't...

....Still Gawx. Why would Nale announce that Jezrien will rule in wisdom when recognizing and bowing to Gawx? That wouldn't make much sense.

You theorized that Jezrien could be Niter, an Alethi man. However, Jezrien likely has the dark skin of a Makabaki and wouldn't appear as an Alethi just as he is unlikely to be an old graying man when one of the few things we know about him is that he is surprisingly young.

[marianmi]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

....Still Gawx. Why would Nale announce that Jezrien will rule in wisdom when recognizing and bowing to Gawx? That wouldn't make much sense.

You theorized that Jezrien could be Niter, an Alethi man. However, Jezrien likely has the dark skin of a Makabaki and wouldn't appear as an Alethi just as he is unlikely to be an old graying man when one of the few things we know about him is that he is surprisingly young.

I think he was playing with words, talking towards Gawx but actually referring to Jezrien.

If you look at the Herald images from the surge diagram, you can see heralds have different looks.  Jezrien does not look dark skinned. Nale and Talenel look dark-skinned, but Jezrien and Kalak look definitively more of what I think is alethi-like. Kalak at least I imagine him blond, close in looks with how I imagine Adolin.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/e/eb/Surgebinders.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141103012851 

Interestingly, none of them look shin.

PS: is it weird that the top half is men, bottom half women? Was this discussed?? Can it mean something? (e.g. top half spren are closer to Honor, bottom half closer to Cultivation?) Also that Shalash is directly on the diagonal (opposed?) from her father?? And that none of the female heralds look dark-skinned?

Edited October 16, 2016 by marianmi

[Nymeros]

9 minutes ago, marianmi said:

I think he was playing with words, talking towards Gawx but actually referring to Jezrien.

If you look at the Herald images from the surge diagram, you can see heralds have different looks.  Jezrien does not look dark skinned. Nale and Talenel look dark-skinned, but Jezrien and Kalak look definitively more of what I think is alethi-like. Kalak at least I imagine him blond, close in looks with how I imagine Adolin.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/e/eb/Surgebinders.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141103012851 

Interestingly, none of them look shin.

PS: is it weird that the top half is men, bottom half women? Was this discussed?? Can it mean something? (e.g. top half spren are closer to Honor, bottom half closer to Cultivation?) Also that Shalash is directly on the diagonal (opposed?) from her father?? And that none of the female heralds look dark-skinned?

You think he was reffering to Jezrien while seemingly speaking towards Gawx?   I don't know why but okay. 

 

I cant infer the skin colors of the Heralds from stone carvings...They all look gray to me.  I assume that Jezrien is dark skinned based on his daughter being dark skinned and his being held as a god by certain Makabi people. I can't imagine black skinned people having a god that isn't black skinned.  

[Eki]

I don't think you can really infer anything from that diagram, @marianmi. The colors of their faces look more related to the background than anything else (which is probably why none of the women look dark skinned, because the background at the bottom is gray) (and we know that Shalash has dark skin). Also, in-universe artists tend to be biased towards their own culture, and we don't know when it was created.

[marianmi]

22 minutes ago, Eki said:

I don't think you can really infer anything from that diagram, @marianmi. The colors of their faces look more related to the background than anything else (which is probably why none of the women look dark skinned, because the background at the bottom is gray) (and we know that Shalash has dark skin). Also, in-universe artists tend to be biased towards their own culture, and we don't know when it was created.

I don't mean to look at the skin color in that picture, but at the general features. I am assuming they are based on Earth races, and for example if shin features are asian, then since none of the figures there look asian I take it that no Herald was shin-like. With the same reasoning, looking as Kalak's hair - it doesn't look like a dark-skinned Earth person's kind of hair. Jezrien's facial hair and straight angle face look more caucasian (and yes, I know Alethi are not exactly caucasian), whereas Taln and Nale have more rounded faces. Maybe because of the extra shadow from their hoods - but also because of Taln's moustache and Nale's cheek shadows - I have impression that they are dark-skinned just by looking at their faces. But mine is a mapping to Earth types, so I might be way off. For example Shallash does not look dark skinned in the picture. Is she described as dark skinned, or tanned (not to mention she might be a mulatto)? Again, this is my mental image of them, based on Earth types and those pictures - and I don't claim to have it right  

But this was a bit besides the point. The point was that I believe Nale was referring to Yaezir as drooling, not to Gawx. Why was Gawx drooling?

Edited October 17, 2016 by marianmi

[Nymeros]

55 minutes ago, marianmi said:

I don't mean to look at the skin color in that picture, but at the general features. I am assuming they are based on Earth races, 

...No. Rosharans are pretty different from Earth races. That's not how Brandon tends to roll (except on Scadrial) so we won't really know until we see them.  

Quote

and for example if shin features are asian, then since none of the figures there look asian I take it that no Herald was shin-like. 

With Rosharan races (which the Heralds may not be), Shin are closer to the "average white guy" in terms of appearance but shorter and balder. They're the only ethnicity we know of on Roshar with white skin and no epicanthic fold.

Quote

With the same reasoning, looking as Kalak's hair - it doesn't look like a dark-skinned Earth person's kind of hair. Jezrien's facial hair and straight angle face look more caucasian (and yes, I know Alethi are not exactly caucasian), whereas Taln and Nale have more rounded faces. Maybe because of the extra shadow from their hoods - but also because of Taln's moustache and Nale's cheek shadows - I have impression that they are dark-skinned just by looking at their faces. But mine is a mapping to Earth types, so I might be way off. For example Shallash does not look dark skinned in the picture. Is she described as dark skinned, or tanned (not to mention she might be a mulatto)? Again, this is my mental image of them, based on Earth types and those pictures - and I don't claim to have it right  

You mean nappy hair? Black guys don't seem to have nappy heads on Roshar nor do they have wide facial features. Those belong to the blue skinned, white haired Natanatan.

Black guys on Roshar are described as being small and fine boned, like our boy Sigzil. When non Rosharan black guys come to Roshar (Grump and Blunt) they're described as incredibly odd looking Makabaki. and yes, Shalash is described as dark skinned with hair that hangs to her waist.

Quote

But this was a bit besides the point. The point was that I believe Nale was referring to Yaezir as drooling, not to Gawx. Why was Gawx drooling?

He was probably too dead to swallow his saliva so it ran down his chin.

Why do you think Nale would be randomly throwing shade at Jezrien to people who have no clue what he would be referring to?

[Eki]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

I am assuming they are based on Earth races

They aren't, really. They all have features from Earth races, but they are mixed. For example, pretty much all Rosharans except the Shin have epicanthic folds - which (I believe) black (or white) people on earth don't tend to have. The most asian-looking of them all would be the Alethi - and the Shin would be most caucasian. Then there are some races who have features that don't appear anywhere on Earth - like Thaylen eyebrows. Brandon wrote a pretty good post on it here.

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Is she described as dark skinned, or tanned

From the same topic, Brandon says Shallash has black skin pigmentation. But she's described in the interlude she appears in as well, I'm fairly sure.

[marianmi]

9 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Why do you think Nale would be randomly throwing shade at Jezrien to people who have no clue what he would be referring to?

Because the azir were worshipping Jezrien, which he knew to be a drooling broken man, nothing like the Herald he used to be, and Jezrien living long won't benefit anyone in his current state?

 

[Krandacth]

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Why do you think Nale would be randomly throwing shade at Jezrien to people who have no clue what he would be referring to?

Also, given that Syl gets quite snippy with Kaladin when he tries to frame whether something is "right" in terms of the law ("I am no Highspren"), I bet Nale and Jezrien would rarely have seen eye-to-eye. And then the most bureaucratic, rule-centric society on Roshar decide to follow Jezrien instead of Nale as the primary God? I imagine this as the only time we see Nale let his feelings get the better of him, and he can't help making the spiteful jibe.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Krandacth

[Nymeros]

21 hours ago, marianmi said:

Because the azir were worshipping Jezrien, which he knew to be a drooling broken man, nothing like the Herald he used to be, and Jezrien living long won't benefit anyone in his current state?

 

Maybe. Obviously I can't dispute an interpretation of that line of dialogue so, 'okay.'

[djammmer]

So I think we have a high level of confidence that we've only seen 3?  Taln, Ash and Nale?

[BeskarKomrk]

On 10/29/2016 at 2:33 PM, djammmer said:

So I think we have a high level of confidence that we've only seen 3?  Taln, Ash and Nale?

I would say we have a high level of confidence that we've seen Ash and Nale. In Taln's case, it depends on how you interpret Brandon's insistence on only referring to that character as "the man who calls himself Taln" or similar phrases. Personally, I think it is Taln and Brandon is just messing with us, but there's certainly enough room in the evidence we have that it could be somebody else entirely (or some other thing with body-snatching/memory implanting/cloning/whatever X-Files nonsense you enjoy). There is also a high level of confidence that we have seen more than just those three, but there is not a lot of confidence in where those sightings are.

[Ward]

On 10/14/2016 at 1:19 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Roshar's mythos combined with a few actual facts culminates with the realization that Heaven = Hell

I'm not up on the grand library of theories, but I just thought of this one, so forgive me if it's old and tired.

BRAIZE = YOLEN.

Mankind (native to Yolen) were kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls where Damnation now is. Yolen was (presumably) the residence of Adonalsium, or at least proximate enough for the 16 to get at it, and they were definitely from Yolen.

And the classic WOB regarding "Has Hoid ever been to Braize?" "(Mad giggling) RAFO! The biggest RAFO!" 

[Asrael]

On 8/21/2017 at 0:35 PM, Ward said:

I'm not up on the grand library of theories, but I just thought of this one, so forgive me if it's old and tired.

BRAIZE = YOLEN.

Mankind (native to Yolen) were kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls where Damnation now is. Yolen was (presumably) the residence of Adonalsium, or at least proximate enough for the 16 to get at it, and they were definitely from Yolen.

And the classic WOB regarding "Has Hoid ever been to Braize?" "(Mad giggling) RAFO! The biggest RAFO!" 

You just exploded my brain into a million pieces O_O

[phoenix2563]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:35 PM, Ward said:

BRAIZE = YOLEN.

Good thought, but we are fairly certain this is not the case.  

It has been highly theorized that Braize was formerly the Tranquiline Halls and potentially where the Heralds are from originally, of which I agree, but I do not believe Braize = Yolen.

Most of the proof for this is in the below thread, based on the correspondence between Frost and Hoid included in select epigraphs of the first two books.  (Frost is on Yolen btw).

 

[ADIMORTIS]

Peter said this on the Tor Oathbringer Prologue page

 

55. PeterAhlstrom

Wetlandernw@14: Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, ADIMORTIS said:

Peter said this on the Tor Oathbringer Prologue page

 

55. PeterAhlstrom

Wetlandernw@14: Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

One time. One character. I guess I'll jump on board the "Liss is Chana" train. 

[Pagerunner]

8 minutes ago, ADIMORTIS said:

Peter said this on the Tor Oathbringer Prologue page

 

55. PeterAhlstrom

Wetlandernw@14: Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

One time. One character. I guess I'll jump on board the "Liss is Chana" train. 

Very puzzling. Peter's particular phrasing makes me concerned that it might be referring to a depiction of the Herald, rather than the person of the Herald themselves. He doesn't say we have seen her at least once, he says a character has seen her at least once.

But assuming he's not intentionally being that deceptive, I don't think LIss can be Chana. Liss has a Shardblade, but all ten Honorblades are accounted for at this time (one with Szeth, one with Nale, one in Braize, and the other seven with the Shin). It would take a very specific turn of events for the Shin to have 'lost track' of an Honorblade for a period of time that the Herald could have reclaimed it during the prologue but later turned it. That indicates Liss has a regular Shardblade. Again, there's the possibility that Chana abandoned her Blade, changed her mind, couldn't get it back, and acquired a Shardblade instead. But basically, rather than viewing her ownership of a Blade as evidence for her being a Herald, I think it's actually an obstacle to be overcome.

I don't really have any better ideas, though. I assume most of the Heralds, with Nale being the exception, are keeping a pretty low profile. And Taln, obviously. But Pailiah (divine attributes Learned and Giving) was spotted in the Palanaeum, so maybe Chana is doing something related to her divine attributes as well, Brave and Obedient. Which... I guess an assassin kind of counts for both of those. Or maybe we want to look at Ash's potential corruption of her attributes (Creative and Honest), so maybe Chana is being cowardly somewhere. Do any ardents fit the bill?

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Liss has a Shardblade

I don't see that as an issue. 

Liss is an Assassin, which is a wonderful twisted way to reinterpret her divine attributes of "obedient" and "brave," and as stated in book, a female shardbearer is unexpected and a wonderful way to get close and kill someone. 

I think she has a normal Shardblade as a part of her chosen profession. 

The quote makes it seem like we have seen her. It says she's been seen "onscreen" by at least one character one time. 

Obviously that's a much broader category than just Liss, but I like the idea as much as I didn't want to originally believe it. 

Like I said the profession works as a perversion of her associated traits. Her long life would lend itself well to her wonderful mastery of accents, she's an interesting character who I'm convinced we'll see more of, and it lends itself to the (completely unproven) idea that all of the Heralds were present at the feast. 

It's a guess that is very likely wrong, but it's a fun one.

Edit: I really like the idea that the divine attributes have been twisted in each of the Heralds. In some like Ash's "Destructive/Creative" flip I can see them being reversed, but I don't think it's that simple because of Nale. His "Just" is definitely still there he's just twisted it to be a perverted sense of Justice that follows the letter of the law and not the spirit, and is willing to change the law to meet his needs rather than change his actions to incorporate the law. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Frostlander]

Chana as Liss seems so perfect (having a brave obedient warrior sell her services to someone who orders her to [usually] stealth-kill people), that it's either absolutely true or a very blatant fakeout. But the way it lines up, combined with what Peter said, means it's almost certainly intentional. Personally, I hope it's true, because it would be a really great storyline.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Frostlander
Typo

[WhiteLeeopard]

Didn't Shalash also have a Shardblade too? I wouldn't  be surprised if most Heralds didn't want to recover their Honorblades due to what they meant, but they did like some of the minor perks of a Shardblade, as such they could just have picked a normal one.

Still, I originally didn't like the Liss/Chana theory, as it would eventually mean there seem to be no interesting storylines that do not involve Heralds or secret societies.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Didn't Shalash also have a Shardblade too? I wouldn't  be surprised if most Heralds didn't want to recover their Honorblades due to what they meant, but they did like some of the minor perks of a Shardblade, as such they could just have picked a normal one.

Shallash/Baxil's mistress comments specifically on how a Shardblade would make destroying the statue easier (and in the next breath says it might be too easy), so the implication is that she doesn't. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Shallash/Baxil's mistress comments specifically on how a Shardblade would make destroying the statue easier (and in the next breath says it might be too easy), so the implication is that she doesn't. 

You're right, just reread it. But she didn't seem averse to getting one, just have the impression she couldn't be bothered to do so. So I wouldn't say having a shardblade is a mark against been a Herald.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

You're right, just reread it. But she didn't seem averse to getting one, just have the impression she couldn't be bothered to do so. So I wouldn't say having a shardblade is a mark against been a Herald.

Agreed. I don't see any reason why it would be an issue. Considering their longevity, I'd just assumed that a few of them had them.