How are the heralds superior to the Knights Radiant?

[ICanDream]

I've been reading Stormlight again, and one thing struck me - how are heralds in any way superior to the Knights Radiant? I mean they are described (somewhere) as being greater than the Knights Radiant. But if they are simply normal people with Honour Blades then that is not the case at all. Remember that those wielding honour blades use up more Stormlight than a typical Radiant, which further emphasizes the point. To me, it seems ridiculous that they are revered so much, and yet, they are inferior to a Radiant.

So what are your thoughts? I look forward to listening to you guys ripping my argument to pieces.

[Aon Ene]

I don't know much about Rosharan mythology, but if the Heralds aren't superior to the Knights in power, they might be considered greater because they possessed the power first, like how a teacher is seen as superior to the student. However, it doesn't seem like the Heralds are just normal people with Honor Blades. They obviously underwent a lot of torture that is probably more that a human Radiant could endure. They also are skilled with their powers and have undeniable leadership skills. Additionally, I think they're revered a lot more than the Radiants because they weren't seen as traitors to mankind.  

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

I think there's a WoB floating around somewhere that the Heralds have powers in addition to their blades.

[Sliverofnone]

The heralds are definitely more than normal people. Brandon has RAFO'd what exactly they are or what their origin is (at least from what I've found), but it is clear that they are not just regular people with honor blades. He has stated that without their blades they cannot wield the powers of surges, but they are capable of other things. Considering that the oathpact was an agreement between Honor and the heralds, and the importance and power given through oaths, my guess is that the heralds have powers granted to them through the oathpact, and possibly their link with Honor.

[GeneralStu]

I can't find any supporting evidence right now as I am at work on my lunch break but I believe it has been confirmed that the heralds are cognitive shadows. Also I believe it has been said that they could draw investiture directly from honor without the need to inhale stormlight, essentially giving them unlimited investiture. I'm not positive these things have been confirmed or if they are just theories though. 

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

The heralds were the pattern Spren used to create the KR. the Heralds are essentially Cognitive Shadows, who (if you ascribe to certain theories here) channeled power directly from Honor (hence why they use up more stormlight the blades now depend on an inferior fuel).  Lastly they were not bound by the oaths of the orders and were at least for a while apart from the orders. There is a WoB that Nale was the last Harald to accept an order. as such they are not as limited in how to act.

 

NInjaed

[GeneralStu]

Quote

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Q: Like Vin and Elend?

A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Here I found part of it. 

[Yata he/him]

Like other before me said, the Honorblades were capable of accessing Honor's Power directly. This gave the holders an Unlimited amount of Kinetic Investiture to tap from (probably limited in the amount/second).

The Honorblades are used not like they were meant as After Honor's Death they are no more able to operate freely

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Its clear the Heralds had some enhancements in addition to the Honorblades. But even if they didn't, I bet they would still be revered. They were the first, they gave the warning, they fought every single Desolation. That last alone would be enough to worship them.

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Similar to how all era 1 crew is revered in era 2, when you could argue Breeze was just a Soother with the same power as any Soother around.

Ways to be famous:

• Abilities
• Deeds 

With deeds likely been more important in the long run.

[Weltall]

Aside from previously not needing Stormlight to perform Surgebinding and Brandon's general statement that there are 'other things' they're capable of even without their Honorblades, we know that they have at least enhanced senses and reflexes, based on the scene where Taln foils Iyatil's attempt to kill Amaram.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 hour ago, GeneralStu said:

Here I found part of it. 

That was mine!!!! I got that one 

[Calderis he/him]

The whole resurrection every desolation probably added a bit to their reputations as well. 

I mean... Unlimited investment, powers the Radiants don't have, and returning from death repeatedly. 

Can't see why they'd be worshipped. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

It is also is true that over the ages they would have accrued reputation for things that they may not even have done or been able to do. As ages passed by the legend of their powers would have spun far beyond reality into something even greater. Thus, even with all of the knowledge, skills, resurrections etc.. the stories that would be told would invariably grow far beyond the truth.

[Fulminato he/him]

10 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It is also is true that over the ages they would have accrued reputation for things that they may not even have done or been able to do. As ages passed by the legend of their powers would have spun far beyond reality into something even greater. Thus, even with all of the knowledge, skills, resurrections etc.. the stories that would be told would invariably grow far beyond the truth.

a proof in that direction is the change of the name, all the herald had in the vorin church simmetrical name, and kalak had the vowel changed (kalak -> kelek)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Like other before me said, the Honorblades were capable of accessing Honor's Power directly. This gave the holders an Unlimited amount of Kinetic Investiture to tap from (probably limited in the amount/second).

The Honorblades are used not like they were meant as After Honor's Death they are no more able to operate freely

I think a Herald using an Honorblade would still have that Direct Access as the Cognitive Shadow. Much like a Returned has a Fifth Heightening Breath, or a Lerasium Mistborn is much more powerful than a standard era 1 mistborn. I think the Herald themselves are the key which unlocks the direct access of the Honorblades, so I'm not 100% sure that Brandon's statement needed corrected as it shows in the WoB. 

The power of Honor is still out there and present in Roshar as much as it would have been when Honor was still alive after all. It's not like the Heralds tapped into the Stormfather or the Highstorm to get their direct connection, it just was. Therefore I think they are that connection. They are also stronger/faster/immortal like the Returned of Warbreaker (see Denth's speed and Vasher's endurance, etc. not the "modern" gods). 

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

The power of Honor is still out there and present in Roshar as much as it would have been when Honor was still alive after all. It's not like the Heralds tapped into the Stormfather or the Highstorm to get their direct connection, it just was. Therefore I think they are that connection. They are also stronger/faster/immortal like the Returned of Warbreaker (see Denth's speed and Vasher's endurance, etc. not the "modern" gods). 

The issue is that just like the Spren bond to a Radiant, the blades had a bond to Tanavast as well. That bond was broken with his death. 

The blades still retain their ability to grant the surges, and their weak bond allows for poor Stormlight usage, but without the bond to Tanavast, they cannot drawn directly on Honor's investiture. 

The blades were initially an intermediary that allowed a connection to the Shard itself, but now they can only bond to their holder. 

Edit: this is speculation, but it explains Brandon's asterisk in this WoB. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#1

Quote

QUESTION

Is Nalan using his original Honorblade, or did he bond a spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He's using his original Honorblade. But there's an asterisk here that will come up in Oathbringer.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Calderis

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Edit: this is speculation, but it explains Brandon's asterisk in this WoB. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#1

 

Hmm, interesting perspective.

I'd assumed that WoB * was related to the breaking of the Oathpact. So for instance, I fully expect Taln (if it really is Taln) when he re-summons his Honorblade and gets back to sanity to have access to his full powered Honorblade abilities, etc. I anticipate this happening in a very dramatic/dire moment in the coming battles with the voidbringers in the new Desolation. it might couple with someone taking up Honor again somehow, but I really hope that doesn't become a repetitive thing in the Cosmere (people picking up dropped Shards that is). 

I can see your perspective on the stuff, but as far as I know, the blades were bonded to the Heralds individually, not to Honor. In my mind, this means that Taln's blade is fully powered since he never broke the Oathpact, and the other Heralds have a chance to redeem their Blades/Oaths still since Brandon has said that the Oathpact isn't as broken as the other Heralds think. 

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I can see your perspective on the stuff, but as far as I know, the blades were bonded to the Heralds individually, not to Honor. In my mind, this means that Taln's blade is fully powered since he never broke the Oathpact, and the other Heralds have a chance to redeem their Blades/Oaths still since Brandon has said that the Oathpact isn't as broken as the other Heralds think. 

Whereas I believe that without a bond two Honor, the Honorblades would have needed to consume themselves such as with other investiture we've seen. 

Bonds are important on Roshar. I don't believe the Honorblades would have been necessary at all if the Heralds had a direct bond to honor, and I don't believe that the blades could channel Honor's investiture without a bond to him. Which is why I think if them as an intermediary. 

Taln with an actual unbroken Honorblade would be cool... But more OP than I think we're going to see for the time being. 

Guess we'll just have to wait and see. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Look, the WoB I got (which is above) says this: they get their power directly from honor. They didn't need stormlight. that alone makes heralds much more powerful. The Knights are limited in stormlight, UNLESS my theory is correct, and Shardplate is composed of stormlight, which would allow them to retain it longer. 

Speaking of which, did heralds have shardplate? 

[Oversleep]

There are several WoBs on these things (some of which has been misremembered to some extent).

Quote

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

source

Quote

Seonid (paraphrased)

I asked him to tell me about one of the Herald's innate powers.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have none.

source

Quote

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

source

Quote

Rybal (paraphrased)

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and, if not, do they have the same restrictions that others would.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds, without their Blades, are incapable of the powers that we are familiar with. That does not mean that they don't have special powers of their own.

source

Quote

Questioner

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Questioner

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

source

Quote

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

source

I'll add more if I find something.

[Weltall]

11 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Speaking of which, did heralds have shardplate? 

I don't think so for two reasons. First, Kalak's description of Jezrien in the WoK Prelude talks about how he wore 'once-fine clothing scorched and stained with blood' but makes no mention of armor even though he observes Radiants moving around who were in Shardplate. The implication is that none of the Heralds have Shardplate, else they'd have been wearing it and Jezrien would either still be in it (this scene taking place just after the end of the battle) or he'd have changed out of it and his clothes wouldn't look like he'd, err, just been through a battle.

Also, the way that the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he won't transform for him and that he'll be a knight 'without Blade or Plate' basically tells us that Shardplate is a consequence of the Nahel Bond. I suppose it's possible the Heralds could do make something like Shardplate since the spren were copying what Honor did with the Heralds but then you get to the issue of why Jezrien was clearly fighting in ordinary clothing during the Desolation.

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

I don't think so for two reasons. First, Kalak's description of Jezrien in the WoK Prelude talks about how he wore 'once-fine clothing scorched and stained with blood' but makes no mention of armor even though he observes Radiants moving around who were in Shardplate. The implication is that none of the Heralds have Shardplate, else they'd have been wearing it and Jezrien would either still be in it (this scene taking place just after the end of the battle) or he'd have changed out of it and his clothes wouldn't look like he'd, err, just been through a battle.

Also, the way that the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he won't transform for him and that he'll be a knight 'without Blade or Plate' basically tells us that Shardplate is a consequence of the Nahel Bond. I suppose it's possible the Heralds could do make something like Shardplate since the spren were copying what Honor did with the Heralds but then you get to the issue of why Jezrien was clearly fighting in ordinary clothing during the Desolation.

I took that as he won't have a blade, not that he won't have shardplate. 

Anyway, I agree. I think the Heralds probably used to be just more powerful surgebinders, with the whole direct connection to honor through the honorblades thing. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, Overstorm said:

Seonid (paraphrased)

I asked him to tell me about one of the Herald's innate powers.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have none.

Never seen this one before. Makes me wonder if Brandon was actually implying anything in the other WoB about "does not mean that they don't have special powers of their own" or if that was just deflection.

8 hours ago, ICanDream said:

How are heralds in any way superior to the Knights Radiant?

They fought and won at least one Desolation before Radiants even existed. That says far more than I ever could, even though I've tried.

[Oversleep]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Never seen this one before. Makes me wonder if Brandon was actually implying anything in the other WoB about "does not mean that they don't have special powers of their own" or if that was just deflection.

Innate. But Shards could have granted them some, right? That wouldn't count as innate?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Overstorm said:

Innate. But Shards could have granted them some, right? That wouldn't count as innate?

I suppose that would count, guess I overlooked that possibility since he's already gave them the Honorblades.