How are the heralds superior to the Knights Radiant?

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

I suppose that would count, guess I overlooked that possibility since he's already gave them the Honorblades.

Taln's ninja skills without Honorblade point to some kind of augmentations. My theory is that Cultivation enhanced their bodies and Honor gave them Surges.

Not to mention they seem to be able to detect Stormlight (Nale sensed Lift metabolizing into Stormlight, Taln reacted to Shallan Lightweaving).

Edited September 16, 2017 by Overstorm

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Wasn't there a WoB stating that the Heralds are Cognitive Shadows and kinda immortal?

Hmmmm.. maybe thats why they can be "killed" and "resurrected" all those times.?

Id also like to point out that pre chapter part in WoR that reads something like: Jesrian (Jesrian?) demanded the Radiants adhere to their laws or he will kill them all..

Im inclined to agree with @Calderis point that there direct link to Honors investiture is what makes them OP compared to the Radiants.

Hmm, im on my phone and dont have good micro and its on the previous page but now im thinking you didnt say the compared to part, but i added it due to the thread 

Though I don't know if I'd call it a "bond" to Honor.. Semantics aside, i agree with the analogy.

!~ HIF ~!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Jesrian (Jesrian?) demanded the Radiants adhere to their laws or he will kill them all..

It's spelled "Jezrien," but the entry was that Ishar forced them into it.

[+Spicker]

7 hours ago, Overstorm said:

Seonid (paraphrased)

I asked him to tell me about one of the Herald's innate powers.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have none.

source

 

7 hours ago, Overstorm said:

Rybal (paraphrased)

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and, if not, do they have the same restrictions that others would.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds, without their Blades, are incapable of the powers that we are familiar with. That does not mean that they don't have special powers of their own.

source

I don't know about anybody else, but it takes a lot of mental gymnastics for me to reconcile these two quotes. So they don't have innate powers, but they may have special powers of their own without the use of their Blades? I am hoping that this is just a result of not having the exact quote for the paraphrased WoB, because they sure sound like they contradict each other. That or one was made after he changed his mind about something.
I might have to wait till we see it in the book to get a clear answer about this.

[Yata he/him]

I believe the Heralds' extra powers are Simply the inherit abilities their Status as Cognitive Shadows gave them.

We saw another case of this:

a Cognitive Shadow with a physical body showing Supernatural Speed beyond the scope of his local magic.

Indeed as the Cognitive Shadows are mainly spren-like beings. It's also quite easy to think their senses act differents and they are able to intuitively feel Investiture like a Spren does

[StormblessDave]

If I'm not mistaken, now that Honor is dead, the Knight Radiants might become as powerful as the heralds(due to less restrictions)

That should make things interesting

[Yata he/him]

31 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

If I'm not mistaken, now that Honor is dead, the Knight Radiants might become as powerful as the heralds(due to less restrictions)

That should make things interesting

Hardly to say as with Honor's death probably the Radiants are already stronger than Heralds (because they lost unlimited Investiture) but they will be no match for the previous Desolations' Heralds

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

With those contradictory WoBs, explanation could be: 

Heralds were 10 normal people, with no original innate power. After they accepted the Oathpact they gained some special abilities, and the Honorblades. Now even without Honorblades they still have some special powers, and are no longer 10 normal people. Even discounting that they are cognitive shadows.

[Velvet Thunder he/him]

Quote

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

So, Odium went and killed honour, shattered him. Perhaps destroyed his soul. 

However we know there are 10 pieces of his soul still intact with the Honourblades. Do these have any potential or impact? Maybe, maybe not. The implications if they are somehow little pieces of honour that still 'live on' are large.. Odium may even need a champion to hunt down and systematically destroy all the blades, to remove honour completely? 

[Oversleep]

4 minutes ago, Velvet Thunder said:

So, Odium went and killed honour, shattered him. Perhaps destroyed his soul. 

However we know there are 10 pieces of his soul still intact with the Honourblades. Do these have any potential or impact? Maybe, maybe not. The implications if they are somehow little pieces of honour that still 'live on' are large.. Odium may even need a champion to hunt down and systematically destroy all the blades, to remove honour completely? 

You can't destroy Investiture. You can't kill power.

However, what you can do is kill the Vessel so that nobody guides the power and fragment the Investiture so nobody can pick it up. That's what Splintering a Shard is. Splinters or pieces of Shard existing are largely irrelevant.

[Aleksiel]

On 9/16/2017 at 7:47 AM, Spicker said:

 

I don't know about anybody else, but it takes a lot of mental gymnastics for me to reconcile these two quotes. So they don't have innate powers, but they may have special powers of their own without the use of their Blades? I am hoping that this is just a result of not having the exact quote for the paraphrased WoB, because they sure sound like they contradict each other. That or one was made after he changed his mind about something.
I might have to wait till we see it in the book to get a clear answer about this.

The way I understand it the Heralds didn't have any special powers before they became Heralds, hence 'no innate powers', however since then during the extended period they were exposed to investiture they developed some powers that remain integrated in them even after they ditched the Honorblades. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/15/2017 at 11:47 PM, Spicker said:

I don't know about anybody else, but it takes a lot of mental gymnastics for me to reconcile these two quotes. So they don't have innate powers, but they may have special powers of their own without the use of their Blades? I am hoping that this is just a result of not having the exact quote for the paraphrased WoB, because they sure sound like they contradict each other. That or one was made after he changed his mind about something.
I might have to wait till we see it in the book to get a clear answer about this.

It's because you are reading them backwards. Look at the dates.

"Doesn't mean they don't have their own powers" was March of 2014.

"No innate powers" was September of 2014.

---

That said, powers gifted to them by the Shards wouldn't be "innate" per se, even if they were a more permanent modification.

Edited September 17, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[asterion137 he/him]

Taln catching a dart midflight while catatonic seems to say they're at the very least, faster and stronger than normal people. They also might have their own version of super-Shardplate. 

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, asterion137 said:

Taln catching a dart midflight while catatonic seems to say they're at the very least, faster and stronger than normal people. They also might have their own version of super-Shardplate. 

They doesn't show any sign of Plate in the prologue and we know the standard Plates intefer with Honorblade's powers.

 

About their improved physical fests, I believe It's simply the result of their CS's status.

[Steeldancer he/him]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

They doesn't show any sign of Plate in the prologue and we know the standard Plates intefer with Honorblade's powers.

 

About their improved physical fests, I believe It's simply the result of their CS's status.

That's only because of the gemstones. IF they are able to generate their own shardplate, they should be fine. Not sure if they actually have that ability though. 

[Oversleep]

11 hours ago, Yata said:

About their improved physical fests, I believe It's simply the result of their CS's status.

Being a Cognitive Shadow does not grant any enhanced abilities by itself. Our prime example of CS inhabiting bodies are Returned and their enhanced physical abilities are due to their Divine Breath.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Overstorm said:

Being a Cognitive Shadow does not grant any enhanced abilities by itself. Our prime example of CS inhabiting bodies are Returned and their enhanced physical abilities are due to their Divine Breath.

I didn't point to them because we are in SA's section. Anyway we don't know if the Returned's enhanced physical is due the divine Breath, sure it's possible also likely that someone having more Innate Investiture could benefit from it. But I believe that a Cognitive Shadow's Soul is more Invested than a standard human.

PS: By the way, we don't know if there is an analogue that allow the Heralds to remain in a physical body that could work a bit like the divine Breath (also if for Roshar's ambient is possible it's easier for a Shadow to be stampled into a body

[Velvet Thunder he/him]

On 9/17/2017 at 3:32 PM, Overstorm said:

You can't destroy Investiture. You can't kill power.

However, what you can do is kill the Vessel so that nobody guides the power and fragment the Investiture so nobody can pick it up. That's what Splintering a Shard is. Splinters or pieces of Shard existing are largely irrelevant.

Agreed - I may have worded poorly if that's what you think I was implying.

What I was trying to say is that, agreed as you have already said you can only kill the vessel and splinter it so no one can pick it up. The honourblades if I am not mistaken are not the power itself, rather a conduit to the power. Technically, even if only in a small way, people can still 'pick up' the power through these conduits. Odium, being the hatred that he is, may desire the complete redundancy as far as possible, and may charge some underling with destroying these conduits removing the ability for people to 'pick up' some of the power.  Or splintering the swords into useless parts etc. My mind likes to suggest crazy and wild things with no back up, so it's just thought of another one! Maybe the shattered plains were created by shattering of an honorblade... we know the stoneshamans have them but did it say ALL  of them? That would be cool. Doubt it though, i'm just rambling.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Velvet Thunder

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, Velvet Thunder said:

My mind likes to suggest crazy and wild things with no back up, so it's just thought of another one! Maybe the shattered plains were created by shattering of an honorblade... we know the stoneshamans have them but did it say ALL  of them? That would be cool. Doubt it though, i'm just rambling.

Interesting idea but yeah, we do know where they all are. Taravangian's lie to Szeth about a stolen blade tells us that they have seven of the things, plus the one that Szeth is carrying at the time (Jezrien's). The other two are accounted for by Taln (the Shin never had it, we don't know who's got it right now) and Nale (who went back for his at some point).

[Velvet Thunder he/him]

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Interesting idea but yeah, we do know where they all are. Taravangian's lie to Szeth about a stolen blade tells us that they have seven of the things, plus the one that Szeth is carrying at the time (Jezrien's). The other two are accounted for by Taln (the Shin never had it, we don't know who's got it right now) and Nale (who went back for his at some point).

Ah a shame, but thanks! Time for more outlandish claims on what caused it... hmmmm... i'll do some thinking!  

[Toby_H]

We must be cautious about what we "know". When a WoB tells us something we should take it as absolute, though possibly encrypted. But when Taravangian tells us something, we must only accept it "as far as Taravangian knows"... And I highly doubt he's visited the Stone Shamans vaults to verify what blades they hold...

 

Don't get me wrong, Taravangian is a brilliant dude (or was that day) and has incredible insight, but his knowledge is fallible.

[Weltall]

Taravangian's lie indicates that he thinks they have them all, Szeth's response confirms it. He's the one who brings up 'the other seven'.