[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 minutes ago, Asrael said:

Is a  red wedding  dress so unusual??

I think this is why people are.. apprehensive/dislike it. People don't really like associating red with weddings anymore.
As for the people saying it should be white instead, they are just traditionalist and don't get the alien vibe from Roshar(at least, not in the chapter and a half that they've read up to that scene) Not all of us are active on here/reread the books in preparation for a sequel.

[Khyrindor he/him]

1 minute ago, Elena said:

I immediately thought the same thing, then decided that since Jasnah is sounding so obvious now ('heretic') then she's probably not it. The reminders that the book should not exist. It's addressed to the women reading this, which sounds odd to me. Sure, women read, but they read to men. Books are not intended for one gender only; men have dictated books and men have had books read to them. Both gender consume reading material albeit in different ways, and it is such an accepted fact of Voring culture that it seems so odd to remark on it in such a 'sharp' way, so early into the book. This remarks makes me think the writer is overly conscious of gender roles, wants to drive home the point that is women who read. We know most books in Voring countries aren't addressed to a general (male and female) audience; this is why scribes leave notes and commentary for each other. So I am almost certain that the writer must be a man.

To make an example - I live in an overwhelmingly majority Catholic country. Priests are men and that is a fact. It's an universal thruth - much like Vorin women reading and writing, really. If you walk into a church it will be a man giving the sermon. I don't even think about it nor I comment on it because it is obvious to me. Someone from another country with different religious demographics may remark on it. Someone wishing to challenge this fundamental Church norm would probably remark on it as well. That particular turn of phrase, to me, sounds A LOT as if a man had wrote it. It's driving home the point that women are the custodians of the written word in a way a woman likely wouldn't, because it'd be superfluous otherwise. It's saying 'I'm here, I'm writing this book even though I should not, get used to it'. It's a challenge.

It also explains the heretic bit, definitely. A man who learned how to write would immediately be branded an heretic, and you know Dalinar is well on his way to heresy already.

Dalinar would be my second guess, but I don't think Sanderson is trying to hide who's writing it, nor does he need to. I thought it was Dalinar in the first three chapters, but the reference to being thought dead, and it all starting when the writer saw into the Cognitive Realm, that has to be Jasnah. Dalinar's journey definitely didn't start with a glimpse into the Realms (that we know of), nor does he seem interested in the scholarly nature of the Realms as we know Jasnah to be.

I briefly entertained the notion that we are being mislead, but I don't think Brandon would do that without reason, so I will remain believing that it's Jasnah for the time being.

 

Also, note that I'm still reading through the first six pages so I haven't had a look at everything else people have said.

[+robardin he/him]

Scanning all the replies I see most of what I took away has already been said:

I'm thinking Jasnah is the writer of the chapter headings, but it's so obvious that she would be the "heretic" who'd hung between the Physical Realm and Shadesmar (even using the term "Shadesmar" which only Jasnah had seemed to know, teaching it to Shallan)... That she's probably not.

Dalinar is the "first in millenia", not the first ever, to bond the Stormfather. OK. But isn't the Stormfather a Splinter of Honor? As in, before Odium killed Honor, there was no Stormfather; or that Honor created a mega-spren early on?

The Stormfather said to Navani: "You have broken oaths before". Who does not deny it. Is this something I've forgotten, or a new tidbit? Seems like nobody else knows, so this must be new, though Dalinar and others didn't exactly pick up on it, so perhaps it's not something secret to Navani but simply not yet revealed to us, the readers.

So Kaladin still considers Moash his "friend", and is trying not to think about his betrayal. Even after Moash knowingly tried to kill him with priceless Shards Kaladin bequeathed on him. Of course, Kaladin would be glad to punch Roshone for reasons completely his own, but that he said "this is for Moash" while doing it was pretty telling.

Even more, I wonder where Elhokar's path is leading to now. He's weak and ineffectual but not stupid: he can see that Dalinar has pretty much officially sidelined him.

For someone who's sworn "to unite instead of divide", Dalinar is doing some pretty controversial and divisive things: openly seizing power from Elhokar, marrying his sister-in-law in defiance of the ardentia, and talking openly of what the ardents have called "blasphemous" in saying his visions proclaim that the Almighty is dead, and by the Almighty's own admission, which is like a twofold blasphemy right there.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by robardin

[king of nowhere]

46 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

This is actually quite impressive. 90 miles (144 km), would be roughly 30 miles (48 km) per day. Without Stormlight. You can walk that in the first day maybe, but for 3 days in a row... Makes me wonder if KR are stronger than normal men due to the Nahel bond, even without stormlight. He doesn't look tired enough to not have slept in 3 days, just depressed (nothing new there). He also had to stay still during the Everstorm. Could just be a mundane explanation such as he is in good shape, and stubborn, but could also be something more? 

it is impressive for us sedentary people, but a well trained men can do that easily. men have impressive endurance compared to other similar animals. every physically able person can learn to run marathons with some training. kaladin is a soldier accustomed to marching. 50 km per day is within his capabilities.

1 hour ago, Elena said:

YES! Also his grand introduction - a man from the capital, haughty and refined. Now Kaladin sees him from what he is, a small fish and a petty bully.

Speaking of, I'm curious about Laral - I'm assuming she'll show up in the next chapter. I've always liked her a lot, and I hope being married to Roshone and at such a young age didn't mess her up too much.

it is also in keeping with the general fact that kaladin has grown much. he remembered other people as big, but he is now bigger than they are. the town soldiers were strong and intimidating, but now that kaladin fought with real soldiers he knows them to be third-rate. roshone was the height of fashion in town because he was the only lighteyes, but now kaladin has been around highprinces, he knows fashion much better. I am surprised there was no remark about the castle itself being smaller than kalafin remembered.

54 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I guess the fate of Shshshs will be revealed in the last Dalinar's flashbacks. And it will be paralleled with present time heroic deeds of Dalinar. If to speculate, id say well see Dalinar doing horrible things to save Shshshs, while present day Dalinar will save Navani in a much more adult and epic way. 

Well, id speculate even further. That most likely won't happen but giving the direction Dalinar goes (The Beast without a control -> the Human in a full self-control), id say we will see him killing Shshshs in anger and blood drive (Thrill) during the fight against those who kidnapped her. Then in present, Dalinar tragically lets Navani die bounded by his oaths, suppressing his anger and inner beast, to save everyone else. That will be his sacrifice and burden but also will show him grown and matured.

I hope not, I like navani.

[Elena she/her]

19 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Dalinar would be my second guess, but I don't think Sanderson is trying to hide who's writing it, nor does he need to.

See, I wish I could be this optimistic, but the Mistborn epigraphs gave me trust issues

[Bean Delphiki he/him]

I cant wait to watch Roshone die ... is that just me? XD

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

But isn't the Stormfather a Splinter of Honor? As in, before Odium killed Honor, there was no Stormfather; or that Honor created a mega-spren early on?

The Rider of Storms(Listener name for the Stormfather) predates the Shards arrival. He may even be as old as Roshar itself if Adonalsium consciously created the Parshendi when he made Roshar(allowing Spren to come into existence because of thinking life). He is "as old as the Highstorms" according the the Coppermind.

When Honor arrived, he co-opted things. Stormlight, Highstorms, the Stormfather himself, etc.. Surgebinding is the only thing that we know came after Honor arrived.

Also, no. The Stormfather merged with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast when Honor died. He's not a splinter at all, IIRC.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

IMO, Kaladin still thinks of Moash as "friend" so that it hurts him when Kaladin and Moash have to face off in battle later on in the series.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 minutes ago, Bean Delphiki said:

I cant wait to watch Roshone die ... is that just me? XD

I think he will last a while longer, probably to be a part of Kaladins character development. It wouldn't surprise me if he became likeable, only to immediately be killed by Voidbringers afterwards.

A Roshone POV wouldn't be surprising either.

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

The Rider of Storms(Listener name for the Stormfather) predates the Shards arrival. He may even be as old as Roshar itself if Adonalsium consciously created the Parshendi when he made Roshar(allowing Spren to come into existence because of thinking life). He is "as old as the Highstorms" according the the Coppermind.

When Honor arrived, he co-opted things. Stormlight, Highstorms, the Stormfather himself, etc.. Surgebinding is the only thing that we know came after Honor arrived.

Also, no. The Stormfather merged with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast when Honor died. He's not a splinter at all, IIRC.

Ah, that's why I was confused - I had conflicting memories of the Stormfather's nature.

The Stormfather himself describes himself as "the memory [of the Almighty], now that he is gone", which I thought was a description of his genesis, rather than a grafted-on thing or the result of a merger.

[Elena she/her]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I think he will last a while longer, probably to be a part of Kaladins character development. It wouldn't surprise me if he became likeable, only to immediately be killed by Voidbringers afterwards.

A Roshone POV wouldn't be surprising either.

I adore this and I'd love to read it, but also... Roshone has a wooden foot, his skin looks like melted wax, and he doesn't know how to dress. Can't wait for him to drop dead and free Laral already!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, robardin said:

The Stormfather himself describes himself as "the memory [of the Almighty], now that he is gone", which I thought was a description of his genesis, rather than a grafted-on thing or the result of a merger.

I figured that was "Honor" talking, personally. A merged consciousness ought to have some shared memories, and that's a pretty apt way to describe a cognitive shadow to somebody without going too deep into details.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

 

6 minutes ago, Bean Delphiki said:

I cant wait to watch Roshone die ... is that just me? XD

 I was actually surprised that the 2 lines we got from Roshone seemed kind of mature. He didn't sneer at Kaladin or treat him like absolute trash as soon as he walked in. Again, could be Kaladin has grown so much he doesn't even notice lighteyes sneering any more. Some in other forums are saying Kaladin was impulsive and rash, but the impression I got was actually one of utter control. Except for the half hour he was eating soup and hugging his mom . But that was just consiciously relaxing before getting ready for his next lap.

[JoyBlu she/her]

My first impressions of Chapter 6 Four Lifetimes (I still haven't read any other posts in this thread yet -- but I'm anxious to read what the rest of you are thinking!)

 

Quote

 

I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.

I needed to write it anyway.

I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims

I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written.  I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar--the realm of the spren--and beyond.

I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.

 

So who is Jasnah talking about when she says "some who saw further than I did"  That doesn't make sense to me now.  Taravangian? Who else is seeing the future? I'm excited for Jasnah to come back.  She has been dead for so long (almost the entire Words of Radiance book) that I didn't even consider what her reaction would be to her mom marrying Dalinar until now.  That will be interesting.  Jasnah isn't listed as a POV in part one, so who will see it from? But we do have her writings . . . . . And why is Jasnah writing something called Oathbringer?

 

Finally I get to see how the rest of Kaladin's journey plays out.  I assumed that since there was a chapter break, that the POV would change.  I guessed incorrectly.

Quote

long hair, with a curl to it

Kaladin's description sounds so dreamy! But yet people are not recognizing him. He is just too handsome.

I enjoyed the "memory lane"

The fact that Kaladin couldn't relax and enjoy the moment with his parents without telling them that he let Tien die, says a lot about his guilt. 

Brandon Sanderson resurrects another character!  Kaladin is alive! That just made me laugh.  Yup, it is a Sanderson book all right.

Quote

“Oh, Kaladin,” Hesina said, kneeling down beside him and pulling him into an embrace. “We got your letter, but over a year ago they told us you had died as well.”

 

So I'm pretty sure I'm missing something / or should remember something about the significance of the Sas & Shash -- but I can't recall anything.

Quote

. “Sas glyph, so it happened here in the princedom. They probably told you he’d died to save you the shame of the truth. And then the shash brand

 

4 Lifetimes

Soldier

Slave

Captain

Radiant

-- That was just beautiful.  I was almost in tears.  Very poetic.

 

Who is Mara?  I don't remember her. I think she is new.  Have we been introduced to her yet?  Is that the something else Kaladin needs to know? Is Kaladin's spot now dedicated to Mara?  What is being hinted at in the following lines?  Has Kaladin been replaced? Will that make it easier for him to leave his family and return to Bridge 4 now?

Quote

“But our home still stands. We had to dedicate your spot to something else, Kal, but we can make space for you.”  (Hesina)

he can go without a surgeon. Unless he assumes Mara can take over after just a few years of apprenticeship.” (Lirin)

We can rebuild, be a family again. And there’s something else you need to know about. We—”  (Hesina)

 

And what about Syl's quote

Quote

“The winds are of Honor,”

“Besides, there was… another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…” She smiled, and zipped away.

What does that mean for our windrunner? And the winds in the storms -- shouldn't the directions of a storm be controlled by the wind?   And who in the cosmere is behind that other voice? Who would say  “They’re like I remember them.” .  My only guess is Tien.  Can't wait to see what other people's thoughts on this are.

 

And my favorite line out this chapter?

Quote

“Storms, boy. What did you do? Hit a lighteyes?”

I just love this so much!!!!!  It is foreshadowing, and reflective (in fact -- he hit & killed a lighteyes in shardplate), and so clever and so funny.  Kaladin is still loyal to Moash.  Hitting Roshone was idiotic, but we know it will all turn out ok.  A very satisfying ending. I just wish I could turn the page and keep reading.

 

 

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 6: Four Lifetimes

shockspren (pale yellow triangles breaking and re-forming)
 

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 6: Four Lifetimes

dark brown eyes (Lirin)

hair was greyer (Lirin)

pale yellow triangles (shockspren)

light yellow eyes (Roshone)

[DSC01 he/him]

I have not read all 7 pages of comments,so apologies if I am repeating an already stated theory, but I am getting a strong impression from the in-universe Oathbringer that Dalinar is dead at the time of its writing. I think that it is a biographical account of his last years, as he unites the nations against the threat of the Desolation. I suspect Jasnah to be the author, but if she is not, it is almost certainly not Dalinar. Poetically naming the book Oathbringer to refer both to the man and the sword he carried for many years is not something that I would expect of Dalinar. It is not a certainty, but it is seems much more likely that a book so named would be about a great man after his death than about someone still living. If he doesn't die at the end of this volume, I expect that he will by the end of the first five.

[sooyangi]

2 hours ago, ccstat said:

While unlikely given how little stormlight is available, what if the Shallan we've seen so far is actually a lightweaving attached to Pattern? It would explain her silences. If so, what is she actually off doing?

She was actually there in the elevator with Dalinar as caught per @Toaster Retribution! She was only mentioned in passing though. But like both of you have mentioned, I am curious as to why Shallan is sort of in the background at the moment. I'm sure we'll find out soon what she's been doing!

Side note: Like others have mentioned, I also found it very cool that Syl's aunt hunts gloomspren and that they're rare. Are they rare because there are spren that hunt them or are they rare because people are rarely as gloomy as Kaladin? 

[+robardin he/him]

Yeah I wouldn't say that the "two lines" that we see Roshone say to Kaladin raises my opinion of him in any way.

He likely both knew Tien's fate and remembered Kaladin's reason for signing up in the army in the first place - so saying "I see they didn't teach you to keep yourself in the army" is both a dig at Kaladin's slave brand, and a reminder of his failure to save Tien's life.

And that he supposes Kaladin got enslaved and... enshashed? for "hitting a lighteyes" is, even for a lighteyes, an amazingly arrogant thing to say. "Hitting", not even "injuring", a lighteyes, warrants slavery and a shash label? There's gotta be a verb for that. (I'm picturing Foghorn Leghorn saying, "I say, I mean, I say, suh! Ah demands shashtifaction!")

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by robardin

[+Wax he/him]

7 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I am getting a strong impression from the in-universe Oathbringer that Dalinar is dead at the time of its writing. I think that it is a biographical account of his last years

WoB - Dalinar does not die in OB, but it can be painful.  As each book is revealed as a published work already, so that doesn't make sense.

I am also wondering if shshsh... wrote it.

Edited September 5, 2017 by axcellence

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

9 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I have not read all 7 pages of comments,so apologies if I am repeating an already stated theory, but I am getting a strong impression from the in-universe Oathbringer that Dalinar is dead at the time of its writing. I think that it is a biographical account of his last years, as he unites the nations against the threat of the Desolation. I suspect Jasnah to be the author, but if she is not, it is almost certainly not Dalinar. Poetically naming the book Oathbringer to refer both to the man and the sword he carried for many years is not something that I would expect of Dalinar. It is not a certainty, but it is seems much more likely that a book so named would be about a great man after his death than about someone still living. If he doesn't die at the end of this volume, I expect that he will by the end of the first five.

What gives you the impression of Dalinar being dead? 

Also, @axcellence the WoB didn't say that Dalinar would survive. It was something in the vein of this:

Questioner: I love Dalinar, dont kill him!

Brandon: You will enjoy Oathbringer (evil grin).

Mind, this is not the WoB, it is how I remember it, so take it with three spoons of salt and a cup of orange. But its late, and I won't WoB hunt now, but I think my memory is pretty on point this time. In either case, Brandon never outright said: Dalinar survives book 3. He did imply it, but he didn't say it outright.

@Extesian master of WoBs, can you find the WoB, if you have time?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Khyrindor he/him]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

This is actually quite impressive. 90 miles (144 km), would be roughly 30 miles (48 km) per day. Without Stormlight. You can walk that in the first day maybe, but for 3 days in a row... Makes me wonder if KR are stronger than normal men due to the Nahel bond, even without stormlight. He doesn't look tired enough to not have slept in 3 days, just depressed (nothing new there). He also had to stay still during the Everstorm. Could just be a mundane explanation such as he is in good shape, and stubborn, but could also be something more? 

Other factors could include the lower gravity and higher oxygen content, as well as measurements being different on Roshar.

 

Edit: WHOOOOP 1000th UPVOTE! Thanks guys!

Edited September 5, 2017 by Khyrindor

[king of nowhere]

6 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I have not read all 7 pages of comments,so apologies if I am repeating an already stated theory, but I am getting a strong impression from the in-universe Oathbringer that Dalinar is dead at the time of its writing. I think that it is a biographical account of his last years, as he unites the nations against the threat of the Desolation. I suspect Jasnah to be the author, but if she is not, it is almost certainly not Dalinar. Poetically naming the book Oathbringer to refer both to the man and the sword he carried for many years is not something that I would expect of Dalinar. It is not a certainty, but it is seems much more likely that a book so named would be about a great man after his death than about someone still living. If he doesn't die at the end of this volume, I expect that he will by the end of the first five.

From the tone, I get the feeling that the book is written either at the end of the whole story (after all, jasnah is rather busy right now, i doubt she has the time to write a storming book), or after something particular happens. So, it does not really iimply death of dalinar; I'd say dalinar has even odds of making it to the end of the five books without croaking. in the second five, he'll probably be either dead of old age, or very old anyway.

[What's a Seawolf?]

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think he will last a while longer, probably to be a part of Kaladins character development. It wouldn't surprise me if he became likeable, only to immediately be killed by Voidbringers afterwards.

A Roshone POV wouldn't be surprising either.

I think Roshone's fate will either be exactly as you describe, or he will become a Radiant.

The latter doesn't mean he avoids dying either, just that he will probably be around a little while longer than he otherwise would.

 

(Side note:  If Roshone does become a Radiant, and Gaz IS some sort of squire or proto-radiant himself... Kaladin is probably just going to throw his hands up and fly off into space.)

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

And that he supposes Kaladin got enslaved and... enshashed? for "hitting a lighteyes" is, even for a lighteyes, an amazingly arrogant thing to say. "Hitting", not even "injuring", a lighteyes, warrants slavery and a shash label?

Thats actually very likely a slavery offense. In TWoK they say Leyten was sent to the bridges because the strap of the breastplate of a lighteyes broke and he died, so they sent the blacksmith apprentice to certain death (who hadn't even done the breastplate). Even mentions the blacksmith likely kept extra apprentices just for those cases.

Edited September 5, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

So who is Jasnah talking about when she says "some who saw further than I did"  That doesn't make sense to me now.

This is actually the line that swayed me towards Renarin as the author. 

If we figure it is a man, then who do we know who "sees" far? And he already has enough of a scholarly bent that he's been pushed toward the ardent by his family in the past. 

[Andy92]

The heritic part of the epigraphs is probably along the lines of writing about how the Almighty isn't really God, simply a Shardholder. Dalinar has already realized this from his visions, and Jasnah would have easily picked up on the history of Tanavast after talking to Wit. And who knows what she saw or who she met in the Cognitive Realm. 

I do think Dalinar or Jasnah seem like the obvious choices for being the author, but it is Sanderson...so I'm torn lol.