Hoids Feruchemy

[Delightful]

Posting for a Hebrew speaker:

Allomancy comes from Preservation and Feruchemy from Ruin. They only existed after Rashek, but Hemalurgy always existed, correct?

So Allomancy can be gained through genetics, a Lerasium bead, or Hemalurgy. 

Hemalurgy can be gained through spikes only. 

Feruchemy can be gained through genetics or hemalurgy only. 

We know that Hoid uses Feruchemy to be at the right place at the right time.

If all of the above is correct, where does Hoid get his Feruchemy from?

(Delightfuls addition: hemalurgy doesn't seem his style). 

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Delightful said:

Allomancy comes from Preservation and Feruchemy from Ruin. They only existed after Rashek, but Hemalurgy always existed, correct?

The only "new" system was Allomancy, and that was only new in frequency and power. Alendi himself was a seeker. 

Rashek and the other Terrismen used Feruchemy to aid Alendi on his journey, and it was a part of the Terris culture then. 

Rashek didn't create any "new" powers. He suppressed Feruchemy, and made Allomancy much more prevelant with the introduction of stronger Allomantic genes from the beads. 

14 minutes ago, Delightful said:

We know that Hoid uses Feruchemy to be at the right place at the right time.

If all of the above is correct, where does Hoid get his Feruchemy from?

We know that he uses something similar to Feruchemical Fortune (cadmium? Chromium? I forget which) to know where he needs to be, but we don't know the actual mechanism. 

This is confusing because originally, Brandon said "Hoid uses Feruchemy" and I can find that WoB easily. He later dialed that back though and said it's the same underlying principles but something else... 

So we don't know how he does it or how he gained the power. 

Edit: found it. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#18

Quote

QUESTION

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

QUESTION

Is Chromium involved in that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using Chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Calderis

[Landis963 he/him]

Hoid does not use Feruchemy.  The exact words Brandon used to describe Hoid's plot sense were "He uses an unknown application of Feruchemy."  Era 2 then told us that Chromium Feruchemy stores Fortune.  Dialogue from SH plus other followup WoBs confirmed that Fortune, not Feruchemy, is the mechanic at hand.  

[+hwiles]

Right. The IRE (who appear to be Elantrians) also make reference to "tapping Fortune," however, at that point in the Cosmere timeline, the feruchemic metal for fortune hadn't even been discovered yet.

The IRE also use their magic system to create a device to confer tremendous amounts of what appears to be blank Connection to the user.

Basically, manipulation of spiritual aspects is not unique to feruchemy. Other systems, which we know very little about, exist that can also increase these attributes in the user.

Edit; dang, ninjad...

Edited July 21, 2017 by hwiles

[Oversleep]

Here is a compilation of WoBs about Hoidsense:

Quote

[2011] He may be capable of a little bit of foreseeing of certain events, not what?s going to happen, but he may need ot be in a certain place in a certain time.
[2013]
Q:Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?
A:He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.
[2014] He has a surprising ability to be in the right place at the right time in the Cosmere
[2014]
Q:Is Hoid drawn to novel-worthy plots? Or does he ever just show up in a completely "normal" time/place, with no ramifications on the cosmere, shards, etc.?
A:He is drawn to places specifically because of what's happening in those worlds. He is there and he is meddling.
[2016]
Q: Why did Hoid not take both beads of lerasium?
A: Hoid has an innate ability to know where he needs to be and what he needs to do.
[2016]
Q:You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.
A:Yes, and usually without knowing why.
Q:Is Chromium involved in that?
A:Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using Chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

You can see the idea evolved from "feruchemy" to "fortune manipulation".
BTW, this:

46 minutes ago, Delightful said:

Hemalurgy can be gained through spikes only. 

is not true. You do not 'gain' Hemalurgy; something other can be gained *by* Hemalurgy. But the actual ability to use Hemalurgy? Anyone can do that. Ruin doesn't care:

So Hemalurgy can be done by anyone anywhere.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Oversleep

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Where does Feruchemy come from then? Is that a creation of both Ruin and Preservation? It can't predate the Shards because... well, Scadrial doesn't predate the Shards.

[Merrickz he/him]

Allomancy is of Preservation

Hermalugy is of Ruin

And Feruchemy is a mix created from the 2 shards interacting, not just Ruin

[Weltall]

Just to add, the WoB where Brandon says that Hoid uses Feruchemy for his 'Hoidsense' is noted as being a paraphrase, so it's possible that Brandon's original response was more along the lines of 'he uses something like Feruchemy' which got remembered without the qualifier. Or Brandon could have changed his mind between that Q&A and now.

To go to the original question, there is another way to obtain Allomantic and Feruchemical powers. Spoilers for Bands of Mourning in case you haven't read it yet:

Spoiler

The Southern Scadrians have the means to grant powers 'technologically' via medallions that anyone can wear. The exact mechanism by which they're created is still the subject of speculation but Brandon has said he'll explain it in the next book. You do need someone who already has the desired powers as part of the creation process so medallions can't be created from nothing but there seems to be no effective limit on how many can be made. We've seen evidence of Feruchemy-granting medallions and by implication we know that they could also be used to grant Allomancy.

 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

16 hours ago, Delightful said:

Allomancy comes from Preservation and Feruchemy from Ruin. They only existed after Rashek, but Hemalurgy always existed, correct?

I'm fairly sure that @Delightful meant:

Quote

Allomancy comes from Preservation and Hemalurgy from Ruin. They only existed after Rashek, but Feruchemy always existed, correct?

To which I'd respond that Allomancy came from Preservation after Rashek handed out the Lerasium beads to specific people. As for how it is attained, that steps from the Lerasium. You either need to swallow a bead, inherit the trait (probably watered down too), or steal it (Hemalurgy). Regardless, it stems from Lerasium, and any ability with Allomancy will have a trail leading back to someone eating Lerasum (or it's alloys). Now, technically Allomancy probably existed way before Rashek, as the beads were not created at that time. But since no one had eaten any of the beads, it just wasn't being used.

I think that Hemalurgy also existed for as long, even if it wasn't used until Rashek either, as until then no one knew of it's usage. I'm not sure if Ruin created it directly, or simply twisted it to give himself a back door. It, unlike Allomancy and Feruchemy, can be used by anyone, does not have a source (like lerasium for Allomancy), and is not passed down genetically.

As for Feruchemy, I think it has existed for as long as the other two. It was in use for a much longer time than the other two, as Rashek was a Feruchemist. If it has a source similar to Lerasium for Allomancy, I don't know what that might be.

My theory is that the three magic systems of Roshar came into existence either during the creation of the Planet, when their perpendicularities popped up, or when the Scadrial humans were created. Feruchemy stems from the balance of the two shards, which makes me think that it is practically Harmony's system (which is fitting, as he was a Feruchemist himself). It is an end neutral system, neither of Preservation or of Ruin, but of both. The exception being when it is used with Allomancy. Allomancy is of Preservation and is end positive (go figure), while Hemalurgy is end negative and of Ruin. But just because the magic systems stem from the two shards does not mean that they designed their respective systems, though that might be the case, and we know that Ruin put a back door in Hemalurgy that allowed him to control/twist spiked individuals.

 

And Hoid's Feruchemy? As @Weltall mentioned, the current opinion is that Hoid is not a Feruchemist. Instead he either uses a different system to access Fortune, or he uses unkeyed metal-minds.

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

To which I'd respond that Allomancy came from Preservation after Rashek handed out the Lerasium beads to specific people. As for how it is attained, that steps from the Lerasium. You either need to swallow a bead, inherit the trait (probably watered down too), or steal it (Hemalurgy). Regardless, it stems from Lerasium, and any ability with Allomancy will have a trail leading back to someone eating Lerasum (or it's alloys). Now, technically Allomancy probably existed way before Rashek, as the beads were not created at that time. But since no one had eaten any of the beads, it just wasn't being used.

Allomancy was already in the system before Rashek handed out the beads. Mistings were exceptionally rare and weak but they already existed.

Alendi was a seeker and that's how he detected the pulses from the well. Same as Vin.

I've been searching for a WoB about it and can't find it and it's very frustrating.

 The three systems were created by the interactions of the Shards investiture and the planet. They are all derived from Preservation and Ruin, and Scadrial itself. 

@StrikerEZmade a post a couple weeks ago about multi-shard magic systems and how they developed and I'm going to just quote the relevant part of my post from there here. 

On 7/7/2017 at 1:45 PM, Calderis said:

First things first: This is just my opinion and I have nothing to support it. 

I think Scadrial is different because it was created but maybe not for the exact reasons you might assume. I'll come back to that in a bit.

So Honor and Cultivation were lovers, and came to Roshar together. Roshar already had native life bonding to spren, and so (at least I believe) had already established its own rudimentary magic system using Adonalsium's investiture using bonds as its focus (again, my opinion). Considering the nature of Honor and its use of bonds, I believe he intentionally chose Roshar due to that focus. 

So arriving at a world with a preexisting magic system, I believe that they were able to invest and expand that system, but not create an entirely new one. They were able to create new spren, and create stronger effects by those spren bonding new entities, but they were constrained by the existing system. 

I think this may be why Ati and Leras chose to create a new world in the first place. By creating a world, they made a blank slate that allowed them to create the magic with much more freedom than a preexisting system allowed. 

From the annotations we know that Ruin intentionally worked the hole into hemalurgy that allows for control of spike people/creatures. 

WoA ch. 54 annotations, spoilered section 

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-mistborn-2-chapter-fifty-four/

Quote

When I was designing the Three Metallurgic Arts for these books, I knew that I wanted Hemalurgy to have a built in flaw. A flaw that, as a deconstructionalist might say, was created intentionally and relied upon by the very force hoping it won’t exploit it.

It was important to me that Ruin eventually be brought down, in part, because of things he did or flaws in his power. Preservation could simply build into the humans he created an innate goodness, then expect them to do as he hoped that they would. Ruin had to be able to directly corrupt and influence people. He felt himself stronger because he could MAKE them do exactly as he wanted.

The problem is, for his magic to work–for him to exercise control over someone–he had to leave a hole, so to speak, that other people could wiggle through and use. And so the entire ‘control the koloss’ plot sequence in Book Two was intended to set up Hemalurgy, and in a way predict Ruin’s fall.

Now, the only problem in all of this (for the heroes, at least) is that when Ruin actually got free, he was so strong that it was all but impossible for anyone else to ‘get through’ the holes that he had left in his Hemalurgists. But it wasn’t impossible. In a way, the foreshadowing in this book was meant to lay the seed that Ruin’s control of his minions is not absolute. And an individual who wanted to resist him had that potential.

So while the system were not outright designed by they shards, they were able to be manipulated by them. 

I think all three developed in tandem, especially because of the nature of Feruchemy as a middle ground. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

HELLO PEOPLE I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!!! My WoB is useful here! 

Hoid IS a feruchemist (of sorts). He has more unkeyed metalminds  I can vouch for that, even if I can't find the transcript. 

[Oversleep]

9 hours ago, The Flash said:

HELLO PEOPLE I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!!! My WoB is useful here! 

Hoid IS a feruchemist (of sorts). He has more unkeyed metalminds  I can vouch for that, even if I can't find the transcript. 

It was written in somebody's book.

It does not mean he's a Feruchemist though.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

It was written in somebody's book.

It does not mean he's a Feruchemist though.

No. But he can use feruchemy. And I got it myself so I like to quote it around whenever I can. 

[+Extesian he/him]

2 hours ago, The Flash said:

No. But he can use feruchemy. And I got it myself so I like to quote it around whenever I can. 

I have been summoned!

Quote

2017-02-17 Boskone Friday Signing

[03:54]
The Flash: Hoid. Does he have more unkeyed metalminds?
A: Hoid has access to lots of different things, so, yes he does.

Source

 

[Weltall]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

Alendi was a seeker and that's how he detected the pulses from the well. Same as Vin.

I've been searching for a WoB about it and can't find it and it's very frustrating.

Hero of Ages Annotations (Chapter 62)

Quote

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. “Ah,” you might say, “but I thought that you said Allomancy didn’t exist before those beads.” That isn’t 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Weltall

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Hero of Ages Annotations (Chapter 62)

 

Thank you! I knew I'd read it and didn't remember where. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

13 hours ago, Extesian said:

I have been summoned!

 

Thank you! 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

To the original question, "where does Houd get his feruchemy"

I'm not sure of the exact process, but remember that Hoid has access to god metals. We know for a fact that he nabbed a bead of Lerasium. And he worldhopped using the pits of hathsin before, so he would have access to Atium.

I'm not sure the exact mechanics of this, but I'd guess that with both of those metals (possibly alloyed) you could gain access to feruchemy.