A Slight Flaw in The Diagram

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I'll make this brief.

But I believe the point I am making is somewhat significant, because it indicates that the diagram may not be what it seems.

The stated purpose of the diagram is to ensure that some small fragment of humanity survives the desolation, no?

And yet... In the diagram, Taravangian implies that he at least partially grasps the implications of worldhoppers on Roshar.

So... The diagram is supposedly meant to be all about making sure humanity doesn't go extinct when Roshar gets destroyed... But Taravangian already knows that humanity exists on other worlds, and so would not go extinct even if Odium totally destroyed Roshar.

Now, I get that saving some of the lives on Roshar is still a worthy goal... But the diagram does not indicate that Taravangian is simply trying to do damage control and salvage some of Roshar. The diagram indicates that everything is irrelevant but the survival of humanity. Those words sound a lot like Taravangian believes that if Roshar is destroyed, humanity will no longer exist.

 

There are really only two conclusions I can make of this. Either

1. Taravangian realizes other worlds exist, but believes that Odium will be able to destroy those worlds easily once he destroys Roshar

or

2. The diagram contradicts itself, and is highly suspect. Why is that suspect? Well, either taravangian made a pretty dumb mistake while he was super super super intelligent, or something manipulated him.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[The One Who Connects he/him]

25 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

And yet... In the diagram, Taravangian implies that he at least partially grasps the implications of worldhoppers on Roshar.

Mind posting the specific passage(s) that imply Worldhoppers? It'd change how we interpret them.

---

For instance, I only remember the one with the vague "could this be Mraize?" footnote.

Quote

West Wall Psalm of Wonders

“    But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?”

—Paragraph 8^[16]

A note by Adrotagia accompanies this excerpt asking whether it refers to Mraize.^[16]

Conclusion 2) Since I don't see any other passages that imply other worlds, I don't think the Diagram contradicts itself. Taravangian might have misinterpreted what he saw when "the world opened to him" though.

Can't directly refute Conclusion 1 though, even though I don't like it. He thinks he can shelter humanity to outlast Odium, but just gives up on other planets who don't have Shardic conflict on them after a small glimpse?

[Weltall]

We know that Mraize is a worldhopper (albeit one who's a native Rosharan) but we don't know that Taravangian knows that. If that passage does refer to Mraize then it doesn't necessarily require that Mr T knows about other worlds. And if it turns out that passage refers to Hoid instead (which I think it does)... well, that still doesn't require that Taravangian know about other worlds, or know enough about them to consider that enough to 'save humanity' in the event of Odium's release.

One could also speculate that since humans on Roshar have unique traits and culture, he wants to preserve those to some extent, not just the idea of humanity generally.

Note that none of this is to say that Taravangian's current plan and the Diagram aren't the result of outside influence. I have little trouble imagining that in any number of permutations.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Weltall

[Calderis he/him]

In addition to the the points already made, and operating under the assumption that Taravangian is aware that other worlds exist, that still doesn't mean Taravangian understands enough about Realmatics to implement an escape plan. Knowing there are other worlds and knowing how to reach them are two separate things. 

I don't think that in itself present presents a conflict. 

[Djarskublar he/him]

I dunno, I like the thought, if not necessarily the exact conclusion. I had been wondering if that section meant he discovered worldhoppers were a thing since I first read it. I hadn't put two and two together like the OP did, though. Maybe a better way to conclude would be that his genius self decided that the people on Roshar don't actually matter (remember, he was willing to ask people to commit suicide for his eugenics program on one particularly intelligent day). His damage control is an attempt to either weaken Odium, or keep him trapped on-world. His goal is to make it so that other worlds don't have to deal with Odium. He shouldn't know about other Shards, so he might have thought that all the other worlds would be mostly defenseless. I'm not sure what he could have been thinking, but I like the thought that he doesn't think humanity on Roshar needs to survive the crisis.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

57 minutes ago, Weltall said:

We know that Mraize is a worldhopper (albeit one who's a native Rosharan) but we don't know that Taravangian knows that.

The footnote is written by a diagramist I'm pretty sure. Very likel adrotagia.

So why would they bring up a known worldhopper in the context of this quote unless the diagramists had some notion of other worlds existing?

To me this implies that either taravangian is being intentionally deluded, or (more likely in my opinion) his plans somehow incorporate the cosmere as a whole.

I don't presume to know which specific portion of humanity taravangian means to save. Maybe he means to sacrifice Roshar for the sake of the rest of the cosmere. Maybe he intends to save part of roshar, foiling Odium and thus keeping him from moving on to destroy other planets. I can't really say what his specific plans are, but I suspect they involve more than just one planet.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

So why would they bring up a known worldhopper in the context of this quote unless the diagramists had some notion of other worlds existing?

Do the Diagrammists know, or does Adrotagia know? He's the author of this footnote after all. Maybe he knows more than he's let on, to us and to Taravangian. The intended audience of those footnotes isn't known to us, after all.

[The Sovereign]

This WoB should be considered:

 

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

How much did Super Mind Taravangian know about the Cosmere as a whole, roughly, rough estimate.

BRANDON SANDERSON

He had a little bit of knowledge. Not as much as... not as much conscious knowledge.

BLIGHTSONG

Did he guess about the three realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, he knew about the three realms. He didn't have to guess on that, he had read philosophy and things, that knowledge is there on Roshar.

TAGS

Taravangian, realmatics, Roshar,

 

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It seems strange, being only subconsciously aware of the other worlds. One would think that, seeing as this is massively significant to his plans, Taravangian would not so easily dismiss the notion that there was something else out there.

Still, if Taravangian understood that in keeping some small part of Roshar alive, he kept Odium occupied, then that would be enough for him to know the other worlds would be saved from Odium as well. I am becoming more and more sure that this is Taravangians plan.

Mind you, his plan may be imperfect. Personally I believe his plans reflect the influence and agenda of cultivation, and cultivation's intent is not necessarily perfect.

But then, neither is Honor's intent perfect. Acting "honorably" in the moment at the expense of a known greater good is in fact immoral. We can see the dangerous paths honor can go down, well evidenced in Nale's behavior before he accepted that the desolations were really happening. Honor focuses on the proper conduct in the present, and while that is often a good thing it is not always a good thing by any means. I remember once someone hypothesized that Honor would possibly let everyone die before they dishonored themselves. I suspect that Tanavast was better then that, but I do believe that Honors pure intent might actually find that action acceptable.

But I digress. Massively. Point is, I figured Taravangian would have plans that involved the whole cosmere. Sandersons quote seems to imply that this is not the case.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

But then, neither is Honor's intent perfect. Acting "honorably" in the moment at the expense of a known greater good is in fact immoral. We can see the dangerous paths honor can go down, well evidenced in Nale's behavior before he accepted that the desolations were really happening.

Nale was finding excuses to kill people, using the law as a shield, to achieve what he thought was a greater good.

That's the exact opposite of acting Honorably. 

The only actions we've seen that follow a similar logic are the Diagram itself. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Calderis

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Nale was finding excuses to kill people, using the law as a shield, to achieve what he thought was a greater good.

That's the exact opposite of acting Honorably. 

The only actions we've seen that follow a similar logic are the Diagram itself. 

But see, that's exactly it.

What is honor?

In a narrow sense, the skybreaker mentality is "honorable." Follow the law completely; everything else is irrelevant. It's holding fast to a specific code of honor: the law.

It isn't even that different from the other orders. For the windrunners, it becomes "protect people completely; everything else is irrelevant" (although obviously, that particular creed is much less dangerous, and generally leads windrunners to do good things).

I think it's a mistake to say that "honor" is perfectly equivalent to morality. I understand that both honor and morality are components of ethos, but I do believe they are distinct. Plus, wouldn't it be kind of lame in terms of story, to have Honor be some perfectly omnibenevolent force? Are there any shards that are perfectly good or perfectly evil? I really don't think so. Definitely some shards are more good or more evil than others (Honor is morally better than Odium, obviously), but none are 100% good or 100% evil.

I concede that what is honorable and what is moral are frequently the same, but they are most definitely not always the same.

Honor, I believe, is intrinsically shortsighted, intrinsically idealistic. It's part of why I believe future telling is such a tabboo on Roshar. Honor is all about if you are acting ethically in the moment. I have a suspicion that if Honor's intent was perfectly unrestricted, and not tempered by an actual moral and rational human being... It would do nothing in the case of the trolley question, and allow more people to die. Because to actively kill someone would be dishonorable. Journey before destination.

 

EDIT: On the other hand, killing to protect (which Kaladin certainly does) is fundamentally setting the destination before the journey. Killing to protect is engaging in an immoral action (murder) for the sake of a greater good (ultimately, less dead people, hopefully).

Huh. So... That basically makes no sense.

Anyway, I still hold that Honor being a perfect embodiment of good would be kind of odd, story wise. I get the feeling that Adolnasium is supposed to be a perfect embodiment of good, and that each shard only has a piece of that moral character. Odium is "divine hatred out of context" which implies that, in context, hatred is appropriate (I'm not sure I entirely agree, but moving on). Preservation can be good when its trying to save the world, but also evil when its approving of the Lord Ruler simply because he never changes. The point is, each shard represents a primal force that can at times be good, and at times be bad. I suspect that you can only truly get perfect goodness if you combine all of those shardic intents and put them in their respective contexts.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[Calderis he/him]

@Drake Marshall I see what you're saying and don't disagree. Nale was acting according to a strict code, which from his perspective was acting with a twisted form of honor. 

The intent of the Shards removed from morality could be easily abused as you say. People aren't Shardic intents though. I think Nales actions are justified to more due his insanity than by any pretense at honor. An honorable follower of the law doesn't seek loopholes that allow them to legally circumvent the law they are claiming to uphold. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Calderis

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Yes, I agree that Nale's actions are basically due to insanity. I figure that those who wield Honor's power still have a fair amount of discretion on how to act.

As you say, people aren't shardic intents. Even vessels aren't perfectly aligned with shardic intents, as evidenced by the fact that Ati actually fought against Ruin's intent, holding back some of his power even when Ruin's intent forced him to try to destroy Scadrial.

My point is more that Nale's actions, while unequivocally immoral, do not seem to be unequivocally in defiance of Honor's intent.

Well, actually, that's a few degrees of separation from my original point, but whatever.

[+Extesian he/him]

In terms of the OP, I must admit I see this as being relatively simple (not to say there’s not more to it).

Firstly, I don’t think Taravangian knew about Worldhoppers necessarily. He knew about the Realms, but there are hints to that in Roshar’s mythology, as the WoB says. But knowing about the Realms doesn’t mean you know that people can switch between them as a way to take a shortcut to other populated planets. Most places or people become Cosmere-aware long before gaining the ability to Worldhop, or even knowledge of its possibility. Plenty of magic users on Roshar get glimpses of the Cognitive Realm, which could lead to myths about it. But they don’t worldhop.

Secondly, even if he knew that there have been visitors from other planets, that’s a very, very long way from deciding that Rosharan humanity can just move to another planet. Even if he knew that it’s possible, and how it’s possible, translating that to an evacuation plan for a planet is a huge leap, and one that I think is highly unrealistic even given the reader’s level of Cosmere knowledge.

Thirdly, even if he knows there are other planets populated by humans (and knowing about Worldhoppers isn’t enough, who says they’re human), that doesn’t take away a natural sense of tribalism. Imagine if a planet-killing asteroid was heading towards Earth and we developed a spaceship that could get people, even, say, a million people, to another planet. Sure the human race would survive. But would we not do everything we can to first of all save as many people as possible and, second of all, to try to save the planet we already have? Sure, he talks about the survival of humanity, even acknowledging that a greatly lessened human race is better than none. But I think even if he knows about other populated planets, and knows he could even get part of humanity to one, he would still talk the way he does about trying to save humanity. Relying on a gene pool from a distant planet to propagate your species, or relying on evacuation of a tiny part of the population to continue the species, is pretty much Plan Z in my mind. You still go through every other option you have to save the humanity you know.

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

In addition to the the points already made, and operating under the assumption that Taravangian is aware that other worlds exist, that still doesn't mean Taravangian understands enough about Realmatics to implement an escape plan. Knowing there are other worlds and knowing how to reach them are two separate things. 

I don't think that in itself present presents a conflict. 

It would still mean that he would know that humanity as a whole wasn't at risk of extinction, though.

Well, I guess Odium getting loose might be a Cosmere-wide threat, but he really only seems interested in Shards and Heralds and such - he blew up the Shards on Sel and stuffed the pieces in the Cognitive Realm, but he didn't kill off Selish humanity when he was the only Shard there and presumably could have (he didn't even turn it into a screwed-up environment, which you can clearly do with only a relatively small fraction of Shardic power - TLR was able to push Sca

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

In terms of the OP, I must admit I see this as being relatively simple (not to say there’s not more to it).

Firstly, I don’t think Taravangian knew about Worldhoppers necessarily. He knew about the Realms, but there are hints to that in Roshar’s mythology, as the WoB says.

I think it's more than just mythological hints. Soulcasters are known and used, so there are people around who have actually been to the Cognitive Realm (at least far enough in to see it).

I agree that the ability to Worldhop through the Cognitive isn't part of Rosharan scholarly knowledge, though.

 

Quote

Relying on a gene pool from a distant planet to propagate your species, or relying on evacuation of a tiny part of the population to continue the species, is pretty much Plan Z in my mind.

The way the Diagram talks about "a seed of humanity" implies that Genius T didn't have any hope for more than a tiny part to survive, though.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The way the Diagram talks about "a seed of humanity" implies that Genius T didn't have any hope for more than a tiny part to survive, though

But that tiny part would continue to exist on their home. One their terms. 

I agree with @Extesian

[Zaineph]

18 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

2. The diagram contradicts itself, and is highly suspect. Why is that suspect? Well, either taravangian made a pretty dumb mistake while he was super super super intelligent, or something manipulated him.

I actually asked Brandon about the diagram on his book tour for WoR years ago. I think my exact question was:

"In Mistborn, we've seen Ruin altering ancient texts and even information stored in metal minds concerning prophecy. Is there something manipulating the diagram in a similar way?"

I got my first RAFO for that and he went for it pretty quickly, so I've been lead to believe that the diagram can't be explicitly trusted. Also if you think about it, why are the people of Roshar so against seeing the future and anything to do with Prophecy? I know that the church is partly to blame but could there also be an underlying reason concerning Odium?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

3 hours ago, Zaineph said:

I actually asked Brandon about the diagram on his book tour for WoR years ago. I think my exact question was:

"In Mistborn, we've seen Ruin altering ancient texts and even information stored in metal minds concerning prophecy. Is there something manipulating the diagram in a similar way?"

I got my first RAFO for that and he went for it pretty quickly, so I've been lead to believe that the diagram can't be explicitly trusted. Also if you think about it, why are the people of Roshar so against seeing the future and anything to do with Prophecy? I know that the church is partly to blame but could there also be an underlying reason concerning Odium?

See, I don't think Odium would be pulling the exact same trick as Ruin. Honestly, that would be kind of boring, and Sanderson isn't boring.

But there is a very real possibility that the diagram is being manipulated. I still think the one manipulating it is cultivation.

 

Anyways, I do want to point out that a lot  of those small details like "taboo against prophecy" are likely to have significant underlying reasons. In my experience, the cultures Sanderson creates are remarkably... Purposed. They don't have random beliefs and traditions just for no reason, or to create flavor. Often the people don't have it quite right, but usually those kinds of beliefs have a rational basis.

Then, maybe we on earth don't either. Most traditions in our cultures are started with some kind of solid reason.

So... Yeah. There's probably a solid reason that there's a taboo against prophecy.

Part of it may just be about Honor. Honor is utterly terrible at future sight, and so you can immediately assume that anyone who is telling the future is acting on behalf of a shard other than Honor (and Honor is basically the God of Vorinism). But I'm not sure if my hypothesis holds much water, because Ruin was bad at seeing the future, and yet you could still use Ruin's power to tell the future if you burned Atium.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

We have seen the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor interacting. Why wouldn't the quote from the Diagram simply be mentioning another shadowy secret society and one of their influential leaders? We know that Mraize is a title, not a given name. So why assume the quote is focused on a worldhopper's worldhoppiness? The "implications" that open up the world to Mr. T could very well be the extent and power of a rival secret society, the breadth and power of which we have only a very small picture.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Crucible of Shards
Grammar

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

There's one other factor that's been bugging me for a bit. Taravangian's super smartness came about due to him visiting the Nightwatcher. Now, Taravangian may or may not know of other worlds, but Cultivation certainly does. The Nightwatcher then, probably knows too.

Taravangian asked for the knowledge to save humanity. Humanity exists on many worlds. If the diagram really will preserve humanity, well, who says it's saving humanity on Roshar?

[Kaladin Zahel]

I think this can simply be taken as a first person expression of identity.

We don't call ourselves Earthlings but rather humans. So even if we knew of other inhabited planets, but did not communicate with them, we would still self identify as humans.

In most sci-fi and fantasy systems, bipedal sentient beings are usually referred to as humanoid as opposed to humans.

So it would seem reasonable to think of the homeworld inhabitants referring to themselves as humans exclusive from other beings.

 

I do also think it possible that the Diagram is indeed attempting to protect all humans in the cosmere.

Odium is the biggest threat in the cosmere and is only temporarily restricted to the Rosharan system.

So if Roshar fails/falls, the rest of the cosmere and 'humanity' may as well.

[cometaryorbit]

On 6/1/2017 at 10:51 AM, Drake Marshall said:

Then, maybe we on earth don't either. Most traditions in our cultures are started with some kind of solid reason.

So... Yeah. There's probably a solid reason that there's a taboo against prophecy.

I think that has to do with Sunmaker's "reforms". He overthrew the Hierocracy, which claimed prophecies and visions as support for what they were doing, so he said prophecies and visions were bad/false/not of Honor.

But we know Honor did send visions to at least a few people (Dalinar, Gavilar...)

 

2 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

Odium is the biggest threat in the cosmere and is only temporarily restricted to the Rosharan system.

So if Roshar fails/falls, the rest of the cosmere and 'humanity' may as well.

Odium already had a free hand on Sel, though, and humanity survived there. Is Odium's goal actually related to harming normal (below Shard or Herald-level power) humans?

[cometaryorbit]

True... but there does seem to be an inconsistency between Roshar's experience and Sel's.

Furthermore, while the Desolations were extremely devastating to Rosharan humanity, it appears that Odium's Splintering of Honor wasn't, as that was well after the Last Desolation and yet Aharietiam is still considered the 'Last'. There isn't any mention of a post-Recreance global cataclysm, either.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 6/3/2017 at 3:24 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Odium already had a free hand on Sel, though, and humanity survived there. Is Odium's goal actually related to harming normal (below Shard or Herald-level power) humans?

On 6/3/2017 at 8:37 AM, FiveLate said:

From the experience of Rosharans, who have a history of the Desolations, it would appear that Odium wants to destroy humanity.

@Calderis @Drake Marshall I hypothesize about Nale in my theory 10 Hearalds, Desolations, and 10 Fools and would love feedback.

Odium's goal appears to be along the lines of destroying that which could rival him in power, currently the other shards. Standard humans, even those able to use manifestations of investiture, are likely insignificant in power for him to feel threatened by him. 

My opinion is that the Desolations occurred because the destruction of humanity on Roshar, in some part, would somehow result in his release from the Greater Roshar System, giving him free reign to pursue and destroy other shards. 

[Fezzik]

odium avoided investing to keep his power up.

The listeners are somehow related to cultivation and odium. 

What if cultivation created them as an investiture sponge for Odium to keep him bound to the rosharan system, and Odium's goal is to kill off the parshendi, and only cares about humanity insofar as they are capable of genocide?

That could be the reason the knights disbanded.

Edited June 5, 2017 by john203