Zennix Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) The Everstorm has arrived. Parshmen who come in contact with it will turn into Voidbringers. From what we know about the previous desolations, we can anticipate much death and destruction. Despite this obvious danger, Rosharan governments don't seem like they intend to do something proactive to prevent the ubiquitous Parshmen from becoming Voidbringers. Take for example the Azish imperial decree: Quote All people are to get off the streets and go to storm bunkers, and parshmen are to be imprisoned or exiled into the storm. In my opinion, this decree will actually speed up the transformation process. I mean, the Parshmen are practically being offered up to the Everstorm. According to some of Jasnah's Philosophy schools of thought, killing all the Parshmen before they turn will be the right thing to do. Quote Kill or be killed. That was the Philosophy of Starkness. Quote Morality is separate from the ideals of men. It exists whole somewhere, to be approached—but never truly understood—by the mortal. The Philosophy of Ideals. It claimed that removing evil was ultimately moral. Quote Objective must be weighed against methods. If the goal is worthy, then the steps taken are worthwhile, even if some of them—on their own—are reprehensible. The Philosophy of Aspiration. On the other hand, the Knights Radiant, who have great influence on Roshar, have contrary opinions on matters of this nature. This is well shown in their First Ideal: Quote Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. So, what do you think? Edited March 18, 2017 by Zennix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Shall there be a genocide or not? My answer to that question is a definite NO. With humanity doing that Odium wouldn't need "voidbringers" in the first place, his goal probably would be achieved and any remnants of Honor and Cultivation would be wiped off Roshar. A genocide has nothing honorable and nothing cultivated, it would be a manifestation of pure Odium. Destroying potential evil by becoming evil oneself is no sound philosophy. So, what else to do? I don't have the answers, but a crude plan would be: - Shelter Parshmen form the everstorm - Bring them "normal" Parshendi spren to bond that give no form of Power. - Form an alliance with the Listeners, make them Radiant, if possible. - Fight against those who decided to join Odium with a common front. That will probably include some humans as well. I suspect the endgame won't be Humans against Parshendi at all. Best solution for Roshar, but not the Cosmere would be: set Odium free, let him splinter Cultivation (if he didn't already) and pass on to the next planet. Before, Odium only showed interest in shards, not the population of a planet, Sel is quite well after all. This plan probably would be counteracted by Hoid, though... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Staccato Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Well, to be fair, I think if ever the true nature of the voidbringers comes to light, some of the higher-ups in Alethkar might order for one. In fact, I am almost CERTAIN that at some point in the series someone is going to end up saying "Egad! Are you saying that the Parshmen - our Parshmen? - are actually budging voidbringers? Lord Almighty, kill them all then, what are you waiting for?!" So the genocide is going to be attempted but of course, Dalinar will be firmly against this idea. In fact, why don't I just go ahead and say that it's only a matter of time until Brandon decides to make this little theory of mine canon? So yes, along with @Pattern my answer to the question of should all Parshmen be killed would be a very, very big NO. Edited March 18, 2017 by Mr. Staccato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farnsworth Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Killing lots of people for something that they may do in the future is NEVER a good idea. There have to be some Parshendi who don't want to be in storm form, the people could use them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 45 minutes ago, Figberts said: Killing lots of people for something that they may do in the future is NEVER a good idea. There have to be some Parshendi who don't want to be in storm form, the people could use them! Like Eshonai. Her PoV makes it clear that she is SUPER NOT OKAY with storm form; there definitely seems to be some kind of mind control/suggestion/something going on with storm form, the same way there was with the Inquisitors in Mistborn. So yeah, I'm sure this will be brought up in universe as an option at some point, but again, the answer is No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zennix Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, Quiver said: Like Eshonai. Her PoV makes it clear that she is SUPER NOT OKAY with storm form; there definitely seems to be some kind of mind control/suggestion/something going on with storm form, the same way there was with the Inquisitors in Mistborn. You are right about Eshonai. But there is a faction among the Parshendi (Venli and her scholars) who wish for the return of Voidbringers. This faction will working against humanity's survival. Also, remember that Parshmen are somewhat different from Parshendi. We don't yet know what they really think about Odium and Voidbringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platnumkid Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 I thought parshmen were just Slave form of the Listeners? Very similar to but even more docile than dull form because they are not bonded to any spren at all. I believe there was something about the forms of power gave their gods control over the listeners, that's why their ancestors abandoned all forms of power and made the songs of listing. If the Parshmen are to be saved Rlain will have to be a big part of it. Right now the human's dont know anything about how the Listeners transform, he will need to explain that they take on spren in a highstorm and the parshmen can be saved if they are given a chance to get their minds back. I think the Everstorm will transform Parshmen because they have no bond at all, but a bonded Listener will be able to resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) From a purely logical standpoint, the eradication of the Parshmen is the the path of least resistance and blood shed. Logic is devoid of emotion, and by extension morality. So despite it's efficacy, this path would be incompatible with a group such as the Radiants. The diagramists on the other hand... Diagram day Taravangian, if he follows his intellect to compassion ratio, would have been completely devoid of empathy, and viewed everything in terms of logic. If the diagram was able to predict the Everstorm and still does not call for the death of the Parshmen, then it plans to use them for some form of leverage to achieve some other "necessary" goal. Personally, I would side with logic on this one. So I guess I wouldn't make a very good Radiant. Edited March 18, 2017 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 They need to be in the everstorm dont they? Lock the parshmen in somewhere during everstorms and they should not turn? Given that the parshendi broke free at one point, it should also be possible to stay free from it somehow, but how is hard to say. It should be harder for voidsprens to take parshendi(who already got a spren with their forms) then parshmen. It was impossible for Eshonai to resist, but that might be because she had already started the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammanas Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Ok this has been bothering me for a while. Please explain the difference between Parchmen, Parshendi, and Dull form? Do I have it right understading that Parchmen is the same thing as Dull form and Parshendi is "neutral" form that can turn into anything? Does the everstorm effect just Parchmen or every form of the Parshendi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Ammanas said: Ok this has been bothering me for a while. Please explain the difference between Parchmen, Parshendi, and Dull form? Do I have it right understading that Parchmen is the same thing as Dull form and Parshendi is "neutral" form that can turn into anything? Does the everstorm effect just Parchmen or every form of the Parshendi? Basicly a Parshendi has bonded a Spren and depending on the Spren assumes a Form. A Parshmen is more or less a Parshendi without a Spren and lacks the ability to bond a Spren, so it´s less a Parshendi Form than the lack of one. Dullform is just a Parshendi-Form which looks extremly similiar to a Parshmen but has a bond Spren. I believe the Everstorm/the Voidspren in the Everstorm can forcebly bond to a Parshmen, turning them into Voidbringer-Forms, but a Parshendi has to give consent before he/she can be turned into a Voidbringer I think a genocide of all Parshmen could work, but it probably wouldn´t work practically, as many important people were basicly raised by Parshmen and i believe many of them wouldn´t be willing to just kill these Parshmen. Also Parshmen probably aren´t the only beings capable of turning into Voidbringers (Thunderclasts don´t really seem like a Parshendi-Form to me) so the results could be not as hoped. Personally i think the best course of action would be to find out how to turn Parshmen into Parshendi and convince them to fight with you (Rlain could be really helpfull here). Edited March 18, 2017 by Samaldin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 6 hours ago, Pattern said: Best solution for Roshar, but not the Cosmere would be: set Odium free, let him splinter Cultivation (if he didn't already) and pass on to the next planet. Before, Odium only showed interest in shards, not the population of a planet, Sel is quite well after all. This plan probably would be counteracted by Hoid, though... I've said this before, and I'll say it again, probably. Nightblood's going to eat Odium at the end of Stormlight Archive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 I think the parshman member of Bridge Four and how Kaladin and the rest of the guys treated him was enough foreshadowing to show that parshmen aren't the main problem. How you treat a person largely determines how they will act towards you. There are enough blood-thirsty high princes who I'm sure would be for the idea of a mass genocide against the parshmen, but that doesn't make it right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemalurgic Headshot Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 10 minutes ago, Patrick Star said: I've said this before, and I'll say it again, probably. Nightblood's going to eat Odium at the end of Stormlight Archive Did you see my Joke theory, Nightblood is the End? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 35 minutes ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said: Did you see my Joke theory, Nightblood is the End? No, I didn't. I guess not-so-great minds think alike I do wonder exactly what would happen to Nightblood, though. It would definitely be weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farnsworth Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Maybe Szeth will be forced to come to terms with whether he is evil or not. Back to the topic, there is a very real possibility that Parshendi will end up killing other Parshendi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 @Andy92 We have to remember that Shen/Rlain is a Parshendi and not a Parshman, generally i think Parshmen are crippled to such an extent by the missing Sprenbond that they aren´t really responsive to their treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 14 minutes ago, Samaldin said: @Andy92 We have to remember that Shen/Rlain is a Parshendi and not a Parshman, generally i think Parshmen are crippled to such an extent by the missing Sprenbond that they aren´t really responsive to their treatment. They seem to be pitied by the Parshendi in book, so I'd have to agree. I don't think that the Parshmen are viewed by the Parshendi as a part of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 @Samaldin True, some of the details slip my mind after not reading the books for a while. I still think in general that it wouldn't be warranted. A genocide just doesn't seem like an event an author like Sanderson would portray in a justifiable way. That would be like a country on earth slaughtering innocents just because they think these people might become violent. I know it's different in the case of the story because the storm seems to affect the parshmen directly, but I think the point is still generally the same. I personally think Sanderson is going to approach this story in a "it's better to understand each other than to attack each other" kind of way within the mist of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) @Andy92 I agree with you. I already voiced my opinion that a Parshmen genocide wouldn´t work (and in a series where Honor is such a central theme genocide can never be the answer to anything) and that the best course of action would be fighting with the Parshmen as allies, but for that you would have o turn them into Parshendi first. I just wanted to point out that it wouldn´t be enough to treat the Parshmen better. It worked for Rlain but he was already a Parshendi, he could make decisions for himself and i believe Parshmen can´t (i mean psychological, since their crippled by their missing Sprenbond) @CalderisCould you explain what you mean? I don´t see the conection between what i said and your response (I hope that doesn´t sound offensive i just have trouble understanding your response) Edited March 18, 2017 by Samaldin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 There's a WoB hanging around somewhere (can't find it on mobile at the moment) having to do with the transformation. Basically, there is an element of will to it. Eshonai had to be willing to swap, and it was too late for her to change her mind about it when she did. For Parshmen, it said that if there was just a pane of glass or something separating them and they wanted to change in the Everstorm, they would. However, if they aggressively did not want to transform, there is an argument to be made whether or not they would, regardless of if they were outside in the storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Samaldin said: @Andy92 I agree with you. I already voiced my opinion that a Parshmen genocide wouldn´t work (and in a series where Honor is such a central theme genocide can never be the answer to anything) and that the best course of action would be fighting with the Parshmen as allies, but for that you would have o turn them into Parshendi first. I just wanted to point out that it wouldn´t be enough to treat the Parshmen better. It worked for Rlain but he was already a Parshendi, he could make decisions for himself and i believe Parshmen can´t (i mean psychological, since their crippled by their missing Sprenbond) @CalderisCould you explain what you mean? I don´t see the conection between what i said and your response (I hope that doesn´t sound offensive i just have trouble understanding your response) I was just reiterating your point. They are so crippled by their lack of a Spren bond that upon meeting them the Parshendi responded with sorrow. "where is their music?" They have somehow been broken in such a way that the Parshendi see them as something separate. The only time we see the Parshendi show them as inclusive is the Dullform Council member maintaining his form in honor of their plight. @Andy92 There is absolutely no way a popular work of fiction could present a genocide in a positive light. Sanderson shows strong moral lines in his writing, and without disregarding morality, genocide cannot be the correct choice. So I fully agree with you. I brought up Mr. T in my earlier post because his role in this story is the perfect example of someone disregarding morality for the greater good. He is committing atrocities because he thinks they are necessary to achieve the goal of survival. He is presented as the villain, whereas the heroes only shared oath can be summed up by saying that the ends cannot justify the means. Nietzce said "morality is the herd instinct in the individual." I've always felt that the idea of good and evil are social constructs with no meaning beyond what we give them. They are necessary constructs though. Without emotion, without empathy, those constructs fail, and you see this in Psychopaths (which is why I disagree with Brandon's statements that Kelsier is a Psychopath). No matter what emotionless logic says is the best course of action, the emotional impacts of those actions, the cost of life, the morality, must be considered. The primary oath of the Knights Radiant show that this concept is central to the story of the Stormlight Archive. Edited March 18, 2017 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zea mays Posted March 18, 2017 Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 No. The everstorm was summoned into existence by the song of the storm-bringer parshendi. Will it wane in strength until it wears itself out, or will it need to be "un-summoned" by a different parshendi-form-song? If the latter is the case, than they may need as many singers as they can muster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 9 hours ago, Zea mays said: No. The everstorm was summoned into existence by the song of the storm-bringer parshendi. Will it wane in strength until it wears itself out, or will it need to be "un-summoned" by a different parshendi-form-song? If the latter is the case, than they may need as many singers as they can muster. Actually that thought gave me an idea: The Everstorm caries Voidspren with it, but Voidspren were needed for the Parshend to assume Stormform and summon the Everstorm. So maybe without the Everstorm being repowered by Stormform-Parshendi it will weaken until it will be too weak to be noticed, but the Voidspren are still around. But if a group of Parshendi has the correct Form to counter Stormform they could actually stop the Everstorm and the Voidspren. (Which would probably lead to Odium having to take direct actions to keep Desolations coming) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) It will be a genocide but killing all the Listener would be a way to mitigate the Desolations. It is not in line with RK's dogmas but other people could try this way if there are no easy way to keep Parshmen away from the storm. There are parallels with other Cosmere's situations and in others places the mass killing was actual an option. I don't see to hard that a place full of racist like Roshar could try it too Edited March 19, 2017 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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