Long Game 31: A World Without Vin

[Amanuensis]

47 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

 

 

 

@Amanuensis firstly, I'd like to offer my best wishes that you recover swiftly, and sympathy for your Worm induced distraction. You say I'm your first post that you'd consider a vote on Silverblade for not doing anything. Is this materially different to a poke vote? 

It wouldn't be a poke vote because I'd be voting on him for not participating. A single post wouldn't be enough to alleviate it, just like my vote on Phatt now. I want more than an "I'm here" or "I'm waiting for information" before I remove my votes. I have no qualms with lynching people that aren't being helpful towards the game, because they're the last ones the eliminators will remove if they are villagers, and they could very easily just be eliminators not wanting to get involved to keep suspicion off themselves.

47 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

 

 

 

@Amanuensis, I agree completely regarding your assessment that role advice isn't alignment indicative, and indeed, it makes me suspicious, being a safe and uncontroversial place to appear helpful. I would ask, though, whether there is any value in claiming you have a read on Joe that you're not prepared to reveal. The conversation has been focused on Phattemer, and is of limited use. Creating a second strand of conversation would increase the information we could draw from the lynch. My other thought is that you're trying to get additional suspicion cast on Joe, and if so, why not mention that you're suspicious of him? It strikes me as a way to try to direct conversation whilst potentially avoiding the consequences of putting an opinion out there.

It doesn't make me suspicious at all, personally. For one, Len's first post talks about how there's a fair number of newer players this game. Providing role advice, no matter who it comes from, is useful for those who are generally unfamiliar with these types of games. So, by immediately declaring it suspicious for someone to give advice, no one's going to want to do it in the future either as a villager or an eliminator. Which is why, personally, I think posts like that need to not be used for alignment considerations at all. What should happen is people read each suggestion and, if any of them in particular seem misleading or unhelpful, make that clear (as Joe did), or if you have any better suggestions, they should add onto what was already stated. So long as no one inherently trusts or distrusts someone for making a post like that, it doesn't matter. Hence why I said it isn't alignment indicative (for either side).

And I definitely don't agree that a discussion focused on Phattemer is limited use. Unless you know something I don't, there's a potential that he's an eliminator. In which case he is, getting every players opinion on him and seeing who attempts to divert the lynch away from him is extremely informative. Likewise, if he is innocent, there will be some eliminators who would likely defend him without making a significant effort to stop the lynch, in a way to earn credit. We could then see who attempts to point fingers on other players. While I by no means don't think there should ever be one player under the spotlight at a time, I think you're underestimating what can be learned when every single players participates on every matter.

As for that last bit. I am not trying to get additional suspicion cast on Joe. If I was, I would have explained my thoughts regarding him. As evidenced by the fact four different players have voted for the same player as me after I made a case about them, it's clear that I'm much more effective when I explain my reasoning. If I wanted Joe to be in the spotlight, I would put him there myself. The few times I have played mind games with people, they were never very subtle. That being said, I AM suspicious of Joe. But some of that suspicion hinges on other players opinions of Phatt, and what Phatt's alignment is.

 

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Vote Tally

(0) Silverblade5: Elenion, 

(1) Magestar: Silverblade5, _Stick_, 

(0) Droughtbringer: Jondesu, 

(5) phattemer: Elenion, Ecthelion III, Amanuensis, A Joe in a Bush, randuir, Hemalurgic_Headshot, Arinian, 

(2) Elenion: OrlokTsubodai, Magestar, 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Amanuensis

[Arinian]

17 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

@Arinianyou said that you were suspicious of Stick because she doesn't look suspicious. Would you care to expound on this? There are a lot of players so far that you haven't mentioned as being suspicious - why call Stick out?

Okay. I played couple games with Stick and I can say without doubt that her playstyle makes me instantly suspicious of her(and I should add all time when I was suspicious of her she was villager). But in this game I didn't get this feeling, she sounded different at start(now I can say that now she not suspicious for me cause she suspicious now , yeah hardly understandable logic).

Quote

@Arinian, similarly, you say that Phattemer’s actions are not indicative of alignment, as although they're suspicious, many other players have done the same thing. How do you reconcile this view with voting for Phattemer immediately after?

As I said I've seen already many times like someone fails in his words and then he just getting lynched for it even if it was something not very suspicious. Same thing happening with Phatt now. But as I said that don't prove nor innocence nor guilt it's not indicative.(but cause there no other people about whom I can say that they are suspicious I voted for him) 

Stick too said some suspicious things (after I said that she suspicious, so now I can say that she again doing usual things for Village!Stick) but I can't say much about Phatt and what is usual for him cause in games where I played with him he was not very active or said not many things from which I can get read on him. So you can say I chose lesser evil ( I just voted on someone whom I count as little bit suspicious. Or you think that better vote on someone who not suspicious for me?)

[Stick.]

1 hour ago, randuir said:

@_Stick_, what did you expect to achieve with your question regarding whether anyone had been contacted by Kandra already?

I wanted to lure a Kandra into making a PM with me (it worked)

21 minutes ago, randuir said:

Regarding stick, I'll wait until I've gotten an answer to my question before rendering judgement, but he once again hasn't claimed to have taken a certain course of action to promote discussion, followed by a complete lack of participation in discussion from him. He hasn't been very active in the ongoing discussion yet, but at least he hasn't claimed that he was doing things to promote discussion.

She* :-P

But to those of you who haven't played much games with me-this is about as active as I usually get 

[Jondesu]

I do have to apologize again about my initial "vote" being unhelpful, but it should be noted that I was very tired and hadn't been able to piece anything together, and in fact haven't been able to really read through everything analytically yet either.  There's been a lot of discussion about the poke votes and bandwagons, interspersed with some genuine attempts at advice, which does make me genuinely suspicious because I've seen it used as a tactic to gain trust, but because I know it also can be genuine, I don't discourage it or use it as an automatic reason to vote on someone either.

I will say that it's important for the town (Nobles) in this game to remember that while Ruin is normally the bad guy, in this case he's on the same side as the town.  He needs to kill the Skaa, with only one additional kill (theoretically, although I guess Preservation's Vessel could be a Skaa too?), so if we find Ruin, we should actually protect and assist him (or her, I was just using the male pronoun because Ruin was male in the books).  Preservation is also a benefit to the town potentially too, however, so Ruin, if you find Preservation, consider leaving them alive until they can help the get rid of the Skaa.  Since they won't die to anyone else, there's no need to hurry up and kill them if you figure out who they are.  Preservation, obviously you'll want to avoid that so you can survive the game, so keep your role secret, but make sure you give abilities to players you're reasonably sure are Noble.

Everyone else, either listen to the advice others have given, or just go ahead and follow your instincts or your own logic.

Oh, and if you are a kandra and create PMs (please do) or if you receive one from a kandra, don't reveal that in the main thread (taking out communication will be very beneficial for the Skaa), but do take note of it so you can reveal who the kandra was if they die, and who they were suspicious of if they revealed it.

I still don't exactly suspect phatt or the others up for the lynch so far, but I'll reread the thread and see what I can figure out.

EDIT: I wanted to respond to this too and forgot:

13 hours ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

This has been bugging me for a couple of game now, and I've finally figured out why. What does it matter how many eliminators there are? We're not going to be able to guess the number with any certainty. We'll find out after we've killed them all. until then, it's good enough that we remember they can convert. I'm not going to bother with that discussion anymore. (I will happily bother with a discussion of the number of Half Skaa, because that's something really important)

Joe, the advantage is that sometimes we can use that to sort through how many of the people we haven't (at least to ourselves) soft-cleared, and then use the likely number of remaining elims to basically place odds on each person being one.  Nothing in this game is a hard science of course, but I found that very helpful several times.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Jondesu

[Elenion]

Orlok, my view on Thugs is that they should remain unclaimed until the lynch hits them and they survive, not that they should claim and expect the lynch to dissipate. Lynches should be used on suspicions if they are strong and substantiated, but if they aren't then a lynch should be used on a true inactive who is making no contribution.  In an ideal world that wouldn't be necessary, but I've seen too many games lost due to inactivity to just expect inactivity to fix itself.

[phattemer]

Well. This is a lot to respond to.

I guess I'll start by explaining my first post.

I dislike poke votes, and Orlok had already said what I would have about the CC. Given how long the day is, I didn't feel the need to put a second vote on anyone, particularly since no one had posted anything. I also did want to make at least a brief post to reassure people that I was keeping an eye on the thread.

I'll vote for Elenion, on the off chance some of the people who like bandwagons decide to hop off this one.

[Magestar]

-sigh-

Phatt, starting off by saying you've got a lot to respond to, and subsequently making a post that barely responds to anything doesn't really help your case, from my perspective.  Your vote for Len has no real backing, and while your explanation of your first post isn't bad, I would like to hear more from you than that.

Also, @DroughtBringer, I see you lurking.  Anything to say?

edit;  Or maybe he's gone.  >.>  Might have taken to long to post that.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Magestar

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

14 minutes ago, phattemer said:

 

I'll vote for Elenion, on the off chance some of the people who like bandwagons decide to hop off this one.

Is that a deliberate attempt to get me to vote on Len?

[Elenion]

As Mage pointed out, that's the third time Phatt has told everyone that he is going to start/continue discussion, but then hasn't followed through.  While it's definitely possible that he's just busy, or distracted, or overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information that has popped up since his last post, that paranoid voice in my head keeps telling me that he's a Skaa that's trying to look like he wants discussion while he really doesn't.  And since no other solid targets have appeared, although I admit that I have a couple people I'll be watching carefully, I'm finally going to drop my vote on Phatt.

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

Should I vote on phatt? I retracted my vote earlier, but it seems like the bandwagon is the dominant vote right now, and it doesn't look like that is going to change.

Not like it is going to matter, if a few others join the bandwagon.

[Jondesu]

As I said before, I dislike bandwagons and don't like to jump on them. However, phattemer's actions of not actually saying anything worthy of discussion while claiming to push for it is indeed suspicious, and is making the back of Remart's neck prickle. Speaking of which, is anyone planning to continue RP? I want to, but we've been sidetracked by discussion (discussion is good and necessary, but I love the RP parts of these games).

[Magestar]

Yeah.  Phatt, you haven't done a lot to dissuade my suspicions of you, and the lynch on Len doesn't seem to be going anywhere.  If you can't post because of RL things, well, I wish you had said that.  As things are now;  I don't see a reason to keep my vote on Len rather than you.
@phattemer

edit;  Wow, two ninja's.  I, for one, probably won't RP a lot this game.  The games where I do RP, I enjoy it, but not enough to do it just 'cause.  It takes too much time for it to be worth it for me.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Magestar

[A Joe in the Bush]

Just going to respond to some this time.

4 hours ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

 

@A Joe in the Bush, Stick did exactly the same thing as Phattemer. Is there a particular reason for voting on Phattemer rather than Stick or Headshot?
I'm not sure I agree with you regarding stockpiling of metals. Although it does limit supplies for the eliminators, it also results in a lot of village firepower being at risk, reliant on a single player’s survival. 
What's the value in saying what you did about the Lord Ruler? If you're right, you increase the likelihood of the Lord Ruler becoming a mayor, which is something I think we can all agree should be opposed.

I said that to offset what Elbereth said. He clarification will cause people to be suspicious of TLR. I think TLR is a safe role, and am inclined to trust them. If he becomes a Mayor, it's easy to deal with, just ignore them. Most players are Mayor averse, so i'm sure we can head off any attempted mayoring, plus, the eliminators have a one use double tap to kill any mayors, even if protected.

And i voted on Phatt because he did it first. Literally no other reason. I was responding to each post in order.

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

As for that last bit. I am not trying to get additional suspicion cast on Joe. If I was, I would have explained my thoughts regarding him. As evidenced by the fact four different players have voted for the same player as me after I made a case about them, it's clear that I'm much more effective when I explain my reasoning. If I wanted Joe to be in the spotlight, I would put him there myself. The few times I have played mind games with people, they were never very subtle. That being said, I AM suspicious of Joe. But some of that suspicion hinges on other players opinions of Phatt, and what Phatt's alignment is.

interesting. i voted for phat before i saw your vote on phatt. I did not change my vote when i saw that others had voted for him before me, but your words have no cause in making me vote for him.

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I wanted to lure a Kandra into making a PM with me (it worked) 

And then she suggested to that Kandra that they should contact Phattamer. and then that Kandra revealed that they were suspicious of phatt and stick both, and heavily suspects that they are both eliminators, and is planning on lynching stick next cycle, should phatt be an eliminator. (Hi, TrellVin the Kandra here)

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Oh, and if you are a kandra and create PMs (please do) or if you receive one from a kandra, don't reveal that in the main thread (taking out communication will be very beneficial for the Skaa), but do take note of it so you can reveal who the kandra was if they die, and who they were suspicious of if they revealed it.

I still don't exactly suspect phatt or the others up for the lynch so far, but I'll reread the thread and see what I can figure out.

Currently I'm 1 for two for making PM's with other Kandra. and that kandra is in contact with another kandra. I'm willing to bet that between 1 in 3 and 1 in 1 of players are kandra, which is why i'm fine with stating I'm a kandra.

 

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

As I said before, I dislike bandwagons and don't like to jump on them. However, phattemer's actions of not actually saying anything worthy of discussion while claiming to push for it is indeed suspicious, and is making the back of Remart's neck prickle. Speaking of which, is anyone planning to continue RP? I want to, but we've been sidetracked by discussion (discussion is good and necessary, but I love the RP parts of these games).

I'll submit some RP once I get home, I do much better on my laptop for typing. And I agree, the RP is the best part. Pablo might meet up with Remart. The benefits of having multiple characters

[A Joe in the Bush]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

EDIT: I wanted to respond to this too and forgot:

13 hours ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

This has been bugging me for a couple of game now, and I've finally figured out why. What does it matter how many eliminators there are? We're not going to be able to guess the number with any certainty. We'll find out after we've killed them all. until then, it's good enough that we remember they can convert. I'm not going to bother with that discussion anymore. (I will happily bother with a discussion of the number of Half Skaa, because that's something really important)

Joe, the advantage is that sometimes we can use that to sort through how many of the people we haven't (at least to ourselves) soft-cleared, and then use the likely number of remaining elims to basically place odds on each person being one.  Nothing in this game is a hard science of course, but I found that very helpful several times.

So, if there are an estimated 3 elims left, in a population of 10, and you've soft cleared 3, you can estimate that the remaining 7 have a 3 in 7 chance of being elims? how exactly does that help?

[Amanuensis]

1 minute ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

 

interesting. i voted for phat before i saw your vote on phatt. I did not change my vote when i saw that others had voted for him before me, but your words have no cause in making me vote for him.

I'm not suspicious because you voted on Phatt. The reason you caught my eye was unrelated. I was just also suspicious of Phatt at the time, so if it turned out he was an elim, it would make it unlikely you were too, being the third vote. However, given the general consensus of this lynch, I suspect that Phatt may indeed be a villager, and someone after me is an eliminator taking advantage of that. More than likely, it'll be Joe, Rand or HH, since they were the ones who really solidified the vote. HH is interesting because he ended up retracting as soon as someone mentioned the bandwagon forming.

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Vote Tally

(0) Silverblade5: Elenion, 

(1) Magestar: Silverblade5, _Stick_, 

(0) Droughtbringer: Jondesu, 

(8) phattemer: Elenion, Ecthelion III, Amanuensis, A Joe in a Bush, randuir, Hemalurgic_Headshot, Arinian, Elenion, Jondesu, Magestar,

(2) Elenion: OrlokTsubodai, Magestar, phattemer, 

[Jondesu]

27 minutes ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

So, if there are an estimated 3 elims left, in a population of 10, and you've soft cleared 3, you can estimate that the remaining 7 have a 3 in 7 chance of being elims? how exactly does that help?

Not that there are three left, but knowing that of those 7, 3 are Elims, and one is likely an inactive, for instance, while another has a specific role, can be helpful. It helped me in LG30 before I died.

[phattemer]

This should give you all a lot of information, at least. I suggest looking to the 3rd-5th votes.

Elenion

phatt

[Droughtbringer]

Ehh...that seems like a desprate play to either a) get himself lynched or b)Stop the lynch...

Phatt

[phattemer]

I think you're reading into it a bit much.

[Droughtbringer]

Probably, I just really don't enjoy when someone votes on them self.

[Ecthelion III]

14 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Completely missed that. Thanks. Which means deliberately tying votes to kill an inactive along with a suspicious player is off the table, thus if it becomes necessary, getting rid of them will either require the Skaa to use their group kill (unlikely), Coinshot spending one of his Vials (inefficient), or Ruin doing the Nobles a favor (assuming we don't lynch them, which I'd rather not do). I would prefer the first, but unless a tiny pool of specific players are eliminators, I doubt that's going to happen, so... whispers into Spike... Ruin, if you're listening, I ask that around Cycle 3, you start removing players who are inactive first, followed by those barely participating. There seem to be no limits to your kills, and this will help you narrow down candidates for Preservation. You should also keep in mind you have to kill the Skaa to win, too, therefore using your kills on players not helping find them makes fulfilling that half of your win con much easier.

This really sounds to me like you yourself is Preservation. Publicly advising Ruin to hit the less active players sounds like a really good way for you to not get targeted, don't you think?

5 hours ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

@Ecthelion III rightly identifies @phattemer's strange ways of generating discussion, but ignores both @_Stick_, who had said the same thing yet earlier in the thread than Phattemer, and @Hemalurgic_Headshot, who had also advocated discussion by waiting to vote…
Why did you single out Phattemer?

I think there was some difference between Phattemer's comment, which rubbed me the wrong way, and Stick's comment. I interpreted Phatt as "not voting is a good way to generate discussion" whereas I interpreted Stick as "I'll vote later after I get some material to work with". Seeing as in many games I do the same thing as Stick did, I'm not suspicious of him.

As for HH, he does seem a bit off to me tbh. I have to head out the door soon so more on him in the future.

-

RP to come, and one more thing when I can

[Elbereth]

One more hour before the cycle ends. 

[Amanuensis]

31 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

 

 

 

 

This really sounds to me like you yourself is Preservation. Publicly advising Ruin to hit the less active players sounds like a really good way for you to not get targeted, don't you think?

I'm not. But thanks for painting a target on my back

---

(0) Silverblade5: Elenion, 

(1) Magestar: Silverblade5, _Stick_, 

(0) Droughtbringer: Jondesu, 

(10) phattemer: Elenion, Ecthelion III, Amanuensis, A Joe in a Bush, randuir, Hemalurgic_Headshot, Arinian, Elenion, Jondesu, Magestar, phattemer, Droughtbringer, 

(1) Elenion: OrlokTsubodai, Magestar, phattemer, 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Amanuensis

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Sadly, I won't be able to get my post finished before rollover, but wanted to put on the record that I think Phattemer is likely a villager, and that I'm suspicious of Headshot, with reasons to follow once my post is done.