Oathbringer (in-world book)

[Fezzik]

All SA book titles are in-universe books. Oathbringer is no different, so what is the book about? My guess is a history of the sword and its wielders. Other ideas?

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Wasnt the only weilder we know about sunspear, the guy who originally united Alethkar? That feels thematic with the Dalinar flashbacks

[nervousnerd]

Yeah that makes sense. Perhaps Dalinar is trying to figure out what to do from one of the many new books they must have found in Urithiru. Uniting was technically what the Sunmaker was all about.

[Yezrien]

4 hours ago, MadhavDeval said:

Wasnt the only weilder we know about sunspear, the guy who originally united Alethkar? That feels thematic with the Dalinar flashbacks

Sunmaker. (Sunspear is the capital of Dorne, which I'm 96% sure is not in the cosmere.)

And in WoK, we get this quote from Sunmaker:

Quote

All wars are games. The greatest kind, with the pieces lost real lives, the prizes captured making for real wealth! This is the life for which men exist. To fight, to kill, to win.

It's interesting because it's so completely opposite Dalinar's current beliefs. I'd guess Oathbringer is a book that Sunmaker wrote. Part autobiography, part Art of War. And in Dalinar's flashbacks, we'll learn that it was very important to him in his youth, when he was a ruthless bloodthirsty warlord. It was his guide to life, and Gavilar's inspiration.

The grand arc of Dalinar's life is symbolized by his shift in reading material -- from Oathbringer to Way of Kings.  

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Only thing is.. the chapters in the unfettered anthology dont make dalinar out as the reading type. Still thats the only explanation that fits with most things we know

[maxal]

Actually...

Spoiler

 

Dalinar did not even know the Shardblade he was going after was Oathbringer, the Sunmaker's former Shardblade. Gavilar sook his head in discouragement at Dalinar's lack of interest and inability to listen during their counsel. Presumably, Sadeas was after the same Shardblade during the same fight: Dalinar just got there faster by being stupid, idiostic and downright fool-hardy which caused the death of several of his men.

As far as we can tell through the published flashbacks, Dalinar was blood-thirsty just for the shake of being blood-thirsty. He made no difference if the people he was killing were foes or allies, as long as he was killing. 

He definitely never read any book. He reads as a man having very strong urges and little restrains: nobody probably ever told him NO as a child nor explained to him his petty wishes aren't reason enough to take and grab. The one thing he always wanted and didn't get, Navani, he angst over endlessly to the point where he wants to kill his own brother. Talk about spoiled.

 

This being said, apparently those chapters include spoilers for the main narrative. I have identified three elements which might be it and this is one of them. 

[Yezrien]

Yeah, I see the flaw in my theory. If it was true, there really should be at least some mention of Oathbringer in the flashbacks. Which leads me to think the book will actually be found in the present, in Urithiru, like @nervousnerd said.

So... new theory.

The more I consider the name 'Oathbringer,' the more I think it should refer to Ishar. Look at this quote from (the in-universe) WoR:

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

The standard interpretation is that Ishar, probably backed by Honor, performed a Sazed-esque restructuring of the Surgebinding magic system. He basically encrypted the nahel bond, so new Radiants couldn't access too much power until they proved themselves worthy by saying oaths. So he literally brought the oaths to the KR. Suppose, then, that this earned him a knickname: Ishar Oathbringer.

And suppose Nohadon, a Bondsmith, got to know Ishar pretty well during his desolation. After all, Ishar would be his patron herald, and probably a mentor figure. So when Nohadon set out to write his memoirs (TWoK), he included a whole section about the lessons he learned from old Oathbringer. But, like many wise and talented writers, Nohadon wrote a book so long that it couldn't be bound. In order to publish TWoK, he had to cut out the Ishar section. 

He then resolved to expand that section into a second book, a sequel, called Oathbringer. Sadly, Nohadon passed away before he could send this book to his publisher. The only extant copy is a rough manuscript, which he left in his trunk, in his chamber in Urithiru. Where Dalinar will soon find it, and learn lots of interesting things.

So why is the sword called Oathbringer? It was named after Ishar. Today, the epithet 'Ishar Oathbringer' is forgotten, probably expunged during or after the Hierocracy. But Sunmaker, well aware of it, named his blade after the herald he thought was the strongest. Or... Sunmaker was Ishar. Or another herald. We can't rule out that possibility.

So Dalinar will be sifting through a pile of old manuscripts, and he'll see one called Oathbringer. And he'll think, "Hey! It's a book about my old shardblade!" But he'll find that the name is mainly a coincidence, and the book is actually way more interesting than mere blade-lore.

[Spoolofwhool]

53 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

The standard interpretation is that Ishar, probably backed by Honor, performed a Sazed-esque restructuring of the Surgebinding magic system. He basically encrypted the nahel bond, so new Radiants couldn't access too much power until they proved themselves worthy by saying oaths. So he literally brought the oaths to the KR. Suppose, then, that this earned him a knickname: Ishar Oathbringer.

And suppose Nohadon, a Bondsmith, got to know Ishar pretty well during his desolation. After all, Ishar would be his patron herald, and probably a mentor figure. So when Nohadon set out to write his memoirs (TWoK), he included a whole section about the lessons he learned from old Oathbringer. But, like many wise and talented writers, Nohadon wrote a book so long that it couldn't be bound. In order to publish TWoK, he had to cut out the Ishar section. 

I have not heard this interpretation. I'm curious as to how it was reached. I was under the impression that quote is just saying he created the political and military structure that the Knight Radiants followed when they interacted with the various governments, and the limits of their authority. Your example doesn't exist as far as I recall as Sazed didn't restructure allomancy in any way, just simplified snapping. Also, nothing we've seen indicates that the oaths didn't exist from the start. Furthermore, the fact that the excerpt doesn't use the term oaths or ideals, which is a known terminology, then it seems fairly clear that the passage isn't referring to the ideals required to advance in powers. 

Also, where are you getting that Nohadon was a bondsmith? Nothing, as far as I can recall or find, indicates that. It may be that you're mistaking the fact that an excerpt referring to something breaking in and murdering his bondsmen.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yezrien]

7 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I have not heard this interpretation. I'm curious as to how it was reached.

I didn't mean to imply that it has any authority. Just that I didn't come up with it myself, and I'm pretty sure it's been around for a while. 

24 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 Your example doesn't exist as far as I recall as Sazed didn't restructure allomancy in any way, just simplified snapping.

We don't know exactly how he changed snapping -- only that he made it easier for people to access the magic system. I figured making it harder to access a magic system would be a comparable change. "Restructure" may have been a misleading word choice. I only meant that he changed the rules. 

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, where are you getting that Nohadon was a bondsmith? Nothing, as far as I can recall or find, indicates that. It may be that you're mistaking the fact that an excerpt referring to something breaking in and murdering his bondsmen.

That part's just a theory. But I don't think it's a groundless one. In the vision, he discusses the nahel bond, suggesting that he could be a Radiant. And 'bondsmen' could suggest Radiant squires. And if he belonged to any order, wouldn't the Bondsmiths be the most appropriate? He was a prominent king, in the time of a desolation. He probably played a similar role to Dalinar's, uniting people against the Voidbringers. And his book clearly guided Dalinar to the Bondsmith ideals.

According to WoB, Dalinar and Gavilar were both "on the Bondsmith path" for some time. The Way of Kings seems to be a common denominator. 

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

We don't know exactly how he changed snapping -- only that he made it easier for people to access the magic system. I figured making it harder to access a magic system would be a comparable change. "Restructure" may have been a misleading word choice. I only meant that he changed the rules. 

My opinion is that he performed a spiritual change in the Scadrians, making it easier for the specific changes to occur in the spiritual aspects such that they can access the power. That would therefore not actually be a change in allomancy at all, unlike what creating the ideals of the nahel bond would be. 

Also, as a personal suggestion, don't phrase theoretical things as fact, like you did with Nohadon being a bondsmith. I think it would lessen confusion. 

Anyhow, I still don't see anything which indicates that surgebinding was changed. It seems a lot more likely that he just created a set of operational rules and procedures for them to follow, if you take into account the terminology used as well. 

[nervousnerd]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I have not heard this interpretation. I'm curious as to how it was reached. I was under the impression that quote is just saying he created the political and military structure that the Knight Radiants followed when they interacted with the various governments, and the limits of their authority. Your example doesn't exist as far as I recall as Sazed didn't restructure allomancy in any way, just simplified snapping. Also, nothing we've seen indicates that the oaths didn't exist from the start. Furthermore, the fact that the excerpt doesn't use the term oaths or ideals, which is a known terminology, then it seems fairly clear that the passage isn't referring to the ideals required to advance in powers. 

Also, where are you getting that Nohadon was a bondsmith? Nothing, as far as I can recall or find, indicates that. It may be that you're mistaking the fact that an excerpt referring to something breaking in and murdering his bondsmen.

I kind of do think that the oaths may have been added after the Nahel bond was discovered. The spren were were just imitating the heralds at first and I don't think that they would have had similar oaths to bind them. It is also unlikely that the different types of spren got together to agree on oaths because some of them do not like the others. Ishar seemingly saw how dangerous it was to give people these powers with no control over how they could act with them.

[theuntaintedchild]

I've had the pet theory for awhile now that Oathbringer would be a book Dictated by Dalinar to Navani. A book chronicling his story about being a Bondsmith and named after his sword. His job is literally to bring people to make oaths. I of course reserve the right to be completely wrong. XD 

[The One Who Connects]

19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I was under the impression that quote is just saying he created the political and military structure that the Knight Radiants followed when they interacted with the various governments, and the limits of their authority [..] Also, nothing we've seen indicates that the oaths didn't exist from the start. Furthermore, the fact that the excerpt doesn't use the term oaths or ideals, which is a known terminology, then it seems fairly clear that the passage isn't referring to the ideals required to advance in powers.

Remember the "Oathbinding" discussion in that other thread last week? This is yet another variant of that idea.
Granted, I've heard an explanation that doesn't involve Ishar at all: When Nohadon made the in-world Way of Kings, it was used to bind them to the codes of Honor written within the book. ie: the Spren used the book as a blueprint for the KR Ideals, just as the Flamespren corresponded to the measurements in the Ardents Interlude. Discussions about that topic died out a while back, but just like speculation on the Bondsmith wiki page, it was never really decided one way or the other.

A supporting factor for this idea was Nohadon's usage of "Surgebinders" rather than "Radiants" in Dalinar's flashback chapter. But like I said, this is a relic of older discussion, page 127 of the SA forum in this case(late December of 2013.)

19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

as I recall as Sazed didn't restructure Allomancy in any way, just simplified snapping.

Well.. Preservation moved Atium and Malatium into the External Temporal metals category of the table for his sign of 16 thing. Harmony is said to have moved it back to normal, paving the way for Cadmium/Bendalloy to , but that's still under citation needed.

[+robardin]

6 hours ago, theuntaintedchild said:

I've had the pet theory for awhile now that Oathbringer would be a book Dictated by Dalinar to Navani. A book chronicling his story about being a Bondsmith and named after his sword. His job is literally to bring people to make oaths. I of course reserve the right to be completely wrong. XD 

I like this view. Sure, "The Way of Kings" and "Words of Radiance" are ancient books in Kaladin's time, but people surely still write (dictate) books.

Alternatively, it could just be a coincidence that Stormlight 1 and 2 have book titles matching an in-universe book title. After all, wasn't the original title of Stormlight 3 intended to be Stones Unhallowed? Unless it turns out that's some kind of holy book for the Shin, I suppose.

 

[Nashan’Elin]

I thought it was just called Oathbringer because that was the name of Dalinar's old Shardblade?

[maxal]

Brandon confirmed Oathbringer was an in-world book just as he confirmed his plan was to have every single book be named in such manner. I thus seriously doubt Dalinar would dedicate a book to Navani, entitling it "Oathbringer". At this point in time, it makes no sense. Dalinar discarded Oathbringer, it is an artifact of his past life, not his future one. Considering what we know of Oathbringer's origin, the most likely possibility is the book merely narrates the high exploits of this particular Shardblade and its most famous bearer. Likely, the book tells the tale of why this Shardblade was named Oathbringer.

[theuntaintedchild]

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Brandon confirmed Oathbringer was an in-world book just as he confirmed his plan was to have every single book be named in such manner. I thus seriously doubt Dalinar would dedicate a book to Navani, entitling it "Oathbringer". At this point in time, it makes no sense. Dalinar discarded Oathbringer, it is an artifact of his past life, not his future one. Considering what we know of Oathbringer's origin, the most likely possibility is the book merely narrates the high exploits of this particular Shardblade and its most famous bearer. Likely, the book tells the tale of why this Shardblade was named Oathbringer.

I agree with you that it doesn't make much sense naming the book after a sword he discarded. I was thinking more along the lines of borrowing the title because it so aptly describes Bondsmiths. More of a happy coincidence than a dedication. I just keep expecting Dalinar to have a book written because of his repect for Nohadon and the Way of Kings.

I do love your idea as well though. It would be cool to see that even during his younger wilder years, Dalinar could enjoy the written word. I can imagine him getting readings from a famous shardbearer in between battles. Learning tactics and then eventually winning the blade the book describes. That'd be cool too.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by theuntaintedchild

[Glamdring804]

My own pet theory is that Oathbringer in-universe is a book that doesn't show up until the back half. It's a biography of Dalinar that Jasnah or Navani writes after Dalinar (presumably) saves the world in the front half.

[CosmereAvair]

Oathbringer could be an in world book about how the Knights Radiant operated and how, as the head of the KR the Bond smiths follow the oaths. Dalinar finds the book and sets out to re-bond the Knights Radiant.

[nervousnerd]

Having read some of the Dalinar chapters from Oathbringer (Not the in universe one), I really don't think Dalinar was one for tactics. Perhaps he learned a little about it when he was young but he seemed to just do what was natural to him. He could tell what needed to be done and did it with very little thought. It is possible that he and Gavilar heard the story of the Sunmaker when they were very young and that is what inspired them though I suppose.

I also feel like Dalinar would feel like Nohadon did in his vision at the moment. He hasn't really accomplished anything worthy of being chronicled yet. The Alethkar that he helped unite is as fragile as ever. The brother he helped to become king has died leaving his weak son as ruler. And while he has helped to refound the Knights Radiant, they are already facing an immense enemy with only 4 of them to face it.

He doesn't even really have much of his own wisdom to share. So, far the majority of what Dalinar has done is follow what other people think should be done. He has let The Way of Kings and the Alethi codes lead him. While they have certainly helped him change from the warmonger that he was, he needs to learn to do what is right on his own before he has anything to tell the world.

[DrakeMarshall]

Okay. I'm not sure what to think of the main discussion on this theory, but I just want to say...

I believe that Ishar organized the different radiant types into ten unified orders and kept them from killing each other. I don't think he institutionalized the oaths, or restructured surgebinding in any way. Those were "natural" products of the spren (after all, the nature of the oaths varies significantly between different kinds of spren; the "oaths" of the lightweavers don't even really bind them to a creed so much as it cultivates their understanding of truth and lies).

Some of you have expressed some skepticism that the spren could "get together to agree on oaths." I don't think that the spren need to get together and agree on anything. I would say that oaths are inherent to the nahel bond, not something that the spren had to consciously design when they bonded humans.

Some have speculated that something structured as an oath could not occur "naturally." Well, spren aren't natural. They are manifestations of human thought, particularly linked to the shards of honor and cultivation. The idea of a system of oaths arising from such beings isn't unreasonable.

 

Just wanted to say that I'm pretty sure that Ishar did not restructure the way surgebinding works, even though that does sound like a cool idea.

[Weltall]

Haven't read the Unfettered sample chapters (aside from the one I already heard at a signing) so I can't comment on anything that might have been introduced in there.

I like the idea that Dalinar's former shardblade sharing the name of the title book is because the sword is related to the book in some way but it's not a book about the sword. We might be able to get some insight from the fact that one of the titles previously considered for Dalinar's flashback book was Highprince of War, which sounds like a chapter or volume in a work on politics.

And since the topic has come up, I wonder if we're going to see all of these proposed titles as in-universe books eventually. We know they're meant to be in-universe documents which means that for every title Brandon thinks up, he needs to find a place in the world for a text of the same name, with at least some idea of its author and content. We've seen it once with The Book of Endless Pages (an earlier idea for Shallan's flashback book title) being discussed in WoK before the appearance of the in-universe Words of Radiance in the book of the same name. So are we going to see a book about the position of Highprince of War mentioned at some point even though it's no longer the title of a SA book? Is Stones Unhallowed (one proposed title for Szeth's book) going to be a text by a Shin scholar and/or about Shin beliefs? Is Skybreaker a work by or about that Radiant order? We don't even know if either of those is going to be the ultimate title of the book so we might get a third one before everything is done. Working on Stormlight Archive must be exhausting for Brandon if he needs to 'write' a new book or two every time he needs to come up with a title for the next one.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

Having read some of the Dalinar chapters from Oathbringer (Not the in universe one), I really don't think Dalinar was one for tactics. Perhaps he learned a little about it when he was young but he seemed to just do what was natural to him. He could tell what needed to be done and did it with very little thought. It is possible that he and Gavilar heard the story of the Sunmaker when they were very young and that is what inspired them though I suppose.

I also feel like Dalinar would feel like Nohadon did in his vision at the moment. He hasn't really accomplished anything worthy of being chronicled yet. The Alethkar that he helped unite is as fragile as ever. The brother he helped to become king has died leaving his weak son as ruler. And while he has helped to refound the Knights Radiant, they are already facing an immense enemy with only 4 of them to face it.

He doesn't even really have much of his own wisdom to share. So, far the majority of what Dalinar has done is follow what other people think should be done. He has let The Way of Kings and the Alethi codes lead him. While they have certainly helped him change from the warmonger that he was, he needs to learn to do what is right on his own before he has anything to tell the world.

This is an accurate observation: I made the same based on the same flashback chapters. Dalinar isn't a leader nor a visionary nor a reformer: he is a fearless force of nature with infinite self-confidence in his abilities who was raised to take anything he wants by brute force. All in all, he has the writing of a former spoiled child whom was never told no, whom was never taught was is an acceptable behavior and what is not. In other words, he wasn't educated. I also suspect he might have ADHD and mild autism which would have exacerbate his negative traits just as I suspect Renarin inherited his condition from his father (and not his mother as most have assumed in the past), but this remain a wild theory I cannot yet prove. 

This being said, Dalinar was a brute. When he couldn't get what he wanted, he through the equivalent of a "grown-up tantrum". It is only when he ended up being faced with the consequences of his behavior he sought to change and for him changing passed through a firm set of rules. Rules which exist to prevent him from allowing his natural inhibitions to take control. He hinted as much in WoR when he explains, to Navani, how his love for her was dangerous as it fell outside the code and he couldn't allow himself any leeway for fear of falling back to the man he once was.

Hence, Dalinar isn't the "Oathbringer" nor is he an inspiring figure: he can only aspire to guide people towards embracing better ways of life, just as he had. He is a prophet, perhaps, in a way, but he isn't the one who writes the rules. Dalinar isn't the one making the rules, not yet anyway.

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Haven't read the Unfettered sample chapters (aside from the one I already heard at a signing) so I can't comment on anything that might have been introduced in there.

I am 95% convinced Oathbringer is a book about the "Shardblade's past", but there is still 5% chances I am wrong in my interpretation.

[nervousnerd]

Well, I'm not sure I would go that far. I think Dalinar is inspiring because he changed himself. Yes, he had to lose his brother and force himself to follow the codes in order to be a better person but I think that we will see how much that is asking of himself in the next book. I think he truly has changed to be a better person and the codes were just the catalyst (although I want to know if his wife had any part as well).

I just don't think Dalinar will be able to lead well unless he believes that he truly is a changed man and any mistake he makes will lead him back down the wrong path. In that way, maybe the codes are holding him back.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, nervousnerd said:

Well, I'm not sure I would go that far. I think Dalinar is inspiring because he changed himself. Yes, he had to lose his brother and force himself to follow the codes in order to be a better person but I think that we will see how much that is asking of himself in the next book. I think he truly has changed to be a better person and the codes were just the catalyst (although I want to know if his wife had any part as well).

I just don't think Dalinar will be able to lead well unless he believes that he truly is a changed man and any mistake he makes will lead him back down the wrong path. In that way, maybe the codes are holding him back.

Well, I'll admit there is an inspiring element in Dalinar considering he has changed or at least found a way to control his inhibitions. What I meant is that Dalinar isn't a charismatic figure whom incite others to follow him just by the force of his character. It isn't why others follow him. They follow him because they are afraid of him, because they see him as the strongest man around and while his soldiers have come to respect the war leader he has become, which is one who does as he says (honorable), he still isn't a natural leader nor a great war tactician. It has come to my notice basically all of Dalinar's "strategies" equate to him hitting within the thick of it mindless of other considerations... He isn't good at strategy nor does he does have a mind for it. What he has is a physical presence, a straight-forward honesty and the ability to audacity to just stand firm in the face of adversity. He also says what he thinks, without games nor manipulations, which is bound to attract a few people tired of the endless political maneuvers: you might not like Dalinar, but at least, you can trust he will do as he says.

Since I have read The Thrill, it is getting hard to comment without dropping in elements from the flashbacks. So I'll just say the flashbacks do highlight elements of Dalinar's personality which we do see in the present day narrative while allowing us to see the man he really is, once you remove the rigidity of the code. Present day Dalinar is very controlled and he did choose to become this person as opposed to the one he once was, but he hasn't changed everything about himself. For instance, he still values competence and skill above eye color, but just as the youth he once was, he does not lead. He rushes head first into the melee expecting his men to follow.

There are also other things in there, troubling things... His wife might have played a role, might, but readers will soon find out their story isn't quite what we were led to believe.