wob Hoid's Magical Translation

[Argent he/him]

I've been chatting with Brandon over at Reddit about Hoid's ability to speak any language, and more specifically a case where this ability fails him in a way that is now very obvious to me - in The Way of Kings when he uses the word "coin" (instead of sphere) a couple of times. I hadn't really noticed this discrepancy until recently when somebody on the forums pointed it out, but it's been a bit of a sore thumb for me since then - why would Hoid's magic make sure an obvious mistake? Going as far as to use a word that doesn't even exist in the target language? The hound/axehound blunder I've been able to accepted, but this stranger. So I asked. And got some answers.

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Q: Recently, at DragonCon, you talked briefly about detecting worldhoppers by examining their speech, and you mentioned Hoid using "coin" on Roshar, where there are no coins. Which overlapped with a question I had been meaning to ask - why would the people around him hear "coin" instead of "sphere"? Is this magical translation (something to do with Connection) malfunctioning for some reason? Or is the use of such out-of-context words solely for the benefit of the Cosmere-aware reader?

A: Yes, this has to do with magical translation. It's a quirk of trying to say something in the language, and the magic mixing up your intent. Someone who actually learns the local language wouldn't make this mistake.

Q: Can I just make sure I understand your reply real quick? Are you saying that if Hoid, or someone with the same magical translation, were to learn a bit of Alethi language and culture, get more used to spheres being used as currency, then the magic would stop using "coin" and replace it with sphere? Or, in a sci-fi world, maybe "credit"?

A: If he was thinking about saying sphere, he'd say sphere with the magic.
If he accidentally said coin, through the magic, it would try to translate it into coin.
If he learned the language, there's little chance he'd make this mistake. It's a natural feature of learning another language--you tend to imitate those around you. It's still possible he'd make the mistake, but from my experience with second language acquisition, you don't accidentally say words in your native language expecting them to make sense in the new language.

Q: Ah, so when you say that is he had said "sphere" in his own language, instead of "coin" (which would be weird to him, because he doesn't think of spheres as currency), then the translation would be fine. Not that he could say "coin" and have the magic interpret his intent and turn into "sphere".

A: Yes, to an extent. Remember, this is magical means through connection--not exact translation. But this is a short version of what is happening.

Source

Furthermore, /u/Torrieltar asked whether this is how puns work and also got a lengthy response:

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Q: Is that how translated puns work, then? Based on your intent?

A: Yes, that has something to do with it. Though being aware that you're using the magic, and how it works, helps. For example, Hoid (very experienced with this sort of thing) can manipulate the magic and get a feel for what will work and what won't. It's a strange thing, because in most cases, you're actually SPEAKING the language, not speaking your own and having it translated. The magic pretends you were born and grew up in that place.
So you can speak in puns, and riddles, and so forth. However, there's latency from where you actually grew up that causes a kind of "blip" when you try to force through something that just doesn't translate. If you just let the magic do its thing, you'll naturally use idioms from the world you're in. But if you lock on to one from your past, it causes a kind of disharmony in the magic--reminding your spirit web that you don't actually speak the language. It will spit out a transliteration or verbatim phrase in this case.
You will rarely see Hoid having the trouble that Vasher does in using the language and magic, as Vasher doesn't really care. But you will still see even the most expert slip up now and then.
There's an extra layer on this that I don't focus too much on, in that the books themselves are in translation--so when Hoid's using a pun, he's filtering his intent to pun through the magic, into Alethi, creating a local pun that works in the language--then that is in turn translated to one that works in our language.

Source

So there you have it, folks. Not a lot of new stuff, but interesting (at least to me) to see these explanations in as much detail as is available here.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

What is interesting to me is that Hoid is using a connection based magic to speak local languages, and it has to have been one to which he had access to prior to gaining Feruchemical abilities. He was able to speak natively to people on Sel when he was there... is there another magic system that might have/grant access to the connection type magic?

[Eki]

Yeah, very interesting. Makes me wonder if you can use Connection translation in order to actually learn a language.

3 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

What is interesting to me is that Hoid is using a connection based magic to speak local languages, and it has to have been one to which he had access to prior to gaining Feruchemical abilities. He was able to speak natively to people on Sel when he was there... is there another magic system that might have/grant access to the connection type magic?

Do we know when he gained Feruchemy? He's likely using medallions, but we don't know if those existed before the world of Ash, or even on another planet before then.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Eki said:

Do we know when he gained Feruchemy? He's likely using medallions, but we don't know if those existed before the world of Ash, or even on another planet before then.

I hadn't even considered the Medallions. I figured he had some archaic Yolish version like with his Lightweaving.

[Eki]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I hadn't even considered the Medallions. I figured he had some archaic Yolish version like with his Lightweaving.

Also a very likely possibility. That would mean he could have had (in fact, probably must have had) access to it long before Elantris.

[Argent he/him]

Yeah, I figured he was using Connection, but not in the way the Southern Scadrians are. Who knows what kind of mojo he has access to?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

20 minutes ago, Eki said:

Yeah, very interesting. Makes me wonder if you can use Connection translation in order to actually learn a language.

Do we know when he gained Feruchemy? He's likely using medallions, but we don't know if those existed before the world of Ash, or even on another planet before then.

Well he got his bead of Lerasium in WoA, and we know he already uses Feruchemy to predict when he needs to be somewhere, so I'd be surprised if he wasn't using Feruchem connection magic to do it... but is he using medallions or did he truly gain Feruchemy some how... hmm. 

How did he do it before getting Feruchemy though? Maybe he learned the local Sel language or languages at some point? Maybe he met an Elantrian in the Cognitive and learned from him there...

[Argel he/him]

Let's not forget about Vasher. No reason to believe he is using Feruchemy. Brandon talks about Hoid and Vasher as if they are using the same trick/magic to pull it off. Of course, Hoid was on Nalthis as well....  But it also sounds like most worldhoppers are using this trick. So it must be easy to figure out.

[Eki]

17 minutes ago, Argel said:

Let's not forget about Vasher. No reason to believe he is using Feruchemy. Brandon talks about Hoid and Vasher as if they are using the same trick/magic to pull it off. Of course, Hoid was on Nalthis as well....  But it also sounds like most worldhoppers are using this trick. So it must be easy to figure out.

There could be a whole industry for blank location connection medallions. In theory, it could have existed long before (and throughout) the world of ash. We already know there is a big cross-planet trading network.

But there could definitely be other ways to do it.

[Magestar he/him]

8 minutes ago, Eki said:

There could be a whole industry for blank location connection medallions. In theory, it could have existed long before (and throughout) the world of ash. We already know there is a big cross-planet trading network.

 l like this theory.  It adds to the idea that there are galactic star wars/trek/HGTTG things going on, which I am a huge fan of, even if it totally does not correspond with how any of Brandon's books seem.

Also, does anyone else think it's awesome that you can use connection to make puns translate to be funny in any language?

I think it's awesome.  

[Spoolofwhool]

If Hoid and Vasher are using feruchemical Connection though, then that means that it is either working a bit differently then how it is explained in BoM, or the Shattered Plains have been aligned to the Alethi culture. Interesting thought, and I'm hesitant on the latter and the former, which implies to me that perhaps it is something different, not feruchemistry.

[Eki]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

If Hoid and Vasher are using feruchemical Connection though, then that means that it is either working a bit differently then how it is explained in BoM, or the Shattered Plains have been aligned to the Alethi culture.

I think the warcamps really have "connected" enough with the people living there for Hoid to be able to use it to speak Alethi. Great point though, I didn't even think of the limitations of only being able to speak languages native to the area where you are.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

As a genuine question that could affect the Medallion theory: can worldhoppers get to a planet without having to go through the Shardpool?

The Pits and The Well are both in the North, whereas the medallions are at the South Pole. I accept that Hoid could probably survive the trek down and back, but that would take ages

[Spoolofwhool]

19 minutes ago, Eki said:

I think the warcamps really have "connected" enough with the people living there for Hoid to be able to use it to speak Alethi. Great point though, I didn't even think of the limitations of only being able to speak languages native to the area where you are.

True in the warcamps, but IIRC, there was a time when Hoid met Kaladin on the plains and was still speaking Alethi fine. However, it probably was on the outskirts of the camps so was still fine. Can't remember the passage exactly.

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As a genuine question that could affect the Medallion theory: can worldhoppers get to a planet without having to go through the Shardpool?

The Pits and The Well are both in the North, whereas the medallions are at the South Pole. I accept that Hoid could probably survive the trek down and back, but that would take ages

Worldhoppers usually use perpendicularities to worldhop. While those usually are in the form of shardpools, it is implied that they can take other forms, so there may be one in Southern Scadrial as well. Also, it may be possible to worldhop without needing a perpendicularity, though it would be much hard. Probably would require more of an ability such as Elsecalling (surge of transportation). It has been implied that an Aon could possibly achieve a similar effect.

[Eki]

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As a genuine question that could affect the Medallion theory: can worldhoppers get to a planet without having to go through the Shardpool?

The Pits and The Well are both in the North, whereas the medallions are at the South Pole. I accept that Hoid could probably survive the trek down and back, but that would take ages

The Southerners (as far as we know) got the medallions after the Final Ascension, and since Sazed moved everything around, we have no idea where either the Well or the Pits are since then, if they even exist. In one of the newspaper articles in SoS, an explorer of the mountains south of the Southern Roughs describes something that seems to be a shardpool, as well as someone who is probably a masked Southern Scadrian. We don't know how far away from the Southern lands this is. It's likely they have migrated north since their lands froze, so they might not live near the actual pole anymore.

We also know that there are Southern Scadrians who at some point migrated off-world (since we've met one of their decendents in the Stormlight Archives), which means they had access to a perpendicularity, or some other way of worldhopping.

But if Hoid used Connection magic during the events on Sel, he must have had access to it before the Final Ascension. If he used medallions to do it, the idea is that medallions were known back in classical Scadrial, before the Lord Ruler remade the world. That knowledge then spread to worldhoppers, who set up production and distribution off-world. Both shardpools were in Terris, where of course the most Feruchemists lived as well. Only a theory of course, but I think it's either this, or Hoid uses a completely different magic system to achieve something similar.

24 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

True in the warcamps, but IIRC, there was a time when Hoid met Kaladin on the plains and was still speaking Alethi fine. However, it probably was on the outskirts of the camps so was still fine. Can't remember the passage exactly.

Yeah, I don't think they were very far away.

I just realized though, I don't see why there couldn't be medallions (or whatever he's using) filled with Connection to Alethkar in particular, rather than the blank Connection the Southerners use in BoM. It might require some messing around with other medallions, or an actual Alethi Feruchemist, but I think it should be possible.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Eki said:

Hoid uses a completely different magic system to achieve something similar.

Probably this honestly. It has been said that different systems can achieve similar effects so I imagine that another system could achieve a translation effect.

[Magestar he/him]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

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Hoid uses a completely different magic system to achieve something similar.

Probably this honestly. It has been said that different systems can achieve similar effects so I imagine that another system could achieve a translation effect.

 

This would still not explain how Vasher does it, however.  I would peg it as something that anyone with enough investiture can do, as long as they know the right tricks.  

For an Example, in WoR, when we see Galladon, Demoux, and some Taldainian in the Purelake Region, they all are using the normal language.  And, Galladon's Kolo's are being translated to understands.  This means that he is almost definitely using the magic trick, because even when he speaks other languages normally, he says Kolo.   This means that an Elantrian, and also probably a Taldainian and a Scadrian can use the trick as well.

So, it's probably an investiture hack, and has nothing to do with Feruchemy.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, Magestar said:

 

This would still not explain how Vasher does it, however.  I would peg it as something that anyone with enough investiture can do, as long as they know the right tricks.  

For an Example, in WoR, when we see Galladon, Demoux, and some Taldainian in the Purelake Region, they all are using the normal language.  And, Galladon's Kolo's are being translated to understands.  This means that he is almost definitely using the magic trick, because even when he speaks other languages normally, he says Kolo.   This means that an Elantrian, and also probably a Taldainian and a Scadrian can use the trick as well.

So, it's probably an investiture hack, and has nothing to do with Feruchemy.

Exactly. It's probably possible to do with many, if not all, systems, so more than likely it has nothing to do with feruchemy for most worldhoppers.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Vasher's been established as good at manipulating his Identity. It's how he hides his nature as a Returned. Maybe he just has to live somewhere long enough that he starts seeing it as his home.

I can't think of anything for the Seventeenth Sharders, though, so it's probably something else.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

18 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Vasher's been established as good at manipulating his Identity. It's how he hides his nature as a Returned. Maybe he just has to live somewhere long enough that he starts seeing it as his home.

I can't think of anything for the Seventeenth Sharders, though, so it's probably something else.

I like this idea, but why would it have to be different for them? To me, language is more or less an evolving cognitive entity built around the perceptions of the people who speak it.

If we took Alethi 1 in High School or spent some time in Alethi Culture, we would pick up some of the language without magic. I imagine any worldhopper that spent some time trying to live/fit in with the local culture would start picking up on the language. Once you've picked up on some words & culture, you're Connected cognitively to the area, if only a little bit here and there.

As anyone who has started(and not yet finished) a book series/tv show likely knows, it's pretty hard to distance yourself again once you've started. Those few connections you have will pave the way for more. It's the whole reason why we ask Brandon so many questions, because we want to understand it better. Maybe the magical aspect to how Worldhoppers do it is that its quicker and more instinctual, with less proper learning involved.

[Argel he/him]

Eh? Vasher thinking of Roshar as home? He has too much of a "nowhere is home these days" vibe to him for me to buy into that one. More so if he went to Roshar to try and track Nightblood down.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

But he's demonstrated that he has tremendous command over his self-image. He goes from thinking of himself as a vagabond, to a god, and back again at the drop of a hat. Is it too much of a stretch for him to start thinking of himself as Alethi?

That said, I think that would have to be a special case. Returned have an innate ability to change to match their self-image. Demoux has nothing of the sort.

[iohn he/him]

They could all be using different connection tricks, and some of them could have just learned the language the old fashioned way. In fact unless there is some network or market for blank connection medallions I would think that the chances are very slim of all worldhoppers learning languages being identical.

[Argel he/him]

There's a worldhopper colony out there, so it's possible it's common knowledge. If Khriss knows the trick then, her being so big on freedom of information (Brandon compared her to Ed Snowden), we can probably safely assume it is common knowledge among most worldhoppers.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

*cough* Hoid has the Moon Sceptre *cough*