Long Game 26: Cognitive Dissonance

[Dani she/her]

1 minute ago, Ecthelion III said:

Straw    Daniyah, you're lurking, just like you did the whole time in that Warbreaker game, and you were the holder of Foo-Foo.

I'm not even playing  

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Just a heads up, given we're calling out lurking.

I started my new job on Monday, and am still getting acclimatised. I've had a 13 hour day today, and don't have the energy or remaining mental fortitude to do anything now other than say I'll catch up on the cycle tomorrow evening.

[Magestar he/him]

8 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

Straw.  Daniyah, you're lurking, just like you did the whole time in that Warbreaker game, and you were the holder of Foo-Foo.

2 minutes ago, Daniyah said:

I'm not even playing  

LOL. 

This amuses me way more than it should for some reason.  I almost died laughing.

Sorry.  -wipes away tears-

Ahem.  Anyway.

Stink, I feel like you've done nothing helpful, and honestly, if you are a villager, you've brought this on yourself.  I think you made a few key mistakes, and I'll be sorry if you are a villager.

I don't know if their really are villagers this game.    I'm going to refer to non-odiumers as Villagers, for clarity's sake.

And that's really all I have to say for now.

[STINK he/him]

26 minutes ago, Elenion said:

"The fact that we're still discussing this is in my opinion, pretty stale tbh. I mean no-one was ever going to follow 'Victor's plan in the first place, especially me seeing as one of my win cons is to visit each world. So others could have that, and so we shouldn't just focus on one plan.  However, what I will do, is vote on Wilson." -p2

"Actually just remembered that Wilson ain't gonna be that active. Wilson Mark IV Looked at what he's done and he's definitely given off an eliminator vibe" -p3

"I dunno what my points would've been tbh, would've gotten something from a response post like I did with mark. And yeah, I've now added some actual more discussion and thoughts into the game despite my apparent nature to troll  I was definitely addressing mark in my sixth point haha Also sure you can leave the vote on me, at least it shows that someone is willing to commit to stuff  Paranoid King This whole 'i vote on the first day all the time thing' looks like preemptively throwing out an excuse for if you vote on someone and it backfires on you, tbh." -p3

Alright, so to clarify, you're main thing against me is how I was constantly switching my votes and stuff. So let's go through what I did.

1. Vote on Wilson, which was quickly changed seeing as I realised that she wouldn't respond and my whole first vote thing was to have a quick argument with someone.

2. Vote on Mark, with one semi-valid point about backtracking and phishing. In response, he posts, then I post, then he posts etc. There is discussion, so it is not a poke vote. 

3. Vote on Paranoid King, because he has set himself up for backtracking. Again, this is after a discussion with Mark, so I didn't quickly switch votes or anything, but I vote on PK for my thoughts on what voting should actually be, and then Joe kinda backs me up and PK seemed to of changed his mind and agreed with me (and Kas' post about lynches).

So, your main point about how I'm suspicious for switching my votes around and stuff? It only really applies to my first vote on Wilson that didn't cause any discussion. So I'd like to say that your point is invalid, but I appreciate how I'm the target on D1 because I'm actually active and willing to respond to posts like this.

17 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Stink, I feel like you've done nothing helpful, and honestly, if you are a villager, you've brought this on yourself.  I think you made a few key mistakes, and I'll be sorry if you are a villager.

Okay, should I address the vagueness first? I guess I will.

You know what would be really helpful Mage? Telling me what these 'key mistakes' that I made are, so other people that are villagers could learn what they should actually be doing according to you, or just so that people can see that you actually have a reason for voting for me other than already having votes. This is bandwagoning, because even though it's a third vote, it's happened relatively quickly and you haven't really given a reason. So this is actually quite worrying for me, seeing as bandwagoning is happening on D1 on a third vote. 

Secondly, I've done nothing helpful? Would you prefer me to not post and have a stagnant discussion about Aman's plan for worldhopping and then Straw's modified plan of mentioning who is mentioned in the GM PM to each person? I mean, I could've done that if you don't want discussion about people's thoughts on different players, which right now basically consists of:

1. STINK thinks that PK is being too wary about his votes and obvious, but PK has thought about it. So actually, Paranoid King.

2. Joe has voted on STINK because Joe had reasons for voting for me, maybe I changed his views on them or didn't but he said he'll stick with it because at the time he was the only vote.

3. Elenion thinks I am making useless votes, even though I have caused a discussion with my votes.

4. Magestar thinks I am useless and making mistakes. 

Woah, would you look at that? I'm in all of those different thoughts about the game! But clearly, showing that Magestar is bandwagoning is not helpful in the slightest towards the village. 

And no need to say you're sorry, 'cause I'm sorry if you're a villager and bandwagoning in the first 24 hours of a game.

 

[AliasSheep]

Right now, Stink's vote switching is making me uneasy; even if he does have good reason for each of his votes right now, it sets a precedent for later on in the game where we take it as a given that Stink switches votes when he could be switching to something that benefits team Odium (which I'm assuming is the enemy?, that's the impression I got from the thematic set-up in the 

Also

2 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

To generate discussion. We do need more discussion in this game. There's a lot of PM's and docs in this game, and the main thread does need to be talked in.

Wouldn't that give you a reason to vote?   I don't think the rest of your points really give an argument specifically against voting, so wouldn't it better to vote just for this first reason?

EDIT: I forgot to put a colour on my vote >> (my nose grrr)

EDIT2: Didn't even finish a sentence.  I'm not doing very well at being focused am I.

"

that's the impression I got from the thematic set-up in the "
Initial post by Nyali

Edited September 15, 2016 by AliasSheep

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I'm going to vote for Magestar. His explanation for voting on Stink seemed pretty lame to me. I also find it slightly bothersome that so many people are jumping on Stink for contributing rather than posting (admittedly funny) nonsense.

[STINK he/him]

5 minutes ago, AliasSheep said:

Right now, Stink's vote switching is making me uneasy; even if he does have good reason for each of his votes right now, it sets a precedent for later on in the game where we take it as a given that Stink switches votes when he could be switching to something that benefits team Odium (which I'm assuming is the enemy?

Damnit Sheep I'm supposed to be going to sleep right now and you're not helping

Okay first off let's talk about the subtle manipulation again. This time the manipulation we're looking at is Sheep pretending he doesn't know what the 'evils' (could be evil independents and there's the game definition and stuff) actually are, because Sheep is good and wasn't given the name of the evils. I mean, it's not so subtle because it's just some reasoning, but because it's not said outright it's manipulation. And before anyone rushes in here like 'But this is Sheep we're talking about! He can't manipulate!' then all I'm gonna say is that is exactly what the manipulator wants you to think. 

Secondly, you're voting for me because later on I could be switching votes and end up with something that benefits the evils? Anyone could do that. It's not like everyone but me is locked into a vote once they vote for someone, they can also retract their vote and should. Right now I think half of my votes are because I'm willing to move on from topics and change who I'm voting for, which isn't a good sign for this game's metaplay at all. Again, before anyone asks just in case about metaplay, I'm referring to how apparently a few people don't like votes being changed, which could turn into a meta where votes being lacking and not often seen, which is not good. Therefore the metaplay in that situation would be to like never vote, and I like my voting. Nothing creates discussion like a good old vote on someone actually playing

5 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

posting (admittedly funny) nonsense.

That would go in the sig but I think it's a bit too full now

[Mint11 she/her]

So if we're calling out lurkers and people who haven't posted yet, I'd like to echo what Magestar said earlier about not having a clue on what's going on.  

I normally talk quite a bit online, but for someone reason I seem to be as quiet as I am IRL on SE. So I'll mostly be reading and thinking. And probably keeping this tab open sometimes when I'm doing something else, so being online won't always equate to being up to date on the thread.

2 hours ago, The Only Joe said:

Several People have said that they started on worlds other than their Homeworlds, so I seen no reason to not reveal the full list of who's on the planet I'm on. I'll release the list in about six hours and a half hours, unless someone gives me a compelling reason not to.

To be honest, I don't really like this idea. For one thing, what good would it do? If we're sharing information, there should be a clear incentive.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Frozen Mint

[AliasSheep]

17 minutes ago, STINK said:

Damnit Sheep I'm supposed to be going to sleep right now and you're not helping

You're welcome, Stink

 

17 minutes ago, STINK said:

Okay first off let's talk about the subtle manipulation again. This time the manipulation we're looking at is Sheep pretending he doesn't know what the 'evils' (could be evil independents and there's the game definition and stuff) actually are, because Sheep is good and wasn't given the name of the evils.

Multiple times in the thread people have doubted whether a) there is an evil faction and b ) who they are;  I wanted to clarify that where it was relevant.

 

Basically:
Wilson's comment about there being multiple Elims.
Paranoid's whole post using [evils]; not actually stating Rayse, and then later explicitly stating the difference between Rayse and evils (not the same people I was referring to, for reference)
 

17 minutes ago, STINK said:

Secondly, you're voting for me because later on I could be switching votes and end up with something that benefits the evils? Anyone could do that. It's not like everyone but me is locked into a vote once they vote for someone, they can also retract their vote and should.

My issue is not the vote switching as much as it is setting the precedent of taking you vote switching as being normal.  Anyone can vote switch, but it highlights them because it's irregular.  If you're going to vote switch lots, then you can just pass it off as the style of play you're taking, which doesn't sit well with me.  Provided you can instill some faith in me that this is just a turn one thing, I don't see any reason why I'd continue voting on you.

Edited September 15, 2016 by AliasSheep

[STINK he/him]

I don't need to install faith that it's just a turn one thing. I get where you're coming from, with the whole 'STINK could backtrack with this precedent!' but then as you've said I would basically be lynched if I ever said that, because why would I? It's a situation that will only really come up if I'm evil and under pressure, and those two conditions will never be fulfilled. 

So yeah, don't need to put any faith in you. I mean, again the bandwagoning is actually pretty funny seeing as this is way early in the game, but at the same time the reasons for voting me are just eesh by now. 

[Magestar he/him]

37 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

I'm going to vote for Magestar. His explanation for voting on Stink seemed pretty lame to me. I also find it slightly bothersome that so many people are jumping on Stink for contributing rather than posting (admittedly funny) nonsense.

I did not really find it funny.

I mean, some of it was mildly amusing, but a lot of it felt hard, if not harsh.  Maybe it's just my sense of humor.

46 minutes ago, STINK said:

Okay, should I address the vagueness first? I guess I will.

You know what would be really helpful Mage? Telling me what these 'key mistakes' that I made are, so other people that are villagers could learn what they should actually be doing according to you, or just so that people can see that you actually have a reason for voting for me other than already having votes. This is bandwagoning, because even though it's a third vote, it's happened relatively quickly and you haven't really given a reason. So this is actually quite worrying for me, seeing as bandwagoning is happening on D1 on a third vote. 

Secondly, I've done nothing helpful? Would you prefer me to not post and have a stagnant discussion about Aman's plan for worldhopping and then Straw's modified plan of mentioning who is mentioned in the GM PM to each person? I mean, I could've done that if you don't want discussion about people's thoughts on different players, which right now basically consists of:

1. STINK thinks that PK is being too wary about his votes and obvious, but PK has thought about it. So actually, Paranoid King.

2. Joe has voted on STINK because Joe had reasons for voting for me, maybe I changed his views on them or didn't but he said he'll stick with it because at the time he was the only vote.

3. Elenion thinks I am making useless votes, even though I have caused a discussion with my votes.

4. Magestar thinks I am useless and making mistakes. 

Woah, would you look at that? I'm in all of those different thoughts about the game! But clearly, showing that Magestar is bandwagoning is not helpful in the slightest towards the village. 

And no need to say you're sorry, 'cause I'm sorry if you're a villager and bandwagoning in the first 24 hours of a game.

I'll admit I'm overly fond of saying people have made key mistakes.  And then I have a tendency to not back it up.

So, I'll do that.  Sorry for not clarifying, I have been a bit busy and just wanted to get a vote in.  Plus, you had not defended yourself very well, IMO.

Key Point 1:  You have been rather harsh in your attack on Mark, and while I'll give you Kudos for basically creating three pages of conversation from scratch, the way you attacked him and then jumped off seemed rather... odd?  It was like you were trying to prove you could out-do him.

Key Point 2:  Your accusations on Mark were the hollow, over-analyzed type that I really, really hate.  They were basically just word twisting, and some trumped up accusations that really had nothing behind them.  Plus, you kept at it, basically just running circles and throwing dodgeballs.  It made no sense, and I took it seriously.  I considered telling Mark to ignore you:  I decided that would be uncalled for, plus, you jumped off of him soon after I thought about doing so.

Key Point 3:  2 out of 3 of your votes did not have a lot of content, and were weak.  The third was overdone, and seemed very off, as i have stated previously.  This set off several people's alarm bells, such as Joe, Sheep, and myself.  

That's really it for now.  There are probably more.  I'll keep my vote on you for now, because I don't see another good option, and I think it will prompt discussion D2.  Basically, 80% of our D1 discussion, has been discussing how to make more D1 discussion.  Oddly, it's made up 3 or for pages.   But seriously,  if you can provide a better, non-Magestar target, then and can back it up, then I'll switch.  But right now, I see no net loss to killing you, and a possible net gain.

30 minutes ago, STINK said:

Okay first off let's talk about the subtle manipulation again. This time the manipulation we're looking at is Sheep pretending he doesn't know what the 'evils' (could be evil independents and there's the game definition and stuff) actually are, because Sheep is good and wasn't given the name of the evils. I mean, it's not so subtle because it's just some reasoning, but because it's not said outright it's manipulation. And before anyone rushes in here like 'But this is Sheep we're talking about! He can't manipulate!' then all I'm gonna say is that is exactly what the manipulator wants you to think. 

30 minutes ago, STINK said:

And before anyone rushes in here like 'But this is Sheep we're talking about! He can't manipulate!' then all I'm gonna say is that is exactly what the manipulator wants you to think.

LoL.   Does anyone else find this extremely amusing?  So much IKYK.  So much analysis.  So much SE.     

Anyway, I think you guys are thinking about this way to hard.  If someone is manipulating people:  Let other people know what you think, and then stop OVERANALYZING.  OVERANALYSIS MAKES ME CRAZY.

Sheep might actually be a villager!  We just don't know!  

Ok.  Enough rant.

30 minutes ago, STINK said:

Secondly, you're voting for me because later on I could be switching votes and end up with something that benefits the evils? Anyone could do that. It's not like everyone but me is locked into a vote once they vote for someone, they can also retract their vote and should. Right now I think half of my votes are because I'm willing to move on from topics and change who I'm voting for, which isn't a good sign for this game's metaplay at all. Again, before anyone asks just in case about metaplay, I'm referring to how apparently a few people don't like votes being changed, which could turn into a meta where votes being lacking and not often seen, which is not good.

Your misunderstanding.  Perhaps intentionally; I don't know.  But what Sheep is saying is, that if you are an Elim, setting up a precedent for vote-flops will be really helpful later on, and seems very Elim-y.  I'm not saying that you are an Elim:  I'm just telling you how it looks.

However, I do agree about the vote thing.  I think that you are right about setting up a meta like that, and I agree it would be bad.  I hope that does not happen.  I try to vote often, but I also try to back it up.

30 minutes ago, STINK said:

That would go in the sig but I think it's a bit too full now

No, you've got enough room!   More Sig Power FTW.

 

TL;DR:  Overanalysis is happening.  Stink is being somewhat too harsh for my liking.  Vote-Swapping rapidly/somewhat randomly sets up a precedent helpful for Elims.  I don't know what's going on.  A few people have provided decent reasons for lynching Stink.  I say yes.  My TL;DRs are almost as long as my actual content.  Stink, defend yourself.

edit;  Actually, if you have to go to bed, you can respond to this in the morning.  I have no reason to do this right now.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Magestar

[AliasSheep]

14 minutes ago, STINK said:

you've said I would basically be lynched if I ever said that

Didn't I just say that you wouldn't be because of that defense?

14 minutes ago, STINK said:

It's a situation that will only really come up if I'm evil and under pressure, and those two conditions will never be fulfilled. 

I'm not sure enough about that to place bets on it; it's not enough for me to just disregard my point.

[STINK he/him]

1 minute ago, Magestar said:

I did not really find it funny.

I mean, some of it was mildly amusing, but a lot of it felt hard, if not harsh.  Maybe it's just my sense of humor.

Think he was more talking about what I used to post compared to this game.

 

1 minute ago, Magestar said:

Key Point 1:  You have been rather harsh in your attack on Mark, and while I'll give you Kudos for basically creating three pages of conversation from scratch, the way you attacked him and then jumped off seemed rather... odd?  It was like you were trying to prove you could out-do him.

I 'attacked' him for the way he had acted in the PM. He responded and changed my mind. I jumped off. Odd, eh?

2 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Key Point 2:  Your accusations on Mark were the hollow, over-analyzed type that I really, really hate.  They were basically just word twisting, and some trumped up accusations that really had nothing behind them.  Plus, you kept at it, basically just running circles and throwing dodgeballs.  It made no sense, and I took it seriously.  I considered telling Mark to ignore you:  I decided that would be uncalled for, plus, you jumped off of him soon after I thought about doing so.

Can't really say anything if you're already admitting you have a bias towards hating those posts.

3 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Key Point 3:  2 out of 3 of your votes did not have a lot of content, and were weak.  The third was overdone, and seemed very off, as i have stated previously.  This set off several people's alarm bells, such as Joe, Sheep, and myself.  

Quick question, and I honestly want as many people as possible to answer this. Is voting for someone because of weak votes a weak vote in itself?

4 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Basically, 80% of our D1 discussion, has been discussing how to make more D1 discussion.

No, it's been me voting for what I see as suspicious and having votes thrown onto me. 

4 minutes ago, Magestar said:

But seriously,  if you can provide a better, non-Magestar target, then and can back it up, then I'll switch.

I'm not the one voting for you.

5 minutes ago, Magestar said:

LoL.   Does anyone else find this extremely amusing?  So much IKYK.  So much analysis.  So much SE.     

Anyway, I think you guys are thinking about this way to hard.  If someone is manipulating people:  Let other people know what you think, and then stop OVERANALYZING.  OVERANALYSIS MAKES ME CRAZY.

First off I was pointing it out because this is a game where people deliberately choose what words they put down in the post. They don't go 'uh i think stink is dodgy' but instead phrase it in such a way to convince others, usually. So yes, I will stay aware of the effects that sentences are having. 

Also, the part you bolded was because Rae had already been like 'but mark can't manipulate!' and that is the worst thing to think when discussing any manipulation taken by anybody. And I'm not overanalyzing, but if you think so then fair enough. Again, you've admitted that you have a bias towards analysis. 

8 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Your misunderstanding.  Perhaps intentionally; I don't know.  But what Sheep is saying is, that if you are an Elim, setting up a precedent for vote-flops will be really helpful later on, and seems very Elim-y.  I'm not saying that you are an Elim:  I'm just telling you how it looks.

I don't see how I've misunderstood it. Sheep has said that because of my 'flip-flop' votes I can use that as a defence, so now if I was to use it as a defence everyone would be suspicious. So as an eliminator, I wouldn't use it, and as a villager I wouldn't use it in the first place. So as a villager, you shouldn't be focusing on stuff like that to catch a potential elim.

10 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Stink, defend yourself.

 Sure, I'll defend myself even though you say you're biased towards me. And I can't change your bias. But I don't know what I was doing this whole time people have been voting on me then. I thought I was defending myself, but apparently I wasn't?

1 minute ago, AliasSheep said:

Didn't I just say that you wouldn't be because of that defense?

Yes, and I followed that train of thought, instead of stopping where you stopped.

2 minutes ago, AliasSheep said:

I'm not sure enough about that to place bets on it; it's not enough for me to just disregard my point.

As seen in one of my replies to Magestar's points, I honestly think you should just disregard your point at this point. 

[Dalinar Kholin]

31 minutes ago, Frozen Mint said:

So if we're calling out lurkers and people who haven't posted yet, I'd like to echo what Magestar said earlier about not having a clue on what's going on.  

I normally talk quite a bit online, but for someone reason I seem to be as quiet as I am IRL on SE. So I'll mostly be reading and thinking. And probably keeping this tab open sometimes when I'm doing something else, so being online won't always equate to being up to date on the thread.

To be honest, I don't really like this idea. For one thing, what good would it do? If we're sharing information, there should be a clear incentive.

First of all, I'd like to soundly agree with the "not having a clue" theory. This makes it very difficult for me to analyze posts. However, I would disagree with your assumption. Why does there need to be a clear incentive? The eliminators have a private doc (right?), thus they have more information. The villagers don't. The more information available will thus more probably aid the villagers (who will be unaware of said information), then the eliminators (who will generally be aware of that information through likely having a person on each wordl). Is there a reason that general rule of thumb would be not beneficial in this place or in general? Also, if The Only Joe was an elim, he would not need to share such information publically, when he could just do so in private.

[AliasSheep]

2 minutes ago, STINK said:

Yes, and I followed that train of thought, instead of stopping where you stopped.

You mean saying the village won't think of it as a valid defense because I've brought it up?
I don't know if they're going to remember it, unless someone consistently brings it up.

6 minutes ago, STINK said:

As seen in one of my replies to Magestar's points, I honestly think you should just disregard your point at this point. 

That was a comment about you being an elim and under pressure and you know it.

[STINK he/him]

Yep and seeing as I'm obviously gonna say I'm a villager I just presume you're wrong because no one would say they're evil unless they can guarantee that they will live. It's not worth discussing the 'elim and pressure' thing because for you it's obviously a 'is stink evil' but I'm good so I don't have to worry.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

First off Stink.

Second off, did no one catch this?

1 hour ago, Magestar said:

I don't know if their really are villagers this game.    I'm going to refer to non-odiumers as Villagers, for clarity's sake.

Did no one catch Magestar saying he wasn't village? (Also, there's a typo. Curse you Elbereth. Now I'm noticing them. I was Happily ignorant before.)

[Silverblade5 he/him]

If your homeworld is Taladin, you can help with one of my goals. If you're interested, please pm me.

[Magestar he/him]

16 minutes ago, STINK said:

I 'attacked' him for the way he had acted in the PM. He responded and changed my mind. I jumped off. Odd, eh?

This is exactly what you said:

3 hours ago, STINK said:

Na. Mark IV

But at least people know how I'm gonna go about things know.

In response to this:

3 hours ago, Mark IV said:

I can't really reply to either of those points you raise as they are your opinions of things.  And my opinions differ form yours.

Anything else you'd like me to answer?

Which did not really answer your refutations from this post:

3 hours ago, STINK said:

It's not even manipulation to know that asking for a goal swap that no one is going to do isn't going to give you intents of actions and stuff. All you got from it was me saying lol. I'm not painting you as a master manipulator, don't worry.

Also phishing for info isn't suspicious yes, but it's how as soon as I said lol you were immediately like 'uh it was actually for this ' which is more suspicious.

In which you pretty much openly insulted him.  Plus, the way you jumped around in the way you did makes my alarm bells go off.

16 minutes ago, STINK said:

Can't really say anything if you're already admitting you have a bias towards hating those posts.

True, but those posts seem to be used by Elims fairly often.  However, you may have just been attempting to start discussion.  I'll give you that.

16 minutes ago, STINK said:

I'm not the one voting for you.

This was largely to prevent you voting on me.  

You've actually defended yourself surprisingly well, and I, for one, will remove my vote from you if you can provide a better target.

16 minutes ago, STINK said:

I don't see how I've misunderstood it. Sheep has said that because of my 'flip-flop' votes I can use that as a defence, so now if I was to use it as a defence everyone would be suspicious. So as an eliminator, I wouldn't use it, and as a villager I wouldn't use it in the first place. So as a villager, you shouldn't be focusing on stuff like that to catch a potential elim.

Couldn't, now, not wouldn't, originally.  It could very well have been an Elim thing, especially after that post about us 'Knowing how you would do things now.'

Still, I'm ready to hop off you.  Provide a target.  But first, get some sleep.

edit:  Blast.  Ninja'd, and by a vote on me.  Joe, I did not say I was not a villager.  Are you just messing with me? I am a villager.  I am not of odium:  I am against odium.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Magestar

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

2 minutes ago, Magestar said:

edit:  Blast.  Ninja'd, and by a vote on me.  Joe, I did not say I was not a villager.  Are you just messing with me?

Yes you did. Either that or you blatantly lied. Either you know for certain that there is a Village Faction (There is) because you are a member of it, Or you don't know about the village Faction, because You're not a part of it.

Ergo, You're a non villager.

[Magestar he/him]

Oh. Huh.  I assumed their was no village faction because my role PM, which blatantly said I was not evil, did not pronounce me village.  Well, by all the usual standards, I'm not an Elim.  Not even close.

Well, take that how you may.  I'd rather not discuss a lot more of my Role PM on D1, but I can't take back that I said I was not pronounced 'Village'.

I have to go soon, although I'd like the chance to continue this discussion.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Magestar

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I think if you don't know your alignment/Faction, you're probably an Independent. At least, that's how I interpreted the rules.

[Arraenae]

2 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

Here's why I vote on the first day:

1. To generate discussion. We do need more discussion in this game. There's a lot of PM's and docs in this game, and the main thread does need to be talked in.
2. To manipulate votes to see how the eliminators react. In this game, there are so many different factions and goals, almost none of which I know, there's no way for me to tell who's in Rayse's gang.
3. So that villagers have a chance to get ahead. In most games, if villagers don't do anything D1, the eliminators kill someone N2, and they're back where they started, but with one less villager. In this game, I'm not sure if the "eliminators" have a kill at all. And there's so many win conditions going around, I don't think we can separate people into "villager" and "eliminator"
4. There's a chance of hitting a eliminator: As I said before, people aren't divided into eliminators and villagers in this game. But even if they were, there's no way to tell if we hit an eliminator or not. (excluding individual abilities)

So in this game, I don't have the same reasons to vote as in other games. And my goals my not be connected to killing specific people, so I really don't have much of a reason to vote. But I'll talk all you like.

And if I vote on someone this cycle, and it turns out that I've killed someone who doesn't have the evil tag, you may call me out on it all you like, stink.

PK, all of those reasons for voting D1 apply perfectly to this game.

1. This is a game of SE. Most of the village's power comes from the lynch, and the lynch isn't very effective unless people discuss things. Without discussion, we may as well use an RNG machine and pray that we hit an eliminator.

2. There are unknown factions and many different goals. There's no way to know who is in Rayse's gang right now. So what? Since when do villagers know who the eliminators are from the start?

We can reasonably assume that there is at least one eliminator equivalent, probably more. We might not learn what people's roles were when they die, but we can still analyze their behavior and see if it is different than usual, or detrimental to the village. In MR10, another game with no role reveals upon death, Aman was an eliminator, and he placed a last minute vote on someone with no explanation, solidifying their lynch. That was a massive shift in behavior, and one that should have gotten him lynched. Instead, the village was too busy bemoaning the lack of information to catch it. We don't learn roles upon death, but we can still look for unhelpful behavior, manipulation, and strange behavioral shifts.

3. You claim that there's no way to separate people into villagers and eliminators, which makes me think that you're not village. If you're truly village, you'd have a much better idea of how people are divided into village and nonvillage in this game.

4. This point is connected to three. You say that there are no clear village and eliminator groups. I'm pretty sure that there is at least a village equivalent. If you are village, you should have an idea of what I'm talking about. If not, rereading your GM PM might help.

All of the reasons for voting D1 that you claimed are invalid this game are perfectly valid. I think that you have another reason for not voting, and claiming the four points up above are invalid is just your excuse. PK.

[Magestar he/him]

1 minute ago, The Only Joe said:

I think if you don't know your alignment/Faction, you're probably an Independent. At least, that's how I interpreted the rules.

I'll take that.  It would fit with what I know of my role.  It pretty closely matches an independent from another game I have played.  

[Paranoid King he/him]

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

PK, all of those reasons for voting D1 apply perfectly to this game.

1. This is a game of SE. Most of the village's power comes from the lynch, and the lynch isn't very effective unless people discuss things. Without discussion, we may as well use an RNG machine and pray that we hit an eliminator.

Note later posts, in which I agree that votes aren't that effective in generating discussion. There are ways of discussing things that don't require votes. In addition, you'll notice that this thread has 5 pages of discussion before 24 hours have passed, and is noted as a hot topic.

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

2. There are unknown factions and many different goals. There's no way to know who is in Rayse's gang right now. So what? Since when do villagers know who the eliminators are from the start?

First of all, I can't find in the rules where it says, "Rayse and his faction are eliminators. Unless all the eliminators die, everyone else loses."

Secondly, none of my goals require me to specifically target Rayse's gang. They're just another faction, people!

Thirdly, how are you supposed to find out who Rayse's gang is in this game? Even if you get a good hunch and kill someone, the write-up doesn't reveal that person's role!

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

We can reasonably assume that there is at least one eliminator equivalent, probably more. We might not learn what people's roles were when they die, but we can still analyze their behavior and see if it is different than usual, or detrimental to the village. In MR10, another game with no role reveals upon death, Aman was an eliminator, and he placed a last minute vote on someone with no explanation, solidifying their lynch. That was a massive shift in behavior, and one that should have gotten him lynched. Instead, the village was too busy bemoaning the lack of information to catch it. We don't learn roles upon death, but we can still look for unhelpful behavior, manipulation, and strange behavioral shifts.

Here's an interesting thing: Everyone has different goals. You could say that everyone is an eliminator, because there's no common win condition. And yes, some people act differently when their goal is different from normal. For example, I'm not lynching D1 because my win condition isn't to kill another faction. My goal is different from normal, and so is everyone else's.

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

3. You claim that there's no way to separate people into villagers and eliminators, which makes me think that you're not village. If you're truly village, you'd have a much better idea of how people are divided into village and nonvillage in this game.

Wha...Huh? From the story at the beginning, it looks like cultivation wants to kill Rayse, and Rayse wants to kill everyone. So what you're saying is that Rayse is an eliminator, Cultivation's gang is village, and everyone else doesn't count? Yep, I guess I'm not truly village because I didn't understand that.

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

4. This point is connected to three. You say that there are no clear village and eliminator groups. I'm pretty sure that there is at least a village equivalent. If you are village, you should have an idea of what I'm talking about. If not, rereading your GM PM might help.

Alright, I checked my GM PM. Not one mention of villager, and not one mention of eliminator. Odd, that. Another interesting thing to note is the line marked "alignment", which can be filled in with either independent or a specific faction. Still not one mention of villager or eliminator.

44 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

All of the reasons for voting D1 that you claimed are invalid this game are perfectly valid. I think that you have another reason for not voting, and claiming the four points up above are invalid is just your excuse. PK.

I have no reason to vote. But I have no reason not to vote. Do you need proof? Arraenae. In order to prove that I have nothing to lose from voting, that vote will remain until the end of the cycle, unless someone more interesting shows up.

 

Edit: by the way, would you say that this person is an eliminator, or a villager? I'd like to see your unique take on this, arraenae:

Shasharra

Homeworld: Nalthis

Starting World: Nalthis

Alignment: Independent

Starting Investiture: {25}
 

Goal - Avid Researcher: Successfully use the Collaborate action with two different targets. Successfully use the Interview action with two different targets. Successfully Publish while on Nalthis.
 

Goal - Prove Your Theory: Successfully use the Special Craft Nightblood.
 

Goal - True Love: Talaxin must end the game Alive.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Paranoid King
Added question