The Count Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Any one else feel this from reading the WoR chapters? I mean maybe it is just my prejudice but it seems like she fits into the 'older mentor' trope from fantasy fiction too well. Shallan seems to be on a more classical type of hero's journey and one of the ley points of development in that device is the death of the significant mentor.. usually leaving work unfinished for the protagonist. That would mean Jasnah = death. Also Shallan's comments on how her life is going do well sets my imminent-death-o-meter into overdrive. So Theory... early in WoR, Jasnah Kholin will die or be killed leaving Shallan to convince the world of the danger and to find Urithiru. EDIT: Also another thought... Jasnah's killing of the four men in Karbranth (sp?) was probably not legal, and she is a surgebinder.. you see where I am going with this? She is definitely in line for a visit from Darkness. Edited January 22, 2014 by The Count 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Maybe she'll be presumed dead but teleported. Old mentors may appear dead in fantasy, but they tend to come back from it, sometimes more powerful. The best way to avoid that convention is not to kill them. Or not to give them powers. When superheroes' parents die, they don't come back. But once characters have magic, they just won't die. edit: Maybe like this... Jasnah is presumed dead, but actually teleported to Urithiru and spends the entire book there. When they find the city in the end, she's already there and has read dozens of books. Edited January 22, 2014 by Morsk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Also Shallan's comments on how her life is going do well sets my imminent-death-o-meter into overdrive.Yeah, I read that and thought, "Oh no, shallan... Be scared again. Don't you read books?. You should know better."I didn't initially think we'd learned enough of Jasnah's hinted at secrets for her to die yet but your post reminded me of the cover flap excerpt. It talks about shallan bearing the terrible burden of having to prevent the return of the voidbringers and making it to the shattered plains was more difficult than imagined. It doesn't seem preventing the voidbringers would really be her burden (she's just helping right now) unless Jasnah were out of the picture. There is only so much room on a cover flap so maybe I'm over analyzing a summary. Edited January 22, 2014 by Awesomeness summoned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Jasnah is a mentor, but the is only one facet of her character. I think Sanderson can do more with her. Her and Kaladin interacting will be very interesting. I'm okay with character death, but only if it will help the story. I think killing Jasnah would be detrimental at this point. Also being a mentor does not always mean death. Sazed from Mistborn was kind of a mentor and he didn't die. If Sanderson did kill off Jasnah, I'm sure he would do it in the best way possible. But I don't think she is doomed just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) No no no no no I refuse to accept Jasnah dying. Anyone but Jasnah. How about Dalinar? Dalinar would better dead than Jasnah. So... yeah, I guess you can say I agree that Jasnah's life is in danger. Really not liking the cliffhanger. And of course, the Audible description of the book says that Shallan has to find Urithiru, and doesn't mention Jasnah. No amount of can properly express my feelings here. I've always thought of Sanderson as more of a Robert Jordan type, but then I thought he was going to channel GRRM for Dalinar and now I'm scared for Jasnah. Edited January 22, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 No no no no no I refuse to accept Jasnah dying. Anyone but Jasnah. How about Dalinar? Dalinar would better dead than Jasnah. So... yeah, I guess you can say I agree that Jasnah's life is in danger. Really not liking the cliffhanger. And of course, the Audible description of the book says that Shallan has to find Urithiru, and doesn't mention Jasnah. No amount of can properly express my feelings here. I've always thought of Sanderson as more of a Robert Jordan type, but then I thought he was going to channel GRRM for Dalinar and now I'm scared for Jasnah. The cliffhanger was an effective hook, I guess. If Sanderson killed Jasnah in chapter 6 of WoR that would leave a lot hanging with her character. Great opportunities would be lost by Jasnah dying. After Kaladin, Jasnah is my favorite character, so I admit I'm a bit biased. Still, I think objectively killing Jasnah would be a mistake at this point. Even GRRM didn't kill characters that were still useful to the story. Jasnah getting kidnapped on the other hand might work. However, how would her attackers make it off the ship without being turned into crystal? Another matter, as powerful as Jasnah is, if she dies hopefully it would be in a blaze of glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fistsofrage Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 We absolutely cannot lose Jasnah. Absolutely not!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Shallan finding Urithiru could just be referring to the fact that it is from Shallan's viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chikinllama Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I figured that if Shallan and Jasnah make it to the shattered plains, then they would become Kaladin's responsibility to protect, since Dalinar wants him to cover all of his family members, and both Jasnah and Shallan now fit that description... Edit: Is anyone else getting the feeling that Shallan and Jasnah won't make it to the shattered plains until the end if the book? I mean, just making it there with a few chapters of exposition would just be to easy, right? Edited January 22, 2014 by chikinllama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I think it's a little early for her to die. There hasn't been enough build-up in my opinion. She seems to be driving herself pretty hard, and she believes she doesn't have much time left (which sounded personal to me, more like "I've got terminal cancer and two months to live," not a general "something is coming in 62 days, I don't have much time to stop it"), both of which could suggest she is aware (or thinks she is aware) of some disaster coming her way. But that's the best support I can muster for the "Jasnah will die" theory. Relying on literary tropes is a really bad idea with Brandon, because he likes to stomp them pretty hard. Yes, he follows some, but he also rejects or flips many more. I try to avoid casting the characters as their obvious stereotypical roles - Kaladin the Hero, Jasnah the Mentor, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fistsofrage Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I figured that if Shallan and Jasnah make it to the shattered plains, then they would become Kaladin's responsibility to protect, since Dalinar wants him to cover all of his family members, and both Jasnah and Shallan now fit that description... Edit: Is anyone else getting the feeling that Shallan and Jasnah won't make it to the shattered plains until the end if the book? I mean, just making it there with a few chapters of exposition would just be to easy, right? More like by the middle of the book. We don't have to be with them every step of the way, and it shouldn't take 62 days to go from Kharbranth to the shattered plains, especially by sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I agree with Argent, I doubt Jasnah will die in the immediate scene. If she does die in WoR, it will be much later in the book. It is too soon for Jasnah to die productively, imo. And I think that chikin and fists are right that it will be a while before they get to the shattered plains. There will definitely be some journey before destination . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydrogenAlpha Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Maybe she'll be presumed dead but teleported. Old mentors may appear dead in fantasy, but they tend to come back from it, sometimes more powerful. Unfortunately Brandon does never bring back the dead ( at least not in a physical way ) But you can't be mad that he kills off a character ! SPOILER: For example Lightsong and Kelsier's deaths were both heroic and necessary - Lightsong even died happy, because he finally found purpose in his existence. What i want to say is that if Jasnah dies, she won't come back, but Brandon will manage to give her a worthy death, that doesn't leave you emotionally crushed. Bittersweet endings, i guess. Edited January 22, 2014 by HydrogenAlpha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Maybe she'll be presumed dead but teleported. Old mentors may appear dead in fantasy, but they tend to come back from it, sometimes more powerful. The best way to avoid that convention is not to kill them. Or not to give them powers. When superheroes' parents die, they don't come back. But once characters have magic, they just won't die. edit: Maybe like this... Jasnah is presumed dead, but actually teleported to Urithiru and spends the entire book there. When they find the city in the end, she's already there and has read dozens of books. If she does, she'll be calling herself "Jasnah the White" :-) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) "A Radiant is never late, Shallan Davar, nor is she early. She arrives precisely when she means to." -- Jasnalf the Grey Edited January 29, 2014 by Argent 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I fell this too. A person can only dogde the bullet so many times, eventually somebody will have sucess and kill her. I think that she are in deep problem because she are telling important things too fast, in the same chapter she booked Shallan and Adolin and talked meters of the surgebinder process, and worse she gived a guide book to radiant powers to Shallan, too much in to little time =( Edited January 22, 2014 by Natans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaokeang Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 While Jasnah is a mentor to Shallan it is the blind leading the blind. I don't think Jasnah knows much more than WE do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Well, sanderson almost saved kelsier just to filp the "mentor death" trope. And kelsier's death was right for the story. So he may not want to kill mentors. I hope jasnah survives. she's one of my favourite characters, and i want to see more of her. On the other hand, she may end up with a shard, becoming a goddes while still remaining atheist "I don't belive I exist, but you can feel free to do so" (ok, if it ever happened, she would become a naytheist, because that's the logical step in a world with demonstrable higher beings, but still I liked the idea too much) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) On the other hand, she may end up with a shard, becoming a goddes while still remaining atheist To be fair to her, it's not like the Shards are really gods. She is right in that there's no real point in worshiping the Almighty. Shards are men and women with a lot of power, sure, and some of them may have even created humans - but that just makes them the equivalent of aliens creating new life. I don't think Jasnah would be liable to change her views in the event that she took up a Shard. There may very well be some sort of god in the Cosmere (whatever made Adonalsium in the first place?) but the Shards don't count. Edited January 22, 2014 by Moogle 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummi Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Jasnah will use her Transportation surge and get herself and shallan of that burning boat ! she will not die! I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 To be fair to her, it's not like the Shards are really gods. She is right in that there's no real point in worshiping the Almighty. Shards are men and women with a lot of power, sure, and some of them may have even created humans - but that just makes them the equivalent of aliens creating new life. I don't think Jasnah would be liable to change her views in the event that she took up a Shard. There may very well be some sort of god in the Cosmere (whatever made Adonalsium in the first place?) but the Shards don't count. That depends on what your view of what a god is. For the modern world, Christianity has heavily influenced the concept of God as an omnipotent, omniscient being who created the universe. If you're a Mormon, God is a person who ascended and created the planet, or something similar. For the ancient Greeks, the gods were the children of the Titans, so they didn't create the world or the universe and they weren't omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) That depends on what your view of what a god is. For the modern world, Christianity has heavily influenced the concept of God as an omnipotent, omniscient being who created the universe. If you're a Mormon, God is a person who ascended and created the planet, or something similar. For the ancient Greeks, the gods were the children of the Titans, so they didn't create the world or the universe and they weren't omnipotent. That's a good point. I suppose I should have rephrased it as Shards only being Gods in more of a Greek sense. And even then, worshiping them really is sort of pointless. They don't have control over the afterlife, and they're not going to make your life a hellish miserable experience if you don't worship them, unlike the Greek gods. Then again, I suppose you could make an argument that Harmony is playing favorites in Alloy of Law. Damnit Sazed. You could be doing so much better than you are. Scadrial could be a paradise, and instead you let men toil and work and die and feel pain. Edited January 22, 2014 by Moogle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Although you are correct in saying that Jasnah would not need to change her views. She would not regard such a being as a god or worthy of worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 You can have a god who is an atheist. That was Lightsong's whole character arc in Warbreaker. Jasnah would be an interesting Goddess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 If the shard was splintered, I wonder who she would have to share eternity with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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