Adonalsium was, essentially, useless?

[hoidhunter]

 

 

Also, as a side note, it isn't that Sazed can only paint in black or white but it is that he increasingly can only use equal amounts of black and white. The longer he holds Preservation and Ruin the less he is able to push back against the Intents. In the same way, even if you had access to all colors but you had to use set amounts of those colors you would be equally unable to do anything unique.

When I was a kid in art class...I always loved mixing paints more than using them...usually ended up brown...

[ParadoxicalZen]

(We don't actually have a canon term for the trait each Shard has so while I have used Intent in the past, I'm refraining now) Didn't mean to classify the traits as emotions but you got the point I was trying to make right? And the point I was making about Saze is that the two traits are sides of the same coin, said coin being Harmony, and that over time - as the Shards are intermingled now and would take effort to split apart - they will merge completely and these two conflicting desires will eventually balance out.

And apparently, some holders are still quite easily resisting their Shard traits.

Edited May 21, 2016 by ParadoxSpren

[Vissy]

So we've established that Sazed finds it hard to act due to holding two diametrically opposed Shards.

 

What if we gave Sazed a third Shard - say, hmm, who was that guy who was so conveniently attacking Scadrial again? Autonomy?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Varangian

[Jondesu]

Autonomy balancing those might actually be perfect. He might be able to act much more effectively, and I suspect it would keep him from being likely to act in harmful ways, even if his personality becomes subsumed.

jW

[Asperity]

(We don't actually have a canon term for the trait each Shard has so while I have used Intent in the past, I'm refraining now) Didn't mean to classify the traits as emotions but you got the point I was trying to make right? And the point I was making about Saze is that the two traits are sides of the same coin, said coin being Harmony, and that over time - as the Shards are intermingled now and would take effort to split apart - they will merge completely and these two conflicting desires will eventually balance out.

And apparently, some holders are still quite easily resisting their Shard traits.

I thought Intent WAS the canonical term.

[Argel]

I think Brandon started out using "Mandate" and then a Sharder popularized "Intent" so much so that Brandon has starting using it. I think that's the history -- I recall reading a theory thread recently that mentioned X number of years ago "Intent" wasn't in use yet, so WoB from back then wre using little-i "intent".

[Blightsong]

I highly doubt that Adonalsium was unable to act. I think that rather, he was had his own personality and was just a being until he was shattered, the which the power gained intent.

If he was useless, I highly doubt he would have been able to create planets, galaxies, beings, ect.

Sazed sheds some light onto this in the Epigraphs of The Hero of Ages.

"By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action.

These two minds were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place—but I believe they were not there originally. For both powers could be detached from the minds that ruled them."

[CaptainRyan]

(We don't actually have a canon term for the trait each Shard has so while I have used Intent in the past, I'm refraining now) Didn't mean to classify the traits as emotions but you got the point I was trying to make right? And the point I was making about Saze is that the two traits are sides of the same coin, said coin being Harmony, and that over time - as the Shards are intermingled now and would take effort to split apart - they will merge completely and these two conflicting desires will eventually balance out.

And apparently, some holders are still quite easily resisting their Shard traits.

 

At the moment, I would probably lean against the idea that Harmony's dual intents of Ruin and Preservation will "merge" into some other Intent but I am, by no means, claiming that is impossible. 

 

As for some Vessels easily resisting their Shard's Intents, can you point me to an example? My head-canon is that all of the Vessels were being overwhelmed by the Intents of their Shards - I would love to correct that misconception if it is wrong.

[natc]

The closest one to being unaffected that comes to mind would probably be Odium, but that's apparently more just his personality not being much different (if at all) after being overwhelmed due to being a pretty hateful guy in the first place.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I think it was WoB either from the AMA or the SoS tour, does anyone know the one I'm thinking of

[Pechvarry]

Something to note, to the credit of the OP:

A perfect glass ball is dropped on the ground.  It shatters.  Are all of those shards identical in size and shape?  Do they all have counterpoints?

 

If you were to look at a cross-section of this sphere, you would have a ring which you could view as two diametrically opposed semi-circles.  Pre-shattering, they held each other together in perfect neutrality.  That cross-section, now shattered, includes bits from the left or the right, and has chunks missing.  

 

In essence, you cannot define any single trait pre-shattering, because it was part of a cohesive whole.  What makes us think Adonalsium would shatter any more perfectly?

[CaptainRyan]

Something to note, to the credit of the OP:

A perfect glass ball is dropped on the ground.  It shatters.  Are all of those shards identical in size and shape?  Do they all have counterpoints?

 

If you were to look at a cross-section of this sphere, you would have a ring which you could view as two diametrically opposed semi-circles.  Pre-shattering, they held each other together in perfect neutrality.  That cross-section, now shattered, includes bits from the left or the right, and has chunks missing.  

 

In essence, you cannot define any single trait pre-shattering, because it was part of a cohesive whole.  What makes us think Adonalsium would shatter any more perfectly?

 

Thanks for the support! I like your analogy and the thought process behind it. I emphasized the one line that really stuck out to me: Adonalsium might not have had different Intents because, at that time, they were simply a single Intent. Perhaps that Intent was balanced perfectly (which might lead to stagnation) or perhaps it was weighted in a certain way (which might lead to that becoming the dominant action).

We do have some WoB's about the Shattering of Adonalsium - for example, there is a WoB that states Adonalsium could have Shattered into different Shards; the sixteen (16) Shards we see now were not the only possible outcome of a broken Adonalsium. I guess, for your analogy, we could say that if we dropped identical spheres they would shatter differently. 

 

It was a good analogy and definitely shows that there is a lot to think about with Adonalsium's Shattering.

[WeiryWriter]

I think Brandon started out using "Mandate" and then a Sharder popularized "Intent" so much so that Brandon has starting using it. I think that's the history -- I recall reading a theory thread recently that mentioned X number of years ago "Intent" wasn't in use yet, so WoB from back then wre using little-i "intent".

 

To my knowledge there was never a canon term for what the fandom generally refers to as as a Shard's "Intent".  Mandate was only ever used by Brandon a single time, in the HoA epigraphs, by Sazed (who really wouldn't have had time to learn the "correct" in-world term at the time it was written).

 

Brandon may one day give us a canon term for this (like he did with Vessel/Shardholder) but for now Intent is the generally accepted, and understood, term and I see little use in trying to change that (beyond just being kind of confusing).

[Farnsworth]

In the Letter, Hoid says that Odium is Adonalsiums hate "taken completely out of context". So I would think that they mix nicely together inside of Adonalsium.

[CaptainRyan]

In the Letter, Hoid says that Odium is Adonalsiums hate "taken completely out of context". So I would think that they mix nicely together inside of Adonalsium.

 

The Intents definitely mix better together (we see that in Harmony, for example) and the letter to Hoid gives us another clue about how the Intents were better balanced in Adonalsium. The question I was posing is not "Do they mix nicely" but, rather, "When they are all mixed together would we end up, eventually, with the same paralysis that is happening to Harmony?" After Adonlasium created everything did it eventually reach a point where it could no longer act? Did the Intents balance too well? Or were the Intents over-balanced in one direction?

I guess the more meta-question is if, as some here have proposed, Adonalsium was truly a benevolent super-Shard then why would people want to shatter it?

[Blightsong]

I want to state this again, we know that Adonalsium was not useless. Humans, worlds, and the Cosmere would not exist if this was the case.

[CaptainRyan]

I want to state this again, we know that Adonalsium was not useless. Humans, worlds, and the Cosmere would not exist if this was the case.

 

If you read my earlier reply to Figberts you will see that I said: "After Adonlasium created everything did it eventually reach a point where it could no longer act?" 

In the same way that Harmony is capable of action now but, as per WoB, will find it harder and harder to act, Adonalsium itself might have, initially, been able to create many things but, over time, lost that ability due to Intent-paralysis. 

 

edit: Also, the very first post I made (the beginning of this thread) somewhat indirectly addressed this as well: "Perhaps Adonalsium was functionally inert by the time it was shattered? Perhaps those who shattered Adonalsium chose to do so because Adonalsium had become incapable of action?"

 

I am not saying Adonalsium was always useless but rather I am speculating that, over time, Adonalsium lost the ability to act or became overbalanced in one particular direction.

Edited June 3, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[thegatorgirl00]

edit: Also, the very first post I made (the beginning of this thread) somewhat indirectly addressed this as well: "Perhaps Adonalsium was functionally inert by the time it was shattered? Perhaps those who shattered Adonalsium chose to do so because Adonalsium had become incapable of action?"

 

I am not saying Adonalsium was always useless but rather I am speculating that, over time, Adonalsium lost the ability to act or became overbalanced in one particular direction.

I think it should be mentioned that another thing was involved during the time of the Shattering. Adonalsium may have been functionally inert not because of OIS, but because anything it tried to do was opposed by the anti-Adonalsium. Killing Adonalsium may have been an attempt for some (the good ones) to keep the anti-Adonalsium away.

Besides,the spren are Splinters of Honor. Some of them have conflicting Intents, like Honorspren and Cryptics, but together they made the Shard of Honor.

[CaptainRyan]

I think it should be mentioned that another thing was involved during the time of the Shattering. Adonalsium may have been functionally inert not because of OIS, but because anything it tried to do was opposed by the anti-Adonalsium. Killing Adonalsium may have been an attempt for some (the good ones) to keep the anti-Adonalsium away.

 

I think you might be referring to a misinterpreted WoB when you reference an "anti-Adonalsium".

Relevant discussion:

 

 

 

A similar question actually came up during last night's signing. Brandon talked about how the original question, the one that started the whole movement about a force and a weapon against Adonalsium, was essentially "Was there a force opposingAdonalsium?" And so he spoke how the phrasing gave him a lot of wiggle room - a single person opposing Adonalsium could be considered "a force." A group of people could be considered a force. He acknowledged that he understood the question was probably shooting for more of a "is their a Devil-like figure opposing Adonalsium's God-like figure," but he had enough room to avoid answering that. Mostly because he doesn't want to deal with how close Adonalsium may or may not be to the Judeo-Christian God.

 

This is Argent discussing the "anti-Adonalsium" theory in this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53163-sh-spoilers-adonalsium/?hl=%2Bforce+%2Bopposing+%2Badonalsium#entry406708

 

Brandon was deliberately vague about the "force" that was opposing Adonalsium. Many people have taken it must farther than he (Brandon) meant.

 

 

Besides,the spren are Splinters of Honor. Some of them have conflicting Intents, like Honorspren and Cryptics, but together they made the Shard of Honor.

 

I believe the spren are, in some cases, splinters of Adonalsium and, in other cases, are mixtures of Honor and Cultivation and, in other cases, may be closer to pure Honor and pure Cultivation etc etc. At this point I would say it is pretty tough to gauge which spren are which and how the interactions and mixtures of the various Shards and powers on Roshar affect the spren. That being said, I think you do bring up a good point about how splinters of a Shard can, possibly, have a different take on the Intent of the Shard. I wonder if that is possible and, if so, what ramifications it has.

[Blightsong]

If you read my earlier reply to Figberts you will see that I said: "After Adonlasium created everything did it eventually reach a point where it could no longer act?"

In the same way that Harmony is capable of action now but, as per WoB, will find it harder and harder to act, Adonalsium itself might have, initially, been able to create many things but, over time, lost that ability due to Intent-paralysis.

edit: Also, the very first post I made (the beginning of this thread) somewhat indirectly addressed this as well: "Perhaps Adonalsium was functionally inert by the time it was shattered? Perhaps those who shattered Adonalsium chose to do so because Adonalsium had become incapable of action?"

I am not saying Adonalsium was always useless but rather I am speculating that, over time, Adonalsium lost the ability to act or became overbalanced in one particular direction.

This idea makes too me assumptions for me to buy it. How do we know that Adonalsium was those powers themselves? How do we know that Adonalsium hasn't always been, as opposed to having been affected over the time since his existence. How do we know that the shards are all opposed enough to have paralyzed him. In fact, we have WoB that not all of the Shards are perfectly opposed like preservation and ruin were, and that alone should disprove this idea.

[CaptainRyan]

This idea makes too me assumptions for me to buy it. How do we know that Adonalsium was those powers themselves? How do we know that Adonalsium hasn't always been, as opposed to having been affected over the time since his existence. How do we know that the shards are all opposed enough to have paralyzed him. In fact, we have WoB that not all of the Shards are perfectly opposed like preservation and ruin were, and that alone should disprove this idea.

Blighting, this is the theory section haha. Of course I am making assumptions. I am trying to speculate, given the information we have, on why the original sixteen vessels would conspire against Adonalsium. Obviously, some of them did it for greed or power but there were probably good people involved as well; why would a good person agree to destroy a benevolent deity? My guess, based on what we have seen of the Shards, is that either Adonalsium was paralyzed OR became overbalanced towards a certain Intent and, therefore, some people felt Adonalsium needed to be Shattered.

You feel like the WoB stating that the Shards do not all have opposite Intents disproves the idea. I say the WoB stating that the Shards could have split into different Intents shows that Adonalsium was more than just these sixteen Intents and, therefore, could have ended up paralyzed. I am not saying this is solid fact and I candidly recognize that I am making assumptions but I do not feel like this is left-field speculation.

We know the Shattering occurred.

We know that some of the original Vessels were good people.

I assume they had a reason for Shattering Adonalsium.

I assume Adonalsium responds to Intents in a similar manner to its Shards.

That's about it haha. Nothing too wacky, or so I feel. Do you have another theory as to why Adonalsium was Shattered? What do you think motivated the "good" Vessels to rise up and kill their god?

[Blightsong]

I'm not all that convinced that the vessels pre shattering were good people. Either way, good people can easily do bad things for the kind of power that having a shard grants. I think the power itself is a pretty good motivator.

[CaptainRyan]

I'm not all that convinced that the vessels pre shattering were good people. Either way, good people can easily do bad things for the kind of power that having a shard grants. I think the power itself is a pretty good motivator.

A valid theory with the information we have.

One thing to remember is that Hoid described Ati as a "kind and generous" man. So, there is room to believe that at least one original Vessel was a good person. I would be surprised if every single original Vessel was a scumbag haha.

Also, personally, I think the "lust for power" cliche would not be very Brandon-esque but that is simply my opinion.

[Yata]

Yeah the only information we have about the reason of the Shattering come a third hand source and may be really wrong about.

 

We know that at least a couple of Vessels was ok as people, and this made me think about why they decided to kill God.... Probably it was more a matter of "we have to do it" than "we want do it".... Maybe Adonalsium's priority wasn't the same of the Yolish or maybe they are tricked to kill him/her/it

 

In the end we (or at lest I) don't know what was the Cosmere's Status Quo before the Shattering... it's possible that they need a great amount of Investiture to do something and with Adonalsium this was impossible.... we have a lot of possibilities.

 

PS: when I talked about the great amount of Investiture I meant:

Adonalsium is the source of all the Cosmere's Investiture and if He "sended"/spread Investiture in the whole Cosmere in the same way a Shard sends/spread Investiture in his Shardworld... Also with 16 times a Shard's Investiture, the Cosmere was really a lower Investiture place than now on Major Shardworld.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Yata

[Knight Oblivion]

Another idea to chew upon is that the original vessels that Shattered Adonalsium were seeking self-determination. Adonalsium most likely had a plan for the Cosmere as suggested in the response letter in WoR. Maybe the original vessels felt that the people of the Cosmere had their fates controlled by Adonalsium and wanted freedom from said control.

The point being that we don't even really know what Adonalsium was. It might be the self-sapient source of investiture (similar to how Splinters can gain awareness) or it could have been a biological being in control of vast power similar to how the Shards work. All we really know is that it was powerful, viewed as God by some, and apparently had some kind of plan. We don't even know if it would be effected by Intent paralysis like Sazed is starting to experience. Adonalsium, for all we know, could have been a full being not plagued by inaction similar to how humans are.