Adonalsium was, essentially, useless?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

We see in Harmony the problem of holding two shards with opposite Intents: creeping paralysis. It becomes harder and harder for Sazed to act.

 

Adnolasium is the combined form of the sixteen shards... and their Intents. Perhaps Adonalsium was functionally inert by the time it was shattered? Perhaps those who shattered Adonalsium chose to do so because Adonalsium had become incapable of action?

 

Ok Sharders, fire away!

Edited May 20, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

I don't think this would be the case. Not all Shards have a perfect opposite Ruin/Preservation style, so Adonalsium would not have this problem. Also, Adonalsium didn't hold the Sixteen Shards. Adonalsium held one power, that was eventually Shattered. When he/she/it held it, the power might have been one overarching Intent, therefore, he/she/it would not be affected by the Intent paralysis

[Edgedancer he/him]

I don't think that Adonalasium was literally made up of the 16 Intents in the same way the Shards are, after all Adanolasium could have shattered into Shards with different intents. I'd say it's more likely that the Intents are something along the lines of imprints left from whatever kind of mind Adonalasium had, which likely used to be more balanced.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

[snip] Not all Shards have a perfect opposite Ruin/Preservation style, so Adonalsium would not have this problem.  

 

Ah, I was under the impression each Shard was mirrored by an opposite Intent. Is this confirmed by a WoB?

 

 

 

Also, Adonalsium didn't hold the Sixteen Shards. Adonalsium held one power, that was eventually Shattered. When he/she/it held it, the power might have been one overarching Intent, therefore, he/she/it would not be affected by the Intent paralysis

 

My exact wording was that Adonalsium is the "combined form of the sixteen shards" or, in other words, if you put the sixteen shards back together the result would be what Adonalsium was. I am theorizing that Adonalsium was eventually rendered paralyzed by Opposite Intent Syndrome (OIS). I do, however, respect your disagreement. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I don't think that Adonalasium was literally made up of the 16 Intents in the same way the Shards are, after all Adanolasium could have shattered into Shards with different intents. I'd say it's more likely that the Intents are something along the lines of imprints left from whatever kind of mind Adonalasium had, which likely used to be more balanced.

 

I agree - Adonalsium could have shattered differently (I believe there is a WoB about this). That does not, necessarily, negate the speculation about the paralysis caused by OIS (Opposite Intent Syndrome). But the fact that Adonalsium shattered into shards that have Intents leads me to believe that Adonalsium contained these Intents (and possibly more) which means that Adonalsium possibly could have reached some form of equilibrium after many, many years. This equilibrium might have been paralysis but perhaps it ended up being weighted towards a certain Intent. 

Perhaps that is a better theory - after thousands of years Adonalsium either became paralyzed by OIS or else became unbalanced towards a certain Intent or mix of Intents. This paralysis, or imbalance, is what caused (some) of the original Vessels to begin plotting to take down Adonalsium.

Edited June 3, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Nedyah Drallid]

Ah, I was under the impression each Shard was mirrored by an opposite Intent. Is this confirmed by a WoB?

Ruin/Preservation

Dominion/Devotion

Honor/Odium?

Endowment/Ruin

Autonomy/Devotion

Cultivation/Ruin

 

I don't know if this fully works, as ruin seems to be the opposite of a lot of them)

 

(This also made me think, if Dominion and Devotion were in a relationship, who would be in charge?  ) 

[Jondesu he/him]

There's a WoB that states not all Shards have opposites, and few if any have direct opposites like Ruin and Preservation was.

jW

[CaptainRyan he/him]

There's a WoB that states not all Shards have opposites, and few if any have direct opposites like Ruin and Preservation was.

jW

 

Thanks for the heads up. I wondered if perhaps the opposites were some of the shards we don't know but apparently that is incorrect.

Which leaves the possible theory that Adonalsium ended up being unbalanced by having more of one Intent than another... maybe?

 

 

edit:

 

(This also made me think, if Dominion and Devotion were in a relationship, who would be in charge?   ) 

 

Dominion would be in charge but would be so devoted to Devotion that Dominion would only do what Devotion approved of. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Nedyah Drallid]

Dominion would be in charge but would be so devoted to Devotion that Dominion would only do what Devotion approved of. 

I actually think Devotion would be devoted to Dominion, not the other way around. We see preservation want to preserve, not make ruin want to preserve hime, savvy?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I actually think Devotion would be devoted to Dominion, not the other way around. We see preservation want to preserve, not make ruin want to preserve hime, savvy?

 

Ahh, but Devotion Invested in Dominion!

The other option is that Dominion dominated Devotion and Devotion, in turn, is devoted to Dominion... but that sounds a bit Stockholm Syndrome-y/abusive relationship-esque so I went with a more light-hearted joke haha

[tobar14 he/him]

I don't think this would be the case. Not all Shards have a perfect opposite Ruin/Preservation style, so Adonalsium would not have this problem. Also, Adonalsium didn't hold the Sixteen Shards. Adonalsium held one power, that was eventually Shattered. When he/she/it held it, the power might have been one overarching Intent, therefore, he/she/it would not be affected by the Intent paralysis

 

 

There's a WoB that states not all Shards have opposites, and few if any have direct opposites like Ruin and Preservation was.

jW

Uhhhh, Ruin and Preservation are not exact opposites.

 

Ruin and Cultivation would be.

 

Ruin: Intelligent Decay (Negative Change)

Preservation: Stop things from changing

Cultivation: Not really sure how cultivation works, but pretty sure Brandon has said that this is more of an opposite to Ruin than Preservation is. (Positive Change)

[tobar14 he/him]

Ruin/Preservation

Dominion/Devotion

Honor/Odium?

Endowment/Ruin

Autonomy/Devotion

Cultivation/Ruin

 

I don't know if this fully works, as ruin seems to be the opposite of a lot of them)

 

(This also made me think, if Dominion and Devotion were in a relationship, who would be in charge?  ) 

That's not how it works

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Uhhhh, Ruin and Preservation are not exact opposites.

 

Ruin and Cultivation would be.

 

Ruin: Intelligent Decay (Negative Change)

Preservation: Stop things from changing

Cultivation: Not really sure how cultivation works, but pretty sure Brandon has said that this is more of an opposite to Ruin than Preservation is. (Positive Change)

 

It seems like Preservation would be the direct opposite to both Ruin and Cultivation and that Ruin and Cultivation are also direct opposites of each other.

Ruin <- - - - - - - -> Preservation <- - - - - - - -> Cultivation

Maybe something like that where Preservation is in the middle resisting both the concept of decay and growth.

Edited May 20, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Eki]

Is Sazed really getting paralyzed? He's chosen not to interfere too much with mortals, but that's not necessarily a direct consequence of his Intents. Is there a WoB or book quote about it?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Is Sazed really getting paralyzed? He's chosen not to interfere too much with mortals, but that's not necessarily a direct consequence of his Intents. Is there a WoB or book quote about it?

 

Check out this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22548-concerning-harmonys-inactiveness/ and look for WeiryWriter's comment that has several WoB's and their sources. Actually, I will just copy the WoB's below with thanks to WeiryWriter for quoting them:

 

Quote

Question

Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

 

(source)

 

Quote

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

 

(source)

 

Quote

Question

 

The epigraphs for The Way of Kings, that were talking about how the various Shardholders are influenced by their shards over time--how does that impact someone like Harmony, with multiple shards?

Brandon Sanderson

 

The main effect it's having on Harmony right now is his inability to act sometimes, because his two sides are pushing, and so he is having trouble being proactive. It'd take a long time before it really becomes manifest, but he's had several hundred years, so it's starting to have an effect.

 

(source)

[tobar14 he/him]

It seems like Preservation would be the direct opposite to both Ruin and Cultivation and that Ruin and Cultivation are also direct opposites of each other.

Ruin <- - - - - - - -> Preservation <- - - - - - - -> Cultivation

Maybe something like that where Preservation is in the middle resisting both the concept of decay and growth.

Good point

[tobar14 he/him]

What if Adonalsium is Brandon Sanderson.  His mind broke apart into 16 pieces, and each piece(s) is writing a fantasy series. When you put it all back together you get Brandon all together.

[Pathfinder]

I forget the whole quote, but there was a part that said how Odium was god's divine hatred without the other attributes to be a guiding force. I take that to mean when all the intents were together in harmony (the word, not the shard), they guided each other. Basically what happened in Divergent. Normal people have the whole range of emotions that are balanced and governed by the others, while the genetically damaged are utterly focused on one attribute and come into conflict with the other genetically damaged with different attributes. 

[Nyali she/her]

I always thought that the Intent of Adonalsium was something like "Creation" or "Existence." We know that Adonalsium was at the very least able to create Splinters (the WoB about there being Splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar pre-shattering), so it wasn't totally paralyzed. It also created and designed all of the worlds that predate the shattering.
 
Also, Preservation and Cultivation are opposites. So are Ruin and Cultivation (and, of course, Ruin and Preservation). Building something up, breaking it down, and keeping it the same are all opposites of each other, depending on how you see it. Dominion and Devotion are not opposites - Dominion is sovereignty over a section of land, Devotion is dedicating yourself to something or someone. They're totally different. I don't really see any axes where they'd be on opposite ends.
 
To break down the Intents into simpler words to compare them:
 
Cultivation: Making other things better/stronger.
Ruin: Breaking other things down.
Preservation: Keeping other things they way they are.
Survival: Continuing to exist.
Endowment: Giving of yourself to others.
Autonomy: Independence/freedom.
Honor: Keeping true to an ideal.
Dominion: Having control over the land.
Devotion: Dedicating yourself to an ideal.
Odium: Hatred of everything.
 
So, let's see if we can make some groupings, Allomancy-style:
 
Internal: Survival, Autonomy, Honor, Devotion, Odium
External: Preservation, Cultivation, Endowment, Dominion, Ruin
 
Improving: Endowment, Devotion, Honor, Cultivation
Maintaining: Autonomy, Preservation, Survival
Destroying: Ruin, Odium
??: Dominion
 
Physical: Ruin, Preservation, Cultivation, Survival, Dominion
Idealogical: Honor, Odium, Devotion, Autonomy
??: Endowment
 
 
Hmm. I'm having trouble coming up with 3-4 Allomancy-style aspects here. I've been wondering for a while if it's possible to work them into such a pattern, but I really don't think you can.


EDIT:

I forget the whole quote, but there was a part that said how Odium was god's divine hatred without the other attributes to be a guiding force.

 
I believe this is the quote you're looking for: "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." (from the Second Letter - Words of Radiance, chapter 71 epigraph)

Edited May 20, 2016 by Nyali

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I forget the whole quote, but there was a part that said how Odium was god's divine hatred without the other attributes to be a guiding force. I take that to mean when all the intents were together in harmony (the word, not the shard), they guided each other. Basically what happened in Divergent. Normal people have the whole range of emotions that are balanced and governed by the others, while the genetically damaged are utterly focused on one attribute and come into conflict with the other genetically damaged with different attributes. 

 

True enough but shardic Intent seems to be a very powerful force and if Adonalsium truly contained all Intents then it is possible Adonalsium reached a state of equilibrium/zen/paralysis. The Shattering might have been an attempt at bringing the powers of creation back to the Cosmere.

                       ^

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<- - - - - - - - - o - - - - - - - - ->

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This highly realistic ASCII drawing shows exactly how Adonalsium was rendered inert by achieving perfect balance among all possible Intents!

 

 

edit:

 

Dominion: Having control over the land.

 

 

Not to be nitpicky but why do you think Dominion refers only to land?

Edited May 20, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Unodus he/him]

Expanding on Nyali's categorization, there also seems to be a theme of shards that give and shards that take.

 

Give: Honor, Devotion, Preservation, Cultivation, Endowment, Autonomy(?)
Take: Dominion, Ruin, Odium, Survival
 

Just an observation :V

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Is a human useless because they feel a multitude of emotions? The Shards might not necessarily have existed in the same way they did when they were Adonalsium, they may have only gained those characteristics upon the Shattering. I think, with time - providing Saze can resist the conflict long enough - and a change in Cognitive Perception, the Shards will eventually merge into Harmony completely.

[hoidhunter he/him]

I have to respectfully disagree with our OP.

 

As some of the other posters have pointed out...the 16 intents coexisting in one entity did not necessarily manifest as something that was ultimately neutral.  As I began reading the thread...I immediately thought of the quote from "the letter", He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

 

I feel that the limited ability to take action that we see in Harmony is a result of overspecialization.  Sazed can only try to preserve and ruin...whereas...someone (something) with a much broader range of intentions would be able to behave in a more diverse way.  If you only have black and white paint...and you have to use both...all you can make are shades of grey.  But with a broad spectrum of colors at your disposal...you can create many different shades.

 

We also have to bear in mind that we don't really know what adonalsium was.  The shards influence on the holder may be a result of a mortal person's limited ability to handle the power that is working through them...maybe original vessel or consciousness that controlled adonalsium was perfectly suited to handle it.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Is a human useless because they feel a multitude of emotions? The Shards might not necessarily have existed in the same way they did when they were Adonalsium, they may have only gained those characteristics upon the Shattering. I think, with time - providing Saze can resist the conflict long enough - and a change in Cognitive Perception, the Shards will eventually merge into Harmony completely.

 

Emotions do not make humans useless - we can agree on that! Intents, however, are not emotions. I hope we can also agree on that too. Honor is not an emotion, Ruin is not an emotion etc. Furthermore, the Shards are magical objects(?) of massive power and their Intents are overriding in all things. Ruin ruins things to the exclusion of all else. Honor is honorable to the exclusion of all else. The Vessels provide a certain mitigating effect at first but, overtime, the Vessel becomes less and less influential. Think of a human that is fanatically devoted to a certain ideal - they literally do not consider other options because, to them, there is only one option.

 

I also agree that the Shards did not exist in the same way they do now when they were a part of Adonalsium. We know Adonalsium could have Shattered into different Shards. On the other hand, I would argue that the Intents bound up in the Shards were a part of Adonalsium; I would find it quite strange if Adonalsium did not have some form of Intent but, somehow, the Shards gained Intents.

Lastly, I respectfully disagree that Sazed, without some sort of change in the situation, will be able to resist the inexorable opposite pulls of Ruin and Preservation. I think the following WoB strongly implies that Sazed is, overtime, becoming less and less able to act:

 

Quote

Question

 

The epigraphs for The Way of Kings, that were talking about how the various Shardholders are influenced by their shards over time--how does that impact someone like Harmony, with multiple shards?

Brandon Sanderson

 

The main effect it's having on Harmony right now is his inability to act sometimes, because his two sides are pushing, and so he is having trouble being proactive. It'd take a long time before it really becomes manifest, but he's had several hundred years, so it's starting to have an effect.

(source)

 

I do think that Sazed has options. He could try and acquire another Shard - that would definitely change the way the Intents are influencing him. I also have a theory that Sazed could voluntarily and temporarily give up a bit of one power in order to allow the other power's Intent to be stronger. That would allow him to act towards the stronger Intent. Then, after a while, he could take back up the power, release some of the other power, and allow the other Intent to be stronger for a while. By bouncing back and forth in this way he could, possibly, give himself space to act.

 

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree with our OP.

 

As some of the other posters have pointed out...the 16 intents coexisting in one entity did not necessarily manifest as something that was ultimately neutral.  As I began reading the thread...I immediately thought of the quote from "the letter", He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

 

I feel that the limited ability to take action that we see in Harmony is a result of overspecialization.  Sazed can only try to preserve and ruin...whereas...someone (something) with a much broader range of intentions would be able to behave in a more diverse way.  If you only have black and white paint...and you have to use both...all you can make are shades of grey.  But with a broad spectrum of colors at your disposal...you can create many different shades.

 

We also have to bear in mind that we don't really know what adonalsium was.  The shards influence on the holder may be a result of a mortal person's limited ability to handle the power that is working through them...maybe original vessel or consciousness that controlled adonalsium was perfectly suited to handle it.

 

While my original post was about Adonalsium being True Neutral and unable to act I did amend it later in this discussion to admit that Adonalsium might have not been True Neutral but, overtime, became heavily weighted in favor of a certain Intent/mix of Intents. Either way, I am not sure Adonalsium was some benevolent Super Shard that was a perfect mix of Mercy/Justice, Love/Hatred, Ruin/Preservation etc. Otherwise, why would the original 16 Vessels have Shattered Adonalsium? We know some of those original 16 Vessels were good people - what could have driven them to Shatter a "perfect" deity? My guess, at the moment, is that Adonalsium either became functionally inert due to balanced Intents affecting the holder over a long period or that some Intent/mix of Intents became dominant. This drove (some) of the original 16 Vessels to decide that *something* had to change.

 

Also, as a side note, it isn't that Sazed can only paint in black or white but it is that he increasingly can only use equal amounts of black and white. The longer he holds Preservation and Ruin the less he is able to push back against the Intents. In the same way, even if you had access to all colors but you had to use set amounts of those colors you would be equally unable to do anything unique.

[Eki]

Check out this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22548-concerning-harmonys-inactiveness/ and look for WeiryWriter's comment that has several WoB's and their sources. Actually, I will just copy the WoB's below with thanks to WeiryWriter for quoting them:

Quote

(source)

Quote

(source)

Quote

(source)

Ah, right! I had seen those WoBs, so I'm not sure why I had forgotten them...