Theory about Denth and Tonk Fah

[afeastforgeorge]

Several times in Warbreaker, we see Denth and Tonk Fah display surprising abilities through Vivenna's POV. 

 

Denth moves fast--"inhumanly so," according to one of the slum lords he confronts--while Tonk Fah is super strong. The explanation we're given for Denth is that he's super fast because he's a Returned (or proto-Returned), and the explanation for Tonk Fah is that he's just a strong guy. 

 

However, I have a different theory. First, I don't believe those answers fully explain what we see happen in the book (see explanation below). Second, I believe that there are several clues that seem to hint toward a different answer in a very understated, Sanderson-esque way: That one or both of these characters is using feruchemy (or possibly allomancy) to store and enhance traits: speed, in Denth's case, and strength, in Tonk's case. (I've tried to find other examples of this theory here and on Reddit and so far have not, but TBH the search functions on both sites are quite bad so if this is an existing theory please excuse the repost!)

 

Here's the evidence: 

 

DENTH: 

• Denth is known for being "inhumanly" fast. Several times, we see him display this ability while fighting, though only in brief flashes.
• The best example is in the confrontation between him and a slum lord who's meeting with Vivenna. Here's how she describes the confrontation:
  • "There were flashes--reflections of sunlight, and bodies moving too fast for Vivenna's shocked mind to follow. Then the motion stopped. Grable remained in his chair. Denth stood poised, his dueling blade sticking through the neck of one of the bodyguards. The bodyguard looked surprised, his hand still on his sword. Vivenna hadn't even seen Denth draw his weapon.
• Now, we know that Denth is not just an average guy. He is one of the five scholars and, like Vashar, some sort of Returned. However, I don't believe that explains the degree of speed he displays in this situation at all. 
• Denth moves so quickly that Vivenna, even with the enhanced perception from her Breath, sees only "flashes of color"--essentially a blur--when he moves. That implies that he's not just a little bit fast, but in fact too fast for the human eye to see.
• Vivenna blames it on her "shocked mind," but that explanation doesn't make sense--because everyone else in the room is shocked too. The guard who was stabbed looks "surprised" and hasn't even had time to draw his sword. Grable hasn't had time to stand up. It's almost as if time stopped for a second for everyone else but him.
• The only other case we've seen in the Cosmere of this kind of speed is through feruchemy (the inquisitors do it a few times in Hero of Ages) or bendalloy allomancy (which happens a few times in the Wax and Wayne books).
• And there's on evidence that one gains super speed simply by being a Returned. If that were the case, then Lightsong or Susebron could have used them during the final battle scene to gain the element of surprise. But they did not seem to have such an advantage, or anything more than slightly greater strength and speed through their "ideal" bodies.
• Of course one problem with this theory is that Denth doesn't seem to have used allomancy or feruchemy on Vashar. However, I believe that could easily be explained by the fact that a) he was sort of toying with Vashar at the end there and he simply could have been out of stored speed or out of bendalloy at those moments, and chosen to fight normally. (Note that Viv does NOT have the same problem of seeing Denth's movements as a blur when he fights Vashar. They're both fast, but not so fast they can't be seen.)

 

TONK FAH: 

• We don't know that much about Tonk Fah, but we do know the following things: 
• He is kind of a sociopath who can't help but kill things, including his pet animals. He seems constantly compelled to kill and destroy, unable to avoid it. Sort of like someone might act if they had, oh I don't know, been corrupted by Ruin via a hemallurgic spike?
• He seems like a simple overweight sidekick until he's in a fight, when he seems to transform into a muscular and dangerous fellow. Here's Vivenna's account of that happening:
  • Tonk Fah cracked his knuckles. Vivenna glanced at him, suddenly noticing that Tonk Fah seemed more...dangerous. The idle, overweight man who liked to nap had vanished. In his place was a thug with sleeves rolled up, showing off muscles that bulged impressively. ...
  • Then later: "Aw, did you have to let him go so fast?" Tonk Fah said, sitting down on the floor, looking morose. Whatever he'd done to look dangerous was gone, evaporating faster than water on metal in the sun.
• And he loves to sleep, even a surprising amount. Just moments after the scene above where his body changes, he starts sleeping mid-conversation: "She frowned, glancing at Denth. Tonk Fah, amazingly, was already snoring softly."
• Sounds a lot like the Steel Inquisitors, who are known for having to rest a lot for feruchemical storage purposes.
• Unlike Denth, Tonk Fah is NOT a Returned or one of the five scholars, so unlike Denth, his physical transformation and abilities cannot be explained in that way.

HOW IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED:

• While we can't prove this theory is true by any means, I do think it's at least plausible. So how could these two have become allomancers or feruchemists? Simple. Denth, or both of them, could have been to Scadrial. 
• We already know it's plausible for a Returned like Denth, and one of the scholars like Denth, to be a world-hopper--because we **STORMLIGHT SPOILER** see Vasher appear as Zahel in Words of Radiance. It's completely plausible, then, that Denth could also be a world hopper. 
• And we know it's possible for people to gain allomantic or feruchemical abilities. We see it a bunch of times in the Mistborn books, most commonly through the use of hemallurgic spikes.
• Moreover, Denth is an expert on investiture as one of the five scholars. Thus, it's entirely plausible for him to know, or learn, how feruchemy, allomancy or hemallurgy works and use it to his own benefit.
• In fact, based on what they did during the manywar, I would argue that Denth (and the other scholars like Arsteel) would likely WANT to do this, since they seemed highly motivated to create and use the most powerful forms of investiture possible (and also, as scholars, out of a simple desire to understand).
• And as I said before, if they DID have hemallurgic spikes that would explain certain personality traits of both characters. For Tonk Fah, who's not the brightest tool in the shed and was already probably a little crazy, it would explain how he become a complete sociopath who loves killing (kind of how Zane's mental instability made it easier for Ruin's influence to change him). It would explain why he kills innocent animals all the time, as opposed to the explanation being that he's simply a brutish sociopath. 
• And for Denth, it could partly explain how he went from being a good guy (back when he was buddies with Vashar as a scholar) to a bad guy now. Yes, his sister's death is obviously a big part of that, but Ruin's influence could add to it and explain why he says things about not being a good person any more.
• Lastly, since we do not have any POV chapters from these characters, we would not hear Ruin's voice in their heads or anything. 

SUMMARY

 

The abilities these characters display are completely consistent with what we've seen from allomantic or feruchemical powers. They are not displayed by any other character on Nalthis through the use of breaths, including the Returned. The characters had the means, motive and opportunity to acquire such powers. And hemallurgy would explain some of their personality traits. 

 

Thoughts? Reactions? Am I completely crazy for thinking this? 

 

Thanks!

 

[ChickenPlague]

Seems possible. But does anyone know whether Warbreaker takes place after or before Sazed's ascension?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Warbreaker was after Sazed's ascension as all the original Cosmere books were published in Cosmere wide chronological order. That said, we don't know exactly how long and the 5 scholars were around for something like 300 years before the events in Warbreaker. Plenty of time to worldhop and/or develop new powers with your existing investiture. 

 

There is a best we can Chronology on the Coppermind, and there was this thread about it a few years ago and a more recent one here, with a little more clarification here

 

Maybe Lightsong couldn't move fast because he didn't think he should be able to, Intent plays a large part in how Returned appear, why now how fast they are? 

 

If I were a Returned, depended upon 1 breath and/or some other investiture per week to survive, I'd be wary of going to a planet where all the natural investiture is in people itself  without a vast store of breaths...

Edited January 6, 2016 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Zathoth]

There is the mist, I dont know how Denth would be able to draw on the mists, but it there is investiture floating around that he could use, in theory.

 

Ok, crack theory time

 

 

Chaos

A lerasium Mistborn's kids would surely be Allomancers. If such a lerasium Mistborn traveled to, say, Nalthis, fell in love and had kids with a native Nalthisean, would those kids be Allomancers? Or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

In most cases, they would still be Allomancers. Mixed, potentially, with something else depending on the native innate investiture. That mixture could do some strange things, though.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27innate%20investiture%27

 

My theory is as follows: A Nalthesian allomancers breath contains their ability to burn metals. So Denth actually had two breaths, one from a nalthesian steelrunner.

 

We know there is a Terriswoman on Nalthis.

 

Yeah, Im grasping at straws here.

[Stormgate]

Isn't the Terriswoman most likely Demoux's girlfriend/wife?

[Moogle]

I'm moving this to Cosmere theories, as it directly deals with multiple series. Please mark any thread that contains spoilers from non-Warbreaker books in the Warbreaker forum!

 

Here's the example of our probable-Herald Taln also displaying super-speed, as it seems relevant:

 

The Herald’s hand snapped up in front of him.

Amaram started, freezing in place, as he saw something in the Herald’s fingers. A small dart, the tip dripping with some clear liquid.

Amaram glanced at the opening, which spilled sunlight into the room. A small figure there made a puffing sound, a blowgun held to lips beneath a half mask that covered the upper face.

The Herald’s other hand shot out, quick as an eyeblink, and snatched the dart from the air mere inches from Amaram’s face. The Ghostbloods. They weren’t trying to kill the Herald.

[Oversleep]

Properly trained humans are capable of snatching projectiles from the air (maybe not high-speed, but still), so I guess somebody with battle experience and so on of few thousand years can do that with a dart. It's more of higher human capability than Steelrunner speedstering.

[Blaze1616]

You've made some good points, but I don't think the Denth side of the theory holds much weight. Even if he could/did go to Scadrial, and found a means of surviving (giant store of Breath/somehow gaining access to mist), Warbreaker doesn't say Denth also spent time loafing around, indicating he isn't a feruchemist, and I don't recall any subtle hints of him ingesting liquids, meaning if he is an allomancer Brandon does not want us figuring it out as he left us zero clues other than this one instance of Denth moving wicked fast.

 

Personally, I don't think there's anything supernatural about Denth's speed. He is the greatest swordsman to walk to face of Nalthis during the time of the book, he'd naturally be really quick. Though I agree that it seems oddly too quick, it's not so far out of the realm of possibility that a metallic art is needed to explain it.

 

As for Tonk Fah, I'd say you've made some very solid points. I don't recall if Vivenna ever noted him having more than one Breath, but I do find the implications of your theory to be interesting. Say he is Scadrian, as I don't recall a way for anyone without Terris blood to be a feruchemist, and Ruin wouldn't have been able to mess with any hemalurgic practitioners on Nalthis even if he was still alive, then that means that large stores of Breath would not reveal magic users of other systems. This would mean that Breath doesn't grant investiture sense, and would beg the question of why Vasher could sense Syl (perhaps it is just life-sense after all).

Edited January 7, 2016 by Blaze1616

[Yata]

Tonk Fah  became a Drab to catch Vivenna. To became a true Drab and be invisible to the Life-Sense. You must be a Nalthian without any Breath. Humans from other Shardworld have more Investiture than a Nalthis's Drab. This alone may prove that Ton Fah was born on Nalthis.

 

About Denth, He was surely the best Swordman on Nalthis (after the Astrael's death) but he was also a Returned and his body (as Vasher's) was some degree of superhuman ability (there is a WoB or Warbreaker Annotation about) also while he suppressed the Divine Breath.

[Stormgate]

There have been ideas that Tonk Fah was a Hemalurgist. But I agree with Denth's explanation.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

I really like the theory. But I think Denths speed can be explained by the returned being able to morph their bodies. So, say, if he wanted to be faster, grow more fast twitch muscle tendons, which would allow you to react much, much faster.

As for Tonk-Fah, your evidence is pretty damnation solid. Maybe Denth took him to Scadrial after he went and discovered you can steal abilities with a simple spike through the right place in the body. I mean, like you said, Denth is an expert on Investiture. I see no reason why he couldnt have discovered world-hopping during the Manywar.

All in all, I really like this theory. Hopefully Brandon does expand upon it, since Tonk-Fah did survive and escaped (Vasher thinks) to Pahn-Kahl, with Jewels and Clod (Arsteel). Cannot wait for the sequal.

[Yata]

All in all, I really like this theory. Hopefully Brandon does expand upon it, since Tonk-Fah did survive and escaped (Vasher thinks) to Pahn-Kahl, with Jewels and Clod (Arsteel). Cannot wait for the sequal.

You have to wait very long before Nightblood

 

Anyway to me the the Theory isn't solid at all, for example:

- At the time of Warbreaker, Harmony was already born and there is nothing like Sociopatic Shard to push a Spiked-One

- The "trasformation" is just the fact that Vivenna understand how bad she judged the mercenary from his jokes (the same thing that happen to other Sanderson's character in other stories).

Elantris Spoiler:

As the Serene's uncle as a fearsome warrior, both of them shared a big (fat) body, but when the idiocity come away. We can see how it "isn't only fat".

- A simple Spiked-One hasn't need of the "Inquisitor's deep sleep", that is a thing of that kind of Hemalurgic Construct only . We saw many many Spiked-One (two of them was main characters) and they never show something like that.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Yata

[The Ninja Yodeler]

You have to wait very long before Nightblood

 

Anyway to me the the Theory isn't solid at all, for example:

- At the time of Warbreaker, Harmony was already born and there is nothing like Sociopatic Shard to push a Spiked-One

- The "trasformation" is just the fact that Vivenna understand how bad she judged the mercenary from his jokes (the same thing that happen to other Sanderson's character in other stories).

Oh dont get me wrong Yata ( by the way, your english has improved alot. Good job man). Dont confuse me LIKING the theory as me thinking its right. I just think it'd be awesome if Tonk-Fah was just a sociopath who got a spike.(I dont know if having a spike would make you a crazy killer or not. Since Ruin is paired with Preservation and Ati is dead, and he was the one corrupting those with spikes, I'd assume,currently, that thts not the case anymore) I doubt, since I've read above that Warbreaker runs concurrently with Mistborn era 1, that Ruin (Ati) could speak into a spiked persons mind on a different shardworld. So yeah, I dont think Ruin is currently effecting Tonk-Fah or Denth on Nalthis, since Endowment is there. And who knows if Ruins effects can last without him actively corrupting them (meaning they would have to be on Scadrial for a while for Ruin to corrupt them). I mean Vin wasnt corrupted by Ruin, and she had a spike (earing) in A LOT. So maybe Denth spent a good amount of time on Scadrial learning about Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Maybe he became obessed with Hemalurgy, giving Ruin the time and the means to corrupt him.

In conclusion, do I like this theory? Yes. Do I think its a possible plotline for Warbreaker (or other novels) sequal? Highly unlikely. Still cool as hell though.

Ninja out!

[Lord Ruler]

I love this theory but I have 2 problems with it, and then a few possibilities

 

Wouldn't the metal arts not work if there wasn't any of Preservations/Ruins power there? I think it might still, but I am not certain. I don't think its tied to the planet unlike Elantrians.

 

Why would Vasher only return with one hemalurgic spike, unless he feared harmony/ruin? He seems like a very ambitious character, and I doubt e would travel to another world to only return with one other power.

 

Now my possibilities-

 

Vasher, also a returned, could not (to my knowledge) move as quickly as Denth, although a quick read through of their fights might be nessasary to be certain. Does that mean that Denth has some other investiture? Any trick with compounding muscles and being able to change your body would have been discovered already by Vasher, so that eliminates that.

 

Could Denth (and Tonk Fa) Have come from Roshar? Then been returned and still have their powers? Its a crackpot theory but its possible. 

 

The problem with this is there is no evidence except that we know returned can world hop somehow, with the Vasher-Zahel connection. I guess we'll just have to wait till Nightblood!

[King's Twit]

Wouldn't the metal arts not work if there wasn't any of Preservations/Ruins power there? I think it might still, but I am not certain. I don't think its tied to the planet unlike Elantrians.

 

Hoid appears to drink metal flakes in a Shallan flashback, which many have taken as evidence that he has allomancy and that it can be used off of Scadrial. I think there are also a few WoB about it being possible.

 

 

Could Denth (and Tonk Fa) Have come from Roshar? Then been returned and still have their powers? Its a crackpot theory but its possible. 

 

There's a WoB that it is very difficult for someone not born on Nalthis to Return. It is also nearly impossible for someone without a Breath to Return, but anyone with money can just buy one of those, or I guess take one by forcing the bearer to give it to you.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Hoid appears to drink metal flakes in a Shallan flashback, which many have taken as evidence that he has allomancy and that it can be used off of Scadrial. I think there are also a few WoB about it being possible.

Yeah I wasnt sure if, say, Denth and Tonk-Fah were spiked, would Ruin be able to effect them on another Invested Shardworld? But thinking about Bleeder being driven to obey whatever intent/mandate from whatever god-metal she was spiked with, makes me think he could have effected Denth & Tonk-Fah for sure on Nalthis.If they got their spikes from Scadrial tht is. But maybe they are from another Shardworld, such as Roshar, like Supernile said. I mean Brandon did say that its highly unlikely tht someone from another Shardworld could return. But highly unlikely doesnt mean impossible.

So maybe Denth is the possibilty manifested. I doubt it since he was one of the 5 Scholars (it was 5, right?) and him & his SISTER were friends with Vasher from who knows when. Probably for a long, long time before the Manywar. And he makes no insinuations about Denth or his sister being from anywhere bit Nalthis. But man it would be awesome to have a novella about Denth and his sister world hopping somehow. Finding Nalthis. Learning about Breath. Obtaining breath. And then they both die doing something insanely heroic. And are BOTH Returned. Then the book ends when they meet Vasher as Returned.

I would not hate that book at all.

-Yodel

Edited January 8, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[AerionBFII]

I thought Returned were capable of enhanced speed?

Denth was a master Swordsman before he was Returned then he was enhanced by becoming one,

I'm not denying he had the ability to Worldhop and he may have done but i don't think he was spiked.

[ARARITA]

I'm reading Warbreaker again -

I am convinced that Denth is a worldhopper

and on that note

VaraTreledees sounds an awful lot like Trell - just sayin

oh and on page 115 he is tall and spindly - Terris or Kandra worldhopper anyone ?

Edited February 18, 2016 by ARARITA

[DrakeMarshall]

This is an interesting theory.

Your evidence is quite strong in fact.

Denth is dead, though... Maybe a living associate of his still has metallic powers? At the end of warbreaker, vasher references another of the five scholars.

Would certainly be interesting, though most of this is guesswork.

[Pechvarry]

I want to point out:

You don't need either character to be under "Ruin's influence." 

 

Being spiked can be cause enough.  Particularly if you look at attribute spikes (like those that make koloss and kandra), they seem to have a very high capacity for distorting personalities on their own.  This does the trick for Tonk Fah.

 

Maybe they have very weak feruchemic spikes, so Denth is probably pretty darn fast on his own, but can also tap just a wee bit to go into the superhuman, but storing is very hard.

 

Personally, though, I think Denth's secret is that he imagines himself as having supernatural speed, and his Divine Breath complies to that self-image.

[Baine]

• • Tonk Fah cracked his knuckles. Vivenna glanced at him, suddenly noticing that Tonk Fah seemed more...dangerous. The idle, overweight man who liked to nap had vanished. In his place was a thug with sleeves rolled up, showing off muscles that bulged impressively. ...
  • Then later: "Aw, did you have to let him go so fast?" Tonk Fah said, sitting down on the floor, looking morose. Whatever he'd done to look dangerous was gone, evaporating faster than water on metal in the sun.

  I don't think there's anything supernatural here. Just changes in posture and body language. If he had actually changed size/muscle it would have been much more noticeable.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Baine

[DrakeMarshall]

Well also... If tonk fah actually does turn out to be a returned, then most of the time he walks around looking like a normal human. If a bit of the perfect physique of a returned bled through, he would suddenly look more imposing.

Still, it would be interesting if they actually had a metallic power.

[Gremorys]

I realize this posting was quite a while ago, but figured I would note that Vasher now uses stormlight in place of breaths to keep himself alive. So as far being possible for returned like deneth to use breaths to fuel allomancy, personally I don't find that to be too far-fetched of an idea. Just my 2 cents at least.

[+Kolten]

Another thing to consider is that there is still a lot about breaths and awakening that we do not know. Vasher does some sort of weird mind wipe trick. Maybe denth and arsteel knew some ways to enhance physical attributes

[Argel]

On 7/17/2016 at 2:19 PM, Gremorys said:

So as far being possible for returned like deneth to use breaths to fuel allomancy, personally I don't find that to be too far-fetched of an idea

Considering that the metal/alloy determines the effect it might as well be a different magic system at that point.