Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[The Count]

We know that Amaram is going to make an appearance in WoR and given the significant history between him and Kaladin, there are sure to be sparks.

 

The main question I want to put to the assembled is this:

 

How will the Amaram / Kaladin story line play out, in your opinion?

 

Redemption for Amaram?

Kaladin giving up his hatred?

Amaram dead at Kaladin's feet?

Kaladin dead at Amaram's feet?

Dalinar dead in the cross fire?

Something else?

 

For me, the resolution I think I would find most satisfying is that Kaladin ends up having to choose between his Vengeance and his Honor in a very litteral sense. I think he will have the opportunity to either protect Amaram again (and save his life) or to let him die / kill him / get revenge.

 

I think / hope Kaladin will choose honor and so let go of hatred (jedi style).

 

For Amaram, I think it will turn out that he has been doing things with the shards that have helped the cause of the 'good guys' a lot and so bring into play the question of whether the ends justify the means.

 

Whether he comes to any kind of change of heart or not... I do not know.

 

I do not think we will see any kind of fight between Kaladin and Amaram, it will all be words and politics.

 

So what do you peeps think?

Edited January 14, 2014 by The Count

[Aether]

I would prefer not to think about this one too closely. Kaladin (along with Dalinar) is my favourite Sanderson character across and beyond the Cosmere, and Amaram looked like a good, but misguided, man. Whatever Brandon has in store for them, I am convinced it will be sufficiently epic and / or exiting.

[Moist_von_Lipwig]

I don't think we will see a fight between Kaladin and Amaram yet either, though I suspect we will learn more about Amaram's goals and what he's been working towards given what we learnt from the prologue. 

 

While I don't quite think Amaram is evil/bad. I think it will play out that he has a mentality that the ends justify the means, and perhaps has become too extreme in trying to fight his enemies(ghostbloods?). 

 

What I would like to see, though I don't think it will happen, is Kaladin challenging Amaram to a duel and them fighting in the arena like Adolin did against the other shardbearer. Hopefully in this scenario Kaladin would win, and somehow have Amaram at his mercy. At this point Kaladin would have the option of killing Amaram and the shards become his or sparing him. Although Darth Kaladin does sound kind of cool, I think Syl will push him to choose the honourable option (aka path of the Jedi). At this point he will demand Amaram relinquish his shards in front of the Alethi nobility and give one shard to Rock for his people and another to someone else.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Moogle]

I haven't got the slightest clue. It's wonderful! So many possibilities, so much excitement.

 

I'm toying with the idea of Kaladin and Amaram having to be buddy-buddy while working with Dalinar. Kaladin slowly gets to know him, and one day finds he can't hate him quite as much after learning about his motives. Not quite as exciting a confrontation as I might hope for, but I think it'd be nice. Not everything has to be solved through blood.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

Either of two scenarios make me happy:

- Kaladin lets it go after going on a rage that is quelled by Syl, resulting in him saying another Ideal.
- Amaram makes another stupid move, pressured or not by whatever group, and tries to harm Dalinar. Kaladin defends Dalinar, as he is meant to, and gets to enjoy it while also proving himself to Dalinar further and showing of his Windrunner powers. 

Bonus third option: 

- Brandon Sanderson is way more creative than I am, and finds a solution too clever for me to guess. 

One of these solutions is more likely than the others...

[Quiver]

First of all, I amn so glad people seem to consider the idea of Amaram as more than just the villain. He comes across that way in the early chapters before we meet him, but when we do see him, he comes across as more misguided than villainous.

I don't have a scenario for who it will play out, but I have seen some interesting discussion about Amaram taking the Shardblade and Plate. It centred on the idea that Kaladin has the oath about Journey before Destination, whereas Amatam takes the weapons because he believes he can do more good. I think Amaram is going to be a warning of what happens when you put Destination first; he may be a good man, with good intentions and fighting the good fight, but he's doing it the wrong way.

[Moogle]

I don't have a scenario for who it will play out, but I have seen some interesting discussion about Amaram taking the Shardblade and Plate. It centred on the idea that Kaladin has the oath about Journey before Destination, whereas Amatam takes the weapons because he believes he can do more good. I think Amaram is going to be a warning of what happens when you put Destination first; he may be a good man, with good intentions and fighting the good fight, but he's doing it the wrong way.

 

Quite possibly. I'm just curious as to what he's been doing for the past five years. He was involved with Gavilar (that was a nice reveal), so I'm willing to give him more leeway than ever before with Kaladin's Shards. The guy was doing something, and I can't wait to see what it was.

[Argent]

It really depends on what role Amaram has in the bigger story - is his betrayal of Kaladin Stormblessed and his squad a fluke, or is it how he normally operates? The former could lead to an alliance (or at least a working relationship) between him and Kaladin; the latter could lead to a spear in the guts.

[meddler]

Either of two scenarios make me happy:

- Kaladin lets it go after going on a rage that is quelled by Syl, resulting in him saying another Ideal.

- Amaram makes another stupid move, pressured or not by whatever group, and tries to harm Dalinar. Kaladin defends Dalinar, as he is meant to, and gets to enjoy it while also proving himself to Dalinar further and showing of his Windrunner powers. 

Bonus third option: 

- Brandon Sanderson is way more creative than I am, and finds a solution too clever for me to guess. 

One of these solutions is more likely than the others...

 

Another scenario : Kaladin walks in on Dalinar and Amaram talking, Dalinar notes something is wrong and jumps in between when Kaladin goes after Amaram. Szeth walks in and the three of them are forced to work in concert to fend of Szeth at which point Kaladin displays his Windrunner abilities to the astonishment of Amaram and Szeth. Kaladin spares Amaram after realising he or Dalinar would be dead without Amaram's assistance in that instance.

Edited January 14, 2014 by meddler

[Moist_von_Lipwig]

Kaladins and Amarams history being what it is, it seems he would be one of the later obstacles to Kaladin saying the ideals. if we do see a confrontation I suspect it wont be for a while, towards the end of WoR at the earliest, after Kaladin has unlocked a few more ideals.

 

On a Side note:

 

How long was it between Kaladin becoming a slave and him arriving at the Shattered Plains? A year?. In tWoK it's mentioned that

 

"the shardbearer Amaram is on his way to the Shattered Plains"

 

Why does it take Amaram so long to get there? Was he just dealing with the border skirmishes? Or busy with other things like his mission from Gavilar. It seems odd that a Shardbearer wouldn't immediately go to the Shattered plains to fight the Parshendi.

[Stoneward]

I think Amaram is going to be a warning of what happens when you put Destination first; he may be a good man, with good intentions and fighting the good fight, but he's doing it the wrong way.

 

I had exactly the same feeling about Taravangian. Both Amaram and Taravangian justify the killing of innocents now "for the greater good", later. I know there are different ways of looking at this, but I tend to agree with Teft:

 

"Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished."

 

I don't think Amaram will have a full redemption. I don't know what his goals are, but he did not need to kill innocents for shards. I'm honestly not sure there can be a full redemption after what he did. That being said, it would surprise me very much if Amaram died in WoR. I fully expect that Kaladin will need to work with him; it would really push Kaladin's character development.

 

So... Predictions:

• Kaladin will have opportunity to kill Amaram in WoR, but will choose not to.
• When Amaram dies, (I'm betting book 4 or 5) it will not be by Kaladin's hand.
• Amaram will not die as a hero. We will probably sympathize with him in "I understand why he did that" kind of way, but not in a "he did the right thing" kind of way.

[Scriptorian]

I have this amusing scenario in my mind where Syl recognizes Amaram and spends the rest of the book making him trip all the time.

[Colby Jack]

If we predict the future based entirely on Amaram's character alone, then what will traditionally happen will be a moment of "what have I done", followed by a road to redemption.

However, Amaram is closely associated with people like Sadeas and Restares. He may try to do right thing initially, but I could easily see him fall all the way, become misguided and jealous and all filled with anger at the protagonists and take over as the antagonist after the main baddies are taken care of. He could be like Gollum, a tragic character who will serve as a cautionary tale about the steep, slippery road to hell and all that stuff about good intentions. He may even have one moment of clarity and somewhat redeem himself at the end.

I'll be honest though. The latter is my preferred scenario. I don't want to like Amaram, I want to see him die.

[Cromptj]

It probably took so long for Amaram to reach the Shattered Plains because he had a shattered leg and then had to leard how to use shardblade/plate.

[ChocolateRob]

I pretty much agree with Postmaster Lipwig. I've always pictured Kaladin and Amaram having a formal dual.

 

 Specifically I see it happening as the arena being surrounded by a dozen or so forge hammers (heavy but not war hammer heavy), by staying on the move and throwing them at Amaram's feet he is able to damage his boots enough that he cannot stand with the weight of the Plate. Kaladin can now get in close enough to smash more important pieces leaving Amaram exposed and force him to confess to what he did for everyone to hear.

 Kaladin wins the Shards but immediately passes the Plate to the Unkalaki via Rock and the Blade to Moash, proving that he would not take them for himself. Amaram is stripped of his rank/authority and ends up as a humiliated tenner. Kaladin has a worthy revenge without the need to kill him.

 

(I just figured the wisest course is to attack the feet, they are very important to the plate but far less obvious than areas protecting the vitals.)

[Unknowingly]

I wonder if Amaram will recognize Kaladin immediately. Kaladin might seem familiar at first but why would that person who you sold into slavery a year ago be the Captain of the Kings/Dalinars Guard? I think he will right it off as an uncanny likeness and then Kaladin will do something signifigant. This significant thing could be anything from killing him on the spot, to just outright ignoring him or anything in between these two extremes.

[Colby Jack]

Amaram will recognize Kaladin. If nothing else, that slave brand on his head will stick out like a sore thumb.

[Morsk]

I can see Kaladin not personally killing him, if it's just not something Windrunners do as leaders and protectors. If Skybreakers are anything like Darkness, they're the ones that do justice.

I'm not interested in a redemption story for a murderer though. I suppose they could say that all lighteyes are terrible so there's no point trying to apply justice to them. They have to be overthrown, not punished individually. And Dalinar's already trying to do that, by making them act like a nation, not a bunch of backstabbing nobles. But I'm reaching so much to come up with excuses to spare him. Murder is like, really bad. It's murder.

[Cayden]

Myself, I see Adolin kicking Amaram's backside up and down the dueling field, and then Adolin and Kaladin becoming BFF.

 

I really dont think Kaladin will fight him unless Amaram starts it. 1) that would be a sure way to lose the protection his men has. 2) it would go against what he believes in.

 

I do think it will come out though, I think Dalinar will investigate the bad blood and then find out about it all, and finally Jasnah or Shallan will heal Kaladins slave brand

[Meg]

I'm trying to put the given tidbits in chronology and let you participate with some of my (hopefully not again broken) thoughts:

~ 1167: Gavilar, Dalinar and Sadeas had been friends until Gavilar was assassinated. Just before Szeth murdered Gavilar, Amaram and Gavilar were talking in private.(1)

~ 1172/1173: Amaram, Brightlord in Sadeas's princedom, was attacked by an unknown Veden Shardbearer, who was killed by Kaladin. Amaram took the Shards for himself and branded Kaladin as a slave.

~ 1173 (or later? 1174?): Amaram comes to the Shattered Plains. Probably at a time when Adolin is yet fighting duels.(2)

(1) When first reading the new Prologue I wondered about Gavilar and Amaram talkin in private. But I think it's not that a suprise, hence we know that Dalinar and Sadeas were friends prior to Gavilar's death.

I'd love to know what this conversation was about. Some profane warfare things? The Ghostbloods? Voidbringers and Desolations? Surely not about a marriage between Jasnah and Amaram, I'm sure of this.

(2) Though I said here that I don't see a political problem if Adolin would fight with Amaram, after some reconsidering I think it may not be that simple as I thought. Not after remembering this tidbit:

 

"Each time you allow this," Amaram said, "it drives a wedge between

him and the throne." Amaram took Dalinar by the arm, stopping him from continuing forward.

"We have bigger problems than you and Sadeas, my friend. Yes, he betrayed you. Yes, he likely will again. But we can't afford to let the two of you go to war. The Voidbringers are coming."

can be found here

This seems as if Amaram was still siding with Dalinar, even if Sadeas is his highprince, not Dalinar. Also this quote indicates that Amaram knows things ...

I wonder if Dalinar could take Amaram under his protection (kind of giving him asylum).

Either way -- Amaram being friend (and so loyal?) with Dalinar or seeking protection from Dalinar -- I see that a duel might not be very good.

[king of nowhere]

I don't think kaladin will kill amaram in the middle of the war camp. he would first need to convince dalinar; he would not inimicate him by killing one of his officiers for no apparent reason.

And he's not going to talk to dalinar anytime soon. he's still too diffident towards lighteyes.

So whatever will happen, it will vastly depends on how the relationships between kaladin and dalinar, and between dalinar and amaram, will develop.

Either that, or kaladin will get a chance at causing the death of amaram in battle; maybe in a mirror scene of the battle of the tower in book one, but this time with amaram leading the army iin place of kaladin. In which case, I'm fully confident that kaladin will save the day for the sake of the common soldiers anyway.

[Arondell]

I suspect that Amaram would like to be the kind of person who is always true and honorable but he feels that honor gets in the way of the best he can do.  I'm actually having a hard time describing this.

 

It is like he knows what the moral thing to do is and wants to do it but he feels that doing the moral thing would result in a bad outcome so he must sacrifice his own wants and do the immoral thing to properly serve his people.  If that makes any sense.    At least he has the good grace to look a little guilty about what he is doing.

 

Of course part of this is because of his own distrust of other peoples motives and honesty.  He didn't believe Kaladin wouldn't eventually demand the shards back.  He couldn't even comprehend it really.

 

When it comes to issues of redemption or revenge for Amaram I find I don't really have a preference.  I do feel that if Mr. Sanderson goes the route of redemption for the character in order for justice to be had Amaram has to come clean publicly with what he has done.  I feel anything less would be kind of weak.  Unless it is an act of redemption that involves some kind of noble self-sacrificing death or similar fate.

[18th Shard]

So when someone said Darth Kaladin, I had this weird image of Kaladin going crazy after fighting Amaram and Hoid going, "Oh, there's another one that we lost to the dark side. I had hoped he would turn out better than that Anakin kid."

Edited January 20, 2014 by 18th Shard

[Moogle]

When it comes to issues of redemption or revenge for Amaram I find I don't really have a preference.  I do feel that if Mr. Sanderson goes the route of redemption for the character in order for justice to be had Amaram has to come clean publicly with what he has done.  I feel anything less would be kind of weak.  Unless it is an act of redemption that involves some kind of noble self-sacrificing death or similar fate.

 

I'm slowly coming to think that it might be best if there was neither redemption or revenge for Amaram. He's done what he feels was for the best (maybe?), he feels guilty (maybe?), and that's all there really is to it. Amaram's not perfect, but he's not appreciably worse than many of the other people in the world, and at least he's working to stop the Desolation. Brandon can write great gray characters, and I hope he does plenty more for the Stormlight Archive. I don't want him to go as far as A Song of Ice and Fire, but if he just keeps doing what he did for TWoK, I'm going to be one very pleased reader. 

 

Amaram doesn't need to die in some glorious blaze of self-sacrifice, he can just keep on slowly working on doing his best to help people, all the while feeling a gnawing guilt at what he's doing.

[Natans]

I understand tha argument about Amaram doing what was necessary, and that he aren't evil, and he only did something evil on need, but this is enough to justify what he did ?

 

I mean there is a highway with 6 fast track to hell paved only with good intetions, it's is easy to justify everthing if you put a "great need" or the "colective good" as ultimate goal, but history is full of "good intentions" with very hard consequences.

 

To me is simple he must aswer for what he did, that is that, after that he could prove all his good intention doing what is right in the right way, not liying, killing and make of the life of others miserable. 

 

=)