killersquirrel59 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Tell me if this makes sense, but the way I figure it, the Lord Ruler shouldn't worry about anyone else managing his immortality trick through Atium alone. One would need to be able to compound 2 metals, not just one to manage. It has been established that you cannot tap a metal mind while sleeping. Once over his natural age, the Lord Ruler needed to be constantly tapping Youth from his Atium minds. Therefore, he needed to remain awake constantly to continue tapping his metal mind. The only way to manage this is to also be constantly compounding Bronze for wakefulness, which would face the same problem of diminishing returns as any Feruchemy use, needing ever more and more bronze. Not as hard to get, but notable that Atium alone will not be a viable answer to immortality. Just a random thought. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the winter system Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I don't think it's that you can't tap a metalmind while sleeping, it's you can't fill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Even if you can't normally tap metalminds while sleeping, I wouldn't be surprised if you anyone could manage the trick if they worked at it long enough. Instinctive burning is a thing, after all, so instinctive tapping isn't that wild a thought. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Slowswift Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I keep reading the title as "Sheep". Which makes sense, actually, concerning the Lord Ruler's background. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippleGylf Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 But wouldn't you have to sleep, or at least be drowsy, to store wakefulness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindel Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The only way to manage this is to also be constantly compounding Bronze for wakefulness, which would face the same problem of diminishing returns as any Feruchemy use, needing ever more and more bronze. Not as hard to get, but notable that Atium alone will not be a viable answer to immortality. Just a random thought. The problem with Atium compounding is that you constantly need more Youth to counteract your age. So the need for more metal is something unique to compounding Atium, as the greater the distance between your real age and your desired age, the more Atium is needed. This gap grows as you age. When you're eighty, the gap is relatively small, but when you're 1000 years old, it's a lot bigger, hence the need for more Atium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 But wouldn't you have to sleep, or at least be drowsy, to store wakefulness? Only at the start at which point you don't need to be tapping Atium all the time, after that you could just keep compounding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I don't think it's that you can't tap a metalmind while sleeping, it's you can't fill it. This was going to be my response...I know that Sazed mentions that you can't fill any other metalminds while sleeping aside from bronze...but I don't think that it says that you can't tap them. I mean...I can see the logic in not being able to make a conscious decision to do something while asleep...but like Kurk points out, mistborn and thugs can instinctively use their powers to keep them alive while sleeping...so why not a feruchemist. Also...even if you can't tap feruchimal powers while asleep...it's been made abundantly clear that you can burn while you're sleeping...so I guess if you had to, you could always just slowly burn an atium mind while sleeping...(would you have trippy dreams where you see the future of what you dream characters were going to do?...whoa...)...after all...you wouldn't need to maintain a constant age while asleep, just keep yourself from dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 This was going to be my response...I know that Sazed mentions that you can't fill any other metalminds while sleeping aside from bronze...but I don't think that it says that you can't tap them. I mean...I can see the logic in not being able to make a conscious decision to do something while asleep...but like Kurk points out, mistborn and thugs can instinctively use their powers to keep them alive while sleeping...so why not a feruchemist. Also...even if you can't tap feruchimal powers while asleep...it's been made abundantly clear that you can burn while you're sleeping...so I guess if you had to, you could always just slowly burn an atium mind while sleeping...(would you have trippy dreams where you see the future of what you dream characters were going to do?...whoa...)...after all...you wouldn't need to maintain a constant age while asleep, just keep yourself from dying. I imagine it also has to do with your body's survival instinct, burning metals can help you stay alive, Elend managed to burn pewter only seconds after becoming a Mistborn to help him live through being stabbed. Storing in a metalmind only weakens your body so it makes sense that you can't do that unconsciously, tapping however could be just as useful as burning a metal so it makes sense that it could definitely be possible. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 While it's a grain of sand in the desert...upvote to Voidus for expressing my idea much more clearly and articulately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I imagine it also has to do with your body's survival instinct, burning metals can help you stay alive, Elend managed to burn pewter only seconds after becoming a Mistborn to help him live through being stabbed. Storing in a metalmind only weakens your body so it makes sense that you can't do that unconsciously, tapping however could be just as useful as burning a metal so it makes sense that it could definitely be possible. While true, I doubt TLR bothered with this. Why bother with it when you can compound wakefulness and never sleep again. I think you're right and that it could be done, I just doubt TLR bothered with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 While true, I doubt TLR bothered with this. Why bother with it when you can compound wakefulness and never sleep again. I think you're right and that it could be done, I just doubt TLR bothered with it. On that count I agree, other than the fact that on the subject of his immortality he's too paranoid to risk it I think he'd make use of the time that he would otherwise be sleeping plus it's a nice extra trick to add to his bag of evidence that he's god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmium Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 This also leads me to think that by the time of The Final Empire, it's indicated that The Lord Ruler is filling his metalminds for several days at a time. How much Atium is he burning to store for three days? How much Atium is he burning to balance being almost 1,100 years old?How long can Ironeyes hold out on his small stash? He's already 340+ years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 This also leads me to think that by the time of The Final Empire, it's indicated that The Lord Ruler is filling his metalminds for several days at a time. How much Atium is he burning to store for three days? How much Atium is he burning to balance being almost 1,100 years old? How long can Ironeyes hold out on his small stash? He's already 340+ years old. That is a good question. How is Ironeyes still alive at this point? I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that compounding produces a Feruchemical charge tenfold of what was stored. As such the amount of youth stored is irrelevant, since he could store 1 "charge", get 10, store 9, then use the 1 remainder to fill another bead to compound, and repeat as needed. However, the amount of Atium would become a problem at some point, since no more is being produced, and we've assumed that all the Atium Marsh had was what was taken from the fleeing 2nd generation Kandra at the end of HoA, which was not described as being very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 That is a good question. How is Ironeyes still alive at this point? I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that compounding produces a Feruchemical charge tenfold of what was stored. As such the amount of youth stored is irrelevant, since he could store 1 "charge", get 10, store 9, then use the 1 remainder to fill another bead to compound, and repeat as needed. However, the amount of Atium would become a problem at some point, since no more is being produced, and we've assumed that all the Atium Marsh had was what was taken from the fleeing 2nd generation Kandra at the end of HoA, which was not described as being very much. Unless Sazed is either directly fueling it. Marsh is alive because of ruin and seems to be preserving things so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 However, the amount of Atium would become a problem at some point, since no more is being produced, and we've assumed that all the Atium Marsh had was what was taken from the fleeing 2nd generation Kandra at the end of HoA, which was not described as being very much. Marsh actually had a sizable bag of atium he took from a kandra trying to sell it. WoB backing it up: As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.(source) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Unless Sazed is either directly fueling it. Marsh is alive because of ruin and seems to be preserving things so..... That would make Marsh directly dependant on Sazed's goodwill to stay alive, and it's implied that he gave Marasi the journal at the end of AoL AGAINST Sazed's wishes. I'm not saying it disproves the idea, but it could mean that Marsh's continued existence was put at risk by that book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmium Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Marsh actually had a sizable bag of atium he took from a kandra trying to sell it. WoB backing it up: A sizeable bag, sure. Our questions surround how much of that Atium did he use to make an "Atium-mind(s)" and then how much did he take to fuel his life beyond his normal lifespan? Maybe he still has plenty, but that doesn't change that it's a scarce resource and Marsh is now 250ish years beyond his natural lifespan. There are still some valid concerns there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Well, he doesn't need to use any of that bag to make atium minds. He can use his Inquisitor Atium Spike as a metal mind for storage and use the Atium in the bag for compounding. If a single bead can revert him back to childhood, then he certainly has enough...for now. But he will eventually run out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 A sizeable bag, sure. Our questions surround how much of that Atium did he use to make an "Atium-mind(s)" and then how much did he take to fuel his life beyond his normal lifespan? Maybe he still has plenty, but that doesn't change that it's a scarce resource and Marsh is now 250ish years beyond his natural lifespan. There are still some valid concerns there. You're making an assumption about his aging. Not sure if it's from Annotations or a WoB, but Inquisitor lifespans vary depending on their Spikes. Some burn up quickly, some have extended lifespans, and none had as many Spikes as Marsh. He could potentially have a 500yr lifespan and still be in the process of storing Youth, not Tapping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 You're making an assumption about his aging. Not sure if it's from Annotations or a WoB, but Inquisitor lifespans vary depending on their Spikes. Some burn up quickly, some have extended lifespans, and none had as many Spikes as Marsh. He could potentially have a 500yr lifespan and still be in the process of storing Youth, not Tapping It says Inquisitor lifespans vary, but there has never been even the slightest hint I've ever seen that any naturally live longer than a normal human lifespan. Their lifespans vary because human lifespans vary. I believe you are the one making the leap here. I find it questionable whether Inquisitors really even count as non-human Hemalurgic constructs. They do not display any additional traits beyond what they are given with their spikes, which is the case for both Koloss and Kandra. The only even remotely weird thing is the way they see, and I believe we have it confirmed in a WoB that any allomancer could theoretically learn to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) It says Inquisitor lifespans vary, but there has never been even the slightest hint I've ever seen that any naturally live longer than a normal human lifespan. Their lifespans vary because human lifespans vary. I believe you are the one making the leap here. Chaos How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor? Brandon Sanderson It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atiums he's going to be around for a while. (source) Possible reason for this is their link to Preservation: Kaimipono (16 October 2008) Why exactly do some spike removals kill (dual eye, or central spike) but most don't? Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008) For the same reason that a bullet through one part of the body will kill you, but getting shot somewhere else won't. The physical form of a person who has undergone a Hemalurgic transformation is no longer what we think of it. The direct connection to Preservation starts keeping them alive. (Imagine stapling someone's soul to another person's soul, their life essence, then stapling that to the power of creation itself, giving you a conduit directly to power, letting you leech it and steal it.) That power keeps you alive, despite the wounds. Some of the time, the other staples are enough to keep you alive, even if one is pulled out. Others are too important. (source) See also some discussion on the matter here. (Note: very old thread, I don't necessarily believe the same things now that I said then.) Edited November 5, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I find it questionable whether Inquisitors really even count as non-human Hemalurgic constructs. They do not display any additional traits beyond what they are given with their spikes, which is the case for both Koloss and Kandra. The only even remotely weird thing is the way they see, and I believe we have it confirmed in a WoB that any allomancer could theoretically learn to do that. They actually grow taller than they used to be, and their voices go all gravelly. Not to mention the bloodlust. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 He also compounded gold a lot. In TFE, it's said that TLR was once in a burning in, he stepped out a bit more than a skeleton, and within seconds was back to normal. So somebody would still have to compound two metals for immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Those stories are highly exaggerated, though the events are generally true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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