Grond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 If someone is using a magic power on a planet other than the location of the Shard, is the power affected by distance? Also, is the difference between a Shard and a Sliver qualitative or quantitative? In other words, is the only difference between Rashek as a Sliver and Sazed as a Shard the amount of time and/or power that he held, or is it something more fundamental?
Meg Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 If someone is using a magic power on a planet other than the location of the Shard, is the power affected by distance? As far as we know only Sel's magic is regional.(ref) Also, is the difference between a Shard and a Sliver qualitative or quantitative? In other words, is the only difference between Rashek as a Sliver and Sazed as a Shard the amount of time and/or power that he held, or is it something more fundamental? A Sliver is a person who held the power (or at least a large amount of the power) of a Shard of Adonalsium and let it go (or used it, as the Lord Ruler did). The person holding a Shard of Adonalsium (here we use to call that a "Shardholder" while BS himself refers to both -- the power and the person -- as Shard of Adonalsium) takes up the power of a Shard of Adonalsium and keeps it (that's what Sazed did with Preservation and Ruin's powers). hth :=)
Moogle Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I suppose this doesn't prove that the amount is all the same, but I still don't see where all the extra Investiture is going. Everyone has some, even skaa with no noble parentage, even Terris whose bloodlines have remained pure of lerasium's influence. I suppose it's possible, even with all my statements being true, that some people have got buckets and buckets of Innate Investiture, and some people have got barely any, and intermarriage between these people is what's diluted the power. I don't buy it, but it's possible. I tried to find a WoB on this, but couldn't. I swear Brandon has said that people's Breaths vary a bit in strength, or that they're different or something. I think it would make sense for some people to have more or less innate Investiture than others, just like some people are taller or shorter. I don't think the power level of Lerasium Mistborn means they have 'buckets and buckets' of Investiture, given that Allomancy doesn't halve itself in strength every generation. It seems almost logarithmic in how Allomantic strength falls off over the generations, not exponential. If innate Investiture scaled with power linearly, we would expect exponential dropoffs in power amongst generations with only one Allomantic parent.
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Breaths varying in strength is in the book itself, so there's no need to WoB on it. Siri is noted as having a strong Breath, for instance. 1
Moogle Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Breaths varying in strength is in the book itself, so there's no need to WoB on it. Siri is noted as having a strong Breath, for instance. Derp! I'm an idiot. Thanks, Kurk.
Aether he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Breaths varying in strength is in the book itself, so there's no need to WoB on it. Siri is noted as having a strong Breath, for instance. This, that might not be a reference to her innate investiture, but to her "spirit" in general. Much in the same way we would refer to someone cheery as one of "high spirit" or something. It is quite possible that it strictly speaking only describes her as having a strong or vivid personality, which is only linguistically associated with her breath.
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) @Moogle No problem. @Aether No. The passage in question is an examination of Siri that determines, among other things, her virginity. EDIT: “She is quite healthy,” the healer said to Bluefingers. “And most likely still a maiden. She also has a very strong Breath.” Siri froze. How could he tell . . . And then she saw it. She had to look very closely, but the yellow floor around the surgeon looked a tad too bright. She felt herself pale, though the nervousness had already made her hair as white as it went. The doctor is an Awakener, she thought. There is an Awakener here, in this room. And he touched me. Edited January 8, 2014 by Kurkistan
Aether he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 No. The passage in question is an examination of Siri that determines, among other things, her virginity. I was going to argue that it could still relate to her health, but upon rereading it, that would be a tad redundant. I guess there is some logic to it. Lightsong mentions that they usually let the Returned have young breaths because older people's breaths aren't as... I can't remember the word he used, but I suppose you could say strong, or nutritious.
Oudeis he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 I tried to find a WoB on this, but couldn't. I swear Brandon has said that people's Breaths vary a bit in strength, or that they're different or something. I think it would make sense for some people to have more or less innate Investiture than others, just like some people are taller or shorter. I don't think the power level of Lerasium Mistborn means they have 'buckets and buckets' of Investiture, given that Allomancy doesn't halve itself in strength every generation. It seems almost logarithmic in how Allomantic strength falls off over the generations, not exponential. If innate Investiture scaled with power linearly, we would expect exponential dropoffs in power amongst generations with only one Allomantic parent. Even though Breaths vary in strength, we don't know that Breaths and Innate Investiture are the same thing, unless someone has a WoB I haven't seen. Why, then is Elend such a stronger Mistborn than Vin, if his innate investiture should be no greater? I think you'd underestimating how much more powerful Elend is than Vin, or other allomancers. Breeze is an enormously powerful Soother, and he can Soothe dozens. Elend can Soothe hundreds. This isn't some general slight variance, this is a huge shift. And again, if you were right, there'd be some weak Mistborns, but there'd also still be others like the original ones. Over the past thousand years, someone would have been born with naturally high Innate Investiture, and also happened to have been a Mistborn. I can't prove your theory wrong, and I've prolly harped on this too much, so I'm going to let it be. You might well be right, I just personally see a lot of holes in your logic. If this turns out to be the case, I welcome you to one enthusiastic, "I told you so." =D
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 The quote that Meg pulled strongly suggests that Breaths are innate Investiture. We also have this: Source: Shardlet: If a Scadrian allomancer had a baby with a Nalthian (and the baby was born on Nalthis), could the baby have an original Breath and also be a Natural allomancer? Brandon: It could happen, the baby would have a bit of Preservation and a bit of Endowment. 1
Moogle Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Even though Breaths vary in strength, we don't know that Breaths and Innate Investiture are the same thing, unless someone has a WoB I haven't seen. Why, then is Elend such a stronger Mistborn than Vin, if his innate investiture should be no greater? Well, that's just it - my theory predicts that burning lerasium should increase your innate Investiture. That would just be what burning lerasium does. Past a certain threshold, I would guess that having buckets of innate Investiture from burning lerasium should naturally alter your spiritweb. I admit to having issues figuring out the various WoBs on the matter, though, because it is implied burning lerasium is just a way to edit your spiritweb, but if that were so, why would burning it multiple times keep increasing your strength? If it just added to your innate Investiture, we would have an answer, I think. It may also explain a small amount of Elend's character development in the third book. More innate Preservation would temper him, and make him more of a 'ruler', sort of like how the Well turned Rashek into a dictator. Kinda. I think you'd underestimating how much more powerful Elend is than Vin, or other allomancers. Breeze is an enormously powerful Soother, and he can Soothe dozens. Elend can Soothe hundreds. This isn't some general slight variance, this is a huge shift. And again, if you were right, there'd be some weak Mistborns, but there'd also still be others like the original ones. Over the past thousand years, someone would have been born with naturally high Innate Investiture, and also happened to have been a Mistborn. That's a pretty big shift, I admit, but it's not unreasonable to argue that burning lerasium could increase your innate Investiture to quite high levels, I think, given that lerasium is pure Preservation. Investiture can be seen as a constant source of power, in a way, I think. When you start an Investiture by burning a metal, you get however many units of energy every second from the power of creation. If we take this assumption, and assume that your strength in Allomancy is determined by how far you are from a 'baseline' human average, we should expect lerasium Mistborn to have something like 10 units of Preservation. If each Allomancer has a kid with a regular human, (who has 1 unit of Preservation for the sake of argument, numbers don't matter), and you get half your Preservation from each parent, then we'd expect the following amount of Preservation amongst generations: 10 5.5 (10 + 1 over 2) 3.25 2.125 1.5625 1.28125 And so on, which means there should be a huge power decrease from the first lerasium Mistborn and their children, and then less of a decrease after. Such a huge power decrease should have been noted! Each new generation takes maybe 20 years on Scadrial, so that's fifty generations. A fiftieth generation Allomancer (say, Vin) will have (drumroll) 1.000000000000016 units of Preservation, in this example. This implies that power shouldn't scale linearly with innate Investiture, and furthermore that Alloy of Law-era Mistborn shouldn't be appreciably less powerful than a Final Empire Mistborn if it does. Of course, numbers are complicated, because Allomancers can have kids with each other, and nobles might have more innate Investiture than skaa. Or, perhaps, that Investiture does scale linearly, there's just a constant amount of power threshold that you can't go below, so you'll always be able to Soothe at least 10 people (or something) if you can Soothe at all, and any extra innate Investiture you have just acts like a multiplier, so an original lerasium Mistborn should have 10x as much power, and maybe someone like Vin, who has a pure bloodline with tons of Allomancers have kids with each other to slow the decline, would have 50% more innate Preservation and thus be 50% more powerful than a regular, weak Misting. That was a huge runon sentence but I'm not fixing it, damnit! Anyways, this post got unreasonably mathy. Sorry! I understand 100% that you don't want to argue against the theory, so don't respond to the post unless you really want. I'm just throwing out ideas here. Questions for Brandon to help figure out the theory: Were the children of original Mistborn noticeably weaker than the original Mistborn? Like, to the point where they could affect half as many people when Soothing? Are the Mistings in Alloy of Law noticeably weaker than an equivalent Misting in Final Empire? Has the rate of power loss slowed? Will the power loss of Allomancers over generations ever result in such incredibly weak Mistings that they will be like Alendi, with incredibly weak abilities? How many years will it take? Is a child of two Allomancers the same strength as their parents (assuming their parents are equal strength)? Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle
Oudeis he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 I admit to having issues figuring out the various WoBs on the matter, though, because it is implied burning lerasium is just a way to edit your spiritweb, but if that were so, why would burning it multiple times keep increasing your strength? If it just added to your innate Investiture, we would have an answer, I think. As for the "why would burning it multiple times keep increasing you strength," I don't have the quote on me, but I suspect you're referring to a now rather famous WoB. The specific line that people tend to read as you just did is something like, "If most Mistborn were to burn lerasium, it would make them stronger." It's easy at first glance to think that this means, oh, so lerasium just powers you up, no matter what. But there's another explanation, one that matches more closely to what he says, and direct observation. If Kelsier, for example, had found the lerasium and burned it, he'd suddenly be as powerful as Elend, thereby becoming a stronger Mistborn. If Elend burned it, however, he wouldn't grow in power, because he's already at the level that lerasium takes you to. I know I said I wouldn't reply, and I am just going to let the rest lie. Like I said, your idea is plausible, I just personally find it unlikely. I just saw what looks like a common misconception, and I wanted to clarify.
Moogle Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks for the clarification. The issue for me, here, is the MAG. It claims that burning lerasium multiple times keeps increasing your power.
Grond Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 A Sliver is a person who held the power (or at least a large amount of the power) of a Shard of Adonalsium and let it go (or used it, as the Lord Ruler did). The person holding a Shard of Adonalsium (here we use to call that a "Shardholder" while BS himself refers to both -- the power and the person -- as Shard of Adonalsium) takes up the power of a Shard of Adonalsium and keeps it (that's what Sazed did with Preservation and Ruin's powers). hth :=) I am sorry, I misstyped. I did not mean Sliver I meant Splinter.
Elbereth she/her Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) So... While I was lurking on this site, I came up with a variety of questions. I've gone through all the questions and done a quick search, so I don't think any have been asked before. Probably. Mistborn Will Odium affect Scadrial at all? Or has it before? Have any Shards other than Ruin/Preservation ever affected Scadrial? Or will they? Did Hoid want Vin to come to him in book 3 as an informant? Roshar Do the people of Roshar perceive the afterlife as the Tranquiline Halls? Has the Tranquiline Halls ever been a real place? Are there any versions of the Almighty's name that are related to Tanavast? Though perhaps more symmetrical? Which Shard came to Roshar first? Is the place where the Heralds were tortured on Roshar? Are there any more continents on Roshar? Have we seen the entirety of the Letter? Is the person being addressed (PBA) in the letter a Shard? (I know he's on the world of the Liar of Partinel (Taldain? Yolen?) now, but I don't think it says the PBA came from there, just that they are there now.) How many Shards have ever been on Roshar? Are there more types of Shardblades that we haven't seen yet? Is there more than one type of Shardplate? Are there any spren in Shinovar? How many? Cosmere Is it possible for Splinters to form into Shards again? (I have a feeling this has been answered, but I couldn't find anything) Did Hoid know any of the Shardholders before they began to hold Shards? Ones we know? Which ones? What feelings does he show towards them? Are any of the Shards influenced by the force opposing Adonalsium? Some more than others? Are Shardholders able to have children? With mortals or other holders? What would happen if they did? Have any so far? Are any Shards affecting worlds they are not on? Sel The people of MaiPon are, obviously, right about Realmatic theory. Who taught them that/how do they know? EDIT: Another thing. Could you use chromium to burn an Inquisitor's spikes? Or at least Marsh's, because he's alive. Edited January 10, 2014 by Limelleth
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Which Shard came to Roshar first? Are there any more continents on Roshar? How many Shards have ever been on Roshar? Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar together. The supercontinent is the only continent, not that there is nothing out there. Three, unless you count all of them being there as part of Adonalsium.
Elbereth she/her Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Could you get me a quote on the third one? I haven't seen seen anything to indicate that there couldn't be more Shards. Or have been more Shards in the past. Edited January 10, 2014 by Limelleth
Oudeis he/him Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Who exactly painted, "the battle of twilight falls"? 1
Oudeis he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Can either Aura Reconition or Life Sense (two powers granted by the Heightenings of Breath) allow an Awakener to theoretically sense other forms of Investiture, the way allomantic bronze can?
PorridgeBrick he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 In the 30 magic systems you described for Roshar, are fabrials included? Or are they just a mechanical way of accessing those systems, like how the southern Scadrialans access the Metallic Arts in a mechanical way?
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 In the 30 magic systems you described for Roshar, are fabrials included? Or are they just a mechanical way of accessing those systems, like how the southern Scadrialans access the Metallic Arts in a mechanical way? This WoB seems to indicate they are included: RagsYou have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it. Brandon SandersonFabrials are part of it. (source) 1
Oudeis he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Is there a difference between Innate Investiture, and Spiritwebs?
Meg Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Is there a difference between Innate Investiture, and Spiritwebs? I'd say: yes. My try to explain as I understand it: Each living being has it's own, individual Spiritweb. Beings with Innate Investiture have their ability to access the Power of Creation (more or less) "automatically" or by birth on a specific world in the Cosmere. The Spiritwebs of those beings are "innately" altered with "Investiture" (like Breath on Nalthis, but: not the Divine Breath!). Beings without Innate Investiture can gain Investiture for example by ingesting Lerasium which alters their Spiritweb to enable their access to the Power of Creation. Hemalurgy alters (more: messes) the Spiritweb of the victim but gives this access to the receiver. Is this understandable?
PorridgeBrick he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I'd say: yes. My try to explain as I understand it:Each living being has it's own, individual Spiritweb. Beings with Innate Investiture have their ability to access the Power of Creation (more or less) "automatically" or by birth on a specific world in the Cosmere. The Spiritwebs of those beings are "innately" altered with "Investiture" (like Breath on Nalthis, but: not the Divine Breath!).Beings without Innate Investiture can gain Investiture for example by ingesting Lerasium which alters their Spiritweb to enable their access to the Power of Creation. Hemalurgy alters (more: messes) the Spiritweb of the victim but gives this access to the receiver.Is this understandable?Isn't Innate Investiture for more than just magic systems? After all, you can't easily Push or Pull on metals in anyone's flesh, which would indicate that everyone has innate investiture.My understanding of the two is that Innate Investiture is just your spiritual energy- the stuff that keeps you going spiritually. It's your life energy. Spiritwebs by contrast are the actual layout of your spiritual "body". In physical terms, sDNA is the spirit's blueprint, its DNA, Spiritwebs is the body itself built on the basis of that blueprint, and Innate Investiture is its power. This WoB seems to indicate they are included: (source) Thanks! I completely forgot about that quote. 1
Oudeis he/him Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I'd say: yes. My try to explain as I understand it: Each living being has it's own, individual Spiritweb. Beings with Innate Investiture have their ability to access the Power of Creation (more or less) "automatically" or by birth on a specific world in the Cosmere. The Spiritwebs of those beings are "innately" altered with "Investiture" (like Breath on Nalthis, but: not the Divine Breath!). Beings without Innate Investiture can gain Investiture for example by ingesting Lerasium which alters their Spiritweb to enable their access to the Power of Creation. Hemalurgy alters (more: messes) the Spiritweb of the victim but gives this access to the receiver. Is this understandable? I agree with porridge... I'll try to locate it, but I believe that "Innate Investiture" is something literally every sentient human (and a few non-humans, perhaps) possesses in the cosmere, WoB, not simply "the capacity to perform one of the formal systems of Investiture (magic).
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