Anything you felt should have been done differently in The Stormlight Archive?

[Moash]

I got busy a while ago and kind of stopped reading, but lately with the announcements about the third stormlight, I have been getting very excited again and so I have been going back through both books 1 and 2 of the stormlight archive. I really love them and think they are great, but I would now and then wish some things were different as I felt the story could have been better had some different decisions been made for certain circumstances. I was wondering what you wished was different in the book series, what criticisms do you have for it? Yes it is okay for people who like something to discuss what they did not like as much and what might have been a better outcome instead.

[Quiver he/him]

Well...

I was disappointed with the Amaram reveal; I was hoping for more of an "evil good guy" role, representing the danger of destination before Journey in a nuanced way, while the canon version seems...moustache-twirley.

I also kind of wish Kaladin hadn't restored his arm when Szeth cut it? After having his entire skill set defined by his spearman abilities, it might have been fascinating seeing him adjust to life without them.

[Moash]

Personally I kind of wish he had not been cut on the arm by Szeth in the first place as I would not have liked him losing his spear arm or losing it and then immediately getting it back. Amaram to me was different than I thought, I expected him to have a larger role on his own, but he seems more as a kind of fake personality. I kind of understood his point of view back in book 1, but he felt almost slimy, he really came across as a complete sham in words of radiance, like nothing about him was honest or real. I dislike him, I wish we saw more of him though as he does almost seem pathetic at times in the book. I don't necessarily find this a bad thing, I was just surprised he was not as complex as I expected and I only wish he had more appearances and felt more like a major character rather than a background presence.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Well...

I was disappointed with the Amaram reveal; I was hoping for more of an "evil good guy" role, representing the danger of destination before Journey in a nuanced way, while the canon version seems...moustache-twirley.

I also kind of wish Kaladin hadn't restored his arm when Szeth cut it? After having his entire skill set defined by his spearman abilities, it might have been fascinating seeing him adjust to life without them.

 

Well, it would also have made for interesting banter between Kaladin and Lopen to see who could tell the best 1-armed joke (wait...Kaladin...tell a joke? What....?)

 

Kaladin could have done with being a little less whiny and Shallan needed to a grow up a little quicker...but we wouldn't have much story then ^^

[Moash]

I think my main problem was just the sheer amount of characters who were almost removed from the story, but then were not. For Jasnah it makes sense to me that she is out of the story before they get to the Shattered Plains, I disliked that Szeth died and got resurrected, and that Dalinar was on the verge of death but got saved at the last second. I personally wonder if it would have been better to kill off Dalinar now, much as I like him. It seems that all of these characters still have lots left to do in the story so if they could not die, I just wish that they didn't all suffer apparent deaths before being revealed to still be alive somehow.

 

 

I would have preferred if Szeth was perhaps captured after being defeated, maybe Nale then gets him out of captivity almost immediately or something like that, instead of killing him and resurrecting him within the span of a few chapters. Szeth at the end as I recall finally accepted that the Radiants were returned and that his oath was worthless and he accepted death. I just think it would have been best to not have that many characters in one book apparently die. Jasnah was mostly necessary in my opinion, but Dalinar and Szeth could have perhaps been done differently so that it did not feel like the major characters had plot armour. Sadeas did die, but will anyone feel crushed by his death? At least he did not also come back. Maybe some people will take fault with my opinion, but I just wish Brandon had not done so many apparent deaths. Szeth probably could have been done a little differently and Dalinar to without damaging the story, maybe I am wrong and this was the best way to do it, but it still leaves the apparent death concept being very overrused, especially after it really felt like a big character was going to die in the buildup to the climax and during the promotional campaigns for Words of Radiance.

 

 

 

I was fine with Kaladin and Shallan personally, some took fault with Kaladin's attitude, but i was fine with it and just felt frustrated at how much it was negatively impacting his life. Shallan was in my opinion much better than in book one, she had good chapters and flashbacks which I really enjoyed. In book 1 it was just that her storyline was not converging with the Shattered Plains and it felt annoying to leave kaladin and dalinar and go back to kharbranth. However her final chapters were quite good in my opinion and left me excited for how she would be handled in the sequel, and she exceeded expectations. It was mostly just the pacing of her story and that while Kharbranth was interesting (I do appreciate her chapters much more on the reread), I did not care a lot for it because it did not yet feel comparable to the shattered plains in terms of importance. 

 

 

Yeah for me I really just disliked the apparent deaths, and felt the ending seemed a little rushed with Sadeas dying, Dalinar becoming bondsmith, Renarin revealing he is a radiant, etc. I think perhaps one or two of the pieces at the ending should have been left for later, personally I wish Renarin got more of a developmental arc as his position in the Knights Radiant got built up in book 3. I think Dalinar becoming a bondsmith was necessary though, and perhaps the death of sadeas wouldn't have worked well at the start of book 3. The ending just had two many reveals and surprising moments, I think one or two should have been saved for later like Renarin being a Truthwatcher. Szeth, Dalinar and maybe Sadeas deserved to stay though due to the right timing of these important developments in the overall story.

 

 

 

 

 

One last thing that I just wanted to say which is not criticism related, I am interested in the path book 3 will go because I feel it is not as clear this time around. Way of kings concluded storylines and set up many for book 2, whereas words of radiance wrapped up many storylines and while it set up the much broader conflicts, I do not have any clue how the characters will go about their journey in this one. We know the Voidbringers and Knights Radiant are back, but we don't really know what book 3 will be like. Kaladin is heading home, Dalinar is aiming to lead the Knights Radiant, there will be fallout from the death of Sadeas, Shallan is in the ghostbloods now, szeth is going to "bring justice to shinovar", Jasnah is alive, anything else I missed? We know what is happening with characters, but it is not as easy to picture what will happen. How will Dalinar go about leading the KR? What will happen with Shallan next? What is Jasnah going to do now? Where is Adolin's arc headed now that he killed Sadeas? What will Kaladin and Szeth do after they accomplish their goals (I do not see szeth in shinovar for long, I don't see kaladin at home for long). So its pretty interesting because while the Words of Radiance was mostly revealed in the ending of Way of kings, it does not seem as easy to guess where Oathbringer is going to go in terms of the storyline because all we know for certain is that the overall plot is now KR vs Voidbringers with all the subplots revolving around that at the moment. So I for one understand the plot of book 3, but am entirely unsure about how this book will turn out because it seems that we only know the overall plot, but there are a lot of smaller details and factors we need to know in order to determine the direction of this storyline.

 

 

 

 

So with all that being said, what are your thoughts on the only things I felt could have been improved for words of radiance? 

 

 

 

What are your thoughts on the storyline of the upcoming third stormlight novel?

[Darkness he/him]

I feel like the Sadeas death needed to be sudden. It shook me as a reader to know that such an important character could just die like that. It added a sense of realism to the book... less of a slow illness and more like a car crash.

For Szeth's resurrection. I agree that the scenes were rushed (the alternate ending aside), but I suspect that death was the mechanism Brandon used to sever Szeth's connection to his honorblade. I don't think that connection had to break for Nightblood to enter the picture, but I do think that the honorblade will become important in another way to another character.

I loved Jasnah's plot throughout the book, but I actually felt like Shallan's was a little too convenient. I kept expecting her to get hurt and realize she wasn't in a big game (and yes that did kind of happen), but still she more or less serendipitously stumbled into her plot line (Ghostbloods, Radiancy, Pattern, etc) with her characteristic happy-go-luckiness. It was amusing and well written, but I feel like it would have helped to see more of her personal reflection at her setbacks; say, her time falling into the chasms.

[Chicken]

-Tien's death should've been a lot back in or completely out. It was entirely past the point where it'd accomplish anything meaningful.

 

-Renarin should've had a lot more going on. He's been a cardboard cutout with health problems for 2 whole books, then suddenly comes out as a Radiant and we're expected to care? Nope, I don't care about him at all. He has no personality yet. The shoemaker who died was more interesting.

 

-Szeth and Jasnah's reappearances should've been spaced further.

 

-Stormforms shouldn't have become straight up orcs.

 

-Kaladin and Shallan's return from chasms shouldn't have been seen from any main character's point of view. Give that to Sadeas, that'd have been a great scene.

 

-Rest of the series should focus on Lift and Lopen's crazy adventures on the road from this point on, all the epic fantasy stuff isn't all that necessary.

[Guest]

-Tien's death should've been a lot back in or completely out. It was entirely past the point where it'd accomplish anything meaningful.

 

I disagree. Tien's death was a major milestone in Kaladin's development as a Radiant and whereas we new, from the first pages in WoK, the character named Tien died, we did not know when and how. The flashbacks carried a sickening foreboding where the readers got attached to poor little Tien while knowing full well he would not live old. It was rather effective and I truly loved his Brandon dealt with it.

 

 

-Renarin should've had a lot more going on. He's been a cardboard cutout with health problems for 2 whole books, then suddenly comes out as a Radiant and we're expected to care? Nope, I don't care about him at all. He has no personality yet. The shoemaker who died was more interesting.

 

I agree Renarin is too much of a cardboard for the sickly physicallt inapt but very smart and promise to do great things younger brother, which has in turns annoyed me, but we could not have reasonably spend anytime with Renarin without spoiling his reveal as a Radiant. It is clear Brandon wished for this to come out as a surprised for most readers, but he left enough clues behind for the most aware to piece it out. Any Renarin's POV would have given Glys out, so he wisely left him out. We could argue if Renarin's reveal was effective or if it felt like "not another one". I guess the reaction here depends on how much you care about the character before he got there. For my part, I have long since drop the debate on Renarin and I am now keen to see what Brandon will do with him in book 3.

 

 

-Kaladin and Shallan's return from chasms shouldn't have been seen from any main character's point of view. Give that to Sadeas, that'd have been a great scene.

 

Why Sadeas? Sadeas does not care much for Kaladin: he cares for Dalinar. He has never shown any interest in Shallan. The come back was witness by Dalinar because Dalinar is the one who wanted to have the Radiants back. Kaladin told him he missed it. It was effective. Now, I am not a fan of the chasm scene as I felt it was too contrived and too forced, but there is one character reaction we have not seen which would have been interesting: Adolin. He's just lost the one girl he ever crushed on by his own decision making. It was worth a few paragraphs.

 

 

-Rest of the series should focus on Lift and Lopen's crazy adventures on the road from this point on, all the epic fantasy stuff isn't all that necessary.

 

Huh no. Just plain no. Sorry. Lopen is no major character so I fail to see why he should go on a road trip with Lift? Where does that even come from? As for Lift, she is cute, but she is a 13 years old with an annoying talking language. I personnally want to read more about her, in 10 years from now.

[Kasitor's Tanavast he/him]

I felt that the parshendi should not of been killed of in the way they were. The parshendi were a very interesting group to learn about and it would be great if we learned more. when the rebel parshendi escaped into the chasms in WoR I hoped beyond hope that they would come back later in the book (could sanderson still bring them back?). And Eshonai, If she stuck around and recovered from storm form she could of become a very interesting main character (could she still?). But I feel that bringing back the parshendi is to late and it would be cliche if they survived  and made an appearance later on in the series .

 

Could the spy parshendi that are spread throughout roshar band together to keep a remnant? 

[natc]

I frankly see no reason to assume they have died out at this point in time.

We didn't really see any bodies. Heck, Warform is strong, but stormform is so blatantly superhuman (clears chasms without a running start for crying out loud) that I won't be surprised that Eshonai with her shardplate to take a lot of the impact is fine.

[Moash]

I personally could not stand the writing and dialogue for Lift, I hope he lessens that down and removes it entirely eventually as she gets older. Otherwise it may be extremely painful to read a whole book about her with a flashback sequence. The thing is though, when she is actually more serious, her character is far more interesting. When she is talking like a moron, her character feels much more dumbed down and obnoxious. I tend to get a lot of hate for calling out the dialogue with Lift as bad, but it just does not feel like it fits with the story and its forced beyond belief. 

[Guest]

I personally could not stand the writing and dialogue for Lift, I hope he lessens that down and removes it entirely eventually as she gets older. Otherwise it may be extremely painful to read a whole book about her with a flashback sequence. The thing is though, when she is actually more serious, her character is far more interesting. When she is talking like a moron, her character feels much more dumbed down and obnoxious. I tend to get a lot of hate for calling out the dialogue with Lift as bad, but it just does not feel like it fits with the story and its forced beyond belief. 

 

Well, whereas Lift tend to be a fans-favorite, there are people whom dislike her language, so you are not alone. For my part, I would rather not read too much about her until she matures a bit more. For now, I see her as a future character we get a few glimpses of during interludes. Anyway, Brandon once stated he did not plan on having Lift leave the interludes before the second half of SA, though he does plan an additional novel which may feature her or Lopen. I do not feel strongly for any of these two in a novel at this point in time, so I guess I will have to wait and see.

[EvilNuff]

Spoilers follow:

 

 

I feel that the Jasnah scenes were just poorly written.  She was too well developed a character to kill off that quickly with too many unanswered questions.  Similar to the end of a Dance With Dragons there is too much build up (R+L=J for example) that would be wasted without something happening other than what was visibly described.

 

With Jasnah and Szeth both coming back now nobody feels in danger to me.  I need several major characters to actually die to regain that sense of potential danger.

 

Renarin is a truly horrible character.  As described he is a shallow, 2 dimensional character.  He is incredibly selfish and actively detrimental to his family.  As depicted so far he has been more harmful to the Kholin's than anyone but Sadeas!  Brandon will have to take a 180o in describing him in future books for me to see him as anything but just a terribly written, incomplete character.

 

I think book 1 has the downward spiral Kaladin goes on carry on a bit long.  It feels pretty drawn out, ultimately the redemption at the Tower is worth it, but it felt dragged out.  I also felt that he reverted a bit in book 2 and regressed some.  This left me wondering what Syl saw in him at times.  I have to assume it was potential more than anything else. 

[Guest]

I feel that the Jasnah scenes were just poorly written.  She was too well developed a character to kill off that quickly with too many unanswered questions.  Similar to the end of a Dance With Dragons there is too much build up (R+L=J for example) that would be wasted without something happening other than what was visibly described.

 

I disagree. Jasnah was not a character I personally found very developed after reading WoK. Her parts were read from Shallan's perspective and my thoughts, at the time, were Jasnah was a secondary character to Shallan. I did not dwell onto the forums back then, so my perception was entirely that of a casual reader, one that loved the book, but did not look for more on the Internet. When she died, I was surprised she would die this early, but I was not shocked as she was not important enough for me to be shocked about.

 

I was happy she was still alive though as she was a potentially interesting character, but she could also have remained dead and I would not have qualm over it.

 

 

With Jasnah and Szeth both coming back now nobody feels in danger to me.  I need several major characters to actually die to regain that sense of potential danger.

 

I personally dislike how Szeth came back, but I disagree with the statement several major characters need to die. I do not think having had Szeth and Jasnah brought back lessen the threat to the remaining ones: for instance I am deadly scared Adolin will die. I more or less expect Dalinar to die, but I am rather convinced Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah and Renarin will survive. Kaladin may die in the first arc, but I would be surprised if Renarin and Jasnah did not survive the series.

 

That being said I still do not feel anyone needs to die. I personally dislike reading major characters dying. I was traumatised enough by reading Tien's sad story, no one else needs to bite the dust. All character currently considered as major still have a story to tell so to kill them before they tell it does not please me: it is GRRM style and whereas I have enjoyed the GoT books, I have absolutely no attachment to any of these characters. In the case of SA, I can say I am attached to these characters, some more than others, but I wish no one's death.

 

Knowing I may not keep on reading about my favorites is danting enough to make me lose all passion towards SA so if it turns into a blood bath in book 3, I am unusure how I will react.

 

 

Renarin is a truly horrible character.  As described he is a shallow, 2 dimensional character.  He is incredibly selfish and actively detrimental to his family.  As depicted so far he has been more harmful to the Kholin's than anyone but Sadeas!  Brandon will have to take a 180o in describing him in future books for me to see him as anything but just a terribly written, incomplete character.

 

Ah Renarin, Renarin, Renarin. A fan's favorite on the Internet, but one many does not understand. I feel Brandon did not wrote enough background on him to make his most casual readers understand him. His autism is not obvious enough and without knowing about it, it makes reading him a different experience, one where the reader is too often unable to give him leeway for his behavior. Or perhaps this was Brandon's intend all along. 

 

I do believe the argument that Renarin is, in a way, more spoiled than Adolin can be made, but since he is less successful and less falmboyant as his brother it passes as less. It would be an interesting discussion to have about him, but I have long since grown fearful of discussions about Renarin, especially that one.

 

I agree though more Renarin is needed as there is a substancial amount of readers whom have a hard time understanding him, a flaw I hope will be corrected within next book. The kid has a few interesting things going on for him (vision, strong bond with brother, hiding everything, secrety - what do you know exaclty Renarin?), so a stronger character development would make him more endearing to those who are not naturally attracted to his character. That being said, I understand there were reasons why Brandon kept such a low profile in the first two books.

Edited July 28, 2015 by maxal

[kaellok he/him]

Second time writing this post, because reasons.

 

Disclaimer: I loved WoR.  The parts of it that were good were amazing.  The parts of it that weren't good were only bad in comparison.  If the entirety of the novel had been of the caliber/quality of the parts that I don't like or would have done something differently, it would still have been a great book.

 

What I would have done differently all involve, or revolve around, Kaladin.  He was super-angsty Broody McBrooderson.  I had finished a re-read-through of WoK around an hour before I started WoR.  The first 1/2 - 2/3 of WoR, he seemed to be following the exact same character arc as in WoK.  Issues that I thought were fairly well addressed by the end of WoK were suddenly the only thing he lived for.  I wasn't expecting him to be throwing fetes for Lighteyes, but Harmony, I figured there'd be less active as well as generalized/non-specific hate.

 

The Kaladin-Moash thing didn't feel organic or real to me.  It felt like there was a scene Brandon wanted to write, and he started there, and tried to force a path that had that scene as the end.  Even if this works many times, it was not a great success here.

 

The book was supposed to be Shallan's.  And while she had great moments, she had nothing to do with the climax.  Her role in the climax was solving some riddle/puzzle to the Oathgates.  And relatively little time was spent on that, in comparison to Adolin's fight against the Parshendi or Kaladin vs. Moash and later Szeth.

 

Kaladin gets another glowy explosion after saying an Oath, where we immediately start learning more about this whole Radiant business.  Shallan gets forced to see a vision that isn't the root cause of her becoming a Radiant, and this isn't explored at all except for her to tell Pattern that she hates him.  (Possibly in earnest, possibly not; we can't even tell how she really feels, because it's not explored at all.  Hard to explore it in a few paragraphs as an anti-climax, though.)  

 

Really, the last 1/8 the book or so.  For me, nothing after the chasm scene (literally nothing) worked quite the way it should have.

 

Still, the book is brilliant.  I was re-reading some of the Shallan flashback scenes for a post a couple weeks ago, and I was still struck with how strong they are.  (I felt mildly invested in her as a character after my first WoK read, but after WoR--extreme resonance between her and her past and mine own.  That is probably a large reason why I am so frustrated with how small a role she played in the ending; as this was her book, the odds of her having a large role to play in a climactic way in future novels is vanishingly slim.)  I simply don't like Kaladin as much after WoR as I did before, and it's rather clear that he is the central character in the SA.  (Yes yes, there's plenty of other main/important/critical characters.  Sanderson may throw a twist at us.  Blah blah blah, doesn't change my stupid feelings because they don't listen to logic for some damnation reason )

[+Wax he/him]

Personally, I felt that generally a lot of scenes which needed more explanation, got pushed into the following book, when they could have stayed in the original book.  So, one ends up with this huge rush at the end in both books, that we end up just rereading the last few chapters for a few words.

 

+ WoK was too dry at the start.  And the whole Kaladin the slave story line was so predictable/cliche.  It could have been done faster.  Instead the below would have served better.

 

+  A lot of the explanations came in WoR.  I thought the most powerful scene in WoR was:-

 

 

The scene where Shallan kills her father by strangling him. If you've read it, go back and read that scene again. It is the most haunting, heart breaking and tear inducing scene in WoR, even though on 1st read someone can easily gloss over it.

 This scene should have sat next to Shallan's disclosure in WoK where she discloses to

cryptics from shadesmarr about the powerful truth of her killing her father.  She said it in one sentence, but it would have been great to see that entire thing play out along with those scenes

.

 

+ Perhaps more viewpoints could have been added.  I know Sadeas got a POV in WoR, but it would have been great to see some more of Amaram's POV, e.g. when Kaladin was betrayed in WoK.

 

+ I think one of Jushu/Naan Balat got a POV interlude in WoK.  It would have been interesting to see their POV in WoR as well.  I suspect they will get more in "Oathbringer/SA3".

[EvilNuff]

Maxal you make some good points, responses below...

 

I disagree. Jasnah was not a character I personally found very developed after reading WoK. Her parts were read from Shallan's perspective and my thoughts, at the time, were Jasnah was a secondary character to Shallan. I did not dwell onto the forums back then, so my perception was entirely that of a casual reader, one that loved the book, but did not look for more on the Internet. When she died, I was surprised she would die this early, but I was not shocked as she was not important enough for me to be shocked about.

...

 

I chose the wrong word here, you are correct she was not well developed.  What I intended to say was there were too many unanswered questions about her that had been hinted at to the readers and left unresolved for me to believe in her death.  You have a character who has been built up in this world.  She obviously has answers that we the readers (through Shallan) cannot have this early in the series so she has to be removed from the narrative.  I remember thinking at the end of WoK, "Wow how is he going to handle Jasnah mentoring Shallon going forward, she clearly has too much knowledge".  So I expected something to happen to separate the two of them early in WoR.  The way that it happened was what frustrated me.  "Killing" her off just felt like weak writing and a pretty obvious fake out.

 

 

...

Ah Renarin, Renarin, Renarin. A fan's favorite on the Internet, but one many does not understand. I feel Brandon did not wrote enough background on him to make his most casual readers understand him. His autism is not obvious enough and without knowing about it, it makes reading him a different experience, one where the reader is too often unable to give him leeway for his behavior. Or perhaps this was Brandon's intend all along. 

 

I do believe the argument that Renarin is, in a way, more spoiled than Adolin can be made, but since he is less successful and less falmboyant as his brother it passes as less. It would be an interesting discussion to have about him, but I have long since grown fearful of discussions about Renarin, especially that one.

...

 

My dislike of Renarin has absolutely nothing to do with his autism.  My dislike of him is because of his personality and selfishness.  He is the son of a major power and he needs to support his house and family.  Throughout the first two books he repeatedly displays sheer stupidity over and over again and endangers his entire house!  He has a "blood disorder" that renders him unsuitable for military training yet he insists on continuing to avoid any other calling.  His brother and father love him so (assuming that Brandon has a complete picture of him in his head/notes) his personality cannot be as bad as shown to the readers through the first two books.  

 

Shards, as described, are critical to military success so when Dalinar gave his plate, Renarin should have declined it so it would actually be used.  When Adolin started winning shards he again should have declined a blade so it could be used by someone in Dalinar's forces who would be more effective.  Keeping either or both of those was pure selfishness and an act that makes Renarin more like Sadeas than Dalinar or Adolin.  He actively weakened his family, after they were already dealt a harsh blow at the Tower, by keeping those shards!  That is the worst action depicted so far in the books by anyone other than Sadeas towards house Kholin!  

 

When he did take the blade and heard screaming he should have immediately told his father and renounced the blade and plate.  It was obvious he could not wield them.  His father had visions, he would be receptive to Renarin experiencing something extra-natural.  Those shards in the hands of a fighter would have meant who knows how many house Kholin soldier's lives being saved on bridge runs after he received them!  So we already have the 2nd greatest villain to house Kholin before this making his betrayals even worse.  Just think about it, Renarin's selfishness is directly responsible for more Kholin deaths than Amaram's betrayals.

 

Finally the duel.  By joining the duel he prevented someone else who could have helped from joining in the fight.  He knew that he could not fight (because of the screaming) so by joining he significantly increased the chances that Adolin would lose.  It is probable that he did it out of love for his brother, but that incredibly serious lack of judgement is further proof that he has no business being a shard bearer.  It is one thing to be emotional if you can back it up with ability, but Renarin has neither.

 

I have no doubts that as he grows as a Radiant his character will change...but to date his the greatest (still living) villain for house Kholin. I suspect that Brandon intends a very strong redemption story for him but it remains to be seen how many books that will take to play out.

 

 

...

What I would have done differently all involve, or revolve around, Kaladin.  He was super-angsty Broody McBrooderson.  I had finished a re-read-through of WoK around an hour before I started WoR.  The first 1/2 - 2/3 of WoR, he seemed to be following the exact same character arc as in WoK.  Issues that I thought were fairly well addressed by the end of WoK were suddenly the only thing he lived for.  I wasn't expecting him to be throwing fetes for Lighteyes, but Harmony, I figured there'd be less active as well as generalized/non-specific hate.

 

The Kaladin-Moash thing didn't feel organic or real to me.  It felt like there was a scene Brandon wanted to write, and he started there, and tried to force a path that had that scene as the end.  Even if this works many times, it was not a great success here.

 

The book was supposed to be Shallan's.  And while she had great moments, she had nothing to do with the climax.  Her role in the climax was solving some riddle/puzzle to the Oathgates.  And relatively little time was spent on that, in comparison to Adolin's fight against the Parshendi or Kaladin vs. Moash and later Szeth.

 

Kaladin gets another glowy explosion after saying an Oath, where we immediately start learning more about this whole Radiant business.  Shallan gets forced to see a vision that isn't the root cause of her becoming a Radiant, and this isn't explored at all except for her to tell Pattern that she hates him.  (Possibly in earnest, possibly not; we can't even tell how she really feels, because it's not explored at all.  Hard to explore it in a few paragraphs as an anti-climax, though.)  

...

 

Great post, thanks!  I really agree across the board with you here and I think you phrased my frustrations with Kaladin's journey in WoR better than I could, thank you!

[Guest]

 

...

 

Great post Kaellok.

 

I agree with your commentary about Kaladin's prejudice towards lighteyes being somewhat redundant, but for my part, I was not annoyed at him until Part 4. Before this, I was still heavily rooting for Kaladin, though Adolin moved past him sometimes during Part 2. What I thought was redundant was the entire prison scene. I recalled how annoyed I was at the time to see go into prison. I also found I had no interest in reading his dark thoughts are he brooded in there, especially after having been told it was a lesser evil for him to be there. His recurring lack of trust towards Dalinar was frustrating even if understandable. 

 

I don't agree about the Moash/Kaladin scene not feeling real as I thought it was a nice touch to have Kaladin being forced to weight in his allegiances. He had to choose who to protect as he could not protect both Moash and the king. He tried, but made the mistake of giving out Shards to a known threat simply to spite the Kholin for having dared put him in prison. He was disrespectful towards the incredible gift of Shards (sincerely, I wish to know if such an event ever happened in the past on Roshar: a lighteyed giving out Shards to a darkeyed), not because he refused them, but because he gave them to the worst possible person and he knew it. However, the scene worked for me. Kaladin may be a hero, but he sure is not perfect, so I liked reading about it.

 

That being said, I personally disliked Part 4 because it featured the chasm scene which felt contrived, to me. I felt Brandon wanted to put these two characters together just so he could have an excuse to bring about a spark. It ringed false to me. I felt Kaladin and Shallan pasts had nothing at all in common, so to have them supposedly bond over it was forced, to me. I also disliked how both characters, when put in the middle of death itself, still refused to talk about their powers until it was nearly too late. Part 4 was the weakest one for me. I was also unsatisfied by the lack of Adolin POV following Shallan supposed death. After hearing him jump happily like a love-sick moron for an entire chapter, not seeing his reaction after watching the only woman he ever loved fall to her death was a miss, to me.

 

Part 5 was better: it had a lot of Adolin action, so I loved it   I disagree Shallan had no part to play into the final climax, but I understand your views. However, Shallan is not a warrior, so she could have, reasonably be seen taking an active role into the fighting. It was more within character to have her unlock the Oathgate instead. I did not feel we did not spend enough time with her as reading about her trying to figure it out did not require that much page time. It was mostly her fussing around... I agree Kaladin fighting Szeth kinda moved the focus from Shallan's actions to, yet again, Kaladin playing at being a hero. 

 

I agree with your commentary stating you fear this has become the Kaladin Archive as opposed to the Stormlight Archive. I must say I had the same thought. Not that I dislike Kaladin, I like him well enough, but after WoR, I wish to spend less time with him and more time with the other characters, namely anyone names Kholin. The fact he has been so central to all of the action in both books is worrisome for the future. I wish for him to take a more laid-back role in book 3. By laid-back, I do not mean nonexistent, but perhaps equivalent to Shallan back in WoK.

 

 

I chose the wrong word here, you are correct she was not well developed.  What I intended to say was there were too many unanswered questions about her that had been hinted at to the readers and left unresolved for me to believe in her death.  You have a character who has been built up in this world.  She obviously has answers that we the readers (through Shallan) cannot have this early in the series so she has to be removed from the narrative.  I remember thinking at the end of WoK, "Wow how is he going to handle Jasnah mentoring Shallon going forward, she clearly has too much knowledge".  So I expected something to happen to separate the two of them early in WoR.  The way that it happened was what frustrated me.  "Killing" her off just felt like weak writing and a pretty obvious fake out.

 

Thanks for explaining. For my part, I was not overly enthralled by Jasnah back in WoK, so I did not have much expectation for her in WoR. I must admit I was rather focused on Kaladin back then and having lack the entire forum discussion, I had not have the opportunity to expand my thoughts furthermore. I recalled I was annoyed when the POV moved from Kaladin to anyone else, though I grudgingly admitted after a fashion, the character named Adolin was fun to read........ 

 

I was surprised she died this early and I did think she was truly dead. However, I am now glad she is not dead as I do see she has a story to tell. It was not a weak moment for me in WoR.

 

 

 

My dislike of Renarin has absolutely nothing to do with his autism.  My dislike of him is because of his personality and selfishness.  He is the son of a major power and he needs to support his house and family.  Throughout the first two books he repeatedly displays sheer stupidity over and over again and endangers his entire house!  He has a "blood disorder" that renders him unsuitable for military training yet he insists on continuing to avoid any other calling.  His brother and father love him so (assuming that Brandon has a complete picture of him in his head/notes) his personality cannot be as bad as shown to the readers through the first two books.  

 

Shards, as described, are critical to military success so when Dalinar gave his plate, Renarin should have declined it so it would actually be used.  When Adolin started winning shards he again should have declined a blade so it could be used by someone in Dalinar's forces who would be more effective.  Keeping either or both of those was pure selfishness and an act that makes Renarin more like Sadeas than Dalinar or Adolin.  He actively weakened his family, after they were already dealt a harsh blow at the Tower, by keeping those shards!  That is the worst action depicted so far in the books by anyone other than Sadeas towards house Kholin!  

 

When he did take the blade and heard screaming he should have immediately told his father and renounced the blade and plate.  It was obvious he could not wield them.  His father had visions, he would be receptive to Renarin experiencing something extra-natural.  Those shards in the hands of a fighter would have meant who knows how many house Kholin soldier's lives being saved on bridge runs after he received them!  So we already have the 2nd greatest villain to house Kholin before this making his betrayals even worse.  Just think about it, Renarin's selfishness is directly responsible for more Kholin deaths than Amaram's betrayals.

 

Finally the duel.  By joining the duel he prevented someone else who could have helped from joining in the fight.  He knew that he could not fight (because of the screaming) so by joining he significantly increased the chances that Adolin would lose.  It is probable that he did it out of love for his brother, but that incredibly serious lack of judgement is further proof that he has no business being a shard bearer.  It is one thing to be emotional if you can back it up with ability, but Renarin has neither.

 

I have no doubts that as he grows as a Radiant his character will change...but to date his the greatest (still living) villain for house Kholin. I suspect that Brandon intends a very strong redemption story for him but it remains to be seen how many books that will take to play out.

 

I did not mean to imply you disliked Renarin because he was autistic. I meant to state it made it easier, for me, to understand him once I knew about it. Before that, I was willing to throw him on the wall. After finding out he truly was autistic and having spent quite a deal of time reading about it on Google as well as looking out for the tiny clues, I was able to better understand him. His thinking patterns are different, so he behaves differently. He has a rigidity which makes it harder for him to react and to be pro-active. I am a rather pro-active person which is probably why I struggle so much with him.

 

Reading Renarin again while knowing he is autistic gave me another level of understanding and hence, I have grown softer with him. My criticism is thus, having known that in advance, I would have probably reacted less negatively to the character to begin with.

 

For my part, the one thing that still annoys me with Renarin is the fact he is considered to be non-spoiled when compared to his brother. The first thing Kaladin remarks on Renarin is his slender limbs and his delicate hands that never saw work. How is it Kaladin, of all people, is able to sympathize with the nonworking son of a Highprince simply because his coat buttons are less shiny? This, I did not get. Kaladin is a hard worker, if anything, he should have been discussed at seeing Renarin being able to enjoy the luxuries of the lighteyed way of living while not being asked to work in return. Adolin may be spoiled, but Adolin works his butt of all day: he trains hard and he works hard. He contributes. Renarin? He is ask to gather the occasional reports but is not seen doing much more. Surely there are other tasks he could accomplish. I am unable to believe there is just nothing he could have done else than soldering.... 

 

People take Adolin for spoiled because he likes nice clothes, but let's not forget Adolin's expense account is also available to Renarin. The fact he chose not to use it is irrelevant. Renarin does not not buy fancy boots because he has a generous spirit and feels it would be acting too spoiled: he does not do it because he does not care about what kind of boots he wear. Huge difference.

 

So for me, Renarin is spoiled in the sense he is not asked to actually work, but he is allowed to live in luxuries. Adolin, at least, while being a princeling fop, does his share of work and not all have to do with being a soldier.

 

I disagree Renarin should have give up the Shards prior to trying. The kid never had a chance: he wanted one. This is understandable. The Kholins should have trained Renarin before: I failed to see how his sickness prevented him from learning any sword play on the training field. This appears like over-protectiveness to me. To be fair, he initially refused them, but both Dalinar and Adolin insisted. However, I agree that, after he gave up his lessons, he should have let another soldier use them during the Plateau fight. Not doing so does indeed appear as selfish.

 

My thoughts on Renarin are he seems more centered on himself than Adolin, but then again Adolin is particularly selfless. The comparison may not hold, but having Kaladin instantaneously like Renarin was a weak moment for me. Kaladin is a hard worker: of both Kholin brothers, he should have noticed how little Renarin is asked to do.

[kaellok he/him]

 

I don't agree about the Moash/Kaladin scene not feeling real as I thought it was a nice touch to have Kaladin being forced to weight in his allegiances. 

 

I didn't buy their friendship at all.  I mean, one line in WoK from Kaladin thinking to himself, "This guy's my best friend!!!!" Even though he spends almost no time with Moash when others are around, and even less when others aren't.  Actions speak much louder than words or thoughts, and I just don't see that being a real friendship.  Even in WoR, I don't see the actions to back it up to create the dichotomy between the two of them that Sanderson wanted to show us.

 

On the other hand, I thought the chasm scene was absolutely brilliant, from beginning to end.  Even the POV shifts were done correctly to maximize the emotional payoff for various things.  (Just imagine what the scene would have looked like with the POVs flip-flopped.  Am I the only who does that?  Is that something a crazy person does?)

 

The outline of what happened is good; I just think the execution fell a bit flat.  

 

Towards the final climax--the climax of WoR wasn't discovering Urithuru, or defeating the Voidbringers.  It was Kaladin realizing the Ideals of a Windrunner, becoming a Radiant in truth, and thus slaying the Truthless.  Shallan's actions towards this were, honestly, nonexistent.  If you argue that it was all part of the same thing, then that's fine; my point that there was still more time spent with Kaladin in climax, in a more exciting/engaging/active (rather than reactive) way is also true.  I think that if Shallan had gone off to be an active hero, and Renarin was left to discover the Oathgate, it would have been beneficial for both of their characters.  The Renarin-as-Radiant reveal would have happened during a useful time, rather than an, "Oh, hey, by the way, now that we're not in danger of dying, I see things" and freed up Shallan to be interesting and a hero that helps save the day in the book devoted to explaining why she is a sympathetic character we should care about.  What this action might be is largely irrelevant so long as it would have kept her in the spotlight that I feel she should have had.

 

Towards Renarin and the discussion Maxal and EvilNuff have had--

Coming to the boards and reading many posts by Feather and others helped me to actually see him in another light.  It's easy to say he's selfish and unlikable and etc. -- because that's honestly kinda what we see.  Understanding what's going on in his mind that causes him to express himself that way makes him a stronger character.  This should, hopefully, be reinforced significantly in further novels

(Case in point--in the arena, he goes in to try and save Adolin, while wielding a Blade that is screaming in his mind.  He's not able to act well, but he can still act at all, which is incredibly powerful.  I mean, the one guy touched the blade for a second and fled and he was a trained, disciplined fighter.)

 

Acting in his family's best interests or not, endangering them or not, foolish or not, Renarin's love for family is so powerfully there that I have to respect the guy.

[Guest]

 

I didn't buy their friendship at all.  I mean, one line in WoK from Kaladin thinking to himself, "This guy's my best friend!!!!" Even though he spends almost no time with Moash when others are around, and even less when others aren't.  Actions speak much louder than words or thoughts, and I just don't see that being a real friendship.  Even in WoR, I don't see the actions to back it up to create the dichotomy between the two of them that Sanderson wanted to show us.

 

I see your point. I think it actually highlights how little friends Kaladin has had in his life. He does know about friendship so he mistakes Moash for his best friend. Moash is, by far, the closest he has ever been towards another man his age. Arguably, he is not very close, as you highlighted, but to Kaladin it is much more then he's ever had. It is not a real friendship, but I think this was intentional from Brandon, not a mishap. 

 

Kaladin thinks it is one due to his lack of experience in the matter, but future events shows the truth: Moash is not Kaladin's friend. 

 

I think it was well brought up.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I thought the chasm scene was absolutely brilliant, from beginning to end.  Even the POV shifts were done correctly to maximize the emotional payoff for various things.  (Just imagine what the scene would have looked like with the POVs flip-flopped.  Am I the only who does that?  Is that something a crazy person does?)

 

Ah I disliked the chasm scene. In fact, I must admit I have disliked pretty much the entire Kaladin/Shallan banter... Early in WoR, I did not have such strong feelings for Adolin: in fact I preferred Kaladin. When I jumped affection is actually unclear: I have not documented my whole thinking process, but it was gradual. Anyway, I state this such as to remove the thought others may have I disliked the banter because I love Adolin too much and root too strongly for the Adolin/Shallan union. 

 

So, at the time, I was not overly rooting for Adolin, not yet, not completely. He grew on me, progressively. However, I recall the scene when Shallan arrives in the Shattered Plains and walks to meet the Kholins, Adolin more specifically, for the first time. They had not interact yet. She is stopped by Kaladin and they start to argue. I read that scene at the gym and as I sat on the mattress being too absorbed in my reading to continue with my training, I though "Oh no, no, no." I hated it for the cliche it was: "So they are going to fight then fall in love, BORING just as she is about to meet Adolin... Bad, bad, bad... just like every single dumb girls movies I have ever seen"

 

Somehow, I never dig into the whole Kaladin/Shallan scenes, so the chasm scenes, for me, were bad. 

 

I imagine plenty of things in my head... it is crazy...     

 

 

 

Towards the final climax--the climax of WoR wasn't discovering Urithuru, or defeating the Voidbringers.  It was Kaladin realizing the Ideals of a Windrunner, becoming a Radiant in truth, and thus slaying the Truthless.  Shallan's actions towards this were, honestly, nonexistent.  If you argue that it was all part of the same thing, then that's fine; my point that there was still more time spent with Kaladin in climax, in a more exciting/engaging/active (rather than reactive) way is also true.  I think that if Shallan had gone off to be an active hero, and Renarin was left to discover the Oathgate, it would have been beneficial for both of their characters.  The Renarin-as-Radiant reveal would have happened during a useful time, rather than an, "Oh, hey, by the way, now that we're not in danger of dying, I see things" and freed up Shallan to be interesting and a hero that helps save the day in the book devoted to explaining why she is a sympathetic character we should care about.  What this action might be is largely irrelevant so long as it would have kept her in the spotlight that I feel she should have had.

 

I get your point. You feel the last scenes were to centered on Kaladin and should have include more Shallan action, a valid point. I must admit I accidentally spoiled myself by reading further ahead in the book  and I saw Shallan and Renarin working on the Oathgate. At first, I thought, finally Renarin is going to get to do something, but huh no. So I agree with your commentary it may have been better had Renarin played a role in unlocking the Oathgate. It would have made a more plausible character to jump to Radianhood as his reveal did feel as it came out of nowhere. Or so it felt to me. 

 

Shallan as an active hero may have been a tad to far-fetched to have her fight someone... but I still see your point.

 

However, as you said in your previous post, I felt book 2 was as much Kaladin's book as it was Shallan. I suspect the following book will be the same: none will focus so strongly on one character as book 1 did. 

 

 

Towards Renarin and the discussion Maxal and EvilNuff have had--

Coming to the boards and reading many posts by Feather and others helped me to actually see him in another light.  It's easy to say he's selfish and unlikable and etc. -- because that's honestly kinda what we see.  Understanding what's going on in his mind that causes him to express himself that way makes him a stronger character.  This should, hopefully, be reinforced significantly in further novels

(Case in point--in the arena, he goes in to try and save Adolin, while wielding a Blade that is screaming in his mind.  He's not able to act well, but he can still act at all, which is incredibly powerful.  I mean, the one guy touched the blade for a second and fled and he was a trained, disciplined fighter.)

 

Acting in his family's best interests or not, endangering them or not, foolish or not, Renarin's love for family is so powerfully there that I have to respect the guy.

 

I actually did not say he was unlikable, simply hard to understand without the prior knowledge of him being autistic. It makes many of his reactions more plausible. I have tried to give him a bit of leeway mostly because we do not know much about him and I do not think he is ill-intentioned, just very mixed up in what he wants, what he can do, what he cannot do and what he should do. 

 

However, I am baffled as to why someone like Kaladin would think him less spoiled than Adolin, that for me was weak. Renarin has the same material privileges as his brother without having to actually earn them. It is not his fault, but the whole perception around Renarin did bothered me for a while.

[heridfel]

For my part, the one thing that still annoys me with Renarin is the fact he is considered to be non-spoiled when compared to his brother. The first thing Kaladin remarks on Renarin is his slender limbs and his delicate hands that never saw work. How is it Kaladin, of all people, is able to sympathize with the nonworking son of a Highprince simply because his coat buttons are less shiny? This, I did not get. Kaladin is a hard worker, if anything, he should have been discussed at seeing Renarin being able to enjoy the luxuries of the lighteyed way of living while not being asked to work in return. Adolin may be spoiled, but Adolin works his butt of all day: he trains hard and he works hard. He contributes. Renarin? He is ask to gather the occasional reports but is not seen doing much more. Surely there are other tasks he could accomplish. I am unable to believe there is just nothing he could have done else than soldering.... 

 

...

 

So for me, Renarin is spoiled in the sense he is not asked to actually work, but he is allowed to live in luxuries. Adolin, at least, while being a princeling fop, does his share of work and not all have to do with being a soldier.

 

I disagree Renarin should have give up the Shards prior to trying. The kid never had a chance: he wanted one. This is understandable. The Kholins should have trained Renarin before: I failed to see how his sickness prevented him from learning any sword play on the training field. This appears like over-protectiveness to me. To be fair, he initially refused them, but both Dalinar and Adolin insisted. However, I agree that, after he gave up his lessons, he should have let another soldier use them during the Plateau fight. Not doing so does indeed appear as selfish.

 

I see Kaladin's view of Renarin differently. The slender limbs and delicate hands that never saw hard labor are a boyish quality which make Renarin seem younger than he is. Renarin wants to be a soldier and live up to his own ideals (as well as his society's ideals), but his family has strongly discouraged him. Now, take that sentence, and replace "Renarin" with "Kaladin". There are some strong parallels there. Kaladin had a few doubts about whether his bond with Syl was responsible for all of his skill with a spear. It wouldn't surprise me if he sees Renarin's lack of skill and wonders if that would have been him without the bond, which would make him even more sympathetic towards Renarin.

 

Renarin also approached him to request to be made part of the guards of Bridge 4. This is the highest-ranking lighteyes that has ever deliberately put himself under Kaladin (as opposed to being ordered to do so by other lighteyes). Even if it did unnerve Kaladin, that action shows a great deal of humility (and a visible contrast to Adolin, who is deliberately showy and whom Kaladin dislikes for most of the book). Their other major interaction is during training, where Renarin displays an obedient attitude very much like Kaladin's.

 

Overall, I'm sympathetic towards Renarin. In his religion, warriors are valued the most. If you aren't a warrior, and you're very good at what you do, then you get to keep doing it in the Tranquiline Halls. But if you don't enjoy what you're very good at, that sounds more like torture than a reward. Add on the stress of being a Radiant who can see the future when that's also against your religion (and the future looks a lot like doom)... yeesh.

 

To answer the original question posed in the topic, I think that Shallan's portions in The Way of Kings should have been integrated more into the narrative arc at the Shattered Plains. To me, her portions of that book (and by extension, Jasnah's) are world-building and exposition rather than a story. I've re-read The Way of Kings a few times where I skip over her chapters entirely, and the book still holds up. I can't see the same being true for skipping Dalinar's or Kaladin's chapters.

Edited September 3, 2015 by heridfel

[AerionBFII he/him]

I find it ridiculous that Renarin is considered spoiled he isnt spoiled he wants to be a soldier to be useful more than anything but he has an illness that prevents him from doing anything useful. Kaladin knew that he had some illness being to ill to work and being too lazy to work are entirely different things. Firstly Kaladin is a surgen so i imagine despite Renarin being a lighteye deep down this won him some sympathy, secondly Renarin is a Radiant. Dalinar was also working on his bond unknowingly throughout the book and he had a great trust in Kal maybe it's part of being a KR in my opinion this could extend to Renarin and Kal.

 

Adolin is an Arrogant chull, which is to be expected. He is a great duelist, son of the greatest Alethi Highpirnce, wealthy and he is the favorite son. Renarin is close to his brother and always backs his brother in everything, in reverse i doubt Adolin would have been so content to be in the back seat if it were him. Renarin is also considered an invalid by pretty much everyone, in a nation where strength rules all, he is virtually friendless.

[Shadowthrone he/him]

One of things that I think could have been done better is this: doesn't it seem like Kaladin has to go through an awful lot more than the other Radiants-in-training? The ideals expected of a Windrunner are extreme, making for a good plotline, but then how were there so many Windrunners in the past? (I recall reading sixteen together at one point, but for the life of me, can't remember where) For Dalinar, it goes: get an epiphany about kingship, be a strong leader (which he should have been anyway), refound KR (which he failed miserably in, until they did it themselves), say a few words, and Voila! One Bondsmith ready. Shallan may have had a horrid time of it in the past, but in the ongoing plotline she faces no great conundrum, moral or otherwise, and the problems she faces are ones a Lightweaver is best suited to handling. Don't even remind me of Lift and her "awesomeness". In contrast, Kaladin has to almost kill himself for every step of advancement as a KR? Maybe it has been deliberately done to highlight the social bridge and how difficult it is for an Alethi darkeyes to rise in that society, but it poses a weighty issue. 

 

It doesn't seem like there will be more Windrunners at all in the series, which, on one hand, is a shame. I for one want to see a squadron of them against a bunch of Thunderclasts. On the other hand, there is going to be at least one other person with Windrunner-like abilities, owing to the Honorblade, which strikes me as very unfair. I found it annoying in Mistborn when Elend becomes an instant Mistborn after Vin had to fight her way there. I suspect I'll start hating this series as well if another Lighteyes or bridgeman took up the mantle of Windrunner and got easily to Kaladin's level. 

[Alfa he/him]

At Feverstone Keep there were about 300 Windrunners and 200 Stonewards.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

-Tien's death should've been a lot back in or completely out. It was entirely past the point where it'd accomplish anything meaningful.

-Renarin should've had a lot more going on. He's been a cardboard cutout with health problems for 2 whole books, then suddenly comes out as a Radiant and we're expected to care? Nope, I don't care about him at all. He has no personality yet. The shoemaker who died was more interesting.

-Szeth and Jasnah's reappearances should've been spaced further.

-Stormforms shouldn't have become straight up orcs.

-Kaladin and Shallan's return from chasms shouldn't have been seen from any main character's point of view. Give that to Sadeas, that'd have been a great scene.

-Rest of the series should focus on Lift and Lopen's crazy adventures on the road from this point on, all the epic fantasy stuff isn't all that necessary.

I agree. The rest of the series being based on Lift and Lopen would change things dramatically. About Tien's death, IT WAS STUPID. HOW COULD ANYONE HARM SUCH A LOVEABLE CHARACTER??!! When I first read his death I was like.... ' wait. Let me read that again'. Why so sudden? Why so... Well.... Uninteresting? Why so normal?( wait? Normal?). It's like Branden's brain was melting from all the work he put into his other books plus the scenes b4 Tien's death. I mean, I knew for a while before I read that scene that Tien was dead but I had expected that he would die by the hand of a Shardbearer, which is why he would decline getting Shardplate and Blade. But how come he had to die because Kaladin distracted him? Just goes to show that at the end of the day we r all human.... And that I should calm down as this is 'just' a book. Edited September 2, 2015 by Eternal_Radiance