Anything you felt should have been done differently in The Stormlight Archive?

[Darkness Ascendant]

I disagree. Jasnah was not a character I personally found very developed after reading WoK. Her parts were read from Shallan's perspective and my thoughts, at the time, were Jasnah was a secondary character to Shallan. I did not dwell onto the forums back then, so my perception was entirely that of a casual reader, one that loved the book, but did not look for more on the Internet. When she died, I was surprised she would die this early, but I was not shocked as she was not important enough for me to be shocked about.

I was happy she was still alive though as she was a potentially interesting character, but she could also have remained dead and I would not have qualm over it.

I personally dislike how Szeth came back, but I disagree with the statement several major characters need to die. I do not think having had Szeth and Jasnah brought back lessen the threat to the remaining ones: for instance I am deadly scared Adolin will die. I more or less expect Dalinar to die, but I am rather convinced Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah and Renarin will survive. Kaladin may die in the first arc, but I would be surprised if Renarin and Jasnah did not survive the series.

That being said I still do not feel anyone needs to die. I personally dislike reading major characters dying. I was traumatised enough by reading Tien's sad story, no one else needs to bite the dust. All character currently considered as major still have a story to tell so to kill them before they tell it does not please me: it is GRRM style and whereas I have enjoyed the GoT books, I have absolutely no attachment to any of these characters. In the case of SA, I can say I am attached to these characters, some more than others, but I wish no one's death.

Knowing I may not keep on reading about my favorites is danting enough to make me lose all passion towards SA so if it turns into a blood bath in book 3, I am unusure how I will react.

Ah Renarin, Renarin, Renarin. A fan's favorite on the Internet, but one many does not understand. I feel Brandon did not wrote enough background on him to make his most casual readers understand him. His autism is not obvious enough and without knowing about it, it makes reading him a different experience, one where the reader is too often unable to give him leeway for his behavior. Or perhaps this was Brandon's intend all along.

I do believe the argument that Renarin is, in a way, more spoiled than Adolin can be made, but since he is less successful and less falmboyant as his brother it passes as less. It would be an interesting discussion to have about him, but I have long since grown fearful of discussions about Renarin, especially that one.

I agree though more Renarin is needed as there is a substancial amount of readers whom have a hard time understanding him, a flaw I hope will be corrected within next book. The kid has a few interesting things going on for him (vision, strong bond with brother, hiding everything, secrety - what do you know exaclty Renarin?), so a stronger character development would make him more endearing to those who are not naturally attracted to his character. That being said, I understand there were reasons why Brandon kept such a low profile in the first two books.

I like how Szeth was brought back, but as a potential force for good this time. I would love to see him get a second chance in life and redeem himself because as we could see from before, he hated himself, so a second chance for him would be a small mercy. After all don't we all wish we could have a second chance at life?

Hello, would you like to destroy some evil today?

( sorry for double posting. My iPad would not allow me to edit my previous post. But it let me edit this one.....)

Edited September 2, 2015 by Eternal_Radiance

[maxal]

I find it ridiculous that Renarin is considered spoiled he isnt spoiled he wants to be a soldier to be useful more than anything but he has an illness that prevents him from doing anything useful. Kaladin knew that he had some illness being to ill to work and being too lazy to work are entirely different things. Firstly Kaladin is a surgen so i imagine despite Renarin being a lighteye deep down this won him some sympathy, secondly Renarin is a Radiant. Dalinar was also working on his bond unknowingly throughout the book and he had a great trust in Kal maybe it's part of being a KR in my opinion this could extend to Renarin and Kal.

 

Adolin is an Arrogant chull, which is to be expected. He is a great duelist, son of the greatest Alethi Highpirnce, wealthy and he is the favorite son. Renarin is close to his brother and always backs his brother in everything, in reverse i doubt Adolin would have been so content to be in the back seat if it were him. Renarin is also considered an invalid by pretty much everyone, in a nation where strength rules all, he is virtually friendless.

 

 What is the definition of "spoil"?

 To harm the character of (a child) by being too lenient or indulgent.

 Is Dalinar too lenient or indulgent with Renarin? Yes.

Dalinar gives Shards to his sickly son in order to help him achieve is childhood dream of becoming a soldier. All the while, he has been arguing the Shards should be given to the king to be awarded to the most deserving soldiers, no matter their princedom. Renarin promptly reminds him of this fact, which Dalinar dismissed. He is allowed to spoil his son and so he does. Nobody is going to blame Dalinar here nor Renarin, but the fact remain Dalinar was being effectively lenient with artifacts worth more than a kingdom.

Adolin behaves just as Dalinar when he gives his first Blade to Renarin. Of course, Renarin does not want it, but still it is given to him. Nobody is going to blame either Adolin nor Renarin here.

Hence, Renarin ends up a Shardbearer. Powerful weapons were just given to the least trained of them all, a fact Kaladin promptly note and he is right. In a time of war, Shards should not have gone to Renarin, but they did.

This is only one example we have seen in book. It is hinted all through both books how Dalinar harbors a very soft spot for his youngest son. Everyone treats him as if he were fragile due to his sickness which no doubt exacerbated his feeling of unworthiness.

Has Dalinar, by his behavior, harm the character of his youngest child? Yes. He did. He allowed the boy to keep on thinking he could be a soldier. He allowed the boy to not choose a Calling. He allowed him to persist into refusing all roles other than soldier when it was obvious he had no ability for it. Renarin is not just sick, he is not athletic. Kaladin remarks how little Renarin seemed to have progressed when compare to Moash while having had more training. 

 

Why does Renarin feel useless? Because he has not found himself a purpose. However, as a father, Dalinar should have help him find one, not allow his son to wander nearly work less all day long (gathering the occasional report does not seem as much work). Not doing so is to keep your child into wishing for something he can't have, worst to end up thinking he should be given the chance. When a child comes forward and asks you: "Can I have this?". If he can't, then the right answer is "No", not "Maybe", because "Maybe" allows the child to keep on wishing for it to the point of exasperation.

It gets worst, at one point, Renarin screams all he can ever hope to achieve is City Lord...... He spits on the position as if it were deminial. It made me think of a child with a learning disability who's grades are not strong enough to enter Med School and would in return spit on any other potential careers because being a doctor hold more social standing... Renarin does the exact same thing. He won't be contented by any other path than soldering as it is the highest calling. He can't be one, but he stubbornly refuse to open up to other possibilities, worst he thinks them unworthy. To refuse to see the possibilities in front of oneself and to lament endlessly on the one who is not available is acting spoiled. Deception is understandable, but to persist into it? Renarin, at least, has a valid excuse to not be a soldier, unlike those who tried but were bad at it (Roion), but he can't see it. As a father, Dalinar is guilty to have allowed his son to entertain this unhealthy behavior, but Renarin is guilty from refusing to accept other possibilities.

Again, I can't blame Dalinar for his actions all too much, nor do I event blame Renarin, but by his behavior, Dalinar has indeed spoiled his youngest son. I have no doubt it was not his intent: parents rarely wake up one day and decide they will spoil their offspring, but it happens. It happens when you refuse to say "No" because you feel pity in front of their sad little faces. It also happens when you give a Ferrari to your physically handicap child just to help him fulfill his dream to have one, when he can't actually drive it.

So essentially, this is why I say Renarin is spoiled, which is not the same as being lazy. Renarin is not lazy, but he is spoiled. He refused to consider other options and, as a result, ended setting himself in a life of inactivity. We only see him start to do something when he is given a small chance at trying out at being a soldier. What was he doing before? Worst, when he realized he was incapable of using his prized toys, he still insist on keeping them. What for? Why keep the Shards after having give up all training? And why did Dalinar allow Renarin to stop his practice? Again, he was being lenient, indulgent.

 

You may give Renarin all the excuses in the world: he has low self-esteem, it is not his fault Vorinism calls for soldering to be the highest calling (never mind those who voluntary choose something else....), the fact remains he has been uselessly stubborn about it and part of the reason he feels so bad about himself is due to his tunnel vision of what worth is. He's young, his father should have step in, but still he does bear some responsibility. 

As for your claim Renarin is friendless, it is unsupported. You assume he is, but textual evidence tend to disagree with you. When they are at the king's feast, back in WoK, Adolin goes back to find Renarin to tell him Navani is back. Where was Renarin? We don't know, but we can't presume he was sitting alone, perhaps he will, but I doubt Adolin would have left his brother being miserable in his corner. Most probably he was with people. In the 4 on 1 duel, Acrobacar is said to be found of Renarin and not wanting to hurt him, so to say he is friendless is an overstatement. He may not be Mr Social Life as his brother (though if we want to talk about a friendless Kholin, we should talk about Adolin), but it is false to assume he is friendless.

As for Kaladin trusting Renarin simply because they were both KR, there is absolutely no textual evidence to support this claim. Dalinar trusts Kaladin because he risked his life to save him. Of all people, Kaladin is the one he is convinced does not spy for Sadeas. This is why Dalinar trusts Kaladin. Why does Kaladin likes Renarin? Because Kaladin is prejudiced and what he sees in Adolin is the physical representation what he has come to hate. He sees the material luxuries into which Adolin was brought up and he gets angry, while being guilty to not admit Renarin has lived in the same same household. Whatever luxury Adolin was given, Renarin had it too. However, Renarin is a weak little bird, so he ends up fitting within the range of people Kaladin genuinely chooses to protect (weak boys, miscreants, lowly darkeyes, these are the individuals that find grace in Kaladin's eyes), hence he likes him.

As for Adolin being an arrogant chull, I'd say his chull is much less arrogant than Kaladin... Adolin is mostly arrogant when he talks to Kaladin and he actually has a valid reason for it. As for your claim Adolin would be a jerk to Renarin had he been sitting into the backseat, this is not supported by any textual evidence, worst it violently clashes with how the character has been written so far. Adolin has had opportunity to mightily resent Kaladin for being more efficient than him against Szeth, for being a Radiant, him a low born darkeye, but he hasn't. Worst, he is glad and happy such a man is on his side. Adolin has never exhibit one glimmer of jealousy all through both books (he had the chance to) so to think he would do so with the brother he loves is just wrong. Even at the end, when confronted to the grand return of the Radiants, he is still not jealous, but wonders where as his place now. He may be arrogant chull at times, but he is not a jealous resentful arrogant one.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

I have always felt Brandon was overpowering Kaladin, but I'd love to see more Windrunners. To compare.

[Grey Knight]

One of things that I think could have been done better is this: doesn't it seem like Kaladin has to go through an awful lot more than the other Radiants-in-training? The ideals expected of a Windrunner are extreme, making for a good plotline, but then how were there so many Windrunners in the past? (I recall reading sixteen together at one point, but for the life of me, can't remember where) For Dalinar, it goes: get an epiphany about kingship, be a strong leader (which he should have been anyway), refound KR (which he failed miserably in, until they did it themselves), say a few words, and Voila! One Bondsmith ready. Shallan may have had a horrid time of it in the past, but in the ongoing plotline she faces no great conundrum, moral or otherwise, and the problems she faces are ones a Lightweaver is best suited to handling. Don't even remind me of Lift and her "awesomeness". In contrast, Kaladin has to almost kill himself for every step of advancement as a KR? Maybe it has been deliberately done to highlight the social bridge and how difficult it is for an Alethi darkeyes to rise in that society, but it poses a weighty issue. 

 

It doesn't seem like there will be more Windrunners at all in the series, which, on one hand, is a shame. I for one want to see a squadron of them against a bunch of Thunderclasts. On the other hand, there is going to be at least one other person with Windrunner-like abilities, owing to the Honorblade, which strikes me as very unfair. I found it annoying in Mistborn when Elend becomes an instant Mistborn after Vin had to fight her way there. I suspect I'll start hating this series as well if another Lighteyes or bridgeman took up the mantle of Windrunner and got easily to Kaladin's level. 

Hmm. Interesting. Fortunately, as stated in some WoB that I can't remember, a Windrunner is only as strong as his squires. Given the fact that several Bridge Four members (including the Lopen) glowing with Stormlight. Possible squires? 

Definitely.

[FidesFortuna]

So... I wouldn't presume to tell someone like Brandon Sanderson how to write a book better...seeing as I struggle with coherent messages on these boards lol.

However! One small complaint...Syl's ability to change into any weapon felt too over powered and too much. It took away from all the skill Kaladin has worked on cultivating and the battle became to frenetic. Also.... This is so small and petty. But Syl had been predisposed to a certain type of speech and when she said "stretch out thy hand" the thy just came out as disingenuous.

That's trying to come up with something though. The scene where Kaladin jumps in and helps Adolin is so amazing to read. This is an awesome series

[thekingofpillowland]

I totally agree with what maxal posted. Yes, the characters have done many stupid or unreasonable things, but you know what? Those are part of their character flaws, their personalities. Having characters sometimes make bad decisions is a part of good writing. If you don't do that, you get a Mary Sue.

As I've seen a lot of complaining about Renarin keeping his shards, I want to point out that he is a young person who is very handicapped (though the scale of how handicapped he actually is, compared to how handicapped he feels that he is, could be debated) and as a young person who also has medical conditions (type 1 diabetes, colour-blindness and mild dyspraxia), I found his motivations quite justified. He has felt completely useless for most of his life, and desperately wants to be like his big brother and father (a young boy's biggest role-models!), and when Dalinar basically hands him the key to his dream isn't it understandable that he wouldn't be incredibly eager to give up the chance to beat his disabilities?

Dalinar giving Renarin shards is also understandable. Firstly, Dalinar is a father who has seen his son hope and wish to be able to be a soldier, and he has seen his son struggle with illness, which must be painful. Any dad would wish for a chance to help their child overcome challenges like those.

Secondly, Renarin is someone that Dalinar can trust totally, he knows that Renarin would never ever betray him or purposefully let him down, and Renarin's desire to be useful only tells Dalinar that he will work hard.

Thirdly, Dalinar is not the most intelligent man. Sure, he is a great general and soldier, but we see him get manipulated and fall for ploys all the time. He doesn't always make the best choices possible.

But I will get on with what I personally did not like.

Firstly, Renarin's reveal as KR just seemed badly handled to me. On my first read through, it seemed to come out of nowhere, like "Hey guys, I'm a radiant, too!" On my second, I did notice the hints and thought that it was well foreshadowed, but the timing seemed all wrong. Personally, I think that it would have been better for him to reveal the he was KR partway through book 3, after he has had time to see what the other KR's have been able to do, and gain some development from trying to decide if he could be equal to the others.

Secondly, Jasnah. I kind of wish that she had stayed dead. Don't get me wrong, I think Jasnah is an excellent character, but I feel like having her come back will just mean that she occupies a lot of Shallan's role in the future plot. I think that Shallan has a lot more room for character growth and plot-importance without Jasnah.

Apart from all that, I totally think that Amaram be more of a grey-area character, rather than a straight villain would have been cooler. An end-justifies-the-means guy would have been better in my opinion.

[Jondesu]

Secondly, Jasnah. I kind of wish that she had stayed dead. Don't get me wrong, I think Jasnah is an excellent character, but I feel like having her come back will just mean that she occupies a lot of Shallan's role in the future plot. I think that Shallan has a lot more room for character growth and plot-importance without Jasnah.

 

I agree with much of what you said, but just wanted to speak to this.  Not only will Jasnah be in an unusual situation of finding that others have invalidated or already discovered the knowledge she usually is the first to share, but she's going to arrive to find that Shallan has partially outgrown her already.  I suspect we'll find that while Shallan and Jasnah are going to continue to interact, much of their relationship will change dramatically due to Shallan's growth in her time without Jasnah, and that's going to create a lot of very good storyline for both of their characters, and possibly for others (including Adolin).  I don't mind at all having her brought back, especially since we knew she was a Radiant-to-be, and it should be nearly impossible to kill them by ordinary means.  It seemed really cheap to have her killed by a bunch of thugs in the first place, to me, and I was really glad when my suspicions were confirmed.

 

jW

[Cortez]

I don't agree that it was cheap to have Jasnah appear to be killed. I agree that Jasnah needed to be taken out of the story in order for Shallan to grow into her own character (rather than just Jasnah v2.0), however I also feel that Shallan needed to believe that Jasnah was dead in order to make that growth. She needed to feel that she was mankind's only hope, that only she could stop the Voidbringers and find Urithiru. For her there was no one else to help her or who knows the truth. This forces her to grow as a character such as learning from Tyn or investigating the Ghostbloods in order to find out what they know. I don't feel Shallan would have been forced to do any of this without believing that Jasnah was dead. Just consider the completely different reaction and amount of help that Shallan would have received from Navani if she hadn't just told her that her daughter was dead and instead that they'd merely been separated. Her relationship with Adolin would have begun differently, she'd have been staying in the Kholin warcamp and not with Sebarial and instead of investigating the Ghostbloods and Urithiru, she'd have spent the entire book waiting for Jasnah to show up and help her.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Cortez

[Jondesu]

Oh, I don't think it was cheap to have her appear to be killed.  It would have felt cheap if she were actually killed by simple thugs.  :-)  I fully agree with everything you said.

 

jW

[02ranger]

thekingofpillowland

 

Firstly, Renarin's reveal as KR just seemed badly handled to me. On my first read through, it seemed to come out of nowhere, like "Hey guys, I'm a radiant, too!" On my second, I did notice the hints and thought that it was well foreshadowed, but the timing seemed all wrong. Personally, I think that it would have been better for him to reveal the he was KR partway through book 3, after he has had time to see what the other KR's have been able to do, and gain some development from trying to decide if he could be equal to the others.

 

 

 

 

I agree that Renarin's reveal was kinda poor. I didn't even realize he was the one writing the countdown until I saw it posted online after I finished the book. I went back and reread his reveal and still don't get it. I know he's the one that wrote it, but I NEVER would have gotten that on my own.

As for what I dislike, people have already mentioned it. It just seems like Kaladin wallows in guilt too long. I understand why he feels guilty, but it seems like he spends 90% of his time either beating himself up for stuff he couldn't help or second-guessing himself. It was a little much at times.

 

Edit: The quote system went nuts on me.......

Edited September 3, 2015 by 02ranger

[02ranger]

So... I wouldn't presume to tell someone like Brandon Sanderson how to write a book better...seeing as I struggle with coherent messages on these boards lol.

However! One small complaint...Syl's ability to change into any weapon felt too over powered and too much. It took away from all the skill Kaladin has worked on cultivating and the battle became to frenetic. Also.... This is so small and petty. But Syl had been predisposed to a certain type of speech and when she said "stretch out thy hand" the thy just came out as disingenuous.

That's trying to come up with something though. The scene where Kaladin jumps in and helps Adolin is so amazing to read. This is an awesome series

OK so IDK what happened, I thought I quoted you and thekingofpillowland but it completely deleted my response to you. Anyway, my head-canon for Syl's phrasing there is that since the Stormfather was watching at the time, maybe she spoke differently to impress him or because that's how they talk to each other at times. I know there's not really evidence for it, but that was the best I could come up with.

[Jondesu]

 

I agree that Renarin's reveal was kinda poor. I didn't even realize he was the one writing the countdown until I saw it posted online after I finished the book. I went back and reread his reveal and still don't get it. I know he's the one that wrote it, but I NEVER would have gotten that on my own.

 

Wait, what?  I didn't get that at all, first time I've seen it mentioned…

 

jW

[maxal]

Wait, what?  I didn't get that at all, first time I've seen it mentioned…

 

jW

 

 Most people didn't get that except perhaps those who watched Renarin closely. Don't feel bad about it.

[02ranger]

Wait, what?  I didn't get that at all, first time I've seen it mentioned…

 

jW

I don't think it was here that I saw it either. I'm sure it was discussed when WoR came out, but I think I saw it on reddit. I don't think there was really enough that pointed to Renarin for most people to catch it. From what I read, the only evidence was the fact that he started scribbling stuff in the Oathgate and that was supposed to indicate he'd been writing it all along. There may have been more that the person I saw post it didn't catch, though. I'm about to start on WoR for my first reread, so I'm gonna watch Renarin a lot closer.

[DreamEternal]

I don't think it was here that I saw it either. I'm sure it was discussed when WoR came out, but I think I saw it on reddit. I don't think there was really enough that pointed to Renarin for most people to catch it. From what I read, the only evidence was the fact that he started scribbling stuff in the Oathgate and that was supposed to indicate he'd been writing it all along. There may have been more that the person I saw post it didn't catch, though. I'm about to start on WoR for my first reread, so I'm gonna watch Renarin a lot closer.

He was scribing numbers. All zeroes. After asking the almighty why he was cursed with seeing the future itself. And throught the book he was one of the characters that seemed more worried about the little time they had. He saw the everstorm would blow in the wrong direction just a little before pattern said the same thing in a clearer way.

I am surprised so many people didn't notice it.

[02ranger]

He was scribing numbers. All zeroes. After asking the almighty why he was cursed with seeing the future itself. And throught the book he was one of the characters that seemed more worried about the little time they had. He saw the everstorm would blow in the wrong direction just a little before pattern said the same thing in a clearer way.

I am surprised so many people didn't notice it.

I guess I just didn't get the connection with the writing on the walls, though. I'm not sure why it didn't click, but like I said, I'm gonna watch Renarin more closely on this reading and I'm sure I'll catch things I missed the first time around. I think maybe part of why I missed so much of Renarin's plot in WoR is because he was pretty minor in WoK and I guess I expected him to remain that way.

[maxal]

He was scribing numbers. All zeroes. After asking the almighty why he was cursed with seeing the future itself. And throught the book he was one of the characters that seemed more worried about the little time they had. He saw the everstorm would blow in the wrong direction just a little before pattern said the same thing in a clearer way.

I am surprised so many people didn't notice it.

 

Being one of "most people", I can probably offer an explanation. For "most people", Renarin is a very minor character whose role into the story is limited. "Most people" did not pay much notice to him, hence "most people" failed to notice the clues "other people" think were obvious.

 

It probably is why many people agree his "reveal" came out of nowhere as these people are likely to be those who didn't thought much of Renarin while reading the book. On a second reread, once you know what to look for, the clues are more obvious. However, I must admit I did pay attention to Renarin in the Oathgate scene as I was hoping he would contribute. When he went crazy and started scribbling zeros, call my thick, but I did not make the connection. Once I read the analysis, I could agree it made sense, but on my first read, it pass way above my head.

 

I also do not recall him feeling an unease in front of the numbers... In fact, I think he was only present once when they appeared. I should probably go and reread this scene. However, I do remember Adolin being mightily nervous in front of the same numbers.

[Moogle]

Firstly, Renarin's reveal as KR just seemed badly handled to me. On my first read through, it seemed to come out of nowhere, like "Hey guys, I'm a radiant, too!" On my second, I did notice the hints and thought that it was well foreshadowed, but the timing seemed all wrong. Personally, I think that it would have been better for him to reveal the he was KR partway through book 3, after he has had time to see what the other KR's have been able to do, and gain some development from trying to decide if he could be equal to the others.

 

I like this idea a lot! Showing Renarin at the end, writing the numbers, claiming he was cursed with seeing the future... we'd be having so many great theories about Voidbinding if we didn't know if he was a Radiant. You'd want to remove some of the foreshadowing (like hating his Shards), but I would really really like this change. I did not like the Renarin reveal. I like him as a Radiant, but his reveal felt clumsy and I completely did not care.

[DreamEternal]

I also do not recall him feeling an unease in front of the numbers... In fact, I think he was only present once when they appeared. I should probably go and reread this scene. However, I do remember Adolin being mightily nervous in front of the same numbers.

He was not nervous in front of the numbers, but in the Adolin chapter where he first meets Eshonai(26, The Feather), when he goes back and Renarin is still sitting throught the shock of having summoned his blade, Adolin speaks briefily to him and Renarin is left muttering "Need to be ready for the coming storm. So little time". From the normaly quiet Renarin, that seems pretty intense and creepy. He was not openly nervous about the numbers themselves, but he seemed to be terrified about what they predict.

Edited September 4, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[SweetLift]

It will probably come up in a future book, but I would like to know what happened with the parshendi that escaped changing into storm form (or being murdered).

I agree about Renard being a little shallow, but he did serve a purpose in revealing the character of his father and brother as well as Sadias (calling him unless). Also he came up with the idea to try to prove the visions were true.

I didn't like that the shoemaker was killed (or so it would seem) but I suppose that was to introduce us to how cold blooded 'Darkness' is.

[maxal]

He was not nervous in front of the numbers, but in the Adolin chapter where he first meets Eshonai(26, The Feather), when he goes back and Renarin is still sitting throught the shock of having summoned his blade, Adolin speaks briefily to him and Renarin is left muttering "Need to be ready for the coming storm. So little time". From the normaly quiet Renarin, that seems pretty intense and creepy. He was bot openly nervous about the numbers themselves, but he seemed to be terrified about what they predict.

 

Oh good point. I had forgotten about this scene. Thanks for reminding me. I was thinking of the scene where they first found the sign and I did not recall Renarin having had any particular reaction. I remember now. He wanted to be sure he was ready, though what he saw exactly is unsure.

 

Crack-pot theory here... It has been going in and out of my mind for a while now... We know the Lightweavers do not swear oaths, they tell truths about themselves. I has always struck me as strange only one order would behave differently. I have thus assumed there would be others and, somehow, Truthwatchers sprout to my mind. They seem as a weird bunch, so it fits. What if, to progress, they don't have to say oaths, but to acknowledge 4 visions? What if the visions are what makes Renarin progress in his Radianhood?

 

My other guess is he needs to say truth, but not about himself, about the exterior world, but it is not as good.

 

 

I like this idea a lot! Showing Renarin at the end, writing the numbers, claiming he was cursed with seeing the future... we'd be having so many great theories about Voidbinding if we didn't know if he was a Radiant. You'd want to remove some of the foreshadowing (like hating his Shards), but I would really really like this change. I did not like the Renarin reveal. I like him as a Radiant, but his reveal felt clumsy and I completely did not care.

 

I agree it is an interesting idea kingofpillow brought up. I do agree Renarin's reveal fells flat and my reaction was: "Another one???" I felt it was too much, too soon. I supposed there will be a point to Renarin's story, eventually.

[DreamEternal]

Oh good point. I had forgotten about this scene. Thanks for reminding me. I was thinking of the scene where they first found the sign and I did not recall Renarin having had any particular reaction. I remember now. He wanted to be sure he was ready, though what he saw exactly is unsure.

Crack-pot theory here... It has been going in and out of my mind for a while now... We know the Lightweavers do not swear oaths, they tell truths about themselves. I has always struck me as strange only one order would behave differently. I have thus assumed there would be others and, somehow, Truthwatchers sprout to my mind. They seem as a weird bunch, so it fits. What if, to progress, they don't have to say oaths, but to acknowledge 4 visions? What if the visions are what makes Renarin progress in his Radianhood?

My other guess is he needs to say truth, but not about himself, about the exterior world, but it is not as good.

The truthwatchers are said to be one of the most secretive orders. I believe there is a pragmatic aspect to it.

If we consider true the theory that all "future sight" in the cosmere is actualy mathematical predictions done with temporary nigh onmiscience, like a powered up diagram, then it makes sense to withold information until it is most useful, since any new element added to the system makes predictions made before it was know more likely to fall apart.

However, if the only people with the knowledge have a strong natural predisposition to keep it to themselves, then they risk being uselessly fatalistic, since their prophecies always come true because they decided it was better to endure them than risking change.

This way, the progression of the order would relate to keeping this balance: holding on to secrets and staying in the shadows, but revealing the truth and stepping into the spotlight when it is needed.

This means their progression depends on first keeping something hidden and holding on to it long enough before revealing it, much like the lies lightweavers must tell themselves in order to later destroy them, except in relation to other people.

This also applies in a more personal scale, with stepping into the light or staying in the shadows. I believe it will be an as important part of Renarin's journey to stop risking himself uselessly for his family as it will be to learn to be more open about his actions.

The interplay of light and shadows, revelation and occultation, also enhaces the esoteric air of the order and works as a powerful imagery, but on the same hand enforces the isolation of the truthwatchers, because their preference for watching over acting, their extreme discretion and their openly mysterious attitude make them seem suspicious, and when they come forward with information that changes everything, without saying why they witheld it for so long, it comes as if they were manipulating everything like shadowy puppetmasters, when those who are more likely to be the ones manipulating people do so under a mask of normalcy.

Edited September 4, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[galendo]

I could nitpick a bunch of things that I'd have done differently, but if I were to pick a few big ones:

 

1) Ditch the regular flashback sequences -- I find that the flashbacks are rather boring when compared to the main story, and they often don't even answer the questions I want answered.  Like, the one question I really wanted answered from Shallan's sequence was what she did to become a Radiant, and after reading her entire sequence, I still don't have any idea.  The fact that only one character gets sequences each book means there's no hope for getting that scene in the future, either.  The idea of each character getting a book of flashbacks seems flawed.

2) Don't force certain character interactions -- Other people have mentioned Kaladin/Moash interactions already on this thread, but I find the Shallan/Kaladin interactions to be the worst offenders, entirely forced and unbelievable.  Almost every scene where they're together seems to me forced and unnatural, with characters holding the idiot ball left and right.  It's really annoying.

3) Make more Radiants behave honorably -- This kind of bugs me; by my count there are exactly two honorable characters in Stormlight Archives that we know about, Kaladin and Dalinar.  Three if you count Szeth and, I guess, four if you count Lift.  I don't expect a lot of characters to be honorable -- part of the setting is that most people aren't, largely due to Odium's influence -- but it seems that the Radiants at least should be.  While Kaladin and Dalinar walk the walk, Shallan has done a total of two honorable things by my count (go find the Oathgates and obtain pardon for the deserters) and Jasnah one (refuse to claim a devotion that she didn't believe in).  When weighted against all the dishonorable things they seem to get away with without losing their spren, it seems pretty unfair.

 

I could gripe about more things that I'd change, most of which involve changing Shallan's character drastically (it's not a coincidence that she features prominantly in all three of my complaints above).  In fact, just because I can:

 

4) Make Shallan a better character -- I won't go into too much detail, other than what I've mentioned above, but I consider her easily the least compelling main character in SA so far.  I won't go so far as to say that the story would be better without her, but the way the plot twists and twists just to give Shallan a prominant role is incredibly annoying.  Jasnah "dies" so that Shallan can be alone to do her stuff.  Kaladin earns his place in a Highprince's household, while Shallan is just given hers for no good reason.  It's pretty darn frustrating.

[thekingofpillowland]

3) Make more Radiants behave honorably -- This kind of bugs me; by my count there are exactly two honorable characters in Stormlight Archives that we know about, Kaladin and Dalinar.  Three if you count Szeth and, I guess, four if you count Lift.  I don't expect a lot of characters to be honorable -- part of the setting is that most people aren't, largely due to Odium's influence -- but it seems that the Radiants at least should be.  While Kaladin and Dalinar walk the walk, Shallan has done a total of two honorable things by my count (go find the Oathgates and obtain pardon for the deserters) and Jasnah one (refuse to claim a devotion that she didn't believe in).  When weighted against all the dishonorable things they seem to get away with without losing their spren, it seems pretty unfair.

First off, depending on how you want to define acting "honourably", there are more honourable characters than just Kaladin, Dalinar, and possibly Szeth or Lift. Adolin, for example is very honourable even if he chafes at some of the restrictions and winds up murdering Sadeas. Renarin is also honourable.

But aside from that, honour is hard to pin down because it more or less comes down to a moral code, and with all the different Rosharan cultures, you are going to get people that value very different morals and ideals than others, so honour is hard to really define. The Shin would call farming honourable, while the Alethi would say the same for warriors, for example.

And as for Radiants acting honourable, I will point out that Radiants don't necessarily have to act honourable, they just have to act within the confines of their oaths. Kaladin, has to protect people at all costs (which he does), Skybreakers have to follow laws, while Lightweavers don't really have much in the way of a moral code.

After all, the KR's purpose was to fight Odium and protect humanity, not to be nice people.

Plus, I will refute your claims that Shallan and Jasnahhave done a total of three honourable things, as they have both tried to figure out how to save the entire world, for Kalak's sake.

The Radiants are associated with Honour (the Almighty) but they don't have to BE honourable as other people see it, they just have to follow the moral codes dictated by their spren/their Radiant orders.

[galendo]

First off, depending on how you want to define acting "honourably", there are more honourable characters than just Kaladin, Dalinar, and possibly Szeth or Lift. Adolin, for example is very honourable even if he chafes at some of the restrictions and winds up murdering Sadeas. Renarin is also honourable.

But aside from that, honour is hard to pin down because it more or less comes down to a moral code, and with all the different Rosharan cultures, you are going to get people that value very different morals and ideals than others, so honour is hard to really define. The Shin would call farming honourable, while the Alethi would say the same for warriors, for example.

And as for Radiants acting honourable, I will point out that Radiants don't necessarily have to act honourable, they just have to act within the confines of their oaths. Kaladin, has to protect people at all costs (which he does), Skybreakers have to follow laws, while Lightweavers don't really have much in the way of a moral code.

After all, the KR's purpose was to fight Odium and protect humanity, not to be nice people.

Plus, I will refute your claims that Shallan and Jasnahhave done a total of three honourable things, as they have both tried to figure out how to save the entire world, for Kalak's sake.

The Radiants are associated with Honour (the Almighty) but they don't have to BE honourable as other people see it, they just have to follow the moral codes dictated by their spren/their Radiant orders.

No offence, but I think we have a difference of opinions here.  Or something.  To answer your objections in roughly the order they appeared:

 

Under no moral code that I can think of could Adolin's killing of Sadeas be considered an honorable action.  Expedient, sure.  Good even.  But never honorable.  As far as Renarin goes, I don't think we've seen enough of him to make any decisions either way.  I don't recall seeing him do either an honorable or a dishonorable action.  He's an unknown at this point, as far as I can recall.

 

Can a profession itself be honorable?  I don't think so.  One might go into, say, a poorly paid profession for honorable reasons, but I don't know that the profession itself could be considered honorable.  Nor do I think that a person is automatically honorable just because they're a member of said profession.

 

I get that, according to the way the story's been set up, the Radiants don't actually have to be honorable.  But the point of this thread is to talk about what things we'd change if we could, and this has always kind of bugged me.  I originally thought, when I was reading about the ten orders and all that stuff, that the different orders would be for different types of honor.  Like one would be for keeping your word, another for following the law, another for always fighting a fair fight, another for never going behind someone's back, etc.  And that seemed kind of cool, because honor is a tricky thing to pin down and open to at least some interpretation.  But all of the orders were supposed to follow the first Ideal, and I'm just not seeing it from Jasnah or Shallan (or Adolin or Szeth, though they're not Radiants and so are somewhat outside the scope of this discussion).  If I were writing the story, I'd have made the Radiants need to be more honorable to keep their powers.  It seems like most of them get off lightly.

 

Finally, Shallan's intent to save the world was basically what I was referring to when I mentioned her going to find the Oathgates -- that's exactly why she went to find them, because she thought they were important in stopping a catastrophe.  Like I said, that's one of the two honorable things she's done.

[kaellok]

I get that, according to the way the story's been set up, the Radiants don't actually have to be honorable.  But the point of this thread is to talk about what things we'd change if we could, and this has always kind of bugged me.  I originally thought, when I was reading about the ten orders and all that stuff, that the different orders would be for different types of honor.  Like one would be for keeping your word, another for following the law, another for always fighting a fair fight, another for never going behind someone's back, etc.  And that seemed kind of cool, because honor is a tricky thing to pin down and open to at least some interpretation.  But all of the orders were supposed to follow the first Ideal, and I'm just not seeing it from Jasnah or Shallan (or Adolin or Szeth, though they're not Radiants and so are somewhat outside the scope of this discussion).  If I were writing the story, I'd have made the Radiants need to be more honorable to keep their powers.  It seems like most of them get off lightly.

 

Finally, Shallan's intent to save the world was basically what I was referring to when I mentioned her going to find the Oathgates -- that's exactly why she went to find them, because she thought they were important in stopping a catastrophe.  Like I said, that's one of the two honorable things she's done.

 

Edit: Long post.  Some of it sounds angry/mean.  Not meant that way.  All of the questions I ask are specific points that happen within the books, and I think that reasonable people could consider them all to be honorable.  Even the ones that directly contradict each other.

 

So, since you are having a problem with characters not acting honorably, maybe you should define what you mean?

 

Is it honorable to lie to people?  Is it honorable to always be completely forthright and 100% honest, even about things that wouldn't have been brought up or discussed in conversation otherwise?  Is it honorable to defend the weak?  Is it honorable to put yourself in a position of weakness so that those who enjoy abusing their strength will attack you--and you then defend yourself?

 

Is the use of an assassin dishonorable?  What if it's to kill someone acting within the confines of an immoral law?  ie, is it moral to kill/murder a mass murderer without a trial, because there was no law saying that murder/mass murder is wrong?  Is blind obedience to the law actually honorable?  Is it honorable to execute someone for a crime done decades ago, when they had no clear knowledge of what they were doing ahead of time, and spent the years making up for it?

 

Since you provide no examples of what is dishonorable, or what is honorable either really, I'm assuming you think that Shallan is super-dishonorable because of her lies (as is quite common.)  Would you find Army scouts, using stealth and deception to spy upon the enemy, to be dishonorable?  If not, what is the difference between those kinds of deceptions and the lies that Shallan tells?  Do you really think that she believes herself in safe, friendly territory when she has freshly arrived in a place where literally no one knows her, and weren't even expecting her--after having been attacked by an assassin that she trusted only a short time ago?  Further, at what point does she ever break her word once given?  At all?  Sure, she lies to others about who she is, her goals, etc.--but when she says she'll do something, by storms she does it.  How in Harmony's name is that not honorable?  And she keeps to that in multiple times--far more than the "two" you give her.

 

Is it honorable to live?  Is it honorable to find that which is beautiful even in a world filled with hatred and brutality and violence?

 

Is it honorable to see yourself truly, as you are?  Dalinar doesn't, Kaladin won't.  Is it worse to lie to yourself, or to others?

 

Each Order of Radiants does view honor differently.  Entirely differently.  But not just differently than each other, but apparently also differently than you yourself see it.  That doesn't mean they are wrong; nor does it mean you are wrong.  

 

In what ways do Jasnah and Shallan not live up to the First Ideal?  Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination.  I'm honestly curious about this, because we apparently read the same books and saw drastically different characters.  Shallan could have slaughtered everyone in Amaram's camp no problem; she could have cut him down, no problem, when she found out that he has her brother's blade (and thus, believes that Amaram killer her brother Heleran.)  A dishonorable person certainly would have.  Someone who didn't follow the First Ideal would have, too.  Jasnah has made of herself a giant freaking target because she knows she can probably live through anything they throw at her, it will cause them to expend resources needlessly, and will aid in the work she finds necessary.  How is that not living up to the First Ideal?  (I'm meaning the assassins like Kabsal and his ilk, not the alleyway.)  They don't go hunting down their enemies to kill them, but instead destroy them after they have revealed themselves to all.  How is that not the First Ideal?  

 

Also, keep in mind, it is an Ideal for a reason--rather than an oath or a promise or guarantee.  Even when you put life first, sometimes death has to happen.  Look at Kaladin, and the climax of WoK.  Was it honorable for him to go back and save Dalinar and his army?  Was it honorable to slaughter the parshmen that fought fairly?  Can an action be both honorable and dishonorable at the same time?  With this insight, do the actions of all of the characters change for you at all?

 

WoR is a powerful novel, and I love it.  There's a whole lot that I wish had been done differently (see my previous post), but I simply don't see a lack of honor from any of the main characters (except for Kaladin's needless wish to assassinate the person he swore to protect.  That was dishonorable as all get-out).  You want to see the real dishonorable ones?  Look to Amaram and Sadeas.  Even Mr T, who is conducting murder on a global scale, is acting honorably in his own fashion.  To act with honor, for me, is to put others above your own self.  But, for real--Amaram plays a game of putting others above himself, but it's just a lie.  Sadeas, too, is entirely selfish.  

 

Of course, I'm sure your own definition is quite a bit different than mine.  And that's okay.  But I'd still love to hear what it is.

Edited September 5, 2015 by kaellok