LG113: Day 1: Freedom of Speech

[Ink and Embers Any pronouns]

Question for the GMs: if you start the night with one kind of Loyalty (eg Neutral) then have your Loyalty manipulated so it changes type before your action, is it still the action you initially submitted that happens?

Apologies if this has been answered already

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Asriel said:

Also, what?

Fun

8 minutes ago, Ink and Embers said:

This is my third SE game; I played in the AG as a Villager and in an MR as Elim before this. 

If you got elim twice in three games I'mma crash out

4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

(Grumble grumble darn kids need to learn to use ctrl f)

Hey I do use ctrl f!

Just not for this

Okay yeah I see that, don't know if it would merit a village read in my book though seems like low hanging fruit

2 minutes ago, Asriel said:

Hoid has made some excellent points in Myst's favor, so I'm changing my vote.

I... have? *blinks rapidly*

2 minutes ago, Asriel said:

Unless someone can give me an actually viable elim candidate, I'm going for coco.pudding/Essyn. Her character is a ghostblood and is thus automatically suspicious.

If you liked my points about Myst, then what do you think of my read on Mint?

[Asriel He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

I... have? *blinks rapidly*

If you liked my points about Myst, then what do you think of my read on Mint?

You made decent points, and I was already unsure. Currently, I think either you and Myst are both elims or are both villagers - you've backed each other up too much.
Mint - idk. Too much RP to give me a clear read, so I just went with someone nobody had voted for yet. That said, my argument for voting out Myst wasn't very convincing either, so that's suspicious.

Edit: Frankly, at this point there's not enough evidence to really have a concrete idea about anyone, and there's a good portion of newbies (including myself) who could be throwing off reads. 
So I don't really want to be responsible for voting someone out.

Edited 9 hours ago by Asriel

[The Unknown Character he/him]

1 hour ago, Mystfall said:

Currently wanting to give Hoid a clear for now(don’t have a read just yet, but his role is most likely useful, especially since he had a hand in picking it, and I’d like to not take that away unless I feel confident)

If someone is going to Depo then I’m going to also stay away from Twin as well. I’d like to see the loyalty he started at. After that I’ve got a current gut v!read on Illwei.

I like what Hoid just posted-further reason to not vote him. Obviously taking out Whimsy, Fox and Asriel. It’s still a pretty big pool of people.

I think Mint

I am suspicious of the fact that I have 4 votes already, and I don’t like this, especially considering what Wahr said immediately afterwards. If the reasoning is that I would go for Mavset, then Hoid falls under the same category, and you’ve said nothing about him. If it’s that you don’t like that I suggested the absence of a conversion, the conversion is role-dependent, if the person with the role dies before they convert anyone then there isn’t a conversion. Balancing that IMO is rather delicate considering one exe would essentially take out 2 of the Elims in one go(more if you consider how 1 conversion = 2 NKs)

This is a good enough reason for me, let's not kill Myst c1 two games in a row

Mint

55 minutes ago, Illwei said:

@Asriel

I haven't yet, as you see. 

@The Unknown Character

General thoughts on the setup and best play as of now? You most likely have the best grasp of the rules, or at least you're implying as such. 

In response of sorts to Hoid- 

Again, I don't think extra actions are needed to purely increase loyalty at this moment. There are obviously some roles that benefit from having a negative Loyalty number. 

 - Bonded can track a player, and in doing so potentially increase their own Loyalty.
 - Minister of Trade can increase another player's loyalty by 2, and in doing so potentially increase their own Loyalty. 
 - Smuggler can potentially increase a player's loyalty, while basically performing a protect action it seems. 

While I'm on the topic i might as well talk about roles that I don't think benefit at all from having negative loyalty. 

 - Counselor: you don't have another action, so...increase your loyalty. 
 - Secretary: if you are in the negatives then you can learn a loyalty, but if you move up (max 2 turns) you can perform an Alignment check. 
 - Royal Family: You can use your negative ability even if you are at neutral Loyalty. While this role is, as I said before, Pretty Anti-Village in general - with lowering a loyalty by 4, if you were to need to use it you can do so at neutral. 
 - Naval Officer: This may be controversial, but a thug like this will not impact the game much from how I see it. You know yourself so you know if you are likely to die to a degree. Most likely it is not a big difference, and if you're in the high negatives (er-low?), then you will be - sorry to say it - more use to the village dead than alive, if you are adding too much negative loyalty. 
 - Banker: While you can increase loyalty to an extent when you are negative, it's not useful enough to justify being in a neg Loyalty. Meanwhile - Positive loyalty allows you to not just soothe votes (which I don't think it particularly useful in many cases from a village side), but it has those people who's vote you took vote with you for Deposition, which is very useful especially if there are people known or suspected to be in the negatives. 

Rebsk truly goes either way, I believe their Loyalty will be swinging all over the place throughout, lol. 
 

@Jo and the Bush 
The kill no longer takes an action slot, but is it still counted as an action by the roles that are able to track/watch/redirect? 

I agree with a lot of this except the Bonded. Bonded shouldn't be negative, it's a very slight power boost, and they're most powerful at neutral anyways. If I were Bonded, I'd just use my ability and let the pluses and minuses from that do the rest

Smuggler should definitely be at 0 or less loyalty imo.

Other than that, everyone should probably try to be at 2+ imo. 3 ideally.

41 minutes ago, Archer said:

VC:

Mint (1): Myst 

Myst (30000): Asriel, Mat, Mint

Araris (1): Hoid

Asriel (1): Illwei

Illwei (1): Grub

 

Taking the generic action to increase your own loyalty is best done at Night, after Day effects have resolved eg. Tie resets your loyalty to zero. 

This is true 

30 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I would like everyone to take into account that roles are- Well TUC can correct me if he thinks otherwise, but. 

The distro in a game is never truly random, or at least it shouldn't be, in 99% of moderately balanced games. While it's random who gets what, it is most likely not random how many of each role is in the game, and what alignment they end up on. Some roles are incredibly swingy to have on the Elim side, such as Minister, or Royal Family.

If these roles ended up on the Elim's side and no strong power on the Village side, then that would likely be thrown out. 

I'm not familiar with Jo's GMing, but in general the idea that all roles are randed and then we play the game right away is /likely/ false

I've co-GMed with Jo and role presence and quantity is definitely not random.

When we co-GMed together (it was Tyrian and the AG, so theoretically different from this, but I doubt it), we made a list of possible distros with different amounts of each role and alignment. Roles were attached to alignments, only players were randomized. Every role being present is probably a reasonable assumption (not including a role you made is like not taking your child on the family vacation). 

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

14 minutes ago, Ink and Embers said:

if you start the night with one kind of Loyalty (eg Neutral) then have your Loyalty manipulated so it changes type before your action, is it still the action you initially submitted that happens?

It will still be the action you submitted originally yes.

Basically, pretend that your Loyalty cannot change until the very end of the turn. Almost everything happens before any loyalty changes. The only things that happen after Loyalty changes are the Secretary learning what Loyalty their target has if they took that action, and the Deposition votes happening.

Edited 9 hours ago by Jo and the Bush

[TwinStorm He/Him]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Character said:

This is a good enough reason for me, let's not kill Myst c1 two games in a row

Mint

I agree with a lot of this except the Bonded. Bonded shouldn't be negative, it's a very slight power boost, and they're most powerful at neutral anyways. If I were Bonded, I'd just use my ability and let the pluses and minuses from that do the rest

Smuggler should definitely be at 0 or less loyalty imo.

Other than that, everyone should probably try to be at 2+ imo. 3 ideally.

This is true 

I've co-GMed with Jo and role presence and quantity is definitely not random.

When we co-GMed together (it was Tyrian and the AG, so theoretically different from this, but I doubt it), we made a list of possible distros with different amounts of each role and alignment. Roles were attached to alignments, only players were randomized. Every role being present is probably a reasonable assumption (not including a role you made is like not taking your child on the family vacation). 

thats the same way I've done distros in the past, so I think theres a good chance we can use deduction to make some elim role claims

from the briefest glance at the roles 

assuming 4 elims

1 Mavset-Im (pretty much given atp)

1 Royal Family (im assuming this would have to balance out with a v/royal family)

1 Banker?? (idk abt this one, seems like it would pair well with the Mavset-Im)

and prolly a vanilla

plus a highguard thrown up there somewhere, I dont think it makes sense for an entirely village doc and we're being way too optimistic to assume theres not

these are just my first random jumbled thoughts lol idk anything honestly

[Ink and Embers Any pronouns]

5 minutes ago, Jo and the Bush said:

It will still be the action you submitted originally yes.

Basically, pretend that your Loyalty cannot change until the very end of the turn. Almost everything happens before any loyalty changes. The only things that happen after Loyalty changes are the Secretary learning what Loyalty their target has if they took that action, and the Deposition votes happening.

Thank you very much!!!

[Mystfall He/Him]

1 minute ago, TwinStorm said:

thats the same way I've done distros in the past, so I think theres a good chance we can use deduction to make some elim role claims

from the briefest glance at the roles 

assuming 4 elims

1 Mavset-Im (pretty much given atp)

1 Royal Family (im assuming this would have to balance out with a v/royal family)

1 Banker?? (idk abt this one, seems like it would pair well with the Mavset-Im)

and prolly a vanilla

plus a highguard thrown up there somewhere, I dont think it makes sense for an entirely village doc and we're being way too optimistic to assume theres not

these are just my first random jumbled thoughts lol idk anything honestly

Okay but like. 4 Elims with a Mavset is worse than just 5 Elims. After conversion there’s 5, and before conversion it’s tied to a specific player who if dies takes out 2 Elims instead of 1. 

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Maybe its trolling/biased to admit this, but one of the Distros I spent a long time trying to balance was 3 Elims. A Mavset-im/Highguard, a Royal/Highguard, and a Banker/Highguard. I decided it was too swingy, no matter what I gave or denied the village.

 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

17 minutes ago, Asriel said:

You made decent points, and I was already unsure. Currently, I think either you and Myst are both elims or are both villagers - you've backed each other up too much.
Mint - idk. Too much RP to give me a clear read, so I just went with someone nobody had voted for yet. That said, my argument for voting out Myst wasn't very convincing either, so that's suspicious.

Edit: Frankly, at this point there's not enough evidence to really have a concrete idea about anyone, and there's a good portion of newbies (including myself) who could be throwing off reads. 
So I don't really want to be responsible for voting someone out.

Hmm

I'd say trust yourself a little more. Be more confident in your gut. We've all been responsible for voting the wrong people out. I'd rather ride or die an elim than waver and do nothing because I'm indecisive

3 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

Okay but like. 4 Elims with a Mavset is worse than just 5 Elims. After conversion there’s 5, and before conversion it’s tied to a specific player who if dies takes out 2 Elims instead of 1. 

I'm not sure what you're saying but I really doubt we have five starting elims +Conversion

[Mystfall He/Him]

1 minute ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Hmm

I'd say trust yourself a little more. Be more confident in your gut. We've all been responsible for voting the wrong people out. I'd rather ride or die an elim than waver and do nothing because I'm indecisive

I'm not sure what you're saying but I really doubt we have five starting elims +Conversion

I think 5 Elims no conversion 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

1 minute ago, Jo and the Bush said:

Maybe its trolling/biased to admit this, but one of the Distros I spent a long time trying to balance was 3 Elims. A Mavset-im/Highguard, a Royal/Highguard, and a Banker/Highguard. I decided it was too swingy, no matter what I gave or denied the village.

 

When I Co-GMed with Twin, I considered doing one starting elim plus two conversions but he vetoed 

1 minute ago, Mystfall said:

I think 5 Elims no conversion 

There is 100% a mavset-im pal

*.*.*.*

Alright I like the direction this is going in

We've got a main train with three votes (Mint) to stimulate discussion, a backup train of Myst (sorry pal I won't join it but it's there), and lots of time for more options to pop up

[Mystfall He/Him]

3 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

When I Co-GMed with Twin, I considered doing one starting elim plus two conversions but he vetoed 

And yet both of us still died C1

[Illwei]

7 minutes ago, Jo and the Bush said:

Maybe its trolling/biased to admit this, but one of the Distros I spent a long time trying to balance was 3 Elims. A Mavset-im/Highguard, a Royal/Highguard, and a Banker/Highguard. I decided it was too swingy, no matter what I gave or denied the village.

Run it back (pretend i posted this post game) 

34 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Okay yeah I see that, don't know if it would merit a village read in my book though seems like low hanging fruit

What exactly does Low Hanging Fruit mean to you in this context? 

 

After reading the Harry Potter MR my read on Ink has not changed. Activity promised from them aside, they're still a new Elim to a degree if they were to rand it. My points earlier haven't changed based on the fact that their posting was immediately engaged. 

My one hesitation is their comment about not voting yet, as that's kinda- eh. But They're still on my not gonna kill list for today. 

[WhimsyIsTheBestShard]

Why am I not in the vote counts? I voted Myst

[Mystfall He/Him]

7 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

There is 100% a mavset-im pal

*.*.*.*

Alright I like the direction this is going in

We've got a main train with three votes (Mint) to stimulate discussion, a backup train of Myst (sorry pal I won't join it but it's there), and lots of time for more options to pop up

Having 1 mavset Elim is worse than just 2 Elims but alright

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

Saints, all fighting destiny, all warring fate, their belief in heroes.

Heroes in belief, their fate warring all, destiny, fighting all.

Sinners.

...

Tshanin's first true council meeting was not going the way he'd expected it to. To begin with, Councilor #6 - none of the others seemed to use her name - had taken the sixth chair right out of Tshanin's hands while Dvalk had gone to the restroom. Unsure what to do next, Tshanin had simply quickly shifted to the next seat over before the announcements had begun. Thankfully, no others seemed to pay him any mind.

It seemed disrespect was common in this forum.

When Teej pushed the agenda off his table, Tshanin had blinked rapidly in confusion. And then, when he began to speak of Odium's offer, his confusion had rapidly turned to concern. What? He hadn't checked his desk this morning. Should he have? Despite the horror of the event, Tshanin's stomach roiled with the thought that he'd done something wrong.

Even in this, he stood out.

And in his thoughts, he missed as all the others got up and began to discuss. They formed clumps quickly, and Tshanin stood awkwardly for a bit, unsure what to do. Eventually, he turned to the councilor next to him.

"Umm, excuse me..." ...Councilor number 6? No, that didn't sound right. "Ma'am." He took a second to recompose himself. "Would you happen to have a copy of the offer Councilor Teej referenced? I don't believe I received one, and I would like to read it over."

@Illwei

5 minutes ago, WhimsyIsTheBestShard said:

Why am I not in the vote counts? I voted Myst

Snappers

5 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

Having 1 mavset Elim is worse than just 2 Elims but alright

Who said the distro is optimal

Having five elims is also worse than having six, but we aren't considering that

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

What exactly does Low Hanging Fruit mean to you in this context? 

The low hanging fruit in question is me and Myst having the ability to somewhat impact our roles. As far as suspicions go, it's as neutral as one can get: nothing to do with our in game behavior, no vibes to argue. Of all the pokes an elim could make at this point in the game that is arguably the easiest and safest, except for maybe TUC.

 

[The Unknown Character he/him]

29 minutes ago, TwinStorm said:

thats the same way I've done distros in the past, so I think theres a good chance we can use deduction to make some elim role claims

from the briefest glance at the roles 

assuming 4 elims

1 Mavset-Im (pretty much given atp)

1 Royal Family (im assuming this would have to balance out with a v/royal family)

1 Banker?? (idk abt this one, seems like it would pair well with the Mavset-Im)

and prolly a vanilla

plus a highguard thrown up there somewhere, I dont think it makes sense for an entirely village doc and we're being way too optimistic to assume theres not

these are just my first random jumbled thoughts lol idk anything honestly

I'd guess swap the Banker for a vanilla highguard, but that's a solid guess otherwise 

22 minutes ago, Jo and the Bush said:

Maybe its trolling/biased to admit this, but one of the Distros I spent a long time trying to balance was 3 Elims. A Mavset-im/Highguard, a Royal/Highguard, and a Banker/Highguard. I decided it was too swingy, no matter what I gave or denied the village.

 

Nice of you to cover for the Elims by pretending you didn't pick that distro

9 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

Having 1 mavset Elim is worse than just 2 Elims but alright

General rule of thumb is 20-25% of the player count. For 20 players, that's exactly 4-5, which conveniently is essentially exactly what 4 with a Mavset-elim (I'm way too proud of that pun) adds up to

Edit: I know this is kinda asking a lot, but those of you who are roleplay only, could you somehow demarcate Roleplay only posts from posts in character? This is purely a personal request so feel free not to, but I very well might not notice in character analysis otherwise 

Edited 9 hours ago by The Unknown Character

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Quote

@Jo and the Bush? @Cuendillar? Can a Depo announcement be retracted? 

Excellent Question! NO.

also, Y'all PM a lot. if you have a question for me, please ask it in either tmyour GM PM or the thread. 7 times out of 10, if its in one of the player - player pms, i will miss it.

Quote

Can the Banker Self Target?

Yup.

Quote

Wait, if the Royal makes the Banker take a day action  how many votes get canceled?

Depends. If the Banker was already using their action to cancel votes, they will cancel as many votes as they said they would. If they were not taking that action  they will only cancel 1 vote and remain anonymous.

 

[Illwei]

Also, in response to the earlier talk about a convert role being worse than another elim? It's honestly not worse, but it is kinda completely different. It means that every cycle you as a Villager have to re-eval your reads and make sure you still believe in them because your top village read from cycle 1 or 2 or 3 could be an Elim now, if they didn't manage to keep their loyalty high. 

Which is, as I said before, important to keep your loyalty high.

EDIT: 

@Hoid Slayer

If you're trying to throw an RP to me then I'm sorry but I'm not quite capable of RPing with other people. Not really comfortable with trying to understand the parameters or what other people are trying to throw my way. 

--In reference to the LHF, that makes sense. It read to me as you thinking the village read was LHF, which didn't make much sense. 

I do think that it's an easy thing to vote someone for, but my focus is more on the attitude rather than the content. I'm never going to unvote someone or find them because they have a sound argument for why they are placing a vote or why someone else is an Elim, but rather /how/ they answer. 

To me Asriel answered eh pretty well. Not saying the reasoning is valid, since I don't believe in it (If you read my posts)

If that makes sense. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Illwei

[Mystfall He/Him]

1 hour ago, Hoid Slayer said:

I would assume he chose before, just because I had to choose before, and Myst probably did as well, but I can't be sure about that

That's concerning

I agree with all this

Kinda crazy how Illwei said she'd go light this game and proceeded to produce the longest post so far

I'm gonna say right now that I assure you Jo did not let me pick mavset-im. He gave me three options for roles, and they were all alignment-ambiguous.

You can not believe me if you want, but recall I wasn't sure of my alignment at the start of this cycle despite getting my boon 24 hours ago

Mint can you clarify what you're saying about the Parliamentarian here cause I'm confused

Woah woah woah there

I like that guy

Yeah I like this guy

Chat I think that actually makes Myst look better if anything

Okay maybe not but

I think anyone in his place would rig the odds for mavset-im, and what is a villager without honesty

Hoid legitimately considered turning down the boon for the possiblity of randing mavset-im, then remembered his standing with the gods of Chance and Fate and decided to go with the safe option

Why

Why

Me too pal

Lowkey that would be crazy to get away with

Yeah @Mat you ready to come back and explain that

I will confirm I am not vanilla

Well this is funny I was just gonna do that. Curious about your reasoning though

Oh yeah that makes sense

I agree with all this, and admit I have not been studious with the ruleset, but I don't think we should fall into the trap of disregarding loyalty entirely either

Cause the elims certainly won't, and if we just let them grind us down, they will succeed

...

Yayyy I'm finally caught up I'mma post some notes I've been taking here

...

Random notes:

People who have practically just RPed (please yap more)

KeyFox

KSauce

Wahr (to an extent, has also made some game related comments)

Whimsy

Grub

Asriel? Idk just saw an RP post, maybe not

Reads

Illwei - light village. I like the move on Asriel

TUC - light village. Don't know if he'd be playing this boldly as an elim, very stubborn

Wahr - used Mint's post to get into Deposition discussion, doubled down on it. 

Mint - light elim. Vibes. To be more specific, here seems to get a dose of validation from Wahr that elims crave. I also can't consistently understand her so that might be influencing me. Also didn't like that vote on Myst, especially when Myst already had (two?) votes

Myst - neutral. Could lean either way. Don't wanna kill him though, I hope he's elim and living his best life without me. I don't know what to think about him telling people to scan him, inclined to believe he at least ain't mavset-im though cause that's a risky gambit there could 100% be people here who would actually scan him for that

Ink and Embers - light light light elim for this post. Shoot I just realized those links don't work like I thought they did. Well scroll down deal with it I don't want bulky quotes. Just seems like they went for the two most obvious, easy to blame targets.

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that

@Araris Valerian my vote isn't on you anymore but wanna weigh in on what's going on?

Oh and Archer I must say I don't think I've seen much of you either besides VCs

Aren't all actions always taken at night?

Something I wanted to say earlier but I had to do all my boon stuff before I got my role/alignment. So I also assume Twin had to as well.

I am also not vanilla btw

[TwinStorm He/Him]

7 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

Something I wanted to say earlier but I had to do all my boon stuff before I got my role/alignment. So I also assume Twin had to as well.

I am also not vanilla btw

actually no, all I did was determine my loyalty in my GMPM post PMs being sent out

[WhimsyIsTheBestShard]

@TwinStorm What is your loyalty? I see no reason to hide it, or minimal reason

[Illwei]

I wouldn't publicly announce loyalty. Direction will be shown during the deposition tonight. 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

36 minutes ago, The Unknown Character said:

Mavset-elim (I'm way too proud of that pun)

Considering how long it took me to realize it - yes, you are

37 minutes ago, The Unknown Character said:

Edit: I know this is kinda asking a lot, but those of you who are roleplay only, could you somehow demarcate Roleplay only posts from posts in character? This is purely a personal request so feel free not to, but I very well might not notice in character analysis otherwise 

Second this

I think italics is standard, I prefer bolding cause it stands out more, and I've also seen people use certain colors for RP

37 minutes ago, Illwei said:

--In reference to the LHF, that makes sense. It read to me as you thinking the village read was LHF, which didn't make much sense. 

Ahh yeah that makes sense

2 minutes ago, WhimsyIsTheBestShard said:

@TwinStorm What is your loyalty? I see no reason to hide it, or minimal reason

I actually don't know what to think of this

I guess the reason we don't all massclaim loyalty is to not give things away to the elims, and also to not implicate our roles (like - someone uses an action that requires negative loyalty, we know they're in the pool with negative loyalty)

But if he's village, Twin is bound to have given himself lots of loyalty and the elims already know that

Actually, Twin, I'd say don't reveal it

Just now, Illwei said:

I wouldn't publicly announce loyalty. Direction will be shown during the deposition tonight. 

I'm still not in favor of that