To Kill a Herald

[Trusk'our he/him]

Your mission:

Spoiler

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

[Usseewa ✾ She♡Her ✾]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Your mission:

  Hide contents

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

Is this an RP or something? I like the intro, but...

Spoiler

can't you just use a Raysium knife?

Edit: I know that's not really a "plan," just the method.

 

Edit again: looks like @Frustration showed the flaw in that.

Edited January 16 by Theory

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Your mission:

  Hide contents

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

When are we to assume this is? 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

52 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Your mission:

  Hide contents

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

Grab that knife thing and trap the herald until it dies

[Frustration]

52 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Grab that knife thing and trap the herald until it dies

Given that only worked because Jezrien was out of his mind drunk, and how Heralds calling on the powers of Roshar can move at speeds comparable to steelrunners, I don't think that's going to work.

I mean just look at Ishar, he took on five Windrunners trained by Kaladin at once and beat all of them, and he was merely average.

Edited January 16 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Realistically? Better hope Kelsier can replicate the Bands of Mourning. At the very least you’d need steel compounding to keep up. Either that or an army with aluminum bullets and enough knowledge of hemalurgy to see them as spikes. Although pure aluminum bullets would probably not work as such, now that I think of it. Perhaps you could have just a core of aluminum?

[Jult]

Based on Kalak's description of Jezrien's death, I'm not sure a Raysium dagger would still kill a Herald. It seems like the weakening of the original Oathpact was also a factor in Jezrien's death.

RoW Epigraphs 90-93:

Spoiler

Quote

"Regardless, I write now. Because I know they are coming for me. They got Jezrien. They’ll inevitably claim me, even here in the honorspren stronghold."
"And so, I’ll die. Yes, die. If you’re reading this and wondering what went wrong—why my soul evaporated soon after being claimed by the gemstone in your knife—then I name you idiot for playing with powers you only presume to understand."
"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."
"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last. I should welcome the same. I do not. I fear you."

Unclear to me if the new Oathpact is strong enough to prevent a similar death. If it is, then well.. you'd have to figure out how to break the new Oathpact first.

I think your better option may be to keep them trapped, but also permanently alive (since they'd just respawn on death). Maybe some mechanism similar to how Hoid trapped himself on Komashi?

[Usseewa ✾ She♡Her ✾]

Just realized...is the title of this thread a reference?

Spoiler

To Kill a Mockingbird

 

[Shatter He/Him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Your mission:

  Hide contents

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

raysium grenade would be a good method. or a raysium bullet.

[therunner he/him]

Assuming new Oathpact is holding them together as @Jult pointed out, the Ghostblood have to:

1. Get Nigthblood
   • It is likely the only thing capable of killing even Heralds
   • Anti-Investiture might work, but you would need far larger quantities, if it would work at all.
2. Figure out a way to actually hit Herald
   • This is where they likely find out they cannot do it. Insensate Taln casually catches darts out of air and moves like on F-Steel, Nale when trying just a bit moves like Atium + F-steel, Ishar is chapter for himself, Kaladin showed atium-like powers before he even became Herald.
   • Likely best bet is to simply overwhelm them, throwing enough bodies at the Herald to distract them, and then strike. But that is beyond Ghostblood capabilities from what we have seen.
3. ??? Profit

 

TL;DR: I don't think it is doable with just Ghostblood resources. They simply don't have anyway to reliably kill someone who is TLR-level in capabilies, and Heralds don't have the weakness Rashek did.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I mean, can’t you just poke them with enough anti-Light that they die? 

[Frustration]

I'll make as close to a full analysis as I believe possible.

1. Objective: Kill or at least incapacitate a Herald

2. Problems

Spoiler

A. Physical capabilities: Heralds have been shown to have strength comparable with duralumin-pewter as a default, and speed easily comparable with F-steel. And unfortunately for anyone who wants to fight them, both Nale and Taln demonstrated that these powers do not require resources, they simply can do it. Likewise they have perfect health, immunity to disease, and so much more. And as icing on the cake, if you kill them, they come back.

B. Surgebinding capabilities: Heralds with one notable exception have thousands of years of experience with surges, and can do insane things with that power. Not to mention experience fighting other invested individuals. Even Kaladin, who is by far the least experienced of them was easily an army unto himself before he became a Herald.

C. Resources: All Heralds have at least their honorblade, with two others also possessing shardplate on top of that, not to mention whatever weird powers Ishar has left over from the Well of Control.

D. Weaknesses: The Heralds suffer from spiritual ailments, that theoretically could be used against them. However given what we know, there isn't a huge opportunity to exploit this weakness.

Given the strength of the Heralds I would give them 7-9/10 odds against Rashek, depending on which one.

 

Now how do you deal with that?

3. Strategies:

I recommend ignoring killing them altogether and focus on capture or incapacitation. Anti-light will not solve our issues, as Taln showed us Heralds are more than capable of catching projectiles, and the absolute last thing you want to do is get in a physical altercation with them.

So what can we do? We need the ability to act from a distance, with enough overwhelming power that even Heralds would be hard pressed to escape. There are only a handful of powers in the comere capable of such feats, but the ghostbloods have shown they have one.

The first thing we do in this situation, is recruit Shai.

Shai with her new soulstamp is capable of making herself an Elantrian, which is one of our main focuses. However it won't be enough, we give her a unit of unkeyed Dor, but we have to make sure she can act before the Heralds can. Our next goal is to get a medallion for F-steel, and f-Zinc, both of which will be crucial for this operation.

When fully prepared Shai will be an Elantrian capable of moving at high speeds and thinking even faster. However this still will not be enough, we need the element of surprise. The final piece of the puzzle, is to recruit an enlightened inkspren from Sja-anat.

With this we will wait in the CR until our desired time, before quickly jumping over and executing a pre-written aon command, aiming to take the Herald out before anything happens.

Even with all of this, pray the Herald isn't Kalak, Batar, Ash, or Ishar, or they might see you coming.

Which is a lot of preparation for only a 6/10 success rate.

[Returned he/him]

Fiddle with the Herald's memories (Vasher-style, Odium-style might not be available) so that they don't understand how to return from Braize. Then take the Herald out in a more conventional way (lots of bodies, trap them in an oxygen-less environment, something like that) and enjoy your respite from their presence. Or, if we are assuming we can fiddle with their minds like this, just alter them into beings that won't bother you. Maybe continue to damage them in the hopes that they wind up like Jezrien, shattered beyond further interest in doing things?

Maybe there's a leeching angle that could be taken? Awakened metalminds that drain Investiture (possibly as a follow-up to similar constructions that drain other attributes, making the Herald less devastatingly overpowered) might be capable of doing something. Cognitive shadows are basically Investiture in a specific form, so draining it away might be somehow equivalent to damaging a primarily physical being's body.

Use whatever specific tricks Kelsier has learned to hemalurgically staple their Investiture into a physical body might address some of their super-poweredness, at least compared to their spontaneously regenerating bodies when they return from Braize the typical way. They're so highly Invested that I don't know how helpful that could be even under the most favorable setup.

These all seem like bad plans to me. But directly opposing a Herald is fundamentally a pretty desperate situation.

[therunner he/him]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shai with her new soulstamp is capable of making herself an Elantrian, which is one of our main focuses. However it won't be enough, we give her a unit of unkeyed Dor, but we have to make sure she can act before the Heralds can. Our next goal is to get a medallion for F-steel, and f-Zinc, both of which will be crucial for this operation.

When fully prepared Shai will be an Elantrian capable of moving at high speeds and thinking even faster. However this still will not be enough, we need the element of surprise. The final piece of the puzzle, is to recruit an enlightened inkspren from Sja-anat.

With this we will wait in the CR until our desired time, before quickly jumping over and executing a pre-written aon command, aiming to take the Herald out before anything happens.

Wasn't a problem with the Elantrian stamp that it basically overwrote Shais personality, so among other things so she no longer saw herself as Ghostblood?
If so, this might not be workable. 

Additionally, this still doesn't address how would Elantrian take out a Herald.

17 minutes ago, Returned said:

Fiddle with the Herald's memories (Vasher-style, Odium-style might not be available) so that they don't understand how to return from Braize. 

I think they are sufficiently Invested that you cannot fiddle with their minds like that. 
Or what did you mean by Vasher-style memory fiddling?
 

Quote

Use whatever specific tricks Kelsier has learned to hemalurgically staple their Investiture into a physical body might address some of their super-poweredness, at least compared to their spontaneously regenerating bodies when they return from Braize the typical way. They're so highly Invested that I don't know how helpful that could be even under the most favorable setup.

Their bodies are their physical bodies, and I don't think the hemalurgic stapling would overcome the Oathpact anyway.

 

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

Wasn't a problem with the Elantrian stamp that it basically overwrote Shais personality, so among other things so she no longer saw herself as Ghostblood?
If so, this might not be workable.

I didn't say it was without risk, and that is a huge issue. It's just the best thing I can possibly think of.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additionally, this still doesn't address how would Elantrian take out a Herald.

Well the Sorceress was capable of taking out Hoid, so they could do that.

[Returned he/him]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think they are sufficiently Invested that you cannot fiddle with their minds like that. 
Or what did you mean by Vasher-style memory fiddling?

Vasher demonstrates that he knows a Command which can alter memories in Warbreaker (I think that's where he shows it, he removes a bad memory from a young girl somewhere in one of the books). I have no idea about any of the specific mechanics nor if it would even maybe work on a Herald. We already know that the Heralds' great age and supernatural state causes problems with their minds, and we have WoBs about Hoid's need to manage his memories using Breath. Taravangian excised pieces of that memory repeatedly, altering pure Investiture, so maybe the degree of Investiture isn't enough to protect against this sort of manipulation. I doubt the Ghostbloods have that level of knowledge, skill, or capacity though-- we've only seen a Shard do it, and it surprised even Hoid.

Scadrians also might have access to unique abilities that could accomplish this, maybe an Awakened coppermind that can just extract information. We don't really know anything about what Awakened metalminds can do. Maybe feruchemical duralumin could mess with their powers? Not permanently, I don't think, like memory modification could be.

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Their bodies are their physical bodies, and I don't think the hemalurgic stapling would overcome the Oathpact anyway.

I'd meant post-death, when the physical body is destroyed again. I think that the returning from death is the most pernicious aspect of opposing the Heralds. It's already unreasonably difficult to deal with them in the flesh, but when death is more of a delaying inconvenience for them the effort of killing one is even less worthwhile. Spiking the cognitive shadow to a different physical form might potentially interfere with re-corporealizing into another iteration of their real bodies, which may or may not limit their abilities.

Again, I don't think any of these are amazing plans. If Kelsier charged me with this task I would try my best but would be prepared to be killed for failing, whether by Kelsier or the Herald.

[therunner he/him]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well the Sorceress was capable of taking out Hoid, so they could do that.

Hoid let himself be cursed, so that he could become an Elantrian. 
I doubt that Herald will just let you do that to them.

Plus Hoid is nowhere near Heralds, except in healing.

4 minutes ago, Returned said:

Vasher demonstrates that he knows a Command which can alter memories in Warbreaker (I think that's where he shows it, he removes a bad memory from a young girl somewhere in one of the books). I have no idea about any of the specific mechanics nor if it would even maybe work on a Herald. 

I don't think he can do that forcibly to someone Invested, if he could he would have saved himself a lot of trouble with Denth.
Or in many other situations.

Plus I doubt Ghostbloods would have anyway of knowing such commands are possible, since it seems even out of Five Scholars only Vasher knows about them.
And since last we have seen him, Scadrian kidnapped and tortured him, I don't think he would be inclined to help.

6 minutes ago, Returned said:

Scadrians also might have access to unique abilities that could accomplish this, maybe an Awakened coppermind that can just extract information. We don't really know anything about what Awakened metalminds can do. Maybe feruchemical duralumin could mess with their powers? Not permanently, I don't think, like memory modification could be.

Awakened metalminds don't really exist yet (Era 2) no? 

Or if we are talking Era 4, I don't think we know enough about either the technology or Heralds abilites/status to say.

Quote

I'd meant post-death, when the physical body is destroyed again. I think that the returning from death is the most pernicious aspect of opposing the Heralds. It's already unreasonably difficult to deal with them in the flesh, but when death is more of a delaying inconvenience for them the effort of killing one is even less worthwhile. Spiking the cognitive shadow to a different physical form might potentially interfere with re-corporealizing into another iteration of their real bodies, which may or may not limit their abilities.

Well if you spiked them into a body like that, they could just kill the body to get out, and then reform their body no?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hoid let himself be cursed, so that he could become an Elantrian. 
I doubt that Herald will just let you do that to them.

The first time he did, but he also admits at the end that Riina could possibly have cursed him again, even with him being an Elantrian himself at that point.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Plus Hoid is nowhere near Heralds, except in healing.

Which is part of why I said to have the aons pre-written

Edited January 16 by Frustration

[Returned he/him]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think he can do that forcibly to someone Invested, if he could he would have saved himself a lot of trouble with Denth.
Or in many other situations.

Plus I doubt Ghostbloods would have anyway of knowing such commands are possible, since it seems even out of Five Scholars only Vasher knows about them.
And since last we have seen him, Scadrian kidnapped and tortured him, I don't think he would be inclined to help.

I brought up the Command not as a suggestion of what the Ghostbloods would do here but rather as evidence that memories can be altered: 1. by a person other than the one whose memory will be altered; 2. without the specific cooperation or consent of the one being altered; and 3. selectively and precisely (though not necessarily with the precision needed for this task). I don't think that Vasher was interested in hurting or maiming Denth, if he could avoid it, so I doubt he would have been motivated to do this to him, but that's tangential.

We've learned that most things one magic system can do, another can also do, so it strongly suggests that something like a coppermind could accomplish this (all else being equal). Whether or not it could be deployed in this situation is an open question, and the big sticking point would be another person having the powers, skill, and knowledge to impose this on the Herald. Some hemalurgic monster or team of medallion-holders might be able to rig something together with a combination of metallic arts. Even if memory modification isn't the right tack I still think that attacking the Herald's mind is by far the most likely avenue to succeed-- memory just happens to be the part of that I think the Scadrians are most likely to know how to work with.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Awakened metalminds don't really exist yet (Era 2) no? 

Or if we are talking Era 4, I don't think we know enough about either the technology or Heralds abilites/status to say.

We weren't limited to a particular era in the OP and so the era 2 timing seems like an unfair restriction to impose. If nothing else, a Herald coming to Roshar implies era 4 because that is the only time when someone so Invested and Connected to Roshar is known to be able to leave it like this. Also, the narrative setup specifically mentions an Awakened bronzemind being present, so they are necessarily available. I brought up the Awakened metalmind specifically because it suggests as-yet unknown possibilities (ill-defined, as you are right to point out) but, more importantly because it would help with the coordination-of-powers problem such a task would require, absent a Fullborn.

We're not talking about an airtight plan that will definitely work, we're talking about what efforts the Ghostbloods might be able to apply to accomplish a nearly unapproachable task. It's "what's your best shot", and like I said any agent should be expecting to fail at this.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well if you spiked them into a body like that, they could just kill the body to get out, and then reform their body no?

No. Not if it's appropriately prepared. Quadriplegic, truncated, permanently/continuously sedated, whatever. Anything you can maintain to keep the Herald locked down. If you just stick it into some random body then yes, you have accomplished nothing in exchange for extreme risk.

Edited January 16 by Returned

[Cosmer]

How well would a duralumin riot/soothing work on a Herald…? Play off their mental fragility and hope to incapacitate them that way for a time. Well documented weakness! Kind of OP so this has to be the flaw.

 

then move on to capture 

[Immortal Platypus]

50 minutes ago, Cosmer said:

How well would a duralumin riot/soothing work on a Herald…? Play off their mental fragility and hope to incapacitate them that way for a time. Well documented weakness! Kind of OP so this has to be the flaw.

 

then move on to capture 

I was thinking the exact same idea. Bonus points if you could put some hemalurgic spikes in them beforehand and take control of them like a koloss/kandra. Then you have a Herald on your side. It would be really hard to get the spikes in though. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Cosmer said:

How well would a duralumin riot/soothing work on a Herald…? Play off their mental fragility and hope to incapacitate them that way for a time. Well documented weakness! Kind of OP so this has to be the flaw.

 

then move on to capture 

They honestly might be invested enough to be immune.

 

If not, probably would work like a much weaker version of what Ishar did to Kaladin and Nale

[Immortal Platypus]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If not, probably would work like a much weaker version of what Ishar did to Kaladin and Nale

Even if it's weaker, I'd think it would be enough to temporarily stun them. Then you have to pelt them with Anti-Light, aluminum, spikes, etc. pretty much anything we even think could hurt them.

[Trusk'our he/him]

Great Scadrian waffle cook, this thread was way more popular than I was expecting. Maybe I should do this sort of thing more often.

7 hours ago, Theory said:

Is this an RP or something? I like the intro, but...

Not really, I was just trying to come up with a story beat that could be used to flesh out the specifics of the scenario more, but I'm not very good at it and was impatient, so I posted before I added too much detail.

6 hours ago, Theory said:

Just realized...is the title of this thread a reference?

  Hide contents

To Kill a Mockingbird

No, sorry. It was just an idea I've had half baked in my brain for a while now. Basically, what if you had to find a way to kill a Herald, Kelsier style? What, specifically, would you plan to make the most of it?

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Awakened metalminds don't really exist yet (Era 2) no? 

Or if we are talking Era 4, I don't think we know enough about either the technology or Heralds abilites/status to say.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

We weren't limited to a particular era in the OP and so the era 2 timing seems like an unfair restriction to impose.

I hadn't fully settled on which Era to impose, but I'm thinking around Era 3 is good, maybe right before. Enough time for a Herald to be corrupted or otherwise turned by Taravangian. And, they have their Honorblades and Oathpact back.

I was also initially thinking you'd have to travel to Roshar to eliminate them, but I don't think that's strictly necessary if plans can be made for taking them out of Scadrial since they are planning on assaulting that planet anyway.

I'll probably have to polish up the into some more.

Edited January 17 by Trusk'our

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Even if it's weaker, I'd think it would be enough to temporarily stun them. Then you have to pelt them with Anti-Light, aluminum, spikes, etc. pretty much anything we even think could hurt them.

I think Taln shows why that would not work. He's basically incapacitated 99% of the time, and can still obliterate armies if they look at him the wrong way.