To Kill a Herald

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Getting rid of one of the Heralds is going to mess up the new Oathpact, and that's going to mess up everything, so I can only assume that I get to go full Sanderson Villain here.

Oh, ohhoho.-takes off Aliroz hat, puts on Evilroz hat-

Spoiler

If they're sending evil me, then this isn't about preventing anything that's already inevitable, no, sending evil me means this is about spite.  This is about making it hurt.  If they're sending evil me to Roshar of all worlds, against them of all people, with all of the ghostbloods' resources, letting me make the plans, then this is about building a funeral pyre and seeing how many can burn in it.

First, we poison all the wells near Urithiru.  I'm sure Scadrial's factories produce some wonderful runoff which would adequately suit this purpose.  

Then, we start dynamiting around Urithiru.  Even though this obviously won't destroy or collapse the tower, it will be most distressing for whatever Heralds aren't insane.  If they don't give up their colleague, we start giving secrets to agents of Retribution (since Scadrial's doomed anyways, the only choice is who does it, and since I'm going after a Herald the choice has obviously been made to be wrecked by Retribution rather than his enemies--indeed, if Retribution succeeds enough, then the pyre can consume the entire Cosmere).

Also we vandalize the tower with graffiti pointing out that Cultivation abandoned Roshar and thus abandoned The Sibling. This isn't necessary, it's just petty, but the more we can do to cause chaos, the better.

Assuming we can use the six months to gather resources and get people into position, it shouldn't take very long to get to the point that someone points us at the right target just to make us stop messing with all these wrong targets.  During all this wickedness, we try to track down and steal Nightblood.

Once we get to that point, nine raysium bullets with little jewels on the back should at least do something interesting.  Maybe they'll break off pieces of the soul.  It's probably not good for you to have such things inside of you for any length of time.  If it doesn't work, we'll have to put up with some clever one-liner about how it was never going to work, but that's worth it because it sets up a rug-pull moment when we reveal Nightblood and make the target feel true fear.  Then, whoever's got the best voice among us starts monologuing about how this is absolutely what Kelsier and Harmony wanted and this is unquestionably what is best for Scadrial.

Spoilered for gratuitously heinous and impractical evil plan that ends up not having anything to do with actually getting rid of a Herald but is probably what would happen if mister Sanderson wrote a story about the ghostbloods attempting such an endeavor.

After that, it's still impossible because, at that point, we're at the end of the story, we're the villains, and it's time for us to get our comeuppance and realize that our noble intentions have lead us to become monsters.  Dang it.  Looks like we're going to have to go totally off the rails and seek the other kind of chaos.

-takes off Evilroz hat, puts on Whimsyroz hat-

Oh!  This is going to be fun.  First, we win Nightblood in a high-stakes game of tower.  Then we use Nightblood on the Herald, all sneaky-like, like we're playing hide-and-seek but with pokey metals!

As for how we're going to apply "sword" to "undefeatable immortal god-being of legend", it's probably going to require some stuff with time bubbles, several dozen Leechers, maybe a jar or two of that canned Investiture stuff, a garden rake, a trebuchet, a chancla made of aluminum, absurd amounts of coyote pee, enough sedatives to make the Lord Ruler say "what the heck do you need this much of this for?", and the stick that is a stick.

Edited January 17 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Nitpicking]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Plus Hoid is nowhere near Heralds, except in healing.

Hoid is a Dawnshard, possibly. Four of those killed Adonalsium.  

Edited January 17 by Nitpicking
autocorrect

[Cosmer]

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I was thinking the exact same idea. Bonus points if you could put some hemalurgic spikes in them beforehand and take control of them like a koloss/kandra. Then you have a Herald on your side. It would be really hard to get the spikes in though. 

I don’t hate the hemalurgy idea…they are BROKEN individuals; surely susceptible even with how highly invested they are (maybe not “surely” but maybe). Now actually spiking them will prove tremendously difficult. No chance a physical battle goes well for you. Which is why I go back to emotional allomancy or just emotional manipulation in general to create an opening. 

Edited January 17 by Cosmer

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Getting rid of one of the Heralds is going to mess up the new Oathpact, and that's going to mess up everything, so I can only assume that I get to go full Sanderson Villain here.

Oh, ohhoho.-takes off Aliroz hat, puts on Evilroz hat-

  Reveal hidden contents

If they're sending evil me, then this isn't about preventing anything that's already inevitable, no, sending evil me means this is about spite.  This is about making it hurt.  If they're sending evil me to Roshar of all worlds, against them of all people, with all of the ghostbloods' resources, letting me make the plans, then this is about building a funeral pyre and seeing how many can burn in it.

First, we poison all the wells near Urithiru.  I'm sure Scadrial's factories produce some wonderful runoff which would adequately suit this purpose.  

Then, we start dynamiting around Urithiru.  Even though this obviously won't destroy or collapse the tower, it will be most distressing for whatever Heralds aren't insane.  If they don't give up their colleague, we start giving secrets to agents of Retribution (since Scadrial's doomed anyways, the only choice is who does it, and since I'm going after a Herald the choice has obviously been made to be wrecked by Retribution rather than his enemies--indeed, if Retribution succeeds enough, then the pyre can consume the entire Cosmere).

Also we vandalize the tower with graffiti pointing out that Cultivation abandoned Roshar and thus abandoned The Sibling. This isn't necessary, it's just petty, but the more we can do to cause chaos, the better.

Assuming we can use the six months to gather resources and get people into position, it shouldn't take very long to get to the point that someone points us at the right target just to make us stop messing with all these wrong targets.  During all this wickedness, we try to track down and steal Nightblood.

Once we get to that point, nine raysium bullets with little jewels on the back should at least do something interesting.  Maybe they'll break off pieces of the soul.  It's probably not good for you to have such things inside of you for any length of time.  If it doesn't work, we'll have to put up with some clever one-liner about how it was never going to work, but that's worth it because it sets up a rug-pull moment when we reveal Nightblood and make the target feel true fear.  Then, whoever's got the best voice among us starts monologuing about how this is absolutely what Kelsier and Harmony wanted and this is unquestionably what is best for Scadrial.

Spoilered for gratuitously heinous and impractical evil plan that ends up not having anything to do with actually getting rid of a Herald but is probably what would happen if mister Sanderson wrote a story about the ghostbloods attempting such an endeavor.

After that, it's still impossible because, at that point, we're at the end of the story, we're the villains, and it's time for us to get our comeuppance and realize that our noble intentions have lead us to become monsters.  Dang it.  Looks like we're going to have to go totally off the rails and seek the other kind of chaos.

-takes off Evilroz hat, puts on Whimsyroz hat-

Oh!  This is going to be fun.  First, we win Nightblood in a high-stakes game of tower.  Then we use Nightblood on the Herald, all sneaky-like, like we're playing hide-and-seek but with pokey metals!

As for how we're going to apply "sword" to "undefeatable immortal god-being of legend", it's probably going to require some stuff with time bubbles, several dozen Leechers, maybe a jar or two of that canned Investiture stuff, a garden rake, a trebuchet, a chancla made of aluminum, absurd amounts of coyote pee, enough sedatives to make the Lord Ruler say "what the heck do you need this much of this for?", and the stick that is a stick.

You my friend are not creating an evil plan you are creating madness and I am here for it.

[Argenti he/him]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Your mission:

  Hide contents

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

 

Alright then, any ideas?

Even with their heavily invested nature, I suspect their years of mental and spiritual abuse would lead to most of them being vulnerable to soothing/rioting. (Nale, Taln, and Ishar might be resistant) You  might need liquid dor and nicrosil or something, but it would work. As for slowing them down- Cadmium Grenade. Duh. I think that slows by a factor of 60? That's still fast, but more manageable speeds.  If you needed to go even faster, perhaps throw a Cadmium savant with a nicrosil savant and liquid dor in a metal box at them.  You can't soothe them while they're in there, but you could drop an aluminum cage around them. 

A herald can't get out of an aluminum cage.

After that... assuming the herald doesn't suicide themselves, (or even if they do) you can then stab them with a ton of anti investiture and remove their souls.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Even with their heavily invested nature, I suspect their years of mental and spiritual abuse would lead to most of them being vulnerable to soothing/rioting. (Nale, Taln, and Ishar might be resistant) You  might need liquid dor and nicrosil or something, but it would work. As for slowing them down- Cadmium Grenade. Duh. I think that slows by a factor of 60? That's still fast, but more manageable speeds.  If you needed to go even faster, perhaps throw a Cadmium savant with a nicrosil savant and liquid dor in a metal box at them.  You can't soothe them while they're in there, but you could drop an aluminum cage around them. 

A herald can't get out of an aluminum cage.

After that... assuming the herald doesn't suicide themselves, (or even if they do) you can then stab them with a ton of anti investiture and remove their souls.

You want to build an aluminum cage the size of a building around them by the time they get out of the cadmium bubble? I feel like even with dor they could still get to the edge before you were done, or kill the misting, whichever is closer to them.

[NameIess]

Alright, after further thought, here's my plan: Watch the Herald's movements, wait for them to travel through Shadesmar, then strike after they leave Roshar. I'd bring a few hundred soldiers with aluminum guns and bullets, grenade launchers, and hemalurgic spike launching crossbows. Among them would be as many metalborn as we can muster, with particular focus on aluminum mistings armed with as many charged allomantic grenades as they can carry. We set up rotary guns, throw aluminum grenades to suppress investiture, cadmium grenades to slow their response, dynamite/bendalloy grenades to kill as many as possible and cause more confusion, then open fire. Hopefully the Herald's superspeed comes from them drawing on the "powers of Roshar", and as such leaving will make them vulnerable.

Edited January 17 by NameIess

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

The first time he did, but he also admits at the end that Riina could possibly have cursed him again, even with him being an Elantrian himself at that point.

No he doesn't, he decribes how Riina would be doing risk/reward, and that she would think maybe she can curse him again, but then again maybe not. 
And then she bails, which tells us how confident she is in that.

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Which is part of why I said to have the aons pre-written

But what Aon? 

I dont mean that literally, but we have seen Elantrians with centuries of experience, and they are afraid of: 

• Dragons (Riina)
• Hoid (Riina)
• Shades (party in Secret History)

 

Heralds are certainly somewhere above Shades in dangeroussness, as well as above Hoid. 
And in neither of the cases above do Elantrians just pull out pre-prepared Aons to deal with situation, not even for Shades, and those are a known danger to Elantrians.

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I hadn't fully settled on which Era to impose, but I'm thinking around Era 3 is good, maybe right before. Enough time for a Herald to be corrupted or otherwise turned by Taravangian. And, they have their Honorblades and Oathpact back.

Era 3, ok

9 hours ago, Returned said:

I brought up the Command not as a suggestion of what the Ghostbloods would do here but rather as evidence that memories can be altered: 1. by a person other than the one whose memory will be altered; 2. without the specific cooperation or consent of the one being altered; and 3. selectively and precisely (though not necessarily with the precision needed for this task).

My problem is that outside of Vasher, no one seems to know that is possible, so Ghostbloods don't have any reason to want to try it. Even Denth (another of FIve Scholars) didn't believe Vasher it could be done.

And there is caveat to point 2: It can be done without cooperation or consent if there is a great disparity in Investiture (girl with no Breath vs Returned with hundreds of Breaths on top).

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I don't think that Vasher was interested in hurting or maiming Denth, if he could avoid it, so I doubt he would have been motivated to do this to him, but that's tangential.

Considering Vasher ends up killing Denth, and as you said he tried to avoid that, then I am quite confident if he could have forcibly changed his memories, he would have.

So either it is not possible to do forcibly, if the opponent has Returned level Investiture, or it is a delicate process that cannot be done in a life-or-death situation.

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We weren't limited to a particular era in the OP and so the era 2 timing seems like an unfair restriction to impose. If nothing else, a Herald coming to Roshar implies era 4 because that is the only time when someone so Invested and Connected to Roshar is known to be able to leave it like this. Also, the narrative setup specifically mentions an Awakened bronzemind being present, so they are necessarily available. I brought up the Awakened metalmind specifically because it suggests as-yet unknown possibilities (ill-defined, as you are right to point out) but, more importantly because it would help with the coordination-of-powers problem such a task would require, absent a Fullborn.

True, I didn't think of that. Based on what Truskour said, we should assume Era 3, or just before.

Also, Heralds can leave as of end of WAT, as can anyone else, that particular binding was undone.

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No. Not if it's appropriately prepared. Quadriplegic, truncated, permanently/continuously sedated, whatever. Anything you can maintain to keep the Herald locked down. If you just stick it into some random body then yes, you have accomplished nothing in exchange for extreme risk.

Hemalurgy is delicate art, so I am not sure you could stick someone like that on the fly in the middle of a fight with them. 

The only times Hemalurgy was done in a fight, it was always guided by Ruin. In other cases the subjects is usually sedated, or bound, and it is treated like surgery.

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

Even with their heavily invested nature, I suspect their years of mental and spiritual abuse would lead to most of them being vulnerable to soothing/rioting. (Nale, Taln, and Ishar might be resistant) You  might need liquid dor and nicrosil or something, but it would work.

Since we are talking Era 3, all of the Heralds will have undergone TherapyTM from Kaladin, the man who resisted full blast of all Herald suffering combined.
So they should be somewhat better off than earlier (Taln shoud for example be basically functional, since he will be protagonist in second half of Stormlight).
Plus them being heavily Invested any effect will be lessened. 

And finally, if it is Nale or Kaladin, they will be straight up immune thanks to Shardplate.

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

As for slowing them down- Cadmium Grenade. Duh. I think that slows by a factor of 60? That's still fast, but more manageable speeds.  If you needed to go even faster, perhaps throw a Cadmium savant with a nicrosil savant and liquid dor in a metal box at them. 

The factor is more like ~10-12x, and Heralds can move at supersonic speeds (see Taln in WAT), which would let them cross the bubble (assuming roughly 6 meter radius, which is generous) in ~0.018 second, or 0.18 second IRL. 
Even if the compression factor was 60x, Herald could still get out of the bubble in basically a second or less.

So nicrosil or something would be basically required to get compression factors that are necessary. Of course, then the Cadmium savant is in the bubble with the Herald.

The above is also ignoring any Surges they might use, or their Atium-like ability to avoid danger.

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You can't soothe them while they're in there, but you could drop an aluminum cage around them. 

Unless you also dig it in beneath them, they can escape through there.

Though Aluminum cage is probably among the easier options for capturing them at least.

3 hours ago, NameIess said:

Alright, after further thought, here's my plan: Watch the Herald's movements, wait for them to travel through Shadesmar, then strike after they leave Roshar. I'd bring a few hundred soldiers with aluminum guns and bullets, grenade launchers, and hemalurgic spike launching crossbows. Among them would be as many metalborn as we can muster, with particular focus on aluminum mistings armed with as many charged allomantic grenades as they can carry. We set up rotary guns, throw aluminum grenades to suppress investiture, cadmium grenades to slow their response, dynamite/bendalloy grenades to kill as many as possible and cause more confusion, then open fire. Hopefully the Herald's superspeed comes from them drawing on the "powers of Roshar", and as such leaving will make them vulnerable.

All of that would 'just' kill them no? 
So they would get reborn on Braize and could go again.

Edited January 17 by therunner

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

All of that would 'just' kill them no? 
So they would get reborn on Braize and could go again.

The aluminum spikes might damage their souls enough to kill them. If not, we could produce anti-light and put that in the bullets/crossbows. Perhaps throw in a few steelrunners (preferably compounders) and arm them with anti-light daggers to go in for the kill once the aluminum grenades are done. I wonder if they could armor themselves in aluminum to avoid the aluminum grenade effects. If not, then a lot of sedatives, tear gas, etc. and really pray to the Survivor that the Herald's superspeed is no good offworld. 

[therunner he/him]

8 minutes ago, NameIess said:

The aluminum spikes might damage their souls enough to kill them. If not, we could produce anti-light and put that in the bullets/crossbows.

I still don't think Hemalurgy can be done like that in a fight, so I would put more on the anti-light.

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Perhaps throw in a few steelrunners (preferably compounders) and arm them with anti-light daggers to go in for the kill once the aluminum grenades are done. I wonder if they could armor themselves in aluminum to avoid the aluminum grenade effects. 

I think there will be a problem, because between the first person throwing a grenade, there will be a few seconds where Herald can move completely out of its range with their speed. They have also have that atium-like power that seems to let them anticipate danger.

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f not, then a lot of sedatives, tear gas, etc. and really pray to the Survivor that the Herald's superspeed is no good offworld. 

Would those be effective with the Herald healing, now that Oathpact is restored?


On attack line, maybe something like a large taser/taser mine? 
Something that will incapacitate them, and prevent them from using their body. We know healing wouldn't help you with taser, and  your strength and speed would be useless once it hits you. But you still have to catch them off-guard, and that will be difficult.

Edited January 17 by therunner

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

I still don't think Hemalurgy can be done like that in a fight, so I would put more on the anti-light.

I don't see why not. You just have to aim for and hit a bindpoint with the proper intent.

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think there will be a problem, because between the first person throwing a grenade, there will be a few seconds where Herald can move completely out of its range with their speed. They have also have that atium-like power that seems to let them anticipate danger.

I doubt it was truly futuresight, more a combination of enhanced speed and millennia of combat experience.

And again, we're banking on their superspeed being a product of the powers of Roshar, which they won't be able to draw upon here. If they can, then the Steelrunners are our only chance. Hopefully Heralds can't keep up with compounding.

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Would those be effective with the Herald healing, now that Oathpact is restore

Maybe? It would cause pain, likely. Tasers would likely be a better option, although I don't believe Scadrial is advanced enough to know of them. Perhaps that is what Rannette was working on for bloodmakers.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, NameIess said:

I don't see why not. You just have to aim for and hit a bindpoint with the proper intent.

Bindpoints are miniscule, milimiter sized targets.  No one can hit those in fighting conditions reliably.

And again, the only times it was done in fighting conditions, the attacker was guided by Ruin. All other examples of hemalurgy require the subject to be restrained.

So theoretically, yes you can do it. Practically? No.

2 hours ago, NameIess said:

I doubt it was truly futuresight, more a combination of enhanced speed and millennia of combat experience.

Well, they can draw on Fortune. 

And from Kaladin PoV in WoR, it did sound atium-like, not just being enhanced speed, he didn't even exhibit that yet.

2 hours ago, NameIess said:

And again, we're banking on their superspeed being a product of the powers of Roshar, which they won't be able to draw upon here.

That is a big if, considering they draw their powers from SR, where distances don't matter. 

The only powers that are known to be limited by physical location are those of Sel, so I wouldn't bet on it.

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If they can, then the Steelrunners are our only chance. Hopefully Heralds can't keep up with compounding.

Ghostbloods likely don't have access to Compounders (Miles is the only known naturally born Compounder ever), and it cannot be done artificially, at least as far as we know.

At best, they might have one Steel compounder, if one was born at the right time, and was of the right age, and was inclined to work with Ghostbloods. 
And that compounder would still be inferior to Herald in every single other way.

And Heralds likely can keep up with Compounding, considering Taln could beat TLR. 

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Maybe? It would cause pain, likely. Tasers would likely be a better option, although I don't believe Scadrial is advanced enough to know of them. Perhaps that is what Rannette was working on for bloodmakers.

After all those decades/centuries of torture on Braize, I think Heralds have quite high pain tolerance. 

And by Era 3 Scadrial should be able to make tasers, so they could be viable.


EDIT: @Nitpicking

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Hoid is a Dawnshard, possibly. Four of those killed Adonalsium.  

Four of those + 16 other people, two of whom were dragons (Cultivation, Valor), plus the implication that Adonalsium might have let himself be killed. 

And Hoid has the one Dawnshard that doesn't have any offensive utility whatsoever, in fact it hinders him in that way. 
Sure, killing Hoid permanently is more difficult, because he will just heal from any remaining cells of his. 

But fighting Hoid? Far easier than fighting a Herald.



As to the attack methods:

1. I think Nightblood is out, as anyone trying to use it would have to beat Herald in skill, and that just won't happen.
2. Anti-Light then is the remaining option for permanently killing them, but that requires Ghostbloods to obtain Raysium.
   • The only Raysium they had is now lost in SR, so that cannot be accessed. Fused might still have some, but it was rare even when Rayse was Odium, and Taravangian explicitly will be a miser with his Investiture. So that will be a bottleneck.
   • Even if they get Raysium, how will they manage to hit Herald with it? In melee that won't be an option, ranged attacks in sufficient number might overwhelm them, but Herald's speed and fortune still present a problem. Some form of incapacitation will be necessary.
   • And finally, open question on how Oathpact and its supply of Investiture will interact with any damage done by anti-light. Heralds are far more Invested than Fused, so you will need much more anti-light than just a single gemstone likely.
3. And out-of-the-box option: Since Heralds don't seem genocidal in general, Ghostbloods could just ask other Heralds to help them stop them.
   • That is I think the easiest option, though a bit of a cop-out  

Also, this neglects that Heralds might also have some equipment available on Roshar, i.e. even regular plate armor will make attacking them with Raysium much more difficult. Or any of the assorted fabrials, such as alerters, and Heralds are aware of those since many of them existed in more primitive forms in Heraldic eras.

Edited January 17 by therunner

[alder24]

That’s probably one of the hardest tasks Kelsier could give outside of killing Hoid or a Shard. Heralds are op but they regularly died during Desolation so you can definitely get them despite their Surgebinding, skills, speed and Atium-like powers. 

You definitely need to surprise attack them as a direct frontal confrontation gives them an advantage. Sneaking into their camp with a team of assassins will be a challenge. The best thing to start the fight with is to use nicrosil enhanced emotional Allomancy specifically targeting emotions related to their madness. They may be highly invested, but their minds are broken beyond repair, providing plenty of cracks in their soul for the emotional Allomancy of that strength to stun them for a few precious moments. Then use F-steel to close the distance and strike fast. There are only a few options I can think of that would permanently neutralize a Herald:

1. Nightlood - do I even have to explain? Getting it from Szeth might be problematic, but if a Herald is insane like this, he might be willing to cooperate. 
2. Raysium dagger - either trap them permanently in a gemstone (as noted previously, the newly restored Oathpact and Honor having a Vessel will probably prevent them from fading like Jezrien did), or inject them with a big dose of anti-light to kill them. 
3. Hemalurgy - this might provide the easiest way to kill them while they are stunned. Use A-electrum or A-Atium to aid with spike placement (WoB) and then spike out their Connection to the Oathpact. With this the Connection will be fully gone, not just severely weakened like it was after Aharietiam and because the spike will most likely go through their heart, they will also die and won’t be reborn. You can also use an aluminum spike to remove all of their powers, but that won’t stop them from being reborn. Spiking out their Connection to Honor would also do the job (per Vasher's words in RoW ch 15, it's this Connection that sustains them as CS), or possibly spiking out enough raw investiture with nicrosil might turn them into a Returned-type Cognitive Shadow and their soul will simply fade into the Beyond on its own. 

Honestly this is an herculean task and while it’s definitely possible, Heralds are really, really hard to kill. Depending on how the new Oathpact is functioning and when the return is triggered, it might be easier to just kill them and let them be trapped on Braize until their next return - this might make them regain their senses and stop this foolish invasion plan, especially after a few therapy sessions with Kaladin. Killing them will be easy, just a single aluminum bullet to the head will do the job, just like dozens of other ways to kill them. But this is assuming that the Heralds cannot return to Roshar without risking some dire consequences and it seems like Fused aren’t trapped on Braize anymore by the Oathpact, so what exactly triggers their return now is unclear to me. Does their return release spren from Oathpact’s protection, thus Heralds would want to avoid it at all costs? No idea, need more information and Ghostbloods won’t be even able to find anything about it because probably only Ishar knows how it functions now. 

Btw, Elantrian Shai is programmed to grant you a wish after awakening, so if you ask her and explain how dire is your need to kill a Herald, she would assist you, which would be a huuuuuge help. She could probably do it alone given enough preparation and tools. After all, Elantrians can replicate everything that all other invested arts are capable of, including Bondsmithing (WoB) - she might be able to just remove Herald’s Connection to the Oathpact and Honor, suppress their powers and just kill them. 

[Immortal Platypus]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think Taln shows why that would not work. He's basically incapacitated 99% of the time, and can still obliterate armies if they look at him the wrong way.

yes, but I interpreted him as not being incapacitated when he actually fought back. He stopped repeating his little mantra, so I took that as a sign of him coming back mentally. if that is the case, then I think that there's a chance to do some stuff while they're somewhat incapacitated or weakened from the Riot/Soothe.

14 hours ago, Cosmer said:

I don’t hate the hemalurgy idea…they are BROKEN individuals; surely susceptible even with how highly invested they are (maybe not “surely” but maybe). Now actually spiking them will prove tremendously difficult. No chance a physical battle goes well for you. Which is why I go back to emotional allomancy or just emotional manipulation in general to create an opening. 

it would have to be done by getting very lucky with guns or something. maybe drawing on Fortune would help? IDK how that jawn works.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Bindpoints are miniscule, milimiter sized targets.  No one can hit those in fighting conditions reliably.

And again, the only times it was done in fighting conditions, the attacker was guided by Ruin. All other examples of hemalurgy require the subject to be restrained.

So theoretically, yes you can do it. Practically? No.

the answer here doesn't necessarily need to be practical. It's a herald, I don't think the Ghostbloods can "practically" kill one, especially if Nameless is wrong about either their superspeed coming from the powers of Roshar or their inability to tap into those off-world. We have to rely on more niche situations that might fail 999 times out of 1000, but succeed once.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Btw, Elantrian Shai is programmed to grant you a wish after awakening, so if you ask her and explain how dire is your need to kill a Herald, she would assist you, which would be a huuuuuge help. She could probably do it alone given enough preparation and tools. After all, Elantrians can replicate everything that all other invested arts are capable of, including Bondsmithing (WoB) - she might be able to just remove Herald’s Connection to the Oathpact and Honor, suppress their powers and just kill them. 

-puts on Evilroz hat again-

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, this changes everything.

Change of evil plans:  Don't torment The Sibling, free The Sibling.  Start freeing spren from the Nahel bond, from that horrifying mind-control share-thoughts-share-feelings-mix-souls think-you-have-free-will-but-actually-you-are-entirely-compromised-by-sympathy nightmare that is the most horrifying thing in the cosmere.  If they refuse to help after being freed, then bond them to us.  Things are gonna be way easier if we have The Sibling on our side.

Still gonna lose, because there's no way to win against Rosharans (mister Sanderson's favoritism is the strongest force in the universe), but we might make them have to confront some uncomfortable truths about how Bondsmithing works.  And putting a crack in their infinite superiority is a victory greater than I had imagined possible.

-puts on Whimsyroz hat-

Okay, so we use the wish, and wish for a gigantic banana of sanity that tastes delicious and smells good to everyone, and we give it to the grumpy Herald so he or she will be so happy and sane as to no longer want to attack Scadrial.

Edited January 17 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

inject them with a big dose of anti-light to kill them.

I don't think this is possible. The prompt says you only have access to the equipment the Ghostbloods can access in 6 months. They might not be able to get raysium and definitely are not getting anti-stormlight—something you need stormlight to manufacture (kinda hard to get rn). I agree with you, @alder24, that Hemalurgy is the best option. Get their trust and then spike out the oathpact connection (might be kinda hard to find out bindpoint, hopefully Shai can help with that)

[Frustration]

It's important to remember that Ishar said that their immortality is separate but related to the Oathpact, even taking that bond out, assuming you could do that, would probably not be enough.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 1/16/2026 at 12:44 PM, Frustration said:

Given that only worked because Jezrien was out of his mind drunk, and how Heralds calling on the powers of Roshar can move at speeds comparable to steelrunners, I don't think that's going to work.

We are going to have to fight the Herald like Ozymandias fought Dr Manhattan or Taylor fought Scion: We need to attack the psyche.

On 1/16/2026 at 5:43 PM, Cosmer said:

How well would a duralumin riot/soothing work on a Herald…?

Feels like it has only so many chances to work, but 

On 1/16/2026 at 8:53 PM, Argenti said:

A herald can't get out of an aluminum cage.

I... I don't know if that is true? One question I have about the kind of speed they all can tap is what other attributes are they able to access? They have Youth for sure, and Speed. I feel like they might have something in the genre of Pewter-like Strength. Is a Pewterarm or, worse, Pewter ferring unable to bend bars?

Also, if aluminum is the thing that kills anything, developing a high-explosive anti-tank round that can deliver molten aluminum into various kinds of targets. The bazooka-style platform is compatible with mass production.

18 hours ago, therunner said:

And out-of-the-box option: Since Heralds don't seem genocidal in general, Ghostbloods could just ask other Heralds to help them stop them.

• That is I think the easiest option, though a bit of a cop-out

Yeah, figuring out which Herald is suddenly doing this and getting relevant associates to turn on them would be a good idea. 

 

I feel like "A Herald is trying to destroy Scadrial" means that Herald has built some kind of organization which is going to either deploy large investiture weapons or implement an extermination campaign. In either case, I assume the Herald is the organizational lynch pin, but not literally the only potential target.

So my plan of attack would be to start by identifying which herald this is, finding various people, institutions, and similar emotional anchors they have, as well as the key elements of their hostile organization, and pursue a campaign of allying or destroying those without alerting the principle target. Only when the target is in some kind of emotional tilt is any direct attack to be attempted.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's important to remember that Ishar said that their immortality is separate but related to the Oathpact, even taking that bond out, assuming you could do that, would probably not be enough.

According to WoB, "immortality" can mean different things in the Cosmere. Brandon places Heralds into "reborn when killed" category. 

Spoiler

Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

@Frustration, what I suspect the separate immortality from the Oathpact is is this:

Quote

“This will start the bond,” Ishar said. “Only once it is complete can Vedel seal immortality upon us—using our Connection to Honor to tap into constantly rejuvenating Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, locking our souls at our current age.

Sanderson, Brandon. Wind and Truth: Book Five of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, 5) (p. 633). (Function). Kindle Edition. 

With a weakened Oathpact, Jezrien perished quite fast after being sucked out of his body with Raysium, showing that this other immortality, which appears to be merely freedom from aging, isn't much of an obstacle when it comes to murder. 

Quote

I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last. I should welcome the same. I do not. I fear you.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War: Book Four of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, 4) (p. 1010). (Function). Kindle Edition. 

Without connection to the Oathpact, (you might have to spike regular connection to Honor too), our hypothetical herald should perish.

 

Now let's talk about logistics. Obviously we're not beating any of the Heralds in a fight, so we must surprise them. With the new Oathpact, their minds are in the Spiritual Realm, but their bodies are in the Cognitive Realm. We know this because the Fused haven't been on Braize in the Physical Realm and they were still able to torture the Heralds.

Quote

Raboniel hummed to an amused rhythm. “No, no, Navani. You can’t travel to Braize in the Physical Realm.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War: Book Four of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, 4) (p. 983). (Function). Kindle Edition. 

Afaik, the new Oathpact doesn't bind the Fused, meaning Braize is most likely unihabited. You might need Shai's Elantrian powers to get past the "storm," but that's doable. As the Herald's mind will be in the SR, hemalurgy will be easy. You might want to tie up the target however, as stealing connection to the Oathpact might rip them back. Then it's as simple as capturing them with a raysium dagger and letting the Herald rot. (Note: this might destroy the Oathpact, so I hope you're not particularly attached to spren) (Also, destroying the Oathpact might bring all the Heralds back very angry at you, so you should use Shai's Elantrian powers to get away from Braize really fast).

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

According to WoB, "immortality" can mean different things in the Cosmere. Brandon places Heralds into "reborn when killed" category. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

@Frustration, what I suspect the separate immortality from the Oathpact is is this:

With a weakened Oathpact, Jezrien perished quite fast after being sucked out of his body with Raysium, showing that this other immortality, which appears to be merely freedom from aging, isn't much of an obstacle when it comes to murder. 

Without connection to the Oathpact, (you might have to spike regular connection to Honor too), our hypothetical herald should perish.

Yes, but when Ishar is making Kaladin a Herald he says that the Immortality is separate.

And Jezrien was still alive in WaT, as there is something there that El kills, even if it is too small for Kalak to sense.

43 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Now let's talk about logistics. Obviously we're not beating any of the Heralds in a fight, so we must surprise them. With the new Oathpact, their minds are in the Spiritual Realm, but their bodies are in the Cognitive Realm. We know this because the Fused haven't been on Braize in the Physical Realm and they were still able to torture the Heralds.

They are in the Physical Realm as Raboniel tried having Fused fly to Roshar, but they died trying.

45 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Afaik, the new Oathpact doesn't bind the Fused, meaning Braize is most likely unihabited. You might need Shai's Elantrian powers to get past the "storm," but that's doable. As the Herald's mind will be in the SR, hemalurgy will be easy. You might want to tie up the target however, as stealing connection to the Oathpact might rip them back. Then it's as simple as capturing them with a raysium dagger and letting the Herald rot. (Note: this might destroy the Oathpact, so I hope you're not particularly attached to spren) (Also, destroying the Oathpact might bring all the Heralds back very angry at you, so you should use Shai's Elantrian powers to get away from Braize really fast).

If the Herald is leading an army against Scadrial I imagine they are free from Braize.

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They are in the Physical Realm as Raboniel tried having Fused fly to Roshar, but they died trying.

The fused don’t have physical bodies on Braize, since they die to get there, and I believe Raboniel mentioned Fused trying to fly to Braize.

[Frustration]

Just now, NameIess said:

The fused don’t have physical bodies on Braize, since they die to get there, and I believe Raboniel mentioned Fused trying to fly to Braize.

The Heralds also die to get there, but they have bodies to be tortured, as the Fused must have bodies to torture them with.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Heralds also die to get there, but they have bodies to be tortured, as the Fused must have bodies to torture them with.

No, the Fused are spren on Braize. Why would Odium give them bodies there, but not on Roshar?

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, NameIess said:

No, the Fused are spren on Braize. Why would Odium give them bodies there, but not on Roshar?

You make a solid argument, my only question is who does the torturing then?

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You make a solid argument, my only question is who does the torturing then?

The Heralds are either in the cognitive realm, where spren have physical form, or spren have physical form on Braize. I’d lean toward the former, as Nale’s spren was tortured with him and it’s the simplest explanation.